View Full Version : Debt free Vs sticking it to the system?
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 07:24 PM
Got to thinking early this morning watching news on the banking systems on Bloomberg television.
I have been an advocate of the "DEBT FREE" belief system.
Get debt free asap and stay debt free thereafter !
However looking at a hyper-inflationary depression, is that the wises move?
Here is my idea:
Borrow the maximum amount you can during a bout of hyper inflation and buy assets like gold or silver or what ever you can physically hold.
Default to your creditors! And let them go titties up.
In short order you have accumulated a lot more "REAL" wealth as inflation
destroys the currency and your PM's go through the roof.
Remember tulip mania?
At the end of tulip mania, 1 ounce of gold would buy a nice house in
Amsterdam!
The only wild cards and jokers will be what the "GOVERNMENT" does.
You may end up with a royal flush and the jokers in Washington will
beat that hand with deuces to make their friends rich at your expense.
Is it immoral to stick it to the bank when their plan is to stick it to you?
For me: stooping to the level of those I disdain is not a solution with which I think I can live with. Eye for an eye works in self-defense, but not in voluntary transactions.
crashdive123
07-31-2008, 07:26 PM
Soooo (not sure from your post) is this something you would do?
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 07:29 PM
For me: "stooping to the level of those I disdain is not a solution with which I think I can live with. Eye for an eye works in self-defense, but not in voluntary transactions."
crashdive123
07-31-2008, 07:32 PM
I thought that was your position - just wanted to make sure I understood. For me it would not be an option, and I would hold in disdain any individual that would do something like this. Some may say - no harm, I'm just sticking it to the system. Many, many individuals are affected by the "system", from those incharge of it to you and me.
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 07:34 PM
Soooo (not sure from your post) is this something you would do?
There is a moral side to this ......I really wonder about how "we" would address this issue. I personally can not stick it to my bank, they are
both my bank and the officers have been loyal to me when I need something,
they take care of me. (in allot of cases for free)
crashdive123
07-31-2008, 07:55 PM
I'd have to look at that. I wouldn't think that family would have any contractual obligations unless they were named as parties to the loan. I would also hold in contempt any family member that would do something like that. I'd still love em, probably not respect em so much any more.
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 08:02 PM
Even though sticking it to the banks has a certain appeal to it, I still have to live with myself. I'm not going to turn into a crook even though the system is crooked.
On the other side of this coin is the Credit Card companies now jacking up interest rates to 29.9% even though the card is paid on time and always in full.
They are the blood suckers !
I have this pesky little voice at the back of my head that tells me not to do things from time to time, and I tend to listen to it.
even though the system is crooked.
How's that? No one forces anyone to take out a loan, sign up for a credit card or spend it out to the limit. I could care less if a credit card company wants to charge an exorbitant rate. I just wouldn't use them. There are plenty of cards that don't. I also doubt many states would allow 29.9%. That would constitute usury in many states, I'm sure.
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 08:17 PM
29.9% is allowed in Canada Rick. Third party cards.
Trax will change that. You just wait.
RangerXanatos
07-31-2008, 08:57 PM
So Traxistan is completely taking over Canada? Where have I been??? Speaking of Traxistan, what happened to our Quality Control Department Ken??? Today is the last day of Pick on Rick Month and he hasn't been on in a while...
crashdive123
07-31-2008, 09:10 PM
You will notice from Ken's previous posts that it wasn't a month long thing for him, but rather an everyday celebration.
RangerXanatos
07-31-2008, 09:18 PM
True, but I kinda miss the "twin sibling" rivalry thing they had going on.
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 10:22 PM
Bragg's Quote:
even though the system is crooked.
Rick Quote:
How's that?
Banks get OK to lie for another year.......
___________________________________
OK For USA to Turn Japanese
Just when you think there is a glimmer of hope that some of these ne'er do well, lying, cheating, sniveling, cowardly bank CEOs might finally be forced to step up to the confessional and tell all, this comes along: FASB Postpones Off-Balance-Sheet Rule for a Year.
Which makes me wonder: How precarious is the financial health of the US banks and brokers that they need yet another year before they can, oh, I don't know -- disclose what they own on their balance sheets?
Ubiq-cerpt:™
"The Financial Accounting Standards Board postponed a measure, opposed by Citigroup Inc. and the securities industry, forcing banks to bring off-balance-sheet assets such as mortgages and credit-card receivables back onto their books.
FASB, the Norwalk, Connecticut-based panel that sets U.S. accounting standards, voted 5-0 today to delay the rule change until fiscal years starting after Nov. 15, 2009. The board needs to give financial institutions more time to prepare for the switch, FASB member Thomas Linsmeier said at a board meeting.
"We need to get a new standard into effect,'' Linsmeier said, though ``it's not practical'' to begin requiring companies to put assets underlying securitizations onto their books this year.
FASB proposed having companies put new securitization structures on their balance sheets for fiscal years starting after Nov. 15 this year. The Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association and the American Securitization Forum complained that the changes, which could affect as much as $11 trillion of off-balance-sheet entities, may make companies appear short of capital to regulators and lenders. Financial companies' responses may in turn worsen the credit crisis by further constraining lending and investing, they said."
The longer they wait, the worse it ultimately will be. The long Japanese Recession (1989-2003) was caused by precisely this refusal to take the markdown, and engage in all manner of delays, excuses, procrastinations.
Eee-diots -- This only will make it worse!
Here's the money quote:
"Under FASB's Statement 140, one of the rules the board is considering changing, the trusts can remain off-balance-sheet if their activities are "significantly limited'' and "entirely specified'' in the legal documents that created them."
Man, if ever a legal clause was made to be folded spindled and mutilated, this was it.
Question: How can anyone value a financial company if they cannot tell what are on their balance sheets?
Answer: You cannot. If you buy a financial under these conditions, you are flying blind.
Investment Thesis: Ritholtz Rule #1: Know What You Own.
Whoever buys Financials under these circumstances loses the right to whine down the road about companies not being forthcoming. If you own them, don't complain when you get what you deserve.
Source:
FASB Postpones Off-Balance-Sheet Rule for a Year
Jody Shenn and Ian Katz
Bloomberg, July 30 2008
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601009&sid=a4O4VjK.fX5Q&
______________________________
Everything you need to know about the housing and mortgage bubble in one sentence:
"In the four years leading up to the credit crunch Wall Street’s big banks paid themselves $250 billion in bonuses."
In other words, they stole the money, then you the taxpayers bailed them out. Shameful. Absolutely shameful.
crashdive123
07-31-2008, 11:25 PM
Well allrightythen. Well allrightythen.
BraggSurvivor
07-31-2008, 11:35 PM
More than a century ago, a British observer of Canada (Goldwin Smith) used the phrase "the necessary blackmail" to characterize payments from the Canadian taxpayers to the province of Quebec. It's a phrase that could be put to good use in depicting the recent U.S. financial crises.
As with any investment, RE should be analyzed, re-analyzed, deconstructed, reconstructed, and then analyzed again before making a deal.
Here is my non professional opinion as what is going on:
Banks and other holders of MBS know what they've got: hot, smoldering garbage. This is why they oppose bringing it on the books.
However, it might not always be garbage. If housing prices start to go up, many of the MBS will start trading again. If this happens, the credit crisis (or, bank greed and mismanagement crisis) will evaporate.
Let's take a look at the efforts thus far to prop up or re-flate housing:
-Lower the fed funds rate to 2%. More money, higher prices. Sadly, these high prices went to oil and commodities, not real estate like in 2004. Failed.
-Stand behind a takeover of failed Bear Stearns. If this had not been done, counterparty risks would not have "brought down the system". They'd just have crushed many banks and crippled housing for decades. But rescuing Bear did not achieve reflation. Failed.
-Mail out $100BN worth of checks. This might not seem like a housing issue, but every dollar (spent or saved) hits a bank balance sheet eventually. The stimulus package was nothing more than a mechanism to move $100BN from the Treasury to the banks to help them increase their capital position in the hope they will lend more and, you guessed it, reflate housing. Failed.
-Change the implicit guarantee of Fannie and Freddie to an explicit guarantee. The 2 most corrupt agencies in the entire US get a bailout. Failed.
-Extend the Fed borrowing facilities for a while longer. The hope here is that banks will be able to swap MBS for Treasuires at least long enough for inflation to go to work on house prices. This too, I predict, will fail.
Recently, you might have read that Chrysler is no longer doing leases in the USA. GM and Ford are likewise curtailing lease activity. Financing as a revenue generator is going away. This will likely happen in housing too.
Finally, unemployment is rising. People without jobs don't buy houses.
I predict that RE will continue to drop as people can't make heads or tails of all these band-aids. Political pressure from retiring boomers makes the problems worse, and banks don't want to lend. Prices fall.
There are more variables. Will foreigners start to demand higher interest rates? Will inflation force the Fed's hand to a rate hike? if rates go up, housing further suffers.
This is a cursory analysis. But my calcuations point to prices continuing to fall. I simply see nothing to indicate otherwise.
dilligaf2u2
08-01-2008, 02:05 AM
TDW and I are not legally married. Morally yes! Legally No!
All the debt such as the house and the car are in her name. We keep me debt free. This way we always have one of us out of debt and not in a position to have to take a fall.
The camper and my truck and most of the paid off things are in my name. All the registered fire arms are in my name. The savings are in my name but she has access to it. I always pay cash and keep as debt free as I can get.
If we should loose what is in TDW's name we still have what is in my name and they can not take it for sale to cover her debts.
Don
It's good to know chivalry is not dead! Oh, wait, yeah it is. Sorry.:D
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yellowcab
04-12-2026, 06:14 PM
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yellowcab
04-12-2026, 06:16 PM
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