Global Warming?

[Ziggy]

Aside from the record low temps in many places, and the established fact that the planet hasn't warmed any in ten years and is beginning a cooling trend, what do you all think about global warming, or climate change?

The only scenario regarding 12/21/2012 that I've heard so far that I might buy into is that while the planet crosses the galactic equator we could experience a pole shift. Is there a way to survive that? Would you want to? (Perhaps off subject, but a helluva change)

Can we do anything about climate change? Is there really enough human impact to do that? Won't nature self-correct as it always has, wiping us out in the process?

Just wondering everyone's thoughts on this....

[MCBushbaby]

the established fact that the planet hasn't warmed any in ten years and is beginning a cooling trend

Where's your sources?



The only scenario regarding 12/21/2012 that I've heard so far that I might buy into is that while the planet crosses the galactic equator we could experience a pole shift. Is there a way to survive that? Would you want to? (Perhaps off subject, but a helluva change)

Well, assuming the poles shift 180*, if you want to go north you now use the white side of the needle. South? Red.



Can we do anything about climate change? Is there really enough human impact to do that? Won't nature self-correct as it always has, wiping us out in the process?

I hope something like "the day after tomorrow" happens. It'll certainly put people back in their place. But aside from global catastrophe, if everyone just does some basic changes around the house they can seriously reduce the burden on the planet. Like switching from incandescent to florescent... or better, LED. Or recycling. Or reusing. Turning down the thermostat a couple degrees. Plastic-wrapping their windows in winter. Finally switching from coal to hydro, or solar, or wind! I could go on.

[higgy]

Nasa says there will be a solar max 12/21/2012. They have a lot of info actually.

[RunsWithDeer]

Nasa says there will be a solar max 12/21/2012. They have a lot of info actually.
Can you share the link to this info?

[higgy]

This is one of many,

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/10mar_stormwarning.html

[higgy]

Near the bottom,

"Dikpati's forecast puts Solar Max at 2012"

[trax]

Well, apparently it's time for me to start running around waving my arms in the air and screaming in a high falsetto voice. NASA said so. Or I could live with the anguish of a cellphone not working and buy better quality sunglasses. :rolleyes:

[higgy]

indulge yourself,

http://search.nasa.gov/search/search.jsp?nasaInclude=2012+solar+max&entqr=0&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&ud=1&site=nasa_collection&client=nasa_production&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&simple_start=&news_start=&images_start=&videos_start=&podcasts_start=&baynote_start=&baynoteOrGSA=baynote

[higgy]

Hi Trax, Expect the best, prepare for the worst, right?

[trax]

um, I'm more like hope for the best, expect nothing, prepare for what I can. I mean, we've had questions here about literally end of the world events, and I finally had to ask myself "if it's really the end of the world....what is there to prepare for? The only preparation in that case I think would be sincere and humble prayer"

[Sarge47]

Check out these PREVIOUS threads.:cool:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1365&highlight=Global+Warming

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4069&highlight=Global+Warming

We've sorta talked that one to death!

[higgy]

Keep yer head up Trax, Yer bumming me out. :)

[higgy]

Expect the best!

[trax]

Keep yer head up Trax, Yer bumming me out. :)

so? so what? I'm still a rock star...no wait, that's Pink. Never mind:p

[sniperfx]

there seems to be alot of chatter about the solar deal. also the mayan calender ends on 12/21/2012. also nastradaum predicted it as well. bible also makes reference to end times. probably natures way of saying chill out on my planet!!!!!

[higgy]

Like Ziggy said, our solar system oscillates up and down thru the Milkyway every 64000 years or so we travel back thru the center. I'm completely blowing smoke here. LOL

[trax]

Well, I fully intend to last until at least 2013 just so a bunch of dead Mayans can't say "we told you so" when I get to the other side

[higgy]

If the Mayans wouldn't have invented that calender, we would all be safe, damn them!

[wildWoman]

Even if we were approaching another iceage and human activity had no impact on the climate whatsoever; what's the point in using that as an argument not to thrash the planet? EDIT: don't know what misfiring of mental synapses caused me to write the opposite of what I meant! I mean of course "what's the point in using that as an argument to trash the planet?"It is human greed and stupid mindless consumerism that has led to so much pollution and extinction of many species. It is plain stupidity to have the entire world economy dependent on a non-renewable energy source, quite apart from the "carbon footprint".
It seems to me that if all "smarts" the human race thinks it possesses were applied to living within our means, avoiding and combatting pollution and the destruction of the few last wild places that remain, we'd all be better off. I'd love to have mining and oil company CEOs required to live off the waters they pollute for the rest of their lives and live right next to their tailing ponds until they die. I suspect they might see things a little different then.

[crashdive123]

....I hope something like "the day after tomorrow" happens. It'll certainly put people back in their place.

Just exactly where do you think people's place is?

[klkak]

Crash, he is one of those types that would argue with a fence post that it was in the wrong hole after he put it there in the first place.

[dbldrew]

I think that climate change is real, but NOT caused by humans, and is not driven by co2. Here is a good vid about climate change

http://www.globalwarminghoax.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.22

[crashdive123]

I think that climate change is real, but NOT caused by humans, and is not driven by co2. Here is a good vid about climate change

http://www.globalwarminghoax.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.22

I too do not believe in man-made global warming (oops - I guess climate change is the new slogan).

[trax]

Wildwoman still makes an awfully good point about the pollution.

[dbldrew]

Wildwoman still makes an awfully good point about the pollution.

Yes she does, but that is the thing that really drives me nuts with global warming caused by co2. Co2 is equally important to the survival of all life on the planet as is Oxygen. Co2 is not a pollutant, so when there is billions of dollars that could be used to help real environmental problems that instead is wasted on global warming, it’s sickening.

[klkak]

The earth gets cold. The earth gets warm. The earth is like a woman. What man needs to do is stop trying to figure it out and just accept it.

This is interesting reading about climate change.
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

[higgy]

Even if we were approaching another iceage and human activity had no impact on the climate whatsoever; what's the point in using that as an argument not to thrash the planet? It is human greed and stupid mindless consumerism that has led to so much pollution and extinction of many species. It is plain stupidity to have the entire world economy dependent on a non-renewable energy source, quite apart from the "carbon footprint".
It seems to me that if all "smarts" the human race thinks it possesses were applied to living within our means, avoiding and combatting pollution and the destruction of the few last wild places that remain, we'd all be better off. I'd love to have mining and oil company CEOs required to live off the waters they pollute for the rest of their lives and live right next to their tailing ponds until they die. I suspect they might see things a little different then.

You see what Mars looks like......that probably what the human race left behind, the last planet we crashed. Let's go fix it back up!

[trax]

The earth get cold. The earth gets warm. The earth is like a woman. What man needs to do is stop trying to figure it out and just accept it.


Um, hence the expressions "Mother Earth" and "Mother Nature"?

[MCBushbaby]

Here's another thing to raise your blood pressure: the pacific gyre garbage mass. Last I heard it was the size of Texas! A floating collection of garbage the size of frikken Texas...


Just exactly where do you think people's place is?
A little more humble to start. Less "**** it, I'm lazy, let the next generation figure it out" and more "holy crap the glaciers are gone! We better do something!"


Crash, he is one of those types that would argue with a fence post that it was in the wrong hole after he put it there in the first place.
Nah, I'd start arguing with you, who I paid to do the work but whom forgot what to do.

[klkak]

FUN FACTS about CARBON DIOXIDE

Of the 186 billion tons of CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.

At 368 parts per million CO2 is a minor constituent of earth's atmosphere-- less than 4/100ths of 1% of all gases present. Compared to former geologic times, earth's current atmosphere is CO2- impoverished.

CO2 is odorless, colorless, and tasteless. Plants absorb CO2 and emit oxygen as a waste product. Humans and animals breathe oxygen and emit CO2 as a waste product. Carbon dioxide is a nutrient, not a pollutant, and all life-- plants and animals alike-- benefit from more of it. All life on earth is carbon-based and CO2 is an essential ingredient. When plant-growers want to stimulate plant growth, they introduce more carbon dioxide.

CO2 that goes into the atmosphere does not stay there but is continually recycled by terrestrial plant life and earth's oceans-- the great retirement home for most terrestrial carbon dioxide.

If we are in a global warming crisis today, even the most aggressive and costly proposals for limiting industrial carbon dioxide emissions would have a negligible effect on global climate!

Climate change is controlled primarily by cyclical eccentricities in Earth's rotation and orbit, as well as variations in the sun's energy output.

"Greenhouse gases" in Earth's atmosphere also influence Earth's temperature, but in a much smaller way. Human additions to total greenhouse gases play a still smaller role, contributing about 0.2% - 0.3% to Earth's greenhouse effect

[crashdive123]

A little more humble to start. Less "**** it, I'm lazy, let the next generation figure it out" and more "holy crap the glaciers are gone! We better do something!"


You must be right. I mean look at what happened to Greenland. If only we would have done something.

[klkak]

Here's another thing to raise your blood pressure: the pacific gyre garbage mass. Last I heard it was the size of Texas! A floating collection of garbage the size of frikken Texas...

A little more humble to start. Less "**** it, I'm lazy, let the next generation figure it out" and more "holy crap the glaciers are gone! We better do something!"

Nah, I'd start arguing with you, who I paid to do the work but whom forgot what to do.

I have never failed to bring out every person I've guided into the Alaska back country alive. You however, I would make an exception for.:eek:

[MCBushbaby]

Greenland's on it's way. But yes, some glaciers are increasing in size...here (http://environmentallegal.blogs.com/sholzer/2006/08/glacier_size_in.html)

http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/Greenland_Melt.jpg
http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/glacier_melt3.jpg
http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/Portage%20Glacier%20Melt.jpg
http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/Pasterze%20Glacier%20Melt.jpg
http://www.stopglobalwarming.com.au/images/current_impacts/global_warming_glaciers_around_world.jpg

[Badawg]

Aside from the record low temps in many places, and the established fact that the planet hasn't warmed any in ten years and is beginning a cooling trend, what do you all think about global warming, or climate change?

....


Dude... Are you serious? Or are you just trying to pass on ignorance as 'bliss'???

I challenge you to find 5 climatologists in the world that have legitimate credentials that would agree with that statement. Global warming is a fact. There are thousands of scientists all over the globe and in every country that agree with that and have signed on. In the US though, global warming has been turned into a political football so that a few people at the top of the energy heap in in the US can continue to rape the earth and make huge profits with little to no consequence.

But in truth it should not really be called global warming, it should be called Global Wierding as things are going to be warmer everywhere. Just much weirder and in the future, much more deadly for mankind than we have grown to expect.

I would highly recommend that if you think Global warming isn't real, that you go read: http://unfccc.int/2860.php Spend a couple hours here and it may very well change the way you are thinking.

Here is what you should REALLY GET here though: If such a disparate group of scientists, politicians, and bureaucrats can take a massive amount of empirical data, and whittle it down the the statements that are now being fully supported, then the problem is really much worse than they are telling us. Why do I say that? Because every politician and bureaucrat that touched the UNFCC paperwork had to exact his/her pound of flesh from it, which means the consensus is skewed towards not making people freak out, and not making governments look culpable.

What can you do about Global warming personally? It's in your(and your kids and grandkids and their grandkids) best interest to do what you can to decrease your output where you can, mitigate what you cannot decrease, and to put pressure on all your elected officials so that they will do the same and make it economically viable.

Things I do: (not that I am special or anything, just examples of easy changes we all can make) All lights in my house except for a couple of specialty lamps are CFLs. I no longer drive my 55 mile daily commute, I use public transit. When I do drive it's not the jeep, It's a Honda Civic. Installed a solar water heater, Planted deciduous trees to shade the house in summer, and still expose it to sunlight in the winter. Whole house fan to blow hot air out before running the AC in the summer. Completely sealed the rafters with Reflectix last year(My heating bills are definitely down by 10 or 15% in the short term.)

Ok folks end rant...

[crashdive123]

Mitch - I was thinking a bit further back - before man had an impact.

From Live Science (”http://www.livescience.com/environment/070705_green_greenland.html”)


The oldest ever recovered DNA samples have been collected from under more than a mile of Greenland ice, and their analysis suggests the island was much warmer during the last Ice Age than previously thought.
The DNA is proof that sometime between 450,000 and 800,000 years ago, much of Greenland was especially green and covered in a boreal forest that was home to alder, spruce and pine trees, as well as insects such as butterflies and beetles.
From the genetic material of these organisms, the researchers infer that Greenland’s temperature once varied from 50 degrees Fahrenheit in summer to 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in winter—the temperature range that the tree species prefer.
“We have shown for the first time that southern Greenland ... was once very different to the Greenland we see today,” said study leader Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen.
Less glacial cover in ancient Greenland means the global ocean was probably between three and six feet higher during that time compared to current levels, the scientists say.
“To get this site ice free you would’ve had to remove the ice cover from about the southern third of Greenland,” study team member Martin Sharp, a glaciologist at the University of Alberta, Canada, told LiveScience.
The findings, detailed in the July 6 issue of the journal Science, demonstrate how far the young field of ancient DNA research has come: scientists can now recreate an environment’s climate and ecology using only recovered DNA, without the need for fossils that might be absent or hard to reach.
“To go from dirty water to a forest full of insects is pretty amazing,” study team member Matthew Collins, a biomolecular archaeologist at the University of York, said in a related Science news article.
Greenland’s thick ice sheets served as a perfect, natural freezer for preserving the prehistoric DNA. Older genetic samples have been found, but none in such pristine condition as the new Greenland samples.
The team says their technique could be applied to DNA found in other icy parts of the globe, such as Antarctica. “Given that 10 percent of the Earth’s terrestrial surface is covered by thick ice sheets, it could open up a world of new discoveries,” said study team member Enrico Cappellini of the University of York in the United Kingdom.
Plants still survive in Greenland today, although mostly along the island’s coast, since the interior is blanketed in ice. “There’s tundra vegetation,” Sharp said. “There’s also dwarf birch probably, and willows almost are certain. But not pine or spruce, which we have in the DNA here.”

[MCBushbaby]

Ah, news to me. :) I knew Canada and the arctic had a similar effect, I don't know why I didn't make the connection to Greenland. Well played ol' boy

So the cycle is 650,000 years give/take?

[Badawg]

Crash... We came out of the last ice age about 12000 years ago, so your data below has no bearing on this discussion. Between 455,000 and 800,000 years ago EVERYTHING was f=different and green land was not where it is now in relation to the north pole. And all that ice melting there now has been there for way longer than 12,000 years...



Mitch - I was thinking a bit further back - before man had an impact.

From Live Science (”http://www.livescience.com/environment/070705_green_greenland.html”)

The oldest ever recovered DNA samples have been collected from under more than a mile of Greenland ice, and their analysis suggests the island was much warmer during the last Ice Age than previously thought.
The DNA is proof that sometime between 450,000 and 800,000 years ago, much of Greenland was especially green and covered in a boreal forest that was home to alder, spruce and pine trees, as well as insects such as butterflies and beetles.
From the genetic material of these organisms, the researchers infer that Greenland’s temperature once varied from 50 degrees Fahrenheit in summer to 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit in winter—the temperature range that the tree species prefer.
“We have shown for the first time that southern Greenland ... was once very different to the Greenland we see today,” said study leader Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen.
Less glacial cover in ancient Greenland means the global ocean was probably between three and six feet higher during that time compared to current levels, the scientists say.
“To get this site ice free you would’ve had to remove the ice cover from about the southern third of Greenland,” study team member Martin Sharp, a glaciologist at the University of Alberta, Canada, told LiveScience.
The findings, detailed in the July 6 issue of the journal Science, demonstrate how far the young field of ancient DNA research has come: scientists can now recreate an environment’s climate and ecology using only recovered DNA, without the need for fossils that might be absent or hard to reach.
“To go from dirty water to a forest full of insects is pretty amazing,” study team member Matthew Collins, a biomolecular archaeologist at the University of York, said in a related Science news article.
Greenland’s thick ice sheets served as a perfect, natural freezer for preserving the prehistoric DNA. Older genetic samples have been found, but none in such pristine condition as the new Greenland samples.
The team says their technique could be applied to DNA found in other icy parts of the globe, such as Antarctica. “Given that 10 percent of the Earth’s terrestrial surface is covered by thick ice sheets, it could open up a world of new discoveries,” said study team member Enrico Cappellini of the University of York in the United Kingdom.
Plants still survive in Greenland today, although mostly along the island’s coast, since the interior is blanketed in ice. “There’s tundra vegetation,” Sharp said. “There’s also dwarf birch probably, and willows almost are certain. But not pine or spruce, which we have in the DNA here.”

[crashdive123]

My whole point is that it is my belief that the planet goes through cycles and that man has very little if any effect on the climate. (Please don't mistake this for health issues caused by pollution or squandering natural resources). The argument is always - it's settled.....all scientists agree......etc, etc, etc. No they don't. IMO for reasons that we do not discuss on the forum (political) the claims of man made climate change are perpetuated. Why are we (many parts of the planet) experiencing colder than average temperatures? (for the last few years) Why is it that the planet average high temp occured over 100 years ago? (The report by NASA that said 2005 (or some recent date) was flawed and subsequently corrected). I know there are groups and organizations that are trying to promote one agenda or another, but here is a bit of food for thought.

http://www.junkscience.com/news/robinson.htm

http://ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/swindle.htm

http://ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/sealevel.htm

http://ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/hot.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=3061015&page=1

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1899

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/may/16/global-warming-myth/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20070315&articleId=5086

[dbldrew]

Dude... Are you serious? Or are you just trying to pass on ignorance as 'bliss'???

I challenge you to find 5 climatologists in the world that have legitimate credentials that would agree with that statement. Global warming is a fact. There are thousands of scientists all over the globe and in every country that agree with that and have signed on. In the US though, global warming has been turned into a political football so that a few people at the top of the energy heap in in the US can continue to rape the earth and make huge profits with little to no consequence.

But in truth it should not really be called global warming, it should be called Global Wierding as things are going to be warmer everywhere. Just much weirder and in the future, much more deadly for mankind than we have grown to expect.

I would highly recommend that if you think Global warming isn't real, that you go read: http://unfccc.int/2860.php Spend a couple hours here and it may very well change the way you are thinking.

Here is what you should REALLY GET here though: If such a disparate group of scientists, politicians, and bureaucrats can take a massive amount of empirical data, and whittle it down the the statements that are now being fully supported, then the problem is really much worse than they are telling us. Why do I say that? Because every politician and bureaucrat that touched the UNFCC paperwork had to exact his/her pound of flesh from it, which means the consensus is skewed towards not making people freak out, and not making governments look culpable.

What can you do about Global warming personally? It's in your(and your kids and grandkids and their grandkids) best interest to do what you can to decrease your output where you can, mitigate what you cannot decrease, and to put pressure on all your elected officials so that they will do the same and make it economically viable.

Things I do: (not that I am special or anything, just examples of easy changes we all can make) All lights in my house except for a couple of specialty lamps are CFLs. I no longer drive my 55 mile daily commute, I use public transit. When I do drive it's not the jeep, It's a Honda Civic. Installed a solar water heater, Planted deciduous trees to shade the house in summer, and still expose it to sunlight in the winter. Whole house fan to blow hot air out before running the AC in the summer. Completely sealed the rafters with Reflectix last year(My heating bills are definitely down by 10 or 15% in the short term.)

Ok folks end rant...

You want some legitimate scientists that debunk co2 global warming here you go…

http://www.globalwarminghoax.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.22

[Badawg]

Sorry, Roy Spencer is not a legitimate Climatologist... No creds in climatology at all. He's a meteorologist that studies and designs sensors. Not only that but he runs a think tank funded by Exxon mobil. Don't give me Ball either. Both are so tainted by the political brush as to be worthless. The fact of the matter is the legitimate ones are all "bet hedgers" because if they speak out in the media they are called sensationalists and become Pariahs in the scientific community. I know this because I work with scientists every day, and a more conservative group is hard to find. Believe me when I say they want to check for EVERY variable...

Look, I don't really care if any of you want to stick your head in the sand, that's your business. But the fact remains that global warming is real, we don't even begin to know how the planet is truly going to react the the massive amounts of excess carbon we have been dumping into the atmosphere for the last 150 years. We do know that all the negative feedback loops that keep in balance the natural heating and cooling cycles are already overwhelmed though, which means that if we don't get a handle on our emissions, all bets are off...

And those of you that live in low lying territory may want to consider stilts.

[tsitenha]

Global warming was started by Thatcher in trying to break the power of the British Unions, specificaly the coal miners...do some real research and not cut and past regurgitated tests that are rehashed and rejected so they redo them in a different way

[Pict]

I don't put alot of stock in the Mayans. Nobody seems to think it odd that they could predict our end but not their own. Whatever their prophetic abilities were they were certainly no help to the Mayans. Mac

[Ziggy]

[QUOTE=mitch.chesney;95284]Where's your sources?

Here's one http://www.climate4you.com/GlobalTemperatures.htm

Well, assuming the poles shift 180*, if you want to go north you now use the white side of the needle. South? Red.

If the poles shift, the earth's crust usually shifts as well.

[B]I certainly agree that we need to change our practices to reduce, re-use, and recycle. And I don't buy into all the TEOTWAWKI stuff. I thought it to be a thought provoking subject, apparently it's just a passion provoking question, sorry I posted it...B]

[doug1980]

I try not to worry about things I have no control over. Life is too short already to always be worrying about the end. My mom worries about everything, health, end of days, bodily harm; she worries so much she barely has enough time to enjoy the time she has.

[tsitenha]

Ziggy just ask away, the people will never let a post go unanswered,
as far as global warming I can attest to that yesterday -37....today -22 wow

[crashdive123]

I find the argument that so and so is funded by such and such rather amusing. If we were to look into the funding given out to research the subject, should those receiving grants be ignored. After all, if they were to come out and say....nope, not man made....would their grant money stop because there was no need to study further?

[trax]

Ziggy just ask away, the people will never let a post go unanswered,
as far as global warming I can attest to that yesterday -37....today -22 wow

break out the shades and the suntan oil, brother.

[Sarge47]

The earth gets cold. The earth gets warm. The earth is like a woman.
Oh crap...don't give the earth any credit cards!!!:eek::rolleyes::D:cool:

[Badawg]

Crash: As you say, all theories are just that, a theory. and Funding from any source can be suspect. But, if you follow the money you will find that most of the global warming is a hoax folks are funded by two main sources. The energy industry which has a vested interest in the status quo, and the go0vernment of whatever country the researchers are working in, which in the case of the US, is also interested in the status quo(But that will likely change over the next two years) If we can cut the politics and money grabbing out of the equation you still have over a thousand extremely well respected Climatologists saying it's real and we are screwed, and thousands of wildlife biologists, chemists, oceanographers, microbiologists, ETC all saying something weird that has never happened before is happening.

And the US is the only 1st world nation that has been denying it...

And as far as grant money being pulled? I have watched it happen right here where I work. I'm in a science department at a top engineering school on a major public university and in my 6 years here I have seen people get their grants pulled for proving the opposite of what was expected. NSF grants at that. I qhave also seen a grant pulled because the PUI got real vocal in the media about some scary sh** he found out about the effects of flushing supertankers hulls offshore, and what it was doing to the fish populations along the west coast.

I don't think that global warming will be the end of our world though. Our grand children are the ones that are going to get the brunt of it. So let's do what we can to try to mitigate some of the damage we are causing now, as I for one don't want to look into the eyes of my grand children and have to say " Yeah, we knew about it but did nothing".

[Sarge47]

Since none of us were here during the 1st ice age, & wouldn't have survived it if we were, I say that there's not enough data to make the proper decision, All's I know is that it's been colder than a Coal-miner's backside here the last few days, & I could certainly use some of that G.W. everybody keeps yapping about!:rolleyes:

[snakeman]

We have had record cold tempuratures here two years in a row but apparently global warming is getting worse. Hmmm. And if if in some places the earth does get warmer. It is a stage. The earth has done it for ever! If something is not exactly right it is the end of the freakin world. All of a sudden everything is our fault. Now some people want to tax farmers more because when their cows fart it releases methane gases and will create a black hole or something in the ozone!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[crashdive123]

If we can cut the politics and money grabbing out of the equation That's the problem...I don't think you can. I will not discuss my reasons here because then I would have to lock the thread, but IMO the majority of the funding and research on both sides is politically motivated.

[Ole WV Coot]

Send a little of that warming stuff down here. Below zero tonight and that ain't normal. Called a relative North of Caribou, ME and was 48 below. I don't plan on going North the two miles to the grocery store until it warms up.

[crashdive123]

Snakeman - I know it is a difficult discussion to have without bringing politics into it, but that is one of the two things we do not discuss here. Thanks for your efforts to keep politics out of the discussion.

[snakeman]

It's pretty hard not to like you said. I was temped:D

[Sarge47]

Has anybody here, besides myself, read the book: "State of fear" by Michael Chriten?(don't remember the spelling of his last name.) I referenced it it the 1st thread on this topic I'd posted back on page one. Even Chris gave some info. Like Crash, I can't expound on this without going into a political discussion, but politics is where this is all based.:cool:

[Badawg]

You all have to over this "global warming" thing. It does not mean you are gtenerally going to see localized temperature rises across the entire world. some places will get hotter, some will get colder, some will get wetter or dryer... But the last time there was a 2 degree temperature shift globally was in the last ice age and a good half of what we call the US was under 5000 feet of ice. so if we heat it 4 degrees, do you think there will be no change?

[Ziggy]

I did NOT intend this to be a political discussion, I intended it it to be a discussion based on a simple scenario (climate change) and possible pole shift. YOU folks made it political. Debate is the transfer and discussion of ideas. Argument is the passionate debate of ideals. I am not passionate about this, it was simply a provocative question...or so I imagined...

[crashdive123]

[B] YOU folks made it political.

Actually, I think most have done a good job at not making it a political discussion. It's a topic that many people are passionate about - one way or the other. Believe me, if it does turn into a discussion of politics or personal attacks, the thread will be closed. After all......can't we all just get along.;)

[dbldrew]

Sorry, Roy Spencer is not a legitimate Climatologist... No creds in climatology at all. He's a meteorologist that studies and designs sensors. Not only that but he runs a think tank funded by Exxon mobil. Don't give me Ball either. Both are so tainted by the political brush as to be worthless. The fact of the matter is the legitimate ones are all "bet hedgers" because if they speak out in the media they are called sensationalists and become Pariahs in the scientific community. I know this because I work with scientists every day, and a more conservative group is hard to find. Believe me when I say they want to check for EVERY variable...

Look, I don't really care if any of you want to stick your head in the sand, that's your business. But the fact remains that global warming is real, we don't even begin to know how the planet is truly going to react the the massive amounts of excess carbon we have been dumping into the atmosphere for the last 150 years. We do know that all the negative feedback loops that keep in balance the natural heating and cooling cycles are already overwhelmed though, which means that if we don't get a handle on our emissions, all bets are off...

And those of you that live in low lying territory may want to consider stilts.

UN Blowback: More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims
POZNAN, Poland - The UN global warming conference currently underway in Poland is about to face a serious challenge from over 650 dissenting scientists from around the globe who are criticizing the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and former Vice President Al Gore. Set for release this week, a newly updated U.S. Senate Minority Report features the dissenting voices of over 650 international scientists, many current and former UN IPCC scientists, who have now turned against the UN. The report has added about 250 scientists (and growing) in 2008 to the over 400 scientists who spoke out in 2007. The over 650 dissenting scientists are more than 12 times the number of UN scientists (52) who authored the media hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers.

“Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly….As a scientist I remain skeptical.” - Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson,

“It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.” - U.S Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA.

“After reading [UN IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet.” - Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an Associate Editor of Monthly Weather Review.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6


If co2 really drives global temperatures, then how could it be that during the post war economic boom when we really started dumping co2 into the atmosphere, that from 1940 –1975 the temperature went down and not up?

[MCBushbaby]

Actually, I think most have done a good job at not making it a political discussion. It's a topic that many people are passionate about - one way or the other. Believe me, if it does turn into a discussion of politics or personal attacks, the thread will be closed. After all......can't we all just get along.;)

**** you Crash! Just kidding :rolleyes:
There have been some very good points made here in both directions. I've done some random google searching and various periods such and the Cretaceous had temperatures 7C higher than current. I found this graph that shows the temp cycle and it looks to be about every 54 million years (generally every two earth periods).
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/PageMill_Images/image277.gif
Now keep in mind this goes into the millions of years. WAYYYY farther than Mr. Gore's data went back:
http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/20000yearsbig.gif

Which is actually really interesting. If I can believe the first graph, we really are coming out of an ice age and we should expect temps to get warmer. co2 is not anywhere near where it was back when. And as someone pointed out before, it's a nutrient and not a pollutant.

HOWEVER

I think regardless of what people believe, we seem to be a collection of intelligent members who use evidence and research rather than personal preference and faith (sorry, for lack of a better word). So depending on what comes out, we could swing either way.

Can we agree that if this is just a natural earth cycle and the sea is bound to rise and the polar bears will die off, we can AT LEAST keep up the global effort to reduce emissions... maybe not for global warming, but for reduction of pollutants and landfills, energy wastefulness, etc.? I guess I'd rather be in a natural warming cycle where soon I'll have to fight of velociraptors on the trail where people are at least recycling and using solar/geothermal power as a standard (and not an option) than to be in the present with every river polluted, every landfill spilling over, every mountaintop mined off, even forest burned or cleared, and every animal shot to extinction.

[primeelite]

I have to agree. I can't say whether global warming is real or not and don't really care much for Mr. Gore but either way pollution is getting bad in many areas and polluting our water supplies with all kinds of chemicals that some we know of and others we don't. I would say it is better to knock down the pollution and it will make everyone healthier. I don't think too many would argue that the massive pollution is a good thing no matter what your view is on global warming. I haven't made up my mind on the whole thing yet but I am leaning towards more of its the earth's cycle but pollution is more what I am worried about.

[doug1980]

I try not to worry about things I have no control over. Life is too short already to always be worrying about the end. My mom worries about everything, health, end of days, bodily harm; she worries so much she barely has enough time to enjoy the time she has.

All this is making my brain hurt.

[Sarge47]

How can the earth be getting warmer since it's also a scientific fact that the sun is & has been shrinking 7 miles a year. (That's right, the sun is getting SMALLER). With the distance of the sun to the earth, you add that 7 miles going backwards and long before you ever hit the 54 million mark the sun would be where the earth is now. Also, many moons back I did an in-depth study on the alleged "54 million years old" earth age hoopla & found it lacking. Both methods of dating the earth that has been used are extremely suspect. (both Radon & carbon dating.) Other, more reliable methods, show an earth age of about 10,000 years. Now, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the 54 million years bit is real. Who's been alive that long to collaborate any of this? NO ONE!:eek: (Except, maybe, Brendon Fraiser, I saw him in this movie once....):rolleyes:

[flandersander]

Now correct me if i'm wrong, but the reason the earth got colder was because lots of organic matter was burried, and thus there was less carbon in the natural cycle, which led to a cooler earth. Now, we are releasing all that carbon, in the form of fossil fuels, warming the earth once again? Is that the big theory behind global warming in a really summed up manner?

[MCBushbaby]

Other, more reliable methods, show an earth age of about 10,000 years.

Oh Sarge, don't tell me you're one of those (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism)people

Rebuttal
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/sun_shrinking.html
http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/1986/PSCF9-86VanTill.html

[Sarge47]

Oh Sarge, don't tell me you're one of those (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism)people

Rebuttal
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/sun_shrinking.html
http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/1986/PSCF9-86VanTill.html
Yessir! One of those people who've examined "BOTH SIDES" of the evidence.
However, everybody will continue to believe what they want to believe. You might as well try & talk 'em out of using their favorite knife! (BTW, I've visited those sites you've posted before & they found that they are very biased with a lot of holes in their conclusions. I give them 5 raspberries!:p)

[MCBushbaby]

I love raspberries! lol
Oh it's late, I'm putting this thread to bed.

[klkak]

Here are a few quotes I found:

"We have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest."
Stephen Schneider (leading advocate of the global warming theory)
(in interview for Discover magazine, Oct 1989)


"In the United States...we have to first convince the American People and the Congress that the climate problem is real."
former President Bill Clinton in a 1997 address to the United Nations

Nobody is interested in solutions if they don't think there's a problem. Given that starting point, I believe it is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presentations on how dangerous (global warming) is, as a predicate for opening up the audience to listen to what the solutions are...
former Vice President Al Gore
(now, chairman and co-founder of Generation Investment Management--
a London-based business that sells carbon credits)
(in interview with Grist Magazine May 9, 2006, concerning his book, An Inconvenient Truth)

"In the long run, the replacement of the precise and disciplined language of science by the misleading language of litigation and advocacy may be one of the more important sources of damage to society incurred in the current debate over global warming."
Dr. Richard S. Lindzen
(leading climate and atmospheric science expert- MIT) (3)

"Researchers pound the global-warming drum because they know there is politics and, therefore, money behind it. . . I've been critical of global warming and am persona non grata."
Dr. William Gray
(Professor of Atmospheric Sciences at Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado and leading expert of hurricane prediction )
(in an interview for the Denver Rocky Mountain News, November 28, 1999)

"Scientists who want to attract attention to themselves, who want to attract great funding to themselves, have to (find a) way to scare the public . . . and this you can achieve only by making things bigger and more dangerous than they really are."
Petr Chylek
(Professor of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia)
Commenting on reports by other researchers that Greenland's glaciers are melting.
(Halifax Chronicle-Herald, August 22, 2001) (8)

"Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing -- in terms of economic policy and environmental policy."
Tim Wirth , while U.S. Senator, Colorado.
After a short stint as United Nations Under-Secretary for Global Affairs (4)
he now serves as President, U.N. Foundation, created by Ted Turner and his $1 billion "gift"

"No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits.... Climate change [provides] the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world."
Christine Stewart, Minister of the Environment of Canada
recent quote from the Calgary Herald

[klkak]

A Brief History of Ice Ages and Warming

Global warming started long before the "Industrial Revolution" and the invention of the internal combustion engine. Global warming began 18,000 years ago as the earth started warming its way out of the Pleistocene Ice Age-- a time when much of North America, Europe, and Asia lay buried beneath great sheets of glacial ice.

Earth's climate and the biosphere have been in constant flux, dominated by ice ages and glaciers for the past several million years. We are currently enjoying a temporary reprieve from the deep freeze.

Approximately every 100,000 years Earth's climate warms up temporarily. These warm periods, called interglacial periods, appear to last approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years before regressing back to a cold ice age climate. At year 18,000 and counting our current interglacial vacation from the Ice Age is much nearer its end than its beginning.

Global warming during Earth's current interglacial warm period has greatly altered our environment and the distribution and diversity of all life. For example:

Approximately 15,000 years ago the earth had warmed sufficiently to halt the advance of glaciers, and sea levels worldwide began to rise.

By 8,000 years ago the land bridge across the Bering Strait was drowned, cutting off the migration of men and animals to North America.

Since the end of the Ice Age, Earth's temperature has risen approximately 16 degrees F and sea levels have risen a total of 300 feet! Forests have returned where once there was only ice.

Over the past 750,000 years of Earth's history, Ice Ages have occurred at regular intervals, of approximately 100,000 years each.
Courtesy of Illinois State Museum

During ice ages our planet is cold, dry, and inhospitable-- supporting few forests but plenty of glaciers and deserts. Like a spread of collosal bulldozers, glaciers have scraped and pulverized vast stretches of Earth's surface and completely destroyed entire regional ecosystems not once, but several times. During Ice Ages winters were longer and more severe and ice sheets grew to tremendous size, accumulating to thicknesses of up to 8,000 feet!. They moved slowly from higher elevations to lower-- driven by gravity and their tremendous weight. They left in their wake altered river courses, flattened landscapes, and along the margins of their farthest advance, great piles of glacial debris.

During the last 3 million years glaciers have at one time or another covered about 29% of Earth's land surface or about 17.14 million square miles (44.38 million sq. km.) . What did not lay beneath ice was a largely cold and desolate desert landscape, due in large part to the colder, less-humid atmospheric conditions that prevailed.

During the Ice Age summers were short and winters were brutal. Animal life and especially plant life had a very tough time of it. Thanks to global warming, that has all now changed, at least temporarily.

Before "global warming" started 18,000 years ago most of the earth was a frozen and arid wasteland. Over half of earth 's surface was covered by glaciers or extreme desert. Forests were rare.

Not a very fun place to live.

"Global warming" over the last 15,000 years has changed our world from an ice box to a garden. Today extreme deserts and glaciers have largely given way to grasslands, woodlands, and forests.

Wish it could last forever, but . . . .

In the 1970s concerned environmentalists like Stephen Schneider of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado feared a return to another ice age due to manmade atmospheric pollution blocking out the sun.

Since about 1940 the global climate did in fact appear to be cooling. Then a funny thing happened-- sometime in the late 1970s temperature declines slowed to a halt and ground-based recording stations during the 1980s and 1990s began reading small but steady increases in near-surface temperatures. Fears of "global cooling" then changed suddenly to "global warming,"-- the cited cause: manmade atmospheric pollution causing a runaway greenhouse effect.

This is a cut and paste from: http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

[red lake]

Nice idea for a thread. Could have picked something a little less controversial like abortion or the death penalty.

Been down this road before. Think Hamster. Think wheel. Think I have run far enough without getting anywhere.

[RichNH]

I'd like to make an observation or two, it's about the debate on global warming.

It seems to me that almost all of the debate I've seen on this subject contain two characteristics.

The first is that the debate revolves around not so much the facts (and by facts I mean hard data, temp readings, glacier volume,etc) but the consequences of observed fact. The conclusions that people and groups come to seem to be what is argued about, not the facts themselves.

The second characteristic of the debate is the use of emotive words, particularly when talking about the "other guys".

It seems to me that the facts speak for themselves from everything I've read or researched. The Earth is indeed warming up, slowly but surely. How much it'll warm, what the consequences are of this I don't know for certain. I used to think that interruption of the Atlantic current (and its moderating influence on polar temps) by freshwater melt from Greenland was a plausible theory for how a warming Earth could trigger an Ice Age. However I now think that because we have been adding carbon back into the carbon cycle that this may not be the case. In past Ice Ages the carbon locked in the Earth as oil and coal was not a factor to the natural cycles that occurred. I think that as a species, we seem to be adding this card to the table. So we'll see (as a species, not as individuals) what happens.

I am sure that whatever happens, our species will adapt and survive as long as the change occurs slow enough to allow us to do that (the stray asteroid/comet being a deal breaker here).

There will always be changes in our climate, sometimes these will occur on a time scale that can be observed by individuals within a given lifetime, such as the global cooling caused when Krakatoa blew up in the South Pacific. Other changes not only are outside of the individual to observe, but whole civilizations. How to predict the results of all these events and natural cycles meshing together is for someone smarter than me.

What I do know is that while I'm no clairvoyant on this subject, I can do things which would minimize my individual impact on the "ecosystem". I do what I can and wish others would do the same. Unfortunately many others either don't care, are too wrapped up in their own pleasures, are too ignorant or are unable to "contribute" because of their situation in life.

As Sonny and Cher said, the beat goes on...

Rich

[palm stalker]

the problem is over crowding of the planet..the planet has always breathed and exhaled.. too cold,too hot, too humid, too dry..we homo sapians, survived because we were separeted into small groups..at one point we were at less than 20,000 .proved with mytacondral(sp),dna// it was sickness and close breeding that brought this about.. it closness of groups that spread disease, like aids,hiv,coleria,bird flu..a pandemic will reach us..and 3/4 of mankind will die. and the world will be in balance again.. just my thoughts and feelings not meent to shove it down ur throts

[klkak]

What does geologic history have to offer in sorting through the confusion? Quite a bit, actually.

"If 'ice age' is used to refer to long, generally cool, intervals during which glaciers advance and retreat, we are still in one today. Our modern climate represents a very short, warm period between glacial advances." Illinois State Museum

Periods of Earth warming and cooling occur in cycles. This is well understood, as is the fact that small-scale cycles of about 40 years exist within larger-scale cycles of 400 years, which in turn exist inside still larger scale cycles of 20,000 years, and so on.

Example of regional variations in surface air temperature for the last 1000 years, estimated from a variety of sources, including temperature-sensitive tree growth indices and written records of various kinds, largely from western Europe and eastern North America. Shown are changes in regional temperature in ° C, from the baseline value for 1900. Compiled by R. S. Bradley and J. A. Eddy based on J. T. Houghton et al., Climate Change: The IPCC Assessment, Cambridge UniversityPress, Cambridge, 1990 and published in EarthQuest, vol 5, no 1, 1991. Courtesy of Thomas Crowley, Remembrance of Things Past: Greenhouse Lessons from the Geologic Record

Earth's climate was in a cool period from A.D. 1400 to about A.D. 1860, dubbed the "Little Ice Age." This period was characterized by harsh winters, shorter growing seasons, and a drier climate. The decline in global temperatures was a modest 1/2° C, but the effects of this global cooling cycle were more pronounced in the higher latitudes. The Little Ice Age has been blamed for a host of human suffering including crop failures like the "Irish Potato Famine" and the demise of the medieval Viking colonies in Greenland.

Today we enjoy global temperatures which have warmed back to levels of the so called "Medieval Warm Period," which existed from approximately A.D. 1000 to A.D. 1350.

"...the Earth was evidently coming out of a relatively cold period in the 1800s so that warming in the past century may be part of this natural recovery."
Dr. John R. Christy
(leading climate and atmospheric science expert- U. of Alabama in Huntsville)

Global warming alarmists maintain that global temperatures have increased since about A.D. 1860 to the present as the result of the so-called "Industrial Revolution,"-- caused by releases of large amounts of greenhouse gases (principally carbon dioxide) from manmade sources into the atmosphere causing a runaway "Greenhouse Effect."

Was man really responsible for pulling the Earth out of the Little Ice Age with his industrial pollution? If so, this may be one of the greatest unheralded achievements of the Industrial Age!

Unfortunately, we tend to overestimate our actual impact on the planet. In this case the magnitude of the gas emissions involved, even by the most aggressive estimates of atmospheric warming by greenhouse gases, is inadequate to account for the magnitude of temperature increases. So what causes the up and down cycles of global climate change?

Causes of Global Climate Change
Climate change is controlled primarily by cyclical eccentricities in Earth's rotation and orbit, as well as variations in the sun's energy output.

"Greenhouse gases" in Earth's atmosphere also influence Earth's temperature, but in a much smaller way. Human additions to total greenhouse gases play a still smaller role, contributing about 0.2% - 0.3% to Earth's greenhouse effect.

Major Causes of Global Temperature Shifts

(1) Astronomical Causes

11 year and 206 year cycles: Cycles of solar variability (sunspot activity)
21,000 year cycle: Earth's combined tilt and elliptical orbit around the Sun ( precession of the equinoxes)
41,000 year cycle: Cycle of the +/- 1.5° wobble in Earth's orbit (tilt)
100,000 year cycle: Variations in the shape of Earth's elliptical orbit (cycle of eccentricity)

(2) Atmospheric Causes

Heat retention: Due to atmospheric gases, mostly gaseous water vapor (not droplets), also carbon dioxide, methane, and a few other miscellaneous gases-the "greenhouse effect"
Solar reflectivity: Due to white clouds, volcanic dust, polar ice caps

(3) Tectonic Causes

Landmass distribution: Shifting continents (continental drift) causing changes in circulatory patterns of ocean currents. It seems that whenever there is a large land mass at one of the Earth's poles, either the north pole or south pole, there are ice ages.
Undersea ridge activity: "Sea floor spreading" (associated with continental drift) causing variations in ocean displacement.

For more details see:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/milankovitch.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_233658.htm

Playing with Numbers

Global climate and temperature cycles are the result of a complex interplay between a variety of causes. Because these cycles and events overlap, sometimes compounding one another, sometimes canceling one another out, it is inaccurate to imply a statistically significant trend in climate or temperature patterns from just a few years or a few decades of data.

Unfortunately, a lot of disinformation about where Earth's climate is heading is being propagated by "scientists" who use improper statistical methods, short-term temperature trends, or faulty computer models to make analytical and anecdotal projections about the significance of man-made influences to Earth's climate.

During the last 100 years there have been two general cycles of warming and cooling recorded in the U.S. We are currently in the second warming cycle. Overall, U.S. temperatures show no significant warming trend over the last 100 years. This has been well established but not well publicized.

Each year Government press releases declare the previous year to be the "hottest year on record." The UN's executive summary on climate change, issued in January 2001, insists that the 20th century was the warmest in the last millennium. The news media distribute these stories and people generally believed them to be true. However, as most climatologists know, these reports generally are founded on ground-based temperature readings, which are misleading. The more meaningful and precise orbiting satellite data for the same period (which are generally not cited by the press) have year after year showed little or no warming.

Dr. Patrick Michaels has demonstrated this effect is a common problem with ground - based recording stations, many of which originally were located in predominantly rural areas, but over time have suffered background bias due to urban sprawl and the encroachment of concrete and asphalt (the "urban heat island effect"). The result has been an upward distortion of increases in ground temperature over time. Satellite measurements are not limited in this way, and are accurate to within 0.1° C. They are widely recognized by scientists as the most accurate data available. Significantly, global temperature readings from orbiting satellites show no significant warming in the 18 years they have been continuously recording and returning data.

A Matter of Opinion

Has manmade pollution in the form of carbon dioxide (CO2) and other gases caused a runaway Greenhouse Effect and Global Warming?

Before joining the mantra, consider the following:

CO2 in our atmosphere has been increasing steadily for the last 18,000 years-long before humans invented smokestacks. Unless you count campfires and intestinal gas, man played no role in the pre-industrial increases.

CO2 concentrations in earth's atmosphere move with temperature. Both temperatures and CO2 have been steadily increasing for 18,000 years. Ignoring these 18,000 years of data "global warming activists" contend recent increases in atmospheric CO2 are unnatural and are the result of only 200 years or so of human pollution causing a runaway greenhouse effect.

Incidentally, earth's temperature and CO2 levels today have reached levels similar to a previous interglacial cycle of 120,000 - 140,000 years ago. From beginning to end this cycle lasted about 20,000 years. This is known as the Eemian Interglacial Period and the earth returned to a full-fledged ice age immediately afterward.

Total human contributions to greenhouse gases account for only about 0.28%of the "greenhouse effect". Anthropogenic (man-made) carbon dioxide (CO2) comprises about 0.117% of this total, and man-made sources of other gases (methane, nitrous oxide (NOX), other misc. gases) contributes another 0.163% .

Approximately 99.72% of the "greenhouse effect" is due to natural causes -- mostly water vapor and traces of other gases, which we can do nothing at all about. Eliminating human activity altogether would have little impact on climate change.

If global warming is caused by CO2 in the atmosphere then does CO2 also cause increased sun activity too?

Put another way, rising Earth temperatures and increasing CO2 may be "effects" and our own sun the "cause".

Cut and pasted for the following web-site.
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

[laughing beetle]

OUCH!! My head hurts!!! Gimmie some willow bark tea!!

[wildWoman]

Just had to re-post this corrected version after noticing a very peculiar Freudian mistake in my original post.

Even if we were approaching another iceage and human activity had no impact on the climate whatsoever; what's the point in using that as an argument to thrash the planet? It is human greed and stupid mindless consumerism that has led to so much pollution and extinction of many species. It is plain stupidity to have the entire world economy dependent on a non-renewable energy source, quite apart from the "carbon footprint".
It seems to me that if all "smarts" the human race thinks it possesses were applied to living within our means, avoiding and combatting pollution and the destruction of the few last wild places that remain, we'd all be better off. I'd love to have mining and oil company CEOs required to live off the waters they pollute for the rest of their lives and live right next to their tailing ponds until they die. I suspect they might see things a little different then.

[Badawg]

More food for thought... This is fresh and pretty much kills the global cooling argument.


Study: Antarctica joins rest of globe in warming
By SETH BORENSTEIN, The Associated Press

12:35 p.m. January 21, 2009

WASHINGTON — Antarctica, the only place that had oddly seemed immune from climate change, is warming after all, according to a new study. For years, Antarctica was an enigma to scientists who track the effects of global warming. Temperatures on much of the continent at the bottom of the world were staying the same or slightly cooling, previous research indicated.

The new study went back further than earlier work and filled in a massive gap in data with satellite information to find that Antarctica too is getting warmer, like the Earth's other six continents.

The findings were published in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

"Contrarians have sometime grabbed on to this idea that the entire continent of Antarctica is cooling, so how could we be talking about global warming," said study co-author Michael Mann, director of the Earth System Science Center at Penn State University. "Now we can say: no, it's not true ... It is not bucking the trend."

The study does not point to man-made climate change as the cause of the Antarctic warming – doing so is a highly intricate scientific process – but a different and smaller study out late last year did make that connection.

"We can't pin it down, but it certainly is consistent with the influence of greenhouse gases," said NASA scientist Drew Shindell, another study co-author. Some of the effects also could be natural variability, he said.

The study showed that Antarctica – about one-and-a-half times bigger than the United States – remains a complicated weather picture, especially with only a handful of monitoring stations in its vast interior.

The researchers used satellite data and mathematical formulas to fill in missing information. That made outside scientists queasy about making large conclusions with such sparse information.

"This looks like a pretty good analysis, but I have to say I remain somewhat skeptical," Kevin Trenberth, climate analysis chief at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, said in an e-mail. "It is hard to make data where none exist."

Shindell said it was more comprehensive than past studies and jibed with computer models.

The research found that since 1957, the annual temperature for the entire continent of Antarctica has warmed by about 1 degree Fahrenheit, but still is 50 degrees below zero. West Antarctica, which is about 20 degrees warmer than the east, has warmed nearly twice as fast, said study lead author Eric Steig of the University of Washington.

East Antarctica, which scientists had long thought to be cooling, is warming slightly when yearly averages are looked at over the past 50 years, said Steig.

However, autumn temperatures in east Antarctica are cooling over the long term. And east Antarctica from the late 1970s through the 1990s, cooled slightly, Steig said.

Some researchers skeptical about the magnitude of global warming overall said that the new study didn't match their measurements from satellites and that there appears to be no warming in Antarctica since 1980.

"It overstates what they have obtained from their analysis," said Roger Pielke Sr., a senior research scientist at the University of Colorado.

Steig said a different and independent study using ice cores drilled in west Antarctica found the same thing as his paper. And recent satellite data also confirms what this paper has found, Steig added.

The study has major ramifications for sea level rise, said Andrew Weaver at the University of Victoria in Canada. Most major sea level rise projections for the future counted on a cooling – not warming – Antarctica. This will make sea level rise much worse, Weaver said.

–––

On the Net

Nature: http://www.nature.com/nature

[crashdive123]

I know it is difficult to sort out all of the claims - on both sides. I think for an issue like this that it is important to look at or into whom is providing the information. It's sad that we have to do that, but real journalism IMO died some time ago. Do they report fairly, or do they have an agenda? So who is Seth Borenstein?


Who is in Denial Now? AP Article Distorts Global Warming Reality as Fact
Wednesday, September 26th, 2007 11:38 AM
It would seem that the AP, through Seth Borenstein, whom we have come to know as a man who like to whip up some controversy with his articles on the environment and global warming in particular, has done it again.
Not unlike his previous articles, though, he has also exposed - at the very least - as an exaggerator of the highest order.
It has been across the board been BASHED by scientists who regard this article as fear mongering of the worst kind. To me, it is just another indication of just how desperate the AGW proponents are to forward their DYING AGENDA.
Here is a littany of rebuttals I found on this site including:
UN IPCC reviewer and climate researcher Dr Vincent Gray, of New Zealand
Swedish Professor Wibjorn Karlen of the Department of Social and Economic Geography at Stockholm University
State of Florida Climatologist Dr. Jim O’Brien of Florida State University
Dr. Boris Winterhalter, a retired Senior Research Scientist and Coordinator for national international marine geological research at the Geological Survey of Finland
In this rebuttal in NewsBusters to his AP article, it is pointed out that the scientific ‘proof’ of this coming apocalypse is nothing of the sort, but a skewed view based on unproven computer projections. Not to mention, some of the people he purportedly gathers his backing from were grossly misquoted.
To wit:
Toward the end of the article, Borenstein wrote:
Even John Christy at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, a scientist often quoted by global warming skeptics, said he figures the seas will rise at least 16 inches by the end of the century. But he tells people to prepare for a rise of about three feet just in case.
Well, I e-mailed Dr. Christy, and this was his verbatim response:
Noel:Please note that there are no quotes in the comment. In other words Bornstien [sic] is interpreting my comments because none of my quotes were evidently in concert with the them [sic] of the story. Our main discussion was about sea level rise from hurricane storm surges. I spoke about this as the real danger - not 1 inch per decade (or about 16 inches per century). My point was that since storm surges are the real problem, so being ready for 3 feet is better than nothing.
Interesting, wouldn’t you agree? According to Christy, he was speaking to Borenstein about sea level rises during hurricanes. But that’s NOT what Borenstein reported.
That’s pretty lame folks. But what else do you expect from the fear mongers? They have to basically make sh*t up to keep us in line.
Also, about those sea levels rising…apparently, according to several published scientific studies out there they have been rising for 10,000 years and have shown no marked increase in the last century, even longer.
Richard S. Courtney, a climate and atmospheric science consultant and a UN IPCC expert reviewer ridiculed the AP article goes through the list and also labels the article as such:
“Rarely have I read such a collection of unsubstantiated and scare-mongering twaddle.”
Mind you, this sh*t is making headlines all over the globe under the auspices of the Associated Press people. Yes, you are being lied to by your news agencies.Taken from -
http://www.discussglobalwarming.com/blog/2007/09/26/who-is-in-denial-now-ap-article-distorts-global-warming-reality-as-fact/

[klkak]

I can see a bright side to sea levels rising. Beach front property is very expensive. If sea levels rise a bit all the current beach front property will be under water and the lesser valued property behind it will increase in value providing an opportunity for someone with a lower financial standing to have beach front property. On top of that, look at all the new artificial reefs that will be created by the submerged buildings.

Its a win win situation. The poor homeless fish get a new place to live and the poor folks that always dreamed of owning beach front property will get their wish also.

Just think if the water rises enough.

I got some ocean front property in Arizona.
From my front porch you can see the sea.
I got some ocean front property in Arizona.
If you'll buy that, I'll throw the golden gate in free.

Yeah, if you'll buy that I'll throw the golden gate in free.

Of course by then the Golden gate will be a long skinny island.

[Geronimo!]

I guess I'd rather be in a natural warming cycle where soon I'll have to fight of velociraptors on the trail where people are at least recycling and using solar/geothermal power as a standard (and not an option) than to be in the present with every river polluted, every landfill spilling over, every mountaintop mined off, even forest burned or cleared, and every animal shot to extinction.

amen brother

[klkak]

Nice idea for a thread. Could have picked something a little less controversial like abortion or the death penalty.

Speaking of the death penalty. I heard this guy on T.V. the other day say that as every other state in the union is trying to do away with the death penalty that Texas is putting in an express lane.

Convict'em an kill'em.......save some tax dollars.:eek:

[Scoobywan]

As for the global warming, I think the planet will cycle like it always does if brought on by humans or just natural events, even the climatologists say they don't have a full understanding of how it all works. And as for the Mayans, 2012 is the end of the calendar, which doesn't necessarily mean end of the world. Some people say end of the world, others say a shift in awareness (Paradigm shift is the term most used). So, I would say just live your life, and try to be happy with the time you've got. But that's just my 2 cents.

[Ziggy]

I noticed, and expected, that everyone jumped on the Global Warming bandwagon with their favorite propaganda , but 90% of you miseed the survival part of the initial post. I have to wonder, if a group of survival experts get sidetracked so easily, how do they truly expect to survive when called upon to do so?

[rebel]

I noticed, and expected, that everyone jumped on the Global Warming bandwagon with their favorite propaganda , but 90% of you miseed the survival part of the initial post. I have to wonder, if a group of survival experts get sidetracked so easily, how do they truly expect to survive when called upon to do so?

1. Everyone didn't respond.
2. I thought it was the thread originator's responsibility to keep the thread moving in the right direction and to clarify the intent of the thread.
3. What are you asking? Perhaps, a re-wording of the question would help.

[klkak]

I noticed, and expected, that everyone jumped on the Global Warming bandwagon with their favorite propaganda.
We do love a bandwagon when we can bring our favorite propaganda!:)


but 90% of you miseed the survival part of the initial post.

What was the survival part of the initial post again?:confused:


I have to wonder, if a group of survival experts get sidetracked so easily, how do they truly expect to survive when called upon to do so?
We allow ourselves to get "sidetracked" because its fun. It is truly amazing the direction a post will go in.:D

Why worry about something you have little or no control of? It's far better to prepare for that which you have a reasonable expectation may happen within your life time. Like going hunting and getting disoriented for a day or two. Or, if you live in Florida or along the east coast or the gulf coast. Planning for a hurricane. Which you can reasonably assume will happen.


Aside from the record low temps in many places, and the established fact that the planet hasn't warmed any in ten years and is beginning a cooling trend, what do you all think about global warming, or climate change?
We covered that pretty good!


The only scenario regarding 12/21/2012 that I've heard so far that I might buy into is that while the planet crosses the galactic equator we could experience a pole shift. Is there a way to survive that? Would you want to? (Perhaps off subject, but a helluva change)
Speaking for myself only.........Haven't given it a single thought at all.


Can we do anything about climate change?
I think we've covered that.....and the answer is "yes" and "no" depending on which side of the fence you are standing.


Is there really enough human impact to do that?
Covered that also.......and the answer is "yes" and "no" depending on which side of the fence you are on.


Won't nature self-correct as it always has, wiping us out in the process?

Why not. Thats been the pattern since the beginning of time. Global catastrophes that wipe out the dominant life form at that time.


Just wondering everyone's thoughts on this....
You got thoughts from a whole bunch of folks. So be happy people even gave your thread a second look. I thought we covered allot of good stuff in this thread.:)

[SnipAR-10]

It seems to me that global warming in itself is a kind of religion, using any, and all information to even vaguely support its claim. "Temperatures are unusually hot".. "Global warming". "Its getting colder." "Oh, that's an odd weather system/pattern/whatever, caused by, (wait for it) global warming." Certainly is a nice catchall isn't it? Can't be totally proven either way so its all good.

I find something else odd: I believe that last year some global warming conference that was supposed to be in Africa was canceled, due to unusually cold weather. Lemme guess, "global warming"? Ooh ooh I got it right!! I wanna cookie.

Yet another strange thing. Wasn't it in the mid to late seventies that the magazine Newsweek had a headline, and front cover dominated by "Earth headed for next ice age?". I might be a little off here. Is our scientific community, with all their instruments and experience capable of finding data to support an ice age with some certainty and a mere thirty years or so later saying, "Whoops! we had it backwards, sorry." I am finding it hard to believe that they were THAT wrong.

Supposedly, the man starting the whole mess about "global warming" admitted that they fudged the numbers, (say "lied") making it look worse than it actually was for the purpose of drawing more attention. Should we even be persueing this further?

Ok, my thoughts: Climate change is probably happening. I do not believe that it is caused by man. Rather I think this is just another part of the planets' normal cycle. Granted, I don't believe we are helping with the problem. I feel that even if we alter everything we do in the attempt to "reverse" the "problem" our results will be meaningless. I would not go so far as to say that there even is a problem.

I see the entire concept of carbon tax, carbon regulation by "credits" and such as simply another way of having more governmental control over everyone. That and of course raising revenue by fining those naughty people who break the new rules. Eventually, the powers that be will find out cutting open the golden goose yields nothing. We the people are probably seen as more of a "cash cow" by them, and this is just another scheme to squeeze more out of us than is their due. Nothing new here, just different tactics and reasoning.

At my home, every light bulb is of the compact florescent type. (Well, the workshop lights are the long tubes. There. I lied. :) I did not buy them to "reduce a carbon footprint". They were bought with the intent of lowering my already low electric bill, which they do nicely. (As long as the power company doesn't continue to increase their rates, AGAIN) During the winter I use a regular bulb or two in my barn because the CFL's turned off at night don't usually turn back on when its very cold. I drive a small, efficient car most of the time. (38mpg give/take a few mpg) Again, not to help the environment, but to pay less for gasoline. I am very conservative, try not to waste anything, and have a respect for all life, and the environment. I do not litter, and I have picked up other peoples trash on occasion and such. I am doing, in essence what I can, and if it has any affect to slow or halt "global warming" you could consider it "icing on the cake". Regardless of my reasoning, it helps me out with funds, and "saves the planet" I guess everyone should be happy. Right? :P

[hoosierarcher]

Greenland's on it's way. But yes, some glaciers are increasing in size...here (http://environmentallegal.blogs.com/sholzer/2006/08/glacier_size_in.html)

http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/Greenland_Melt.jpg
http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/glacier_melt3.jpg
http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/Portage%20Glacier%20Melt.jpg
http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/AncientIce/Pasterze%20Glacier%20Melt.jpg
http://www.stopglobalwarming.com.au/images/current_impacts/global_warming_glaciers_around_world.jpg

Did you ever wonder why A land covered in ice and snow was called Greenland? It's because when they landed there first it was plush and green and lovely. It was this way until the 18th century when it gradually began to cool. This was well before humans were pouring CO2 or any other substance into the atmosphere both Greenland's centuries of temperate climate and the past couple centuries of colder climate there. Glaciers ebb and flow, advance and retreat all the time it is natural. The polar ice caps are the thickest and large as they were 30 years ago. Meterologists can't get the weekly outlook within a 10% margin of error ever and you're trusting computer simulations based on educated guesses?

[D Hotkiss]

dont misunderstand the mayan calendar..it doesnt refer to and end time .. it refers to a time of transformation. the time of the 5th sun.

[bulrush]

Hoosierarcher,
I heard a different story about the naming of Greenland. A group of vikings around 800-900 AD got rowdy and the local gov't (such as it was) put a bounty on their heads (all of them). In order so they wouldn't get killed, the rowdy ones (including Eric the Red) left with their families. They named Greenland that name because it was covered in ice at the time. They named Iceland that way, because it was green and good enough to live on, and they didn't want competition from other people.

This is also why Eric the Red came to what is now Canada, he was looking for a new place to settle with his friends and all their families.

However, to kind of support your idea, I did hear that one winter (in the 1700s?) was the coldest on record, indicating that the 1700's in general were really cold. Also in England, a grandmother remembers a certain bay freezing up every winter during the 1940s, but her grandchildren don't believe her because that bay hasn't been frozen in 30+ years! (Don't remember where I got that from but it illustrates how it has gotten warmer over the years. We/scientists are not sure why though.)

[SnipAR-10]

That picture of the Portage glacier almost looks to be camera trickery. The newer picture is not the same angle, and appears to be taken from "further down" the curve of the landscape. Effect being that the glacier looks smaller to a greater extent. It does look smaller to me, but I think they were trying to "enhance" the effect.

[remy]

Really ?

Is it really that hard to admit to ourselves that our ecological impact on this planet has visible consequences ?

No one is arguing that earth has cycles...what we are seeing though, is that the way we manage our ecological presence, is in direct correlation with off of the chart numbers within this cycle.

This, in turns, affects to a greater extent whatever climate trend the earth is experiencing. It is like a soldier being wounded on the battle field...and having all of the soldier's friends visiting him and plunging their dirty fingers in the wound, accelerating signs of infection, and widening the wound to critical proportions.
Again...no one is arguing that certain things are bound to happen, like being wounded during war times...but focusing solely on one of the two related happening is not reasonable.

Reason dictates that indeed the earth has seen warming and cooling trends in the past 3 or 4 billion years. Were we here during those major cycles ? No.
But we are here now, and the rapport between the present cycle and us is in plain view for all to see. Carbon levels have never been, in the history of this planet, as high as they are today. The ozone layer has never had a hole before our ecological impact...and so on.


I guess, we will see what the next 30 years bring about.

[Rick]

Okay, just so there is no confusion here. If you see me lying wounded on the battlefield (not that I actually have any friends, just sayin') it's not okay to poke your dirty fingers in any of my wounds. If you want to rescue me, then fine. Otherwise, keep your hands off!

Besides, not only do I not know where your fingers have been....I don't want to know.

[trax]

Besides, not only do I not know where your fingers have been....I don't want to know.

He's lyin' people, don't respond to any pm's from this man, he really wants to know where your fingers have been. Sad, really (walking away from computer shaking my head)

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
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heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

ОдеÑ� (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/910)77.4 (http://cottagenet.ru)прод (http://eyesvision.ru/physics/20)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com)Орло (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1105831)Eric (http://filmzones.ru/t/772787)Лапу (http://gadwall.ru/t/675418)Iren (http://gaffertape.ru/t/854025)Clau (http://gageboard.ru/t/888676)учил (http://gagrule.ru/t/758698)Henr (http://gallduct.ru/t/969903)Tesc (http://galvanometric.ru/t/456326)Ð*ахл (http://gangforeman.ru/t/815857)Mart (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/946683)BR22 (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1143336)
Thom (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/811105)Phil (http://gascautery.ru/t/1081142)Daiw (http://gashbucket.ru/t/469002)Инди (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1026198)Tesc (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/567149)arin (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1160349)WOLF (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1135779)Цвет (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/838646)Дуна (http://geartreating.ru/t/815503)рома (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/765056)1576 (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/564994)ин�т (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/653917)Slaw (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/659198)клуб (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/756279)Jame (http://getthebounce.ru/t/292244)
Соде (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/854265)Внот (http://habituate.ru/t/1048427)Yver (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/450098)Бело (http://hackworker.ru/t/993441)Каза (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/976867)доку (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/864246)Bran (http://hailsquall.ru/t/663810)Пету (http://hairysphere.ru/t/655066)�ерт (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/565280)Char (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/662600)Levi (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/565232)Byre (http://haltstate.ru/t/561209)Fran (http://handcoding.ru/t/852191)Tesc (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1027830)John (http://handradar.ru/t/563012)
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Will (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/844010)Emil (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/603646)Adio (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/607247)ELEG (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/609192)Sela (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/605877)Sela (http://jobstress.ru/t/605838)Prab (http://jogformation.ru/t/637859)XIII (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/841213)Бала (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1142315)Вран (http://journallubricator.ru/t/786914)Морм (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/786776)�лек (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/857756)XVII (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/836795)Миль (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/820824)Пуль (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/830412)
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Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/608700)�ере (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/611960)мате (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/677054)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1193394)Добр (http://laborracket.ru/t/767920)Шуби (http://labourearnings.ru/t/895457)Jacq (http://labourleasing.ru/t/896551)�охр (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1010059)Nora (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1071371)Lloy (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/901320)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1185905)Мочу (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/856863)Мила (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/809802)�бра (http://laggingload.ru/t/834028)Карр (http://laissezaller.ru/t/857350)
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[yellowcab]

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Tefa (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98341)Mexx (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570522)Миро (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/143077)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147920)hand (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/200655)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/147650)Бело (http://onesticket.ru/shop/578168)VIII (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/580080)Семе (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/681946)Греб (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/680620)Дени (http://palmberry.ru/shop/322995)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/581501)Ð�епо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/685490)Соде (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1166852)Лете (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1166895)
Соло (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1165878)фраз (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1168686)Мудр (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1538698)XVII (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/357845)врач (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/593936)Коте (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/594547)Care (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1044164)пере (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1072119)Ð*ощи (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/175624)Mikh (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/476746)Така (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/512301)Some (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/511246)КаÑ�ÑŒ (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/739948)Harr (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1077180)elen (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/301901)
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