Sweating and clothes..

[dougz]

Just took my "ready" pack for another 3 mile walk..

It was -15C (5F) with some gusting wind, but I was working up a fair sweat at the small of my back and armpits..

It got me to thinking..

It's important to stay dry to prevent chills when you slow down, right?

I was wearing a cotton tee-shirt..

But I DO have poly (or are they rayon? synthetic, anyways) "base layer" thermal long johns that are SUPPOSED to wick away the moisture from your skin..

Does anyone have any experience with this kind of clothing?

Does it work?

Or should I just take it off and put on something dry when I'm done with the activitiesthat are making me sweat?

I had a synthetic shirt that I got from Coast Mountain Sports that the guy said would keep me cooler than a cotton one would..

Ya right!!!!

Sweated like a mother in that %$#@! thing..

More fool, I..

But I thought it'd work good in the winter..

Or would it?

Maybe that's going to make me sweat more than I would normally, too..

I'd take the thermal underwear on a trial run, but it's all snug in it's original wrapping.. :)

Hate trying to get stuff as compact and squared away as when I first buy it.. LOL

Oh well, I guess there's only one way to find out..

But I'd appreciate some input!

[Riverrat]

For me, I just slow down, I try not to sweat, if I start then I will stop and rest for a few. I just wear a t-shirt under a sweater(wool) and if it is real cold a coat over these. The only way I have found to stop sweating is to slow down when you start.

[dougz]

Yeah, good plan..

But this was an aerobic workout for me, so the plan was to keep up a brisk pace..

My question was more wether this synthetic stuff actually does what it says it does and pulls the sweat away from your body..

Like I say, I trial run may be my only recourse to know for sure..

If it doesn't, a change of shirt would probably be the best solution, or go all Survivorman and strip till the sweat dries.. LOL

[crashdive123]

Peeling a layer off may help to prevent sweating when you're exerting yourself, of as Riverrat says, slow down a bit. I always liked (no need for it now) polypopylene for my bottom layer.

[MCBushbaby]

I wore the ECWCS Layers II and III in a 70 deg house this afternoon and was torso sweating. Polypro kept me dry as a bone and I could feel the wicking result on the outside of the base layer. Even though expedition-weight polypro isn't supposed to cool, I didn't feel as overheated as I should have felt... what with wearing wool field pants, socks, and a 300-weight pile jacket. Yay synthetics!

[dougz]

Peeling a layer off may help to prevent sweating when you're exerting yourself

Yeah, I would have, but I only had the cotton tee shirt, then my winter coat (see my blog).. :)

Need to layer better, me thinks..

Maybe instead I should just wear the synthetic base layer, then a synthetic shirt, then a microfleece light jacket..

Do you still feel wet when you sweat in the poly. bottom layer, Crash?

[crashdive123]

Do you still feel wet when you sweat in the poly. bottom layer, Crash?

Hiking I never did. Snow skiing was another story all toghther.

[red lake]

DO NOT WEAR COTTON T-SHIRT.

Base Poly Pro layer or Wool, preferably Merino Wool
Next Layer should be insulating so use a Fleece or Wool
Next Layer should be breathable so try something in Wool
The colder it gets just add more layers of a nice breathable fabric such as Wool.
If it is cold and windy a cotton Anorak like the ones from Empire Canvas do the job.

When you work you sweat, the secret is to let the sweat naturally expel without sitting on the skin. Even wet wool is insulating. Wool is a miracle fabric that helps you regulate your body temperature naturally.

[dougz]

Ouch.. $230 for an anorak..

Maybe one day.. :)

I'll take the base layer out for a trial when it cools down again..

I got them from Mark's Work Warehouse, the bottoms are Carhartt Work Dry Mid weight Thermal, 100% polyester..

Wonder how that differs from polypropylene..

I was warm and cozy in the snow pants, so I don't think I'd ever wear anything under them..

I'd probably just wear them to sleep..

The top is Dakota driWear, 66% micro-nylon, 21% micro-polyester, 13% spandex..

The fleece shirt/jacket is North Face, 100% polyester.

[red lake]

I know, I am going to try to sew my own. Just trying to source the fabric. Things are all mail order up here so I need to be sure before I order it.

But wool is the key. There is very little variance in what I wear from -5 C to -35 C. Wool just regulates and that is what you need. We were out all day today and it was very very warm at around -10 to -5 C and we trudged through deep fluffy snow on snowshoes and yet when I came home I was not all wet and cold. Wool, I can't say enough about it.

Check out the trip report http://wintertrekking.com/index.php?topic=225.msg1480#new

The guy I was out with today took some great pictures of a Lynx.

[dougz]

Thanks for the link!

[LostOutrider]

DO NOT WEAR COTTON T-SHIRT.

(and other smart things)

I was about to hammer that when I read down and Red did it for me - so I'll quote for truth.

Cotton kills.

When I'm backpacking, no matter what the season, I don't have a single thread of cotton on me. Even in the hottest, most humid summer it is a misery to wear. Get below freezing and you're begging for hypothermia.

[tsitenha]

I found in winter that dressing in layers and slightly under-dressing to keep a even body functioning heat level. When I slowed down for a time add a layer or if I made camp (work) peel off a layer, always adjusting to the work load demand.
Wool is a great help if you can stand it or afford the higher softer kinds. Synthetics offer a good compramise (fishnet style with a large open weave)

[dougz]

Even in the hottest, most humid summer it is a misery to wear.

I would disagree with that..

Like I say, that synthetic tee I got from that Coast Mountain store was misery this summer..

Sweated like a whore in church..

Gimme a loose-weave cotton shirt in those conditions any day, if that's what I can expect from synthetic fibers..

It may be just the thing in winter, or will make me sweat more than I normally would, too..

One way to find out..

[crashdive123]

Loose fitting cotton in hot and humid climates is the way to go IMO. Keeps you much cooler than synthetics.

[dougz]

Keeps you much cooler than synthetics

Yup..

That $#@! Coast Mountain guy sold me up the river!!!!

[MCBushbaby]

I don't know what you're talking about when you recommend wool over polypro for a base layer! Even when I was pro-Goodwill vs. the techie fabrics (goretek, polypro) I was still recommending polypro as a base layer. Polypro wicks and keep you dry, wool wicks (kinda) but won't keep you dry. Albeit it is better than cotton longjohns, polypro has superior wicking capabilities.

[red lake]

I don't know what you're talking about when you recommend wool over polypro for a base layer! Even when I was pro-Goodwill vs. the techie fabrics (goretek, polypro) I was still recommending polypro as a base layer. Polypro wicks and keep you dry, wool wicks (kinda) but won't keep you dry. Albeit it is better than cotton longjohns, polypro has superior wicking capabilities.

http://www.merino-wool-underwear.com/wool_functions.html

Natural Fabrics do what synthetics can do, but better

[wildWoman]

You really don't need to spend oodles of $$ to dress properly in the winter. As others have said, do not wear cotton.
Go to a second hand store and get yourself a gore-tex jacket (preferably unlined) and a pair of gore-tex pants, or similar material. They won't be waterproof anymore in all likelyhood, that's okay. You can use them as excellent windbreakers and snowshedders in the winter, and depening on the temperatures, they'll still "breathe" somewhat.
I never wear a winter jacket unless it's down below -25C, you just sweat too much, even if you move at snail's pace. I find for walking, getting firewood etc the following outfit works well down to about -25C, depending on the windchill:
long underwear (artificial fibres), fleece pants, wool sweater, gore-tex jacket and (below -10C) gore-tex pants. The wind-proof pants will make you feel a lot warmer, I find, without having to add more layers to the upper body. That entire outfit cost me under $40.-

[DOGMAN]

Mushing is a tricky winter activity, because at the start of the outing you do alot of moving around and lifting, and manual labor to get the dogs all hooked up- this get you sweating and damp. Then you stand on the runners for several hours barely moving, and that dampness then invades your comfort level, and causes you to get cold.

I don't think there is a perfect fabric or combination of materials that are perfect for all situations. Day-to-Day I wear polypro long underware bottoms, and a polypro zip neck top. But, I am coming home and can change eventually, and so I don't mind that eventually during my day they are going to get a little damp due to persperation. They can get a little moist during physical exertion. But, they still have warming properties and they don't get clingy and dangerous like cotton.

But, over several days of wearing the same pair on a winter camping trip, and sleeping in them and then just quickly getting dressed, and never having them truly dry-out they do get a little less than ideal, they stay damp and clamy...but still have insulating properties. Its hard to ever get real warm and comfortable with them, once they are damp- unless your moving. But, if your stopped (or just standing on the runners of a dog-sled) then the dampness adds a little chill to you.
This is the situation that calls for a wool union suit! For prolonged life out in really cold weather (I mean days- not hours) than wool is awesome. Silk is also very nice! Ultra light weight silk long johns, underneath a wool unionsuit is just awesome.

Another thing I do for moisture control is I spinkle a mix of baby powder and cornstarch on my chest, my trunk and berries, and my underarms- this really aids in moisture control.

Lastly, I always stay on top of my heat management, by taking off my gloves and cap, and opening up my coat or anorak when exerting myself. Then once I stop the exertion, I instantly put them back-on. Its amazing how you can control your persperation on your torso, by taking off the hat and gloves.

[dougz]

Go to a second hand store and get yourself a gore-tex jacket (preferably unlined)

I have one, actually (the outer jacket of a 3 in 1 Goretex jacket)..

Got it on sale, of course, as it was just the liner..

Been wearing it for years, works great..

Never thought to use it as part of a layering system, though, thanks!


The wind-proof pants will make you feel a lot warmer, I find

Agreed.. The snow pants I have have a soft synthetic fuzz lining, and I don't even wear anything under them besides boxer-briefs..

I'll see about finding a wool sweater..

[Sourdough]

Mushing is a tricky winter activity, because at the start of the outing you do alot of moving around and lifting, and manual labor to get the dogs all hooked up- this get you sweating and damp. Then you stand on the runners for several hours barely moving, and that dampness then invades your comfort level, and causes you to get cold.

I don't think there is a perfect fabric or combination of materials that are perfect for all situations. Day-to-Day I wear polypro long underware bottoms, and a polypro zip neck top. But, I am coming home and can change eventually, and so I don't mind that eventually during my day they are going to get a little damp due to persperation. They can get a little moist during physical exertion. But, they still have warming properties and they don't get clingy and dangerous like cotton.

But, over several days of wearing the same pair on a winter camping trip, and sleeping in them and then just quickly getting dressed, and never having them truly dry-out they do get a little less than ideal, they stay damp and clamy...but still have insulating properties. Its hard to ever get real warm and comfortable with them, once they are damp- unless your moving. But, if your stopped (or just standing on the runners of a dog-sled) then the dampness adds a little chill to you.
This is the situation that calls for a wool union suit! For prolonged life out in really cold weather (I mean days- not hours) than wool is awesome. Silk is also very nice! Ultra light weight silk long johns, underneath a wool unionsuit is just awesome.

Another thing I do for moisture control is I spinkle a mix of baby power and cornstarch on my chest, my trunk and berries, and my underarms- this really aids in moisture control.

Lastly, I always stay on top of my heat management, by taking off my gloves and cap, and opening up my coat or anorak when exerting myself. Then once I stop the exertion, I instantly put them back-on. Its amazing how you can control your persperation on your torso, by taking off the hat and gloves.


Jason you get an A+ (People you just can not beat Boots in the Field)

It is time for New Years Resolutions, please make one; "To spend more time with your boots in the FIELD"...........:)

[SARKY]

If you can't slow down then what you need to do is dress in clothing that you can vent ie. a button down or zippered outer shell. open it up as needed to keep you cooler and when you slow down or stop you just zip it back up. I've done a lot of winter snowshoe treking and i've foud this to be the best way to regulate my temperature,

[LostOutrider]

Loose fitting cotton in hot and humid climates is the way to go IMO. Keeps you much cooler than synthetics.

The problem with even loose fitting cotton is that once you soak it with sweat or get caught in a downpour - it just doesn't ever dry and you're stuck with a sticky, soggy, sweaty, uncomfortable shirt on. A nice 100% poly T will wick the sweat away and dry almost instantly. I'll jump into any swimming hole we find, and I can come out of there soaking wet - put my clothes on - and just the way the fabric wicks will have me nearly dry by the time I'm ready to shoulder up the pack.

Everybody has a preference, I guess. I prefer to stay as dry as possible in any weather.


Edited to add: We are talking different climates, though. My experience with prolonged treks into the cold never happens below 0F. 30-40 degrees is more the norm which is what. . . summer to most of you people?

[dougz]

If you can't slow down then what you need to do is dress in clothing that you can vent

Yup, I'm going to try wearing a layering system next time out, rather than just a winter jacket..

I'll let you guys know how I make out..


A nice 100% poly T will wick the sweat away and dry almost instantly.

All I know is the 100% poly shirt I wore in Ukraine in summer (HUMID!) made me sweat as soon as I put it on.. Maybe it wicked it away and dried, but I couldn't tell, as I was wet from sweat the whole time I had it on! LOL

It didn't breathe at all, and kept my body heat IN (great for winter, I guess)..

As soon as I ripped it off and put on a cotton shirt I was fine..

[DOGMAN]

All I know is the 100% poly shirt I wore in Ukraine in summer (HUMID!) made me sweat as soon as I put it on.. Maybe it wicked it away and dried, but I couldn't tell, as I was wet from sweat the whole time I had it on! LOL

It didn't breathe at all, and kept my body heat IN (great for winter, I guess)..

As soon as I ripped it off and put on a cotton shirt I was fine..

Not all Poly is the same. There are different weaves. I have a real tight weave poly shirt (North Face) that is brushed smooth on the outside, and that thing is a sauna- I hate it.

For the best winter wicking type Poly, I like ones that the inside of the shirt are looser weave, then the outside of the shirt is a tighter horizontal weave. Those transfer moisture well, and are generally warm.

When buying polypro- read the tag. Most will say what the entended use of the garment is, and the ideal use. Obviously if your wearing extreme poly designed for arctic temperatures and stationary activities- it isn't going to work well if your cross-country skiing in New Mexico in March.

On the flipside- your going to freeze if your ice fishing with HopeAk in January and your wearing poly designed for fall time bicycling.

[MCBushbaby]

http://www.merino-wool-underwear.com/wool_functions.html

Natural Fabrics do what synthetics can do, but better

haha, that link says nothing. And what the hell is this: Ballistic protection (?!)

I highly contest the "Natural Fabrics do what synthetics can do, but better" statement. I'll accept "some natural fabrics do what synthetics can do" but until you come up with a natural fiber that acts like Gore-Tex, you're pissing in the wind my friend.

Don't get me wrong, I love natural fibers. They're cheap to buy, last a long time, most scorch instead of melt, can can be bought everywhere. But now that I own a few choice synthetic layers, I INSTANTLY appreciate the improvements.

[DOGMAN]

haha, that link says nothing. And what the hell is this: Ballistic protection (?!)

I highly contest the "Natural Fabrics do what synthetics can do, but better" statement. I'll accept "some natural fabrics do what synthetics can do" but until you come up with a natural fiber that acts like Gore-Tex, you're pissing in the wind my friend.

Don't get me wrong, I love natural fibers. They're cheap to buy, last a long time, most scorch instead of melt, can can be bought everywhere. But now that I own a few choice synthetic layers, I INSTANTLY appreciate the improvements.

I understand what your saying. But, ultimatly I have to disagree. Go visit the natives that live around Hudson Bay, and Churchill, Manitoba. Or, any of the other arctic regions of the world. No synthetic material can compete with fur. Period.
Also, a problem I see in your philosophy is your buying cheap natural fibers. Good silk long johns, and quality wool is more expensive than synthetics and can last a lifetime. And is hands down warmer, after days and days of continued use, without washing.
Most anyone who lives and works outside in extreme cold temperatures and is out for prolonged periods has alot of good wool.
Recreationist (climbers, skiers, etc..) choose synthetics, but those that have to be outside in all weather still wear alot of wool, silk, and yes canvas.

[MCBushbaby]

I think people around the Hudson Bay choose natural fibers because it's easier to get. Shoot a moose, make a coat, voila. Verses paying $600 for a "The North Face arctic parka". I think the whole matter is entirely subjective. Unless we can equip a single people with 100% naturals one time, and with 100% synthetics another, and throw him into the bush, we can't really compare.

[DOGMAN]

I think people around the Hudson Bay choose natural fibers because it's easier to get. Shoot a moose, make a coat, voila. Verses paying $600 for a "The North Face arctic parka". I think the whole matter is entirely subjective. Unless we can equip a single people with 100% naturals one time, and with 100% synthetics another, and throw him into the bush, we can't really compare.

Actually, Mitch I can compare. I have run dogs with Athabaskans along the Yukon, and I've run dogs with folks from Hudson Bay. They choose Fur- not because of ease of getting stuff- but, because it is better. They've had all the best of the synthetics, and for awhile they believed the hype, but after they got cold they went back to the traditonal stuff. Same with me.
All, I can say is spend some more time wet and cold. You'll survive in your synthetics....but you will thrive in the naturals. This opinion doesnt come from going on an afternoon hike in the woods outside of town, this opinion was developed from freezing my arse off while working in hunting camps deep in Wilderness areas for weeks at a time, without the ability to change clothes.
I'd be freezing in my great new synthetic Patagonia and North Face stuff, and the old timers would be laughing at me in in their decades old Woolens, and silk.
Have you ever lived out of a tent at below zero temps for over two weeks straight with only one pair of clothes? I am willing to bet the answer is no.

[tsitenha]

Some years ago the Canadian Govt did some test on arctic wear and Inuit fur clothes won hands down, not even close.

[MCBushbaby]

Again, subjective subject. I would like to see that report though, seems like a good read nevertheless.

[DOGMAN]

I disagree. its not subjective. I have no favoritism or bias. I just like to stay warm, and after years and years of doing field research, I've found what works. I spare no expense at staying warm- I'll do what ever it takes, because I've frozen my booty off so many times. Finally, I started looking at what people around me were wearing who'd been living outside all there lives, and I realized that wool, silk, and fur is how you stay warm under all circumstances.
Believe me, I've tried every kind of syntetic out there, and for day trips or even overnighters I'll wear poly, fleece, nylon etc... but if I am going to be out for a week straight (or longer) natural materials are going to be abundant.

[dougz]

Can you guys provide some links to EXACTLY the wool garments you are talking about, brand names and all?

I've been doing some googling and am getting nowhere, fast!

I found this kind of stuff, but seems pretty expensive..

http://www.justincharles.com/thermalwear.aspx

Also, I'd greatly appreciate some examples of layering systems, from base layer to outer garments, natural or synthetic..

[MCBushbaby]

Well I'm not 100% synthetic, fyi. I still wear wool field pants, wool socks, and a wool sweater for a mid-layer addition. But as my own personal experience runs, I've found the following to be quite sufficient in winter survival trips:

base: expedition-weight polypro wicking layer (ECWCS Layer II)
mid: fleece pile jacket/sweater (ECWCS Layer III)
mid +1: wool military sweater (USGI field sweater)
outer: fleece or nylon goretex windproof/waterproof shell
hands - wool mitten liner + leather palmed, goretex mitten shell. --OR-- The North Face Apex Bionic waterproof/windproof mittens for 0-40 degF weather
feet - Wool socks (cheap, from Dunham's Sports) + full grain leather boot (scarpa SL M3)
head - Polartek beanie (Mountain Hard Wear Dome Perignon) + wool balaclava (cheap from goodwill) + homemade fleece neck gaiter

This simple setup has kept me warm down to -20 nights in a lean-to shelter.
I have tried different base layers and outer layers but synthetics just work better for me, thus the subjective nature. It all depends on how you work, your environment, the temps, the humidity, and how much you beat up your clothes.

EDIT: with the mix of synth/natural, I stay dry and warm with articles that pack easily and are lightweight. With the shell I am waterproof and will willingly walk through a windstorm above the treeline

[DOGMAN]

I have a wool union suit that I love, pretty heavy weight, brand Pennmans
I have a lighter weight one from Stanfield. I have a pair of wool two piece long handles from Smart Wool, they are there "first layer, no itch series" (I think thats what they are called) Also, have a pair of merino wool long johns from Filson.

For wool pants I have a pair of Filson mackinaw bibs, I have a of pair of cheaper Codet pants, and I have a pair of Woolrich malones.

I have several different brands of wool fishermen sweaters, my favorite is a 20 year old LL bean.

My favorite wool thing- my Lobben wool boots.
Also, I have a Filson double mackinaw coat- super warm.

[red lake]

Not subjective at all. It is known that Gortex does not work below freezing.

I spent $350 on moose hide mukluks.
Wool pants are $100 a pair plus the $40 for the suspenders to make them function the way they should.
Merino Wool base layers are amongst the most expensive there is.
Wool and fur is not cheaper. And where do you think the Northerners get their wool from. Ain't no sheep farms up here.

It is fine you think that goretex and poly pro synthetics are better, you wear them. I have tried that route and in cold conditions, which is the subject of this thread and it is something I spend lots of time in, and I will stick to what my experiences have shown to work.

[DOGMAN]

those wool long johns you linked to dougz look pretty nice too. I'll try to google up some links

[MCBushbaby]

It is known that Gortex does not work below freezing.

You need to clarify this generalization. GoreTex stops becoming breathable below freezing because air that cold won't pick up water vapor. However it is still Waterproof and Windproof and flexible. Anything that claims breathability (natural or synthetic) used as a shell below freezing has the same issue.

[red lake]

I am told these are the best
http://bigbill.com/CANADA/pages/VIRGIN_WOOL.html

I have these though and like the fact they are a little more durable and the side pockets are big and functional.
http://bigbill.com/CANADA/pages/234.html

boots are from www.mukluks.com
www.eglifarm.com is a good source for these items as well as other great leather, wool and fur goodies

[DOGMAN]

This combo is awesome.

http://www.weaverdevore.ca/product_info.php/products_id/216
Great wool union suit, I wear ultralight weight silk long johns under this

http://www.wintersilks.com/viewproduct.aspx?BRANCH=1~10~&ProductDisplayID=732&dept=Silk+Long+Underwear-mens+lightweight&prod=

[DOGMAN]

Nice links there red lake, those wool pants look nice

[red lake]

You need to clarify this generalization. GoreTex stops becoming breathable below freezing because air that cold won't pick up water vapor. However it is still Waterproof and Windproof and flexible. Anything that claims breathability (natural or synthetic) used as a shell below freezing has the same issue.

Wool is breathable and water resistant well below -40. Wool is wind proof too. Think of your wool pants you claim to have. Ever notice how they block the wind for a loose woven fabric?

Goretex loses it's breathability and it is not wet from rain that you are concerned about. You might as well be wearing rubber.

[red lake]

One other thing about wool, trying getting a few sparks on your $600 patagonia coat, Wool you can sit almost right on top of a fire

[MCBushbaby]

Red, I don't want to get into specifics but I have to prevent viewer confusion.

GoreTek is a flexible, lightweight membrane that is 100% waterproof and windproof. It features microscopic pores that allow water vapor to pass through (breathable) and acts on the principle that the exterior air will accept water vapor (osmosis I believe?). In arctic conditions, winter air will not accept water vapor and so GoreTek will not pass interior water vapor to the outside. If it is raining the ambient air temperature will allow GoreTek to function as a breathable membrane, so it is in no way comparable to wearing a rubber sheet.

Wool, as with any woven (non-membrane) fabric, is breathable but DOES NOT work on the same principle as membranes. Compare skin and leather to GoreTek, compare wool and cotton to fleece. Leather is no longer breathable at or below freezing based on the same principle as GoreTek.

Wool IS NOT windproof. Wool is wind RESISTANT and much more so than standard fleece but it absorbs water and takes much longer to dry than fleece (also water resistant but dries faster). Wool scorches when exposed to flame while most synthetics melt. So if you are near a campfire, wear an outer layer of wool (a sweater will work fine).

[RichNH]

Wow, this is pretty active. OK, here's what I've found works for me.

First, nothing is going to stop you from sweating when your body needs to shed heat, hyou just have to get used to that. You can only help it shed heat faster by taking off layers, opening vents, etc. I do hiking on a small mountain close to here called Mt Monadnock (one of the most climbed mountains in the world). When I go hiking I always carry a pack with enough stuff in it to stay out overnight if necessary. It's "heavy" and this means a lot of sweat. I used to wear the polypro/fleece with windproof layer over it but as you noted, you get wet.

What I do now is wear a layer of polypro/techwic base layer then fleece over that. I may wear more than one layer of fleece. I do not put on the windproof layer until I can feel the wind driving all the way to the skin. The idea is this, wick the sweat away from the skin and then let the wind take the vapor. Works pretty good for me. One other thing. I don't wear cotton underwear at all, ever, when hiking, especially in the winter. I'll either wear nothing under the base layer or I'll wear an old nylon speedo (there's an image for ya!). Much more comfortable.

Now here's an issue you need to keep in mind. Different locations require different solutions. For instance. I live in New England, I tell people who are just getting into the outdoors to stay away from goose down for winter use. It's a great insulator right up to the point where it gets wet and then you're screwed. The weather we have around here is far too changeable to assume that it won't rain at any given point over a few days period.

However, in a place where you can expect it to stay below freezing for long periods of time such as further north or further inland then I think goose down would be an excellent choice (I don't have any specific knowledge to back that up, don't live in those areas, but its what I heard).

Another thing you may want to think about is this. The synthetics like polypro and fleece are actually plastic in nature. When they are exposed to heat, they melt. Wool won't melt, it singes. If you are in a situation where you'll be tending a fire or exposed to heat in some fashion, a wool outer layer
is a great idea because of this. Fires throw sparks and other things happen too. Better to have a singed sleeve than a sleeve with a hole in it where the fleece melted away. So while I like fleece, I always try to keep a wool sweater handy.

Rich

[dougz]

This combo is awesome.

http://www.weaverdevore.ca/product_i...roducts_id/216
Great wool union suit, I wear ultralight weight silk long johns under this

http://www.wintersilks.com/viewprodu...htweight&prod=

Ok, so silk base layer, heavy wool thermal layer.. What goes over top of that, Jason?

A light, breathable wind/rain jacket?

Could you link a good one of those?

Would it be something like Red linked (see below)?



I have these though and like the fact they are a little more durable and the side pockets are big and functional.
http://bigbill.com/CANADA/pages/234.html

I don't think I'd have to wear anything for long john pants, like I say, I'm pretty snug just with underwear and snow pants.. But that's only with being active in -25C.. Dunno how I'd be in colder weather and little or no activity..

Great comments, Rich, thanks!

I'll definitely be getting a wool outer jacket..

Maybe like the one Red linked?

Thoughts?

Thanks for your input, too, Mitch..

Great to hear from both sides of the fence..

[MCBushbaby]

Maybe two midweight midlayers. Would allow you to adjust for overheating since you are worried about sweating.

EDIT: nevermind, it's a one-piece wool suit. But if you go for the top-only approach, I'd say a double layer.

[dougz]

I went out cross-country skiing today in -5C/23F, with sun and no wind..

I wore a poly tee-shirt and a poly fleece jacket over that..

Poly hat, poly liner gloves, snow pants, wool socks..

I got sweaty, because I wasn't paying attention and should have took off my gloves, jacket and hat alot sooner..

It did dry eventually, but it got pretty clammy when I had to stop for bits to help the kids get their skis back on, etc..

This will be quite the learning curve! :)

I'm going to go out tomorrow in -10, -15C (14F, 5F), no wind.

I'll try wearing the Dakota driwear top that I bought at Mark's a few weeks ago:

http://www2.marks.com/productdetails.asp?categoryID=-99&terms=driwear&href=/ctwnew/markprod.nsf/ProductListByID/7D1373B6602542D1802574E500084E78?OpenDocument

Then 2 polyester fleece jackets.. Wear one, have the other around the waist for if and when I stop moving..

I'll see how that works out..

But yeah, looks like I should look into some wool options, for sure, and work on my sweat management..

[RichNH]

You know, part of it is just getting accustomed to the experience of doing physical activities in an unfamiliar setting. If you engage in significant physical activities outside in the winter, face it, you're going to get moist. The trick is to learn how to adjust your clothing (and what clothing to have) so that when it comes time, you can readjust your clothing so as to minimize the threat of life and limb.

Once, many years ago, I was on an exercise in the White Mountains with my unit. We were working against the 82nd Airborne Division. Due to the stupidity of one of the senior sargents on the team (who should have known better) I wound up swimming this river called Wild River in early May, towards the end of the Spring melt. Nevermind the fact that I almost didn't make it across. AFTER I got across I had to strip down completely (while hiding in a swamp) and wring out all my clothes using the trees. I was lucky, the temps were in the 50's that day (even though there was still snow and ice in areas.

The point of all of this is that there are times when you are simply going to get wet, no matter if from sweat or a dunk in the creek or what. Part of your plan should also be what to do and how to respond if you *do* become wet, even massively wet due to a dunking.

Rich

PS, one positive aspect of swimming that river, I didn't smell as bad after the fact.

[ClayPick]

I’ve got a bunch of winter clothes, all of it low end and mostly wool stuff from the good will shop. What to throw on for the weather is the dilemma. This is off topic and sweating could be an issue but I would like to try one.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Search/1097649.html

[dougz]

I would like to try one

Huh..

Interesting... :)

[dougz]

I went cross-country skiing today, with the 3 layers as described in my earlier post..

Worked great!

It was -15C, with light snow, no wind..

The "driwear" base layer top kept me dry, and my second and 3rd layers were the items that got wet with sweat..

I took both top layers off, and I was steaming, but dry!

Definately better than that polyester shirt that I had on the other day..

I should have put my 2nd and 3rd layers back ON sooner, though..

They were COLD after about 10 minutes.. LOL

So all in all I'm quite impressed with this layering thing.. :)

[RichNH]

It's a beautiful thing, isn't it? :-)

Went hiking with my daughters today on a small hill near here. What impressed me was the amount of damage in the woods from our recent ice storm. For clothes I had on a speedo swimsuit, then a pair of nylon hiking pants. On the top I had a long sleeve techwick shirt then a medium fleece sweat shirt.

I wore a pair of ski socks with my old pair of Hermon Survivor boots.

I got soaked with sweat and the boots leaked. But it was in the low 50's and I had an additional complete layer in the pack with spare dry soaks. Never put them on.

Rich

[dougz]

Yes, it sure beats a single heavy winter jacket over a cotton shirt, as you have options this way, and even if you do get wet, it's wicked away to the outer layers..

Great stuff..

[red lake]

For clothes I had on a speedo swimsuit, then a pair of nylon hiking pants.
Really? This is a joke right!?

[crashdive123]

What? TMI????

[RichNH]

Red Lake,

:D No joke. I wear speedo swim suits at times when hiking. I have an old one that I use for underpants when hiking. If it gets wet from sweat it doesn't feel clammy and it dries fairly quickly. Its comfortable to wear so I wear it. The pants are standard zip off hiking trousers from EMS which I find very comfortable. As I mentioned it was warm today, in the low 50's so I didn't wear anything else below the belt. If it had become colder I had a pair of insulated Gortex ski pants in my pack that would have served nicely into the low 20's at least.

Rich

[AKOutlander]

GoreTek is a flexible, lightweight membrane that is 100% waterproof and windproof. It features microscopic pores that allow water vapor to pass through (breathable) and acts on the principle that the exterior air will accept water vapor (osmosis I believe?). In arctic conditions, winter air will not accept water vapor and so GoreTek will not pass interior water vapor to the outside. If it is raining the ambient air temperature will allow GoreTek to function as a breathable membrane, so it is in no way comparable to wearing a rubber sheet.


Liquid water molecules are held together by hydrogen bonds and the molecules are too large to pass through the pores in the Gortex, where as with water vapor this is not an issue. Wow, I hope that doesn't make me sound like a shmuck.

I have been on a few trips to Greenland and never had a problem with Gortex. Lightweight polys under the Gortex ECWS worked very well. I never had an issue with build up inside the jacket, although after a few minutes of skiing, I was unzipping my jacket. I had a small thermometer that went to -25, but it froze....LOL, so who knows how cold it was.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

�рка (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/640)212.9 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/896)у�ил (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/196)Stor (http://eyesvisions.com)Шейн (http://factoringfee.ru/t/679277)Кра� (http://filmzones.ru/t/223806)Кана (http://gadwall.ru/t/313229)Isla (http://gaffertape.ru/t/554866)Ashq (http://gageboard.ru/t/771225)Сапа (http://gagrule.ru/t/295719)XVII (http://gallduct.ru/t/774930)Leif (http://galvanometric.ru/t/361588)Капа (http://gangforeman.ru/t/286011)Крат (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/414814)�ико (http://garbagechute.ru/t/941939)
унив (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/248866)Ð*аÑ�к (http://gascautery.ru/t/817248)Ñ�цен (http://gashbucket.ru/t/299104)англ (http://gasreturn.ru/t/817195)Кита (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/559179)ЛÑ�ше (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/816648)Clif (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/751543)Гамп (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/673975)John (http://geartreating.ru/t/574500)Tesc (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/567171)Vers (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/558926)Vill (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/559578)Ñ�ерт (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/139512)Plan (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/139573)Palm (http://getthebounce.ru/t/138317)
кате (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/642998)пчел (http://habituate.ru/t/671552)Gill (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/353615)�ико (http://hackworker.ru/t/669693)Czar (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/627042)Coli (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/639500)OLAY (http://hailsquall.ru/t/139891)Gill (http://hairysphere.ru/t/449668)Spic (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561287)Rene (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562252)�ерт (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/562400)Gill (http://haltstate.ru/t/449698)Dove (http://handcoding.ru/t/571494)Chri (http://handportedhead.ru/t/835011)Head (http://handradar.ru/t/561657)
PSFF (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/138160)ветр (http://hangonpart.ru/t/296067)Чере (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/470258)Jean (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/350067)Jeha (http://hardasiron.ru/t/348679)Remi (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/566487)ВВин (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/391438)incl (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/140933)иллю (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/478793)DISC (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/497868)Chri (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/158520)Chri (http://headregulator.ru/t/302012)Ð*иÑ�у (http://heartofgold.ru/t/657839)wwwg (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/348786)Didi (http://heatinggas.ru/t/692616)
Wind (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/615573)Sela (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/602489)Luxo (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/601362)Niki (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/602302)Sela (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603041)Quik (http://jobstress.ru/t/603012)Dick (http://jogformation.ru/t/607453)Disc (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/631592)Ð*кÑ�Ñ‚ (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/755441)ДетÑ� (http://journallubricator.ru/t/279126)Tatu (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/527908)XVII (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/358136)Йонн (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/339525)Ñ�кла (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/343451)Jame (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/343180)
Roac (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/638308)2110 (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/609828)Прик (http://kentishglory.ru/t/654175)Сенк (http://kerbweight.ru/t/479646)ТУ�т (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/388355)Stan (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/334480)Х�ки (http://keyserum.ru/t/660618)R-1S (http://kickplate.ru/t/157747)Zone (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/604758)кара (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/605563)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/608847)кора (http://kinozones.ru/film/5536)Glam (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/610761)Zone (http://kneejoint.ru/t/604872)Zone (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/611646)
мен� (http://knockonatom.ru/t/606960)кара (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/604673)Murp (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/654912)Pete (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/882281)03-0 (http://laborracket.ru/t/157925)Дуди (http://labourearnings.ru/t/300164)Digi (http://labourleasing.ru/t/463751)рома (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/765072)канд (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/667402)Яро� (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/764403)Прок (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/757581)Mise (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/469284)ин�т (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/293549)Плот (http://laggingload.ru/t/421610)Char (http://laissezaller.ru/t/468564)
науч (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/300133)Леон (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/342568)одна (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/479847)Trac (http://lamphouse.ru/t/535934)Шири (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/463268)Фе�у (http://lancingdie.ru/t/285611)�тра (http://landingdoor.ru/t/391492)Чи�т (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/676097)Иохи (http://landreform.ru/t/670840)Niel (http://landuseratio.ru/t/469087)�ови (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/676206)XVII (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159966)Вм�т (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/151984)PCIe (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1745)Патр (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589166)

[yellowcab]

TORX (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031263)ndas (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453647)Dolb (http://layabout.ru/shop/99515)Gore (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/24664)Robe (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/67861)Disn (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/181276)Jard (http://leaveword.ru/shop/145096)Иван (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/69903)When (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/194510)Situ (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/145747)Bonu (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/55301)Mist (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/268079)Кита (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/154877)Gise (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159194)Gera (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/612968)
де�т (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/468252)тера (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/696)Neth (http://mp3lists.ru/item/5008)�рти (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/144790)NDFE (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/103927)�зык (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/448972)кра� (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/176269)�зык (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/21981)�зык (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100470)lamp (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/123353)Hear (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/27358)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/176407)Post (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/97984)Carc (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108146)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/95961)
Rowe (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98004)Bvlg (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570074)Plan (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/1149884)Ð*уда (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147387)ФМДо (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/199346)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30704)Sony (http://onesticket.ru/shop/378737)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/579048)Adag (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585691)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/201131)Down (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204360)Anci (http://papercoating.ru/shop/580191)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684448)авто (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165781)Ð�ким (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165842)
Corb (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1077249)Галк (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167572)ПоÑ�л (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1214565)Jule (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/153983)Ð*озе (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/593370)куль (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/591073)Шури (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/124770)Ð�вха (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1070421)Dani (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/124636)Заха (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/80946)Киел (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/337770)акад (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/509032)Таба (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/634990)Wind (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/134450)Take (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/125952)
Шири (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/173258)Char (http://rearchain.ru/shop/337608)Time (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/512978)от�т (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/14451)Jenn (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1047207)Скре (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058527)зерн (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1067889)Тигр (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692279)Youn (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1208163)Пахн (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120678)DrWe (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1320979)XVII (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1038655)ребе (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1064395)худо (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1406533)Fall (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1417299)
пути (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1432970)OZON (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1449774)Robe (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1487602)авто (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/172305)Цвет (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/247801)Круг (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/265062)Дь�ч (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/41048)�ерт (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/48479)Топо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398300)Ветр (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/69424)PCIe (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1745)PCIe (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1745)PCIe (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1745)поле (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/460489)Yann (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/488414)
урок (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82378)изда (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/83844)авто (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484680)худо (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496461)пи�а (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1814027)авто (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/620163)кара (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/619955)Колп (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/267053)заве (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/398283)Собо (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/937236)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Дави (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/462759)Тенч (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475655)