Real MEN vs. Modern WIMP men or where did the adventure spirit go.

[rwc1969]

... I see all kinds of kids at church on Sunday.

....

I think you edited your post Rick, but this isn't reffering to your neighborhood? Or do you go to church out of state. LOL!

[Rick]

Actually, I didn't and wouldn't do that. If I edit a post and make a material difference in it I always so note it.

[CoyoteBC]

Actually BC, I see how you could think that now as you said minority in your post, but it wasn't directed specifically at you. A few here in this thread, and other threads on this forum have recently made generalizations and implications of "minority". That's what that part of my post was referring to.

One bad apple in a whole bunch is a minority, but that one bad apple will ruin the whole bunch nonetheless. That's my point. Also, people tend to think if bad things aren't happening in their neighborhood as Rick stated, or country, then it must be a minority issue, and don't concern themselves with it. That is a mistake as history has proved time and time again.

People these days have a tendency to overlook problems until they are out of control.

Just as with modern medicine we treat the symptom, but don't bother to address the root cause.

You are right it was your use of minority in the post right after my use that had me wondering.

[rwc1969]

I was just kidding bout the edited part Rick, but you did imply "your neighborhood" when you made the statements you did make. LOL!

Thanks BC! Not looking to ruffle feathers just trying to understand and perhaps help others understand why the world is the way it is and give some ideas for positive change.

It all starts at home in the mirror and goes out from there to your family, neighbors, city, county, state, etc. If we work hard at keeping things right in our neck of the woods and don't turn a blind eye to the pleas of others the world would be a much better place.

But, simply saying that things are fine where I live so who cares what goes on elsewhere is a huge mistake IMO, as that's how we got here in the first place. That's how some of the most evil empires came to exist and grow in power. We need to make sure we got things squared away on our end first, but, we also need to pay attention to what's going on around us, even if it's not directly affecting us at the moment.

That's what real men and women do!

[CoyoteBC]

I have always taught my daughters (and foster kids) it is the duty of the strong to help the weak.
And even the weak will at times be stronger then the strong.
The worse beating I ever took in my life was caused because I couldn't watch 10 armed men (knives and clubs) beat on a guy. In the end we both walked away so it wasn't a big deal

[Sourdough]

Bump.....Bump For JPGreco

[JPGreco]

Thanks, I think this should answer my question quite well when I read through it later.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

If courage in exploration is the measure of a "Man" how can you possibly top strapping yourself in a hydrogen rocket and being shot to the moon at 17,000 miles an hour?

[Rick]

Catching the rocket. Just sayin'....That would sort of top it.....I think.

[NCO]

Dropping my two flies in this soup...

I can't honestly say that I read every post on this thread, or even checked every page, but the once I did got me thinking.
Some of you might know that I'm one of the younger members here, only 23 years old. And from a foreign country and culture to rest of you.
On the first page there is a mention about the lack of "rite of passage" for men in USA. I thought of this a bit more and came to a conclusion that this is indeed a significant thing.
Here, in Finland, we do have a rite of passage. It is the legally mandatory army service for the whole male population.(these days it's not that mandatory, but mandatory on paper at least) We say that the military turns boys in to men(and men in to single men...), when I see guys on a leave with their uniforms on I pick on them and buy them a beer. That is what was done previously to me, and generations before me. After a man has done his service with honor, we certainly see them in a different light, and they feel it in themselves too. There is a culture to it that effects every aspect of our society. When couple of Brittish men, strangers, might chat about the "bloody weather", we chat about our army times... It creates a common bond to all men through out the society.

[LongHuntre]

Well put, I agree as i am a the son of a real man a man who was born in 1922 and survived the Depression and was a W.W. 2 vet. who served overseas in theater and who came home from the war and worked in the Oilfield his entire life on Cable Tool Rigs and Pulling Units doing back breaking work heating and pounding drill bits in a fire and roughnecking casing and tubing all outdoors in all kinds of weather working in the oil patch his entire life, a man who broke his ankle in a fall off an icy oil tank ladder and then managed to drive home , shave, change clothes and drive himself to the E.R. ............ My Dad was 49 when i was born in 1971 I never heard him complain and never knew him to be sick until he was older and diabetes and heart problems sidelined him a bit but he still mowed the yard, planted a garden, cut wood, etc... Yes my Dad was a real Mans Man but me....well i am not even 1/4 of the man my old man was and the reason is because i never had to endure the sacrifices and hardships that my Father went through, so therefore I am 3/4 less the Man that i am glad my Dad was for me to look up to because i would not have traded my Dad for anyone else in the world.....I am a modern day certified "wussy" compared to the old timers of days gone by !!!

[JPGreco]

I've read the first 10 posts of this thread and it is spot on.

From one of my absolute favorite books on the subject:

'Society at large can't make up its mind about men. Having spent the last thirty years redefining masculinity into something more sensitive, safe, manageable and, well, feminine, it now berates men for not being men. Boys will be boys, they sigh. As though if a man were to truly grow up he would forsake wilderness and wanderlust and settle down, be at home forever in Aunt Polly's parlor. "Where are all the real men?" is regular far for talk shows and new books. You asked them to be women, I want to say. The result is a gender confusion never experienced at such a wide level in the history of the world. How can a man know he is one when his highest aim is minding his manners?'
~Wild at Heart~ By John Eldredge

[BENESSE]

Sounds nice but...NEWS FLASH!... the definition has expanded into the 21st century.
Ask Cowboysurvival (a single dad raising a little girl) what a real man is. Just for starters.
Let's get real here and stop fantasizing.

[JPGreco]

I think I can throw a thought into this thread now after reading it. The question what happened to men is valid, but I think the better question from reading through is what happened to the SPIRIT and the HEART of man. 100 years ago things were tough because that was life. I won't begin to compare that lifestyle to today's.

The spirit and heart of man has been tamed over time. It starts when most of us are little boys. Dad is either working all the time or not even in the picture, which is problem number 1. There is nobody to be a warrior with, to fight with, somebody to encourage you to jump off or climb whatever you are going after. We are tamed and told not to do these dangerous things for whatever reason or maybe no other reason than "i say so". This goes on through most of our youth and as posted in this thread, when we are dangerous, we are severely punished (not to go into the problems specifically). Then we are expected to be men? Pretty difficult. Thats where it starts.

Then as men, something is missing in our hearts. Some men try to fill that with infidelity or any number of things that takes him away from his family, which propogates the cycle. The majority of these things that are tried fail to fill that void.


What is needed then? Adventure is one of those things and I think some people missed this point in this thread. Adventure isn't going where nobody has gone before. For some it is, but how many people have that opportunity? No, the adventure that most men need is simply going where they have not been. To test themselves against nobody but themselves. An element of danger is needed as well. I'm not talking going to vegas or on a relaxing vacation and staying in a hotel. I'm talking a challenge. A lot of the new people who chime in saying I'm going go live in the woods for months with nothing but a knife are on the right track, just misguided. Thats too extreme for most. But a week can do it. Hell, even a few days can do it. It's what the heart and spirit want. An adventure.

It was posted earlier by SD if this is a youth issue only. Clearly by my post I believe its several generations deep. Currently up to three generations. I'm about to turn 30. I can see the longing in the eye's of a lot of my elder's. I know I have it. And I know the majority of the youth is misguided. I know I long deeply for an adventure, as well as the other things I've come to learn that I need.

[JPGreco]

Sounds nice but...NEWS FLASH!... the definition has expanded into the 21st century.
Ask Cowboysurvival (a single dad raising a little girl) what a real man is. Just for starters.
Let's get real here and stop fantasizing.


Nothing in that post would put him down and I whole heartedly applaud single parents for raising their children.

As for the demasculinization of men, I've seen in it in many of the boys I've coached.

[1stimestar]

Yes that is a big part of it, not having a right of passage. But it does not even have to be a national thing. It could be a family thing, such as first kill for a hunting family.

[BENESSE]

Here, in Finland, we do have a rite of passage. It is the legally mandatory army service for the whole male population.(these days it's not that mandatory, but mandatory on paper at least) We say that the military turns boys in to men(and men in to single men...) After a man has done his service with honor, we certainly see them in a different light, and they feel it in themselves too. It creates a common bond to all men through out the society.

I have always believed that a piece-time mandatory draft (not just for men!) would be beneficial on so many levels. It would teach timeless valuable skills, instill discipline, toughen young people up and strengthen the love & bond to country. (The added benefit would be that the whole approach to owning and properly handling guns would radically change and diffuse the present polarization)

[Rick]

I think the whole thing is pretty silly. People are people. The only reason men did the things they did is because they had to. What about all the men in 1920 that worked in the cities as accountants or police and fire or doctors or lawyers, etc. ad infinitum. We're taking a single segment of society and applying to every man and that just isn't applicable.

As for men being home with their boys. They certainly weren't during WWI. Many were off trying to find jobs during the depression or working for the CCC. Same during the dustbowl years and during WWII. My brother was 18 months old when dad returned from the service. Those are formative years that stay with you throughout your life.

I don't see a nickles worth of difference between men of yesteryear and men of today. The men of yesteryear built the roads and strung the wires that pulled this country together and they are still doing it today sweating the same sweat and bleeding the same blood.

We're in love with an ideal not a real person and that's probably from all the advertising we've been subjected to.

[BENESSE]

. . . +1 Rick.

[randyt]

+2 Rick

I was chatting with a buddy the other day about world war two. I wondered if the young men and women of today would be as capable. I think if push came to shove, they would step up and surprise the world.

[crashdive123]

I think that if you look at the young men and women of today's military that they are making the WWII vets proud. IMO they are every bit as capable. They all volunteered knowing the risks. They darn sure make me proud.

[Pal334]

I can say that I have served in combat situations in several eras (Vietnam through Iraq) and the young men and women serve with a courage and selflessness that would and does make the "Greatest Generation"proud. I think that has been one constant in our countries history, when needed our young people are capable and more than willing to step up and be counted. So the "Real Men vs Modern WIMP men" discussion rings hollow with me. And I am especially proud of how our female service members on the whole are serving courageously and (at least in my experience) do not ask for any concessions for their service.

[BENESSE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wtZaJa0IgM

[randyt]

Absolutely, my hats off to our armed services, they're awesome.

If I understand correctly, 10 million were drafted into active duty during world war two. Could we come up with 10 million in these times? Young folks seem to have different values these days but I still think they would rise to the challenge.

[FVR]

Good book, Making the Corps. It explains how the USMC has evolved, how it had to just to keep up with the technology.

As far as being a Real Man, I'm a real man. I do what has to be done for my family. If that means shoveling crap in a ditch or sitting behind a desk, I will do it. Granite, I'm a little hard on the kids, sometimes the Marine comes out. But I think they've seen my watery eyes at sad movies. I tell them, "I got something in my eyes, no, no, allergies, just pass the damn tissues."

[Winter]

Joseph Campbell wrote extensively, about mythology, and the lack of any rite-of-passage for modern males.

That is the reason I joined the service. It didn't feel right to be considered a man and not have a stepping stone under foot.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

My daughter left her mountain bike at my house.

Could I be a real man and ride a girls bicycle?

What if I paint it OD green?

[Camp10]

My daughter left her mountain bike at my house.

Could I be a real man and ride a girls bicycle?

What if I paint it OD green?

Nah, a real man would leave it pink....get pics! Lol!

[BENESSE]

My daughter left her mountain bike at my house.

Could I be a real man and ride a girls bicycle?

What if I paint it OD green?

The bears don't care what color it is.

[Rick]

Wait a minute......AS riding a girls bike?........Hmmmm.......pics or it didn't happen.

[ChudaJohn]

I wonder, was it a "Mans Man" or a Feminine Man who made it possible to be on the Internet, to have a computer, a car, groceries, clothes and so on? Anyone get my point?

[BENESSE]

I wonder, was it a "Mans Man" or a Feminine Man who made it possible to be on the Internet, to have a computer, a car, groceries, clothes and so on? Anyone get my point?

I get your point Chuda, but some men don't like to acknowledge that. They don't understand that the definition of what a "real" man is, evolved the way everything else in life did. The core values will never change and those have never been in dispute. The superficial stuff has.

[roxanwright]

You guy's are doing great....so here is a side question, and I hope I don't derail the conversation. But without saying it is you, is this a youth issue only..?? or are there a fair amount of middle aged or older men without basic outdoorsman skills, that feel a void.???

[Seniorman]

"Real Men As Opposed To Modern Wimps"

The Real Man Test

Note: All "real men" answer "C" to all of these questions. Knowing this, women will have come far in understanding men and enriching their own lives if they carefully review the "C" answer.

1. Alien beings from a highly advanced society visit the Earth, and you are the first human they encounter. As a token of intergalactic friendship, they present you with a small but incredibly sophisticated device that is capable of curing all disease, providing an infinite supply of clean energy, wiping out hunger and poverty, and permanently eliminating oppression and violence all over the entire Earth. You decide to:

A. Present it to the President of the United States.
B. Present it to the Secretary General of the United Nations.
C. Take it apart.

2. As you grow older, what lost quality of your youthful life do you miss the most?

A. Innocence.
B. Idealism.
C. Cherry bombs.


3. When is it okay to kiss another male?

A. When you wish to display simple and pure affection without regard for narrow-minded social conventions.
B. When he is the Pope. (Not on the lips.)
C. When he is your brother and you are Al Pacino and this is the only really sportsmanlike way to let him know that, for business reasons, you have to have him killed.

4. In your opinion, the ideal pet is:

A. A cat.
B. A dog.
C. A dog that eats cats.

5. You have been seeing a woman for several years. She's attractive and intelligent, and you always enjoy being with her. One leisurely Sunday afternoon the two of you are taking it easy. You're watching a football game; she's reading the papers when she suddenly, out of the clear blue sky, tells you that she thinks she really loves you, but, she can no longer bear the uncertainty of not knowing where your relationship is going. She says she's not asking whether you want to get married; only whether you believe that you have some kind of future together. What do you say?

A. That you sincerely believe the two of you do have a future, but you don't want to rush it.
B. That although you also have strong feelings for her, you cannot honestly say that you'll be ready anytime soon to make a lasting commitment, and you don't want to hurt her by holding out false hope.
C. That you cannot believe the Vikings called a draw play on third and seventeen.


6. Okay, so you have decided that you truly love a woman and you want to spend the rest of your life with her, sharing the joys and the sorrows the world has to offer, come what may. How do you tell her?

A. You take her to a nice restaurant and tell her after dinner.
B. You take her for a walk on a moonlit beach, and you say her name, and when she turns to you, with the sea breeze blowing through her hair and the stars in her eyes, you tell her.
C. Tell her what?


7. One weekday morning your wife wakes up feeling ill and asks you to get your three children ready for school. Your first question to her is:

A. "Do they need to eat or anything?
B. "They're in school already?"
C. "There are three of them?"


8. When is it okay to throw away a set of veteran underwear?

A. When it has turned the color of a dead whale and developed new holes so large that you're not sure which ones were originally intended for your legs.
B. When it is down to eight loosely connected underwear molecules and has to be handled with tweezers.
C. It is never okay to throw away veteran underwear. A real man checks the garbage regularly in case somebody (and we are not naming names, but this would be his wife) is quietly trying to discard his underwear.


9. What is the human race's single greatest achievement?

A. Democracy.
B. Religion.
C. Colt’s Govt. Model .45 ACP.

:thumbup:

S.M.

[Spooky Ol' Joe]

Nothing is to be gained by insulting one on his type of gear.

Amen. That goes for all of us.

[Spooky Ol' Joe]

Seniorman,

For the last 40 years I have been married to a woman, now 64-years-old and o-so-liberal, who could probably eat your lunch every day of the week, and ask for seconds each and every time.

In other words, don't assume that 'liberal' means 'weak'....

Happy Days,

Spooky Ol' Joe

[Spooky Ol' Joe]

Seniorman,

For the last 40 years I have been married to a woman, now 64-years-old and o-so-liberal, who could probably eat your lunch every day of the week, and ask for seconds each and every time.

Recognize the cultural differences here. I chose her, and she chose me, because of our determination to ensure the long-term survival of our species (in this case, Native American). She is my PARTNER, not my subordinate. She has successfully defended my back on more than on occasion.

Happy days,

Spooky Ol' Joe

[Seniorman]

Seniorman,

For the last 40 years I have been married to a woman, now 64-years-old and o-so-liberal, who could probably eat your lunch every day of the week, and ask for seconds each and every time.

In other words, don't assume that 'liberal' means 'weak'....

Happy Days,

Spooky Ol' Joe



Uhhhhh, huh?? :lol:

S.M.