Bush Panic & Psychology

[Dennis K.]

"Bush Panic" - No, this is not about politics....

In the season premiere of Survivorman, LS talks about the panic that can set in as a person realizes they are lost. He mentions a feeling of claustrophobia, and how simply finding a clearing can provide some mental comfort.
These rang a bell with me - I have sensed that panic and claustrophobia, although never to the extreme of full-blown terror or losing a sense of what is rational. I can see exactly where that feeling comes from. (the sun went down faster than I expected - the trail is just over there - crap - its dark - the trail is supposed to be here - oh sh!t)
I also think I have a good plan to to deal with it, should I ever be faced with that situation.

Some of you have worked SAR - obviously, the worst case scenario is when a person panics to the point of where they are incapable of rational thought - like a drowning person who fights their rescuer - and the end result is their ultimate return to nature.
Lifeguards are prepared for the fight with a drowning victim. How does SAR prepare for an irrational / panicky person in the bush? If you are in a group, how do you head off the panic in someone else? Are there observable degrees of panic? and how do you keep an eye on yourself? (after all, psychology is a strange thing - even the most prepared can 'lose it').
Panic kills. What do you do?

[pgvoutdoors]

One thing I teach in my Outdoor Leadership classes is that a leader must not only be knowledgeable but be able to convey his thoughts in a manner that the average person can believe in and trust.

Example: If a group gets lost, soon a debate will accrue about which way to go. If a leader is confident in his navigation skills and feels he can get the group back on track, he must be able to explain his logic so that the group feels comfortable in following him. People need that comfort zone to remain calm and good communication skills can put to ease many troubling concerns.

[owl_girl]

One thing I teach in my Outdoor Leadership classes is that a leader must not only be knowledgeable but be able to convey his thoughts in a manner that the average person can believe in and trust.

Example: If a group gets lost, soon a debate will accrue about which way to go. If a leader is confident in his navigation skills and feels he can get the group back on track, he must be able to explain his logic so that the group feels comfortable in following him. People need that comfort zone to remain calm and good communication skills can put to ease many troubling concerns.

I tried to show my friend the right way by pointing out that the sand on the trail she was going had no tracks in it that should have been there by the group that went befor us. She refused to even look. There was another friend with me who agreed with me but the other still wouldnt listen and she just kept going. We went with here till we were far away from where we shoulda been and she got scard realized we were going the wrong way and then let me lead and we got back just befor dark.

[pgvoutdoors]

Owl Girl,
That is a common problem. The main thing is to keep the group together. If only one person disagrees with the group, many times the group can insinuate that they are going to follow their plan and the odd person will be left on their own. Most people believing that they are going to be left behind will decide to follow the group. But, if a person is still determined to leave the group you may have to give in to them for a short time to let them work out their thoughts.

[Dennis K.]

That is a GREAT example! - what do you think caused her to disregard what you said?
For that matter, why did you give in and go the wrong way?

[wildWoman]

What an excellent topic. I think panic can be the greatest danger to a person in a survival situation.

What I've noticed a couple of times is that people become unsure of some orienteering skills (probably their wobbliest ones) and can begin to question that their compass works right. From that, it's an easy step to convince yourself you're right, the compass is wrong and make a good mess of things.
A couple ways to avoid that is to write down on a sheet of paper that goes everywhere you go those things you tend to be unsure of under normal circumstances, because that's most likely what's going to fail you, what you'll be insecure about under stress. And to carry two compasses, a good idea anyway to pack them in different pockets or whatever in case you loose one. That way, you can check that lo and behold, they both point north.

[Sourdough]

Then there is the clients who just won't hear when I say "NO" we can't do that. After the second refusal to do as instructed, the hunt is over, and the hunter looses all his money paid for the hunt. I load his butt in the aircraft, and take him to the nearest village with commercial air service. Confronted with a terminated $14,000.- Hunt which was paid in full be for departure, Most are smart enough to "BE" guided, some are not, and are sent home. I am responsible for their safety, not their success.

[Gray Wolf]

Then there is the clients who just won't hear when I say "NO" we can't do that. After the second refusal to do as instructed, the hunt is over, and the hunter looses all his money paid for the hunt.

I am responsible for their safety, not their success.

Right on target! People don't know how much we pay for insurance and how hard it is to find a ins co. that will give it to us to start with! Let alone we are liable in a civil action for their safety. I do the same, you don't listen it's over.

[PipeBundle]

Without question, panic is the one of the worst things you can do or have happen in your group. Irrational thought and behavior, a complete waste of your bodies resources which you might have dire need to conserve.

I can't say I know a good way to deal with someone in a panic situation, but the sooner you get them to calm down the better for everyone.

Someone mentioned getting lost. It's a good time for panic to rear it's ugly head for certain. But if you really think about it, how lost can you really be? You're on foot in the wilderness, how long has it been since you knew you were on track? If you were paying any attention to where you thought you were going, there is a good chance you can backtrack to a known location. Go back a couple hundred yards or half a mile or whatever and find where you've been. If you're lucky you're not really that lost and will find the proper trail again. If not at least you can gain the confidence of returning where you've been before.

If all else fails, what I have done is just sit down and forget about it. Do something else. Have lunch or dinner or whatever. You're wasting energy worrying about it, you're probably exhausted by now. Take a break, make camp and spend the nite. Get some rest. Things have a way of working themselves out if you give your mind a break from the worry.

There are two benefits of dropping packs and sitting down. 1) You can't get any more lost than you already are. 2) The recharge to your brain will allow it to function much more rationally and get you back on track.

Always remember....Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

[crashdive123]

There are two benefits of dropping packs and sitting down. 1) You can't get any more lost than you already are. 2) The recharge to your brain will allow it to function much more rationally and get you back on track.

Not that's good advice. When you get a chance head on over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself. Thanks.

[wareagle69]

i think the key is to slow down from the get go, too many have a destination they have to get to, and complacency is the worst habbit we have, when in the bush with allen it is a mentally drainingtime for me, i must pay attention to everything, the trail around me i have to notice everything, cuz he is always asking 25 yards back what manmade spoor did we pass by and i have to answer 12 guage shell red looks like been there a while or a snickers wrapper looks fresh plus also watch plants and keep my bearings as to where we are going( so far have not trained in the same place twice) fourtunatley we stop for tea or water to process things, these are usually at least 10 min breaks so i will mentally note everything or take out my notebook and do a quick map, also these stops are learning spots so i am looking all around and processing my area helps make it very familiar when heading back, so i say to you slow down and smell the wilderness

[Dennis K.]

The natural role of the anxiety leading to panic appears to be to guide us toward immediate evasive action, be it flight or fight. Panic ensues when we are unable to formulate an effective evasive action, we choose the wrong evasive action, the evasive action is ineffective, or the evasive action goes terribly wrong in ways we do not understand.

This really rings true. Panic ensues from a feeling of helplessness, and not being able to "fix it."
We live in a WalMart society - everything you want, all under one roof, just swipe your credit card. When we don't get it immediately, we get irritated and call customer service or a manager. So much of our perception is based upon "NOW!!!!" instead of "HERE."
We get so wrapped up in what we want, that we forget what we have. When what we want (like being in control) is not immediately available, all we are left with is what we have.
In a 'lost in the bush' scenario, our perception may be that we have nothing, and that all control is slipping away - so, in an effort to hang on to what little we have, we see the enormity of nature, which dwarfs what we think we have, and we feel like we are very small and insignificant – hence the feeling of claustrophobia.
I think it is common knowledge that when faced with a potentially dangerous situation (like being lost), we should stop and take the packs off. The problem with that, though, is that if we are fighting off panic, by sitting down we may feel like we are doing nothing – which would actually compound the feeling of helplessness. In dealing with panic, I think it would be important to do something – maybe counting matches, measuring rope, counting tent stakes – anything to actually engage the mind. If you are alone, you will feel like you are doing something to regain control. If you are with another person, the person closest to panic will feel as if they are contributing, and the person giving directions will feel like they are maintaining control.
So, my guess is Yes – stop & sit. BUT, do something while sitting.

[owl_girl]

That is a GREAT example! - what do you think caused her to disregard what you said?
For that matter, why did you give in and go the wrong way?
She did so out of pride mostly. I was going to leave her and get help partly cuz she said something earlier that day about people doing what she wants even when they dont agree and I didnt want to be one of those people. but my other friend said she might get hurt which was likly if she was alon and started to panic so then I felt bad for wanting to leave her out of pride which was selfish cuz I knew I would be ok if I did follow her since I was confident in the woods and knew somone would sooner or later find us if I couldnt get us back but if I left she might not be ok so I followd.

[Dennis K.]

I'm glad you put safety first. Sounds like you were much more aware of your surroundings than she was. Good call to stay together.

[owl_girl]

Thanks but I think I owe that decision to my other friend who is a bit more patient with people

[wildWoman]

The best advice on being lost and getting found again, IMO, is in Horace Kephart's "Camping and Woodcraft". Too legthy for me to write it all down here...but a great book to have anyway.

[bulrush]

Remy, you give some good advice, about thinking calmly about your situation before acting. However, the truth is, and this is especially true of people who are not used to the outdoors (newbies), that most people don't think, they simply react. Some might call this "emotional immaturity".

I would not let someone threaten my safety with their ignorance or emotional immaturity. If the situation was exteme enough, I would leave them behind and try to direct SAR crews to their last known location. If the weather was nice and we had plenty of daylight left, I would let them guide me in the wrong direction, then say "see I told you so." Some people need that kick in the pants to reset their panicked brain.

I've never been lost before, but sometimes I have gone on unplanned side trips.

[trax]

All these posts are really great at explaining why I like to go out in the bush alone.

[Sourdough]

How does one get Lost in their livingroom..........?;)

[Dennis K.]

remy -
thanks for the info about the physiology. The info about lethargy was particularly helpful - I can pick out anxiety in its various stages pretty easily, but lethargy is not something I thought of.
What about shock? The term "Shock" is tossed around on every med show on TV - usually in relation to a serious bodily injury, yet from what I understand, shock can also be caused by an extremely stressful situation even if no injury is present. What is it? How do you recognize it in yourself and in others? How do you treat it in yourself and others?

[trax]

How does one get Lost in their livingroom..........?;)

My livingroom = 49 degrees, 52' N to 58 degrees, 45'N
94 degrees, 4' W to 101 degrees, 3' W

It can happen.

[Sourdough]

My point was, poorly communicated. What I was trying to say was, If one is comfortable in the wilderness, how can he be lost. Even if lost, and he sat down a said I have a new home and it is here. Tomorrow he could look for the old one or a new one. It was not directed towards you Trax.

[trax]

No man, I'm just glad you're not asking what channel the show 'Lost' was on, thought you'd gone over to the dark side. I guess we made the same point in a way :)

[trax]

Well, if you were really trying to be short you would have just kinda scrunched down in your chair.

[Dennis K.]

Thanks for clearing that up - terms like "shock" being tossed around, without a clear understanding of them, I suspect wouldn't do much to ward off any type of panic.

Next question - this whole thread was started off in a response to a "lost in the woods" scenario as presented on TV.
As far a "traumatic" is concerned - how would you define that? A person who grew up in the woods might not see that as a panic situation, Yet a person with little familiarity w/ the great outdoors could be quite traumatized by being lost in the woods for a day or 2. (My mother-in-law panicked when me & the wife & kids got back from a hike after dark. I'm talkin' in need of serious medication... I'm sure she considers that 'traumatic' but perhaps not in the medical sense.)
There is trauma - as in medical emergency - car accident, impalement, industrial accident, etc.
There is trauma - as in PTSD - an extended period of high stress
There is trauma - as in coming home and finding your Dad in lingerie....
(no that never happened :D)
What is trauma?

[FVR]

I think I may have posted this a year back. I once got turned around in the Western Md mountains. I walked over a few ridges while deerhunting, it was cold, raining, windy, and getting darker.

I decided to go back to the cabin and realized that I was really freak'n lost. This was the kind of place, he ll, we had to drive through a stream to get to the cabin.

I remember the panic, the fear, the urge to run. But, I pulled out my poncho, put it on and sat down on a stump. I started to think, I remembered that I took a compass reading while standing in the backdoor of the cabin, I wrote it down and put it in my wallet. I pulled it out and stood and pretended I was standing in the backdoor of the cabin. I took a drink of water from my canteen, did a 180 and started walking.

The cabin was about 50 yards off a dirt road. I figured if I hit the dirt road, a left, a right, it did not matter as it was a dirt road.

Many hours later in the dark, a few to many ridges, hungry, wet below my knees, I made it to the cabin, I chose left, which was a good choice.LOL.

If you have a compass, always take a reading at camp, write it down or lock it in. Always take a canteen with a cup, always take a poncho, always take a flashlight, always sit down on a stump and relax.

Stumps are good things.

[Runs With Beer]

Be prepared, And the only thing I have to worry about here walks on 2 legs.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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