machete vs. tomahawk

[rebel]

Did the American pioneers favor a tomahawk over a short sword or large bowie type knife? That is the perception I am lead to believe.

If the tomahawk was favored, why?

I ask because some on the forum seem to favor a machete. Both have a place but, if you have to choose between them which would you choose and why.

[Pict]

My vote is fairly predictable on this one, machete. They are just more versatile for the tasks I have to do here in Brazil. I have to deal with tall grasses and vines. A hawk won't help much with these. That just me though. I'd love to own a decent hawk. Mac

[rebel]

My vote is fairly predictable on this one, machete. They are just more versatile for the tasks I have to do here in Brazil. I have to deal with tall grasses and vines. A hawk won't help much with these. That just me though. I'd love to own a decent hawk. Mac

I can understand and thanks for your input. I guess it would be hard to hit a vine with a 'hawk! I also want to add that you have an excellent vid for the machete.

[crashdive123]

I'm not sure what early settlers favored, but I'll bet that like me they would not have limited themselves to one. For me - nowadays I prefer a machete and folding saw. Of course I usually have several other blades along for the trip just so that they can gain some experience.

[rebel]

I'm a decisive type guy but on this one I'm on the fence.

For the same effort which would cut and split better? Hammer a nail or peg? Chop bone? Chop a hole in the ice? Dig a hole? Make other tools/weapons? Which would be the best all-around tool?

What are the limitations?

[Ole WV Coot]

machete, and I sharpen the same as Mac. I think I will make a hawk as soon as I catch up after last weeks hail storm.

[the grizz]

I carry both. machete for swamps river bottoms,hatchet for rolling hills/ mountains i happen to have both in my AO.

[Rick]

The tomahawk is native to North America so I doubt that early pioneers would have chosen it over the long knife. Simply because we use what we are most knowledgeable about or accustomed to and in this case the long knife would have been something they carried almost daily as did their father, uncles, etc.

I would guess (that's all it is) that tomahawks were viewed as an Indian weapon of war and most white men would not have wanted to be associated with that given the prevailing sentiment about Indians during that time. I would think there would have been some social stigma associated with any white man that used a tomahawk.

Just some thoughts.

[RangerXanatos]

[QUOTE=rebel;58978]For the same effort which would cut and split better? Hammer a nail or peg? Chop bone? Chop a hole in the ice? Dig a hole? Make other tools/weapons? Which would be the best all-around tool?[QUOTE]

Fo what you have listed, I'd say a T-hawk would do better. But it's still possible with a machete. But just like Pict said, a T-hawk would do much good for vines, tall grasses, and brush. I have both, a T-hawk and a machete. The machete sees a whole lots more use. I've even used it to cut down trees thicker than my legs. Sure, a t-hawk would've been better for a job like that. But not for the other stuff I had to cut down to get to the trees. So given that I could only pick one to use, I would choose the machete.

Daniel

[trax]

I would think that often times the early settlers used what was available to them, simple as that. The trading companies brought iron axes to trade with the Indians, so the hawks were largely available. The hawk with a hammer head on the opposite side of the axe head would have been pretty useful for building, which was a priority. I've seen a couple of explorers and mapmakers personal gear from the 18th century, in museum settings, and in both instances they had tomahawks and knives with about about a six inch blade and notes that they also carried "much longer knives" but the knives hadn't been recovered.

[Gray Wolf]

A tomahawk and an axe are different, so is an axe part of this scenario? Tomahawks were gotten by trade or fighting with American Natives, back in England and Europe blacksmiths were making axes at that time.

[Rick]

As I understand it, the tomahawk was more ceremonial for the Europeans while the Native Americans used it as a tool. I don't think the steel tomahawk was available to the Native American until contact with Europeans.

[Beo]

I carry a camp axe and a tomahawk, have shown pics of both, and a long knife. I like the camp axe for working around the camp (cutting wood, hammering in tent stakes, etc.) but the hawk for trekking and hunting, a good hawk has a smaller head and thinner handle but if made correct will cut what you need. The frontiersmen of the 1700 to 1860s carried a hawk and a knife, both fit well on the belt and were weapons when need be. I can post a pic of mine if you like.

[Gray Wolf]

Found this:

"Perhaps the most ubiquitous symbol associated with Native Americans is the tomahawk. However, few people are aware of the multiformity of its history as well as its physical characteristics.

The term "tomahawk" is a derivation of the Algonquian words "tamahak" or "tamahakan". The earliest definitions of these words (early 1600's) applied to stone-headed implements used as tools and weapons. Subsequent references involved all manner of striking weapons; wood clubs, stone-headed axes, metal trade hatchets, etc. As the years passed a tomahawk was thought of as any Indian-owned hatchet-type instrument. That association changed somewhat as white frontiersmen (traders, trappers, explorers) came to rely on the tomahawk as standard equipment.

The popular perception of a tomahawk has become that of a lightweight (one lb. or less) metal head on a wood handle. With the exception of a relative few made by Indian blacksmiths, tomahawks were manufactured on a large scale in Europe or created by individual makers in America. Some were crafted in a most elaborate manner, with fancy engraving and pewter or silver inlaid blades and handles, for presentation to important chiefs in order to commemorate treaties and seal friendships. The majority of them, though, were personalized by their owners. Vastly different methods or adornment abounded - according to materials available and the customs and styles of the time and region. Hafts were polished smooth, carved, scalloped, inlaid, branded with hot files, tacked, wrapped with copper or brass wire, covered with rawhide, leather or cloth, stained, painted and hung with every type of ornament imaginable.

Metals used (in rough chronological order) were solid iron, iron with a welded steel bit (cutting edge), brass with steel bit and lastly, solid brass (which diminished its usefulness as a wood-chopping tool). The end of the head opposite the cutting edge provided a place for a spike, hammer poll, or most ingeniously, a pipe bowl.
With a smoking pipe bowl and a drilled or hollowed handle, the pipe tomahawk became the most popular "hawk" of them all. It developed as a trade good by Euro-Americans for trade with native peoples. Iroquois men traded furs for these sought-after tomahawks. Ornate examples were presented at treaty signings as diplomatic gifts to Indian leaders, who carried them as a sign of their prestige. It was at once a weapon and symbol of peace for over 200 years and was carried, scepter-like, in the majority of photographic portraits of prominent Indian chiefs."

Source: --"Tools and Weaponry of the Frontiersman and Indian" by Ray Louis

I stand corrected.

[Beo]

That was greaat GW, I have a Native American link that says the same thing.

[trax]

A tomahawk and an axe are different, so is an axe part of this scenario?

English--axe= Cree--cikahikan
English--tomahawk=Cree--cikahikanis (literally, small axe) Cree's the only native language I speak and I'm still learning. It is related to Algonquin mind you, nevertheless, I don't believe either the cikahikan nor the cikahikanis are used for splitting hairs.

[Ole WV Coot]

A hawk can be thrown with great accuracy. When this part of the country was settled not many knives were available to youngsters and not much else to do except learn to throw a hawk. Old books on the Eastern KY area mention boys throwing hawks on their way to bring in the cows and for entertainment and show off for the girls on Sunday. Men carried a hawk and two knives in this area thru the Civil War. A hawk & knife were used in conjunction with each other, hawk to disarm, knife to kill. My great grandpa passed a lot along, didn't die until he was 93 and had a clear mind then. He was never wounded but AWOL some.

[rebel]

I have a machete on my BOB. However, the tomahawk is cool and I was hoping for a good enough reason to switch. I guess it's better to find out here than out there when you need it. Thanks to all for their input.

[crashdive123]

Why not carry both and have the best of both worlds?

[rebel]

For weight the machete will suffice.

[Arkansas_Ranger]

Did the American pioneers favor a tomahawk over a short sword or large bowie type knife? That is the perception I am lead to believe.

If the tomahawk was favored, why?

I ask because some on the forum seem to favor a machete. Both have a place but, if you have to choose between them which would you choose and why.

Working in the home of the James Black Bowie Knife, I would imagine they were never used to hack. They were more of a weapon than anything else. In fact some states outlawed them during the 19th century prohibiting them to be carried as concealed weapons.

[Gray Wolf]

I'm with crash, I wouldn't want to clear brush or thickets with a tomahawk, and I don't want to chop all that wood with a machete.

[Rokas]

I prefer machete more, because it has much more uses than tomahawk... Now I have axe similar to 'hawk, but I wish to have machete (which is illegal in our country without permission to carry and use it, because it belongs in cold weapons list... and BTW I'm juvenile, so until 18 I wont get it :( )

[Beo]

Go with the hawk or camp axe unless your in the thick jungles or real dense forest. AND I can do anything with my hawk that you can do with your machette with one exception, cut grass. I have cleared vines, thick weeds and used it in about every fashion, but there is a difference between the hawk and camp axe.

[RobertRogers]

In the northern hardwood forest I live in, a machete is rather dangerous. The woods are often too dense and a blow from this tool is likely to bounce off at an angle.

As a land surveyor who has cut many a mile, hundreds of miles, of line through the great north woods, the machete is not a good choice. Some of the more urban surveyors use them, but that is much different than thick forest where the axe and hatchet is supreme.

The hawk is a great weapon and versatile in other ways, which is why the native americans often carried them

[trax]

I'm still thinking that in terms of the original question, pioneers used what was most readily available to them. Most folks didnt exactly head out to the frontier with money spilling out of their pockets, make tools or find tools would have been the order of the day.

[rebel]

I need to clarify my thread. When I said tomahawk I was also referring to the hatchet. To me they are the same.

RobertRogers makes an excellent point in favor of the hatchet/hawk for hardwoods. My guess is that was also the reason for the pioneers to have carried this type tool. With the survival rate of around 50% I'm sure they did their homework for the necessary tools.

I need to come-up with a sheath for my hawk. I had it stuck in my belt like the movies until it cut me.

[Rick]

I think it was more to Trax's point of what was available rather than doing their homework. They obviously couldn't ask the 50% that failed and my guess is their only source of information was from a handful of friends that might or might not have known what the best tool was (which might also have led to at least part of the unfortunate 50%).

"Prithy Brother James, dost thou know which tool the Good Lord would have us carry? Be it ax or long knife?"
"Checketh the internet."
"Cooleth."

[zaebra]

i prefer the tomahawk, myself. i'm not exactly a big burly mountain man with huge arms, so i need the most efficient tools i can get. a tomahawk's one pound weight is focused on a blade only a few inches long, so that's far more pounds per square inch (and thus cutting force) than a machete. i live in the pacific northwest, so bushwacking isn't really a need for me here, or else i would probably go with the machete.

another consideration is longevity. the tomahawk blade is much more durable than the machete due to its thickness, and the handle can be easily replaced (even in the wilderness). if a machete blade breaks or bends, it's pretty much scrapped.

oh, and with a tomahawk around you won't have to look for a hammer. i loves me a multi-tasker!

[Rick]

If a machete blade breaks you have a hunting knife or a pocket knife with a really big handle.:D

[Rick]

Get the point? Yeah, knife blade, point. Good one!

[Gray Wolf]

I would rather split wood or chop down a tree with an axe.

[Pict]

"a tomahawk's one pound weight is focused on a blade only a few inches long, so that's far more pounds per square inch (and thus cutting force) than a machete"

You are correct about the hatchet. However, the force of a machete is only transmitted where it makes contact with the material being cut. When chopping at a sapling it makes contact at that one sweet spot just like a hatchet would. When cutting light vegitation and grasses typically about 1/2 tp 2/3 of the blade will make contact with each slash. On green wood a long heavy machete works much like a hatchet.

In Brazil serious land clearing isn't done with a machete or an axe, but a "foice" or billhook. The tool is so common that it it used as the symbol of the "Movimento Sem Terra" (MST) or landless workers movement.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4408/mstgw0.jpg

Mac

[Gray Wolf]

Mac is that you 12 rows back on the left?

[Pict]

No, I was running for my life. It was a good thing they found the camera trampled into
the mud though. The cameraman was eaten. Mac

[Beo]

Good points brought up on this board, to me I think it depends on where you are at,
if I was in a place like Pict... yeah a machete would be the tool I'd use. But in most U.S. forests I use my camp axe or hawk. It think it boils down to preference except in deep jungle.
Beo,http://ranchoarcana.com/taps/_remote_files_for_taps_forums/forum18/Smileys/default/police.gif (javascript:void(0);)

[RobertRogers]

From what I understand, a number of revolutionary war soldiers carried hawks. Robert Rogers of Rogers Rangers (the first Rangers in the American army) fame carried them, as did many of his men. They were also quite popular in the vietnam war. There are an excellent close quarters combat weapon.

[Rick]

Mac, I don't know what they want but if it were me I'd give it to them.....quickly.

[Pict]

The MST wants land reform. Here there is a law that if land is lying fallow and not being productive that it must be turned over to the gummit to give to landless workers who will them work it. Many large wealthy landowners have such tracts of land. The original tactic of the MST was to invade these unused lands that already qualified for redistribution and then force the government to act. This eventually turned into them invading running farms and presenting demands, getting shot at, shooting back, rural ambushes and quasi-guerilla warfae. In many cases they have acquired lands only to sell them and move on to the next property to repeat the process. Finding pure motives here in Brazil is a tough job. Mac

[Rick]

Well, my motive would be pure. To get the heck as far away from those foices as possible!

[crashdive123]

Just watched a show on the History Channel (still watching) called axes. In it they say that the ax was the favorite multi purpose tool of the early settlers. Also showed the evolution of the tomahawk. Pretty interesting.

[rebel]

http://www.nps.gov/archive/libo/teacher_packet_tools.pdf

[ryaninmichigan]

I understood the machete to be a tool of southern climates. I think in the hard woods around here it would be of little use. A sharp hachet on the other hand. I have had one all my life. I have been considering buying a "woodsmans pal" Google it. Looks handy.

[Beo]

Here is a pic of colonial, they carried camp axes or poll axes or tomahawks, as that is what was used.
Notice the axe.
https://www.pictorsstudio.com/art/wp-content/plugins/wp-shopping-cart/product_images/Triptych%20French.jpg

[ryaninmichigan]

Machetes are widely used all over the world, not just southern climates (i am guessing you refer to jungles). From China to south and central America, from India to Africa and Asia, it takes on different shapes and names, but remains one of the most useful tool throughout the world.

Hard wood is also present in those regions (cocobolo, padouk, asian ebony, sepele, peruvian walnut, bubinga, koa, ipe...).
I think both the machete and the axe have their purpose...but it seems that the preference is inherited through culture more than the tool itself.

Nords liked their axes.
And the tomahawk of the northern tribes proved to become somewhat of a mystical object...pushed of course by movies and the literature of the time. The tomahawk is also much more pleasing to the eye compare to the simplistic and blend nature of the machete. Tomahawks exude a certain refined power, while the machete exudes crudeness.

Those objects, like any other, reflect symbolisms.
The machete reflects the farmers' struggle, rebellions, crude work and primitive lives.
The tomahawk reflects posture, the idea of warriors, even courage.
(none exhaustive list)

The western cultures embraced the hawk and the axe.
Deep rooted symbols of our quest for elegant power draped in mysticism and "beauty".
Long reaching handles and small working edges, almost to the image of our ideals...but the machete was born out of a different ideal.
A short handle and a long blade, is the sign of an environment not willing to be easily tamed. It is the populace tool. The working tool...no mysticism here...cut, cut well, and cut more.

Me using the term hardwood forest was not infer there were not tropical hardwoods but to describe the terrain. Maybe you would prefer non tropical, devoid of vines and thick vegetation. Is that better? See Beowulf’s pic? Notice then lack of thick vegetation? See how travel in easier then a tropical environment? See how a axe could be advantageous over a machete? Nords liked their axes for a reason, and it was not mystical.

[Ole WV Coot]

Oh i forgot...a lot of people through out the world use the machete in "non tropical" regions. From the deserts of central America, to the deserts of Africa.
That tells me that the terrain, even though it can be part of the "choice" (i don't believe in choices), is not paramount to the deployment of one tool over another.
I still maintain it is "cultural" more than anything. (not the initial fabrication, but the popularity)
And what is culture if not mysticism ?


I do believe the young man is correct. There is a "mysticism" with the tomahawk in America, especially the Eastern United States. The machete is normally associated with work not weapon.

[Tikirocker]

The tomahawk is native to North America

G'day ...

My first post in these forums and my first point of order - through my own studies and research the above statement isn't really correct. What the Native Americans were to call the Tomahawk had been in European hands for over a thousand years in the form of Boarding Axes by sailors from pre Viking times right through to sailors of the 17th Century.

The common boarding hatchet or axe was a very popular and well favoured weapon of Pirates and the sailors of the British Royal Navy and their kin in Europe. It was from sailors that the common boarding axe was introduced to the Native Americans through trade and it was then that the Natives saw this tool useful in many different ways. If you watch Master and Commander there is a scene where a mast breaks and is dragging beyond the ship ... the ropes were cut using these very same devices; they were multi tools in their time.

This is a French Naval boarding axe ... or is it a Tomahawk? ;)

http://www.kwsantiques.de/bilder/edged/e160-2.jpg

http://www.kwsantiques.de/bilder/edged/e160-3.jpg




The Natives called their adopted version of it ... a Tomahawk sure, but the boarding axe had been around and in common use long before it got into Native hands. Saxon warriors and Celts during Roman times wielded axes and hatchets whether on land or sea. Within the context of this discussion I would suggest that early settlers did indeed use the "Hatchet" because it came FROM the settlers themselves ... whether it was used on land as a general weapon of war ( by settlers during the Indian wars ) could be debated ( I think it more than likely ) but its wide usage at sea as a European weapon of war is well documented and proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Sorry for the long post but I'm a history buff ...

Best, TR.

P.S ... As to the question I'd actually choose neither and instead opt for the Kukri ... it's got the benefits of both machete and hatchet in one.

http://www.heinnie.com/Kukri/KUK-M43.jpg

[Jericho117]

You can't make a machete from natural materials, but yet, with a tomahawk you can. So I say tomahawk. I have seen people make katana like swords from obsidian, but never a merchete. Give me a large flint nodule, a good hardwood sapling, rawhide and sinew, and some pinepitch and hide glue and a good tomahawk will be the outcome

[crashdive123]

Hey there Tikirocker - when you get a chance, drop by the introduction secton and give us a little history on yourself. Thanks.

[Runs With Beer]

Where can I see the pics?

[Runs With Beer]

BEO, I like your style. When you have a chance check out my Powder horn in making stuff, I would like to know what you think.

[klkak]

All this talk about "this vs that" reminds me of a line I heard once.

"when a man with a pistol face's a man with a winchester. the man with the winchester wins every time."

[Rick]

Perhaps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(axe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_%28axe))

I doubt many sailors boarded with stone tomahawks but I could be wrong.;)

The truth is, similar weapons/tools have found a place in most cultures for eons. The Japanese have used the Masakari-Ono for thousands of years. Similar and still quite different.

http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_master/710808_01_P_WE_4.jpg

What would you pay for a finely crafted Masakari Ono? Wait! Don't answer. If you call right now.......

[tsitenha]

I am very attached to my long handle hatchet, 1/14lb head 20" handle, almost 'hawk styled"

but I seldom ever venture out with only one cutting instrument with me.

[Rick]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/24/will_they_kill_the_grizzly_2.jpg

"But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
It is the East, and Juliet is the sun!
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
who is already sick and pale with grief
That thou her maid art far more fair than she."

Class? You want class? I'll show you class. Bring your pale skinny white but over here. I got your class right here bucko.

[tsitenha]

Now that's funny :D

[crashdive123]

I don't care who you are.

[Rick]

Then, of course, there are the bears no one talks about because no one sees them. Yet, they are there. Oh, so near. Watching. Waiting. Like a thought on the wind. A passing breeze. What was that? Only a shadow? Perhaps.

http://th01.deviantart.com/images3/150/i/2004/089/5/7/Stealth_Ninja_Bear.png

[chiye tanka]

All this talk about "this vs that" reminds me of a line I heard once.

"when a man with a pistol face's a man with a winchester. the man with the winchester wins every time."

Unless the guy with the pistol is Clint Eastwood.
Sorry, I had to.

[crashdive123]

even with the Winchester in the hands of Chuck Connors?

[klkak]

"The heart Ramone, don't forget, always aim for the heart"
http://www.eccentric-cinema.com/images2003/movie_pix_a-i/fistful_dollars06.jpghttp://www.italica.rai.it/cinema/film/pugno_dollari/pugno2.jpghttp://spaghettiwesterns.1g.fi/fistful/fist5.jpg

[chiye tanka]

That's what I'm talkin about.
Thanks klkak.

[Tikirocker]

I doubt many sailors boarded with stone tomahawks but I could be wrong.;)

The truth is, similar weapons/tools have found a place in most cultures for eons. The Japanese have

used the Masakari-Ono for thousands of years. Similar and still quite different.

What would you pay for a finely crafted Masakari Ono? Wait! Don't answer. If you call right now.......




Rick,

Agreed ... however, it is well documented that Native Americans possessed Boarding Axes through trade ... they imbued them with the same power and status as they did their own stone made tools. My point is merely that Tomahwak is but an Native term for something that just about every culture in the world already possessed in one form or another for thousands of years ... sailors in ancient times did indeed use stone tools by the way but by the 17th Century they had the metallurgy thing worked out.

At the end of the day ... it's a point of order ... the word Tomahawk may well be native to North America but the implement of axe/hatchet is not. As soon as Europeans arrived with better tools and weapons the Natives took them up through trade - they still called a steel headed Boarding Axe a Tomahawk ... it wasn't the material it was made from that was key but rather the implement itself. Do a search of images on Tomahawk and see how many stone versions crop up ... not many. By the time of the Indian Wars the Natives were adopting European Boarding Axe technology ... ie steel, for obvious reasons.

Lets take a trip down memory lane ... here's a forged Celtic Axe circa 100AD.

http://sk1.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/89e9b07301cfa46c

Here's an Iroquois Tomahawk circa Indian Wars ...

http://sk1.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/921f1c8a3ab192c6

And an Arapaho one ...

http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhibits/traditional_arts/resources/tomahawk.jpeg

And again the French Naval Boarding Axe ...

http://www.kwsantiques.de/bilder/edged/e160-2.jpg

Here are two British boarding axes circa 18th Century ...

http://www.gggodwin.com/boardingaxe.jpg

http://www.gggodwin.com/boardingaxe.2.jpg

I'm beginning to see a pattern here ...

As the saying goes ... there's nothing new under the sun; names for the same things in different cultural tongues have been confusing the issue since the fall of Babel. Might we say that a Tomahawk is but a variation on a long running theme? ;)

Cheers, TR.

[RaymondPeter]

I'm surprised that with everyone talking about European axes/hatchets nobody as mentioned the Francisa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisca

With it (and there other "basic" weapons) the Franks were nearly unstoppable.




Back to the survival issue. I would prefer a good hawk/hatchet for my AO. If I am able to I would choose both but that wasn't an option. They both have their pros and cons for ever situation. But for what is most likely to happen to me here or be needed to be done here, the hawk is more useful.

[tsitenha]

One thing, the metal hatchets, knives, muskets, copper/cast iron pots made life so much easier for us and all we had to do is trade of those dang beaver plews.

[HOP]

I like Hawks because I think they are cool and make excellent edged weapons . I like machetes because my uncle gave me one when I was 8 and they are very efficient cutting tools. For camp use I would prefer a forest Axe 18" handle with a pronounced poll.

[Rick]

Here's a camp ax with a lifetime warranty for $10.00

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200316257_200316257

[klkak]

I have 2 Wetterlings wildlife axe's. They are nice tools.

[tonester]

Here's a camp ax with a lifetime warranty for $10.00

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200316257_200316257

wow only 10$? thats a really good price. is it good quality?

[HOP]

Snow & Nealy have some quality axes . I have a couple Gransfor Bruks that are nice but I can't really say that they are the much higher price makes them that much better than whiter ling.
In the photo is first a Gransfor Bruks Hunters axe and below that is a similar axe by Whirtling and last is a repro British beltAxe that is IMHO a good combo of Hawk /hatchet/axe.
The 2 hunter axes were designed to skin, dress and butcher large animals like moose/http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r124/HOP_2007/100_0685.jpg

[Rick]

Northern Tool makes good tools. I've ordered from them several times in the past and have never been disappointed. Besides, with a lifetime warranty, you're pretty much covered. I don't own their camp ax so I can't say how well it keeps an edge but the reviews on that site indicate it is good quality.

[Pict]

For what it's worth, here in Pennsylvania, summer or winter I have never felt the lack of a hatchet when carrying my 12 inch Ontario machete. I tend to do the same things in the same way as I do in Brazil, only much less. I may be stuck in the mud on this issue but I carry a machete because the bulk of my wilderness cutting has been done with one and that is what I am used to, old habits die hard.

When considering what our ancestors used I think it is fair to assume that ships had both axes and cutlasses on board and that ship crews on land in the early days took them both ashore. Given climate and vegitation type it is no surprise that the axe/hatchet/hawk is the more useful tool in North America and the cutlass/machete is better in the tropics.

In this debate the one task that I can think of directly related to survival that clearly favors the axe is in cutting the massive amounts of firewood necessary to survive in cold climates. This simply is not something we have to do in the tropics. The coldest weather we get in Brazil, low fifties, is low enough to get you hypothermic given the tropical weight insulation typically carried there. A decent fire that will last the night through, capable of driving away a fifty degree chill is far smaller than what is necessary to sustain life in a northern forest on a "Brass Monkey Fahrenheit" night.

Generating that kind of a woodpile means taking down 4-8 inch diameter dead trees and bucking them up into firewood, axe down, saw to length, split with axe. You are not going to do that with a machete. In Brazil such a survival type fire entails collecting about four large armloads of deadwood and usually won't involve tools at all. There an axe is dead weight unless you go out planning to fell trees. In the northern forest the ability to fell dead trees is directly related to surviving night temps so carry an axe. Mac

Edited to add: On my Alaska hunt (15-20 degrees F) we carried a chainsaw in the truck and I carried a full sized axe on the ATV for just this reason. I did not carry a machete there.

[klkak]

You bring up some very good points Mac. Out at the trap line camp we have a chain saw, full sized axe, 8lb splitting maul and a hatchet. Not a single machete. However when I was in Central and South America I carried an 18 inch machete.

This past summer while guiding a tour I found a short stainless steel heavy bladed machete laying in the trail. It's made by MeyersCo. I brought it home and sharpened it up. It comes pretty close to bridging the gap between the hatchet and the machete.
http://www.knife-depot.com/images/product/4_29791.jpg
The Meyerco Axe & Machete Combo features a machete with a 420 stainless steel blade
Rubber over mold handle.
Comes complete with a nylon sheath.
Blade length is 12 5/8"
Overall length is 18 1/2"
Blade 1/4" thick
Blade 2 inch wide

[klkak]

Snow & Nealy have some quality axes . I have a couple Gransfor Bruks that are nice but I can't really say that they are the much higher price makes them that much better than whiter ling.
In the photo is first a Gransfor Bruks Hunters axe and below that is a similar axe by Whirtling and last is a repro British belt that is IMHO a god combo of Hawk /hatchet/axe.
The 2 hunter axes were designed to skin, dress and butcher large animals like moose.

I had the opportunity to compare the Gransfor and the Wetterlings at Northern Knives in Anchorage. The only difference I found was the finish and the price. The Gransfor being better finished and costing more.

[BK-72]

I think I'd prefer to carry both and use as the need arises.

[Rick]

You guys finally wore me down and I bought an Eastwing camp axe today. We'll see if I like it better than my Kurki.

http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/16/p2639216_x.jpg

[crashdive123]

Did you get it at Home Depot?

[Gray Wolf]

Isn't it called Estwing?

[Runs With Beer]

Pict, where con I see a pic of that machete by Ontario?

[Rick]

I bought it at Ace Hardware and yes it is an Estwing. Picky, picky, picky!

[rebel]

You guys finally wore me down and I bought an Eastwing camp axe today. We'll see if I like it better than my Kurki.



I've got one of those. It's one of the few pieces of gear that I can say was worth every cent. It performs it's intended task superbly.

[Pict]

Pict, where con I see a pic of that machete by Ontario?

The 12 inch Ontario is the one in my machete video

Machete Modifications for the Bush (http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=PVHeKNbRXgc)

Here's two shots of this machete before I had made any modifications.

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/9721/afskmachetecombovm2.jpg

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/5001/cocoontariomacheteow2.jpg

Mac

[RaymondPeter]

I bought it at Ace Hardware and yes it is an Estwing. Picky, picky, picky!

Good place that Ace... ;) Especially with my 15% discount! lol

I've been trying to get our store manager to order those in. We constantly sell out of their hammers.

[Runs With Beer]

Pict,Is that one more sturdy than the norm?

[Runs With Beer]

What Does The Sheath Look Like, I Think I Left The Cap On ?

[Runs With Beer]

WHAT IS THE small knife?

[klkak]

RwB, That small knife is a well used U.S. military pilots survival knife. They are heavy bladed with fairly soft steel. If you try to pry with them they will bend. I've wore out quite a few of them.

[tonester]

You guys finally wore me down and I bought an Eastwing camp axe today. We'll see if I like it better than my Kurki.

http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/16/p2639216_x.jpg

i really like the sheath on that estwing, very nice design on it.

[Rick]

It's called a Sportsman's axe. My local Ace ordered it for me. They didn't have it in stock either. The thing that ticked me off is I had received a $5 dollars off coupon in the mail. I thought, what timing, since I was going to purchase the axe anyway. I went to Ace and ordered the axe and by the time I got home had lost the coupon. @#$#$@##^. $5 bucks out the window!

Anywhoooo. I have several Estwing hammers and have used them all my life. I have 2 Estwing hammers that must be 30 years old and still...uh...hammering. Good quality stuff so I'm looking forward to the axe. Just 13 inches long. I'm hoping it will slip in one of the loops on the back of my Alice pack. Would make carrying it pretty easy.

[crashdive123]

I don't know if all of them carry Estwings, but the Home Depot's around here carry the one that you bought plus a bit larger one.

[Rick]

There is one called a campers axe that is 21" (I think). It was just a little big for my needs. I have a felling axe and a double bit axe here at the house as well as a splitter but I wanted something to carry on my pack. I'll try this guy and see how it works.

[Pict]

RWB,

Ontario makes an economy model that is lighter weight. This is their standard model with the thicker/heavier blade. I don't know the product code. They also make them with a saw back, which I don't recommend.

The knife is the Air Force Survival Knife by Ontario. For general wilderness tasks it can be made into a decent knife with some work but as it comes from the factory it is a poor performer once clear of the wreckage. According to its original purpose it is more of a pilots egress tool than a wilderness survival blade, hammer, puncture/cut fuselage, pry metal.

I've kept mine in its original configuration, only reprofiled the edge to a much sharper angle. Mac

[crashdive123]

Yep - campers axe - that's the other one they carry.

[RBB]

Did the American pioneers favor a tomahawk over a short sword or large bowie type knife? That is the perception I am lead to believe.

If the tomahawk was favored, why?

I ask because some on the forum seem to favor a machete. Both have a place but, if you have to choose between them which would you choose and why.

My thoughts on the above would be - American pioneers favored the tomahawk over short swords or bowie type knives for three reasons:

1. Economic: An iron tomahawk with a steel bit would be much cheaper than a large steel knife or sword.

2. Availability: As tomahawks were used for trade goods, they were much more available on the frontier. While some might state that knives were also used for trade goods - these knives were not in the "bowie" category and were more like our current day kitchen knives (the cheap ones).

3. Utility: A tomahawk can be used as a weapon or as a tool - in a much more versatile way than a bowie or a short sword (or machete).

[crashdive123]

Sarge - Move to General Survival

[chiangmaimav]

Like was said before, depends where you are. In America I always carried tomahawk in woods. My mother is native American and I was given one at a young age and learned to throw it very well, not that there is really much call for that anymore except in contests. In Thailand I carry parang which is like a machete but with a more pointed blade. it is very useful in the jungle. malaysians by the way in the martial art of silat learn a very advanced form of fighting with parangs and machetes and have used them in war as well as work for centuries, as have the Filipinos. Thais throughout history in warfare used hatchets and axes as well as swords.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Pict I really enjoyed the video, it was very informative and I think I will include the Ontario 12" machete in my BOB layout. I will feel well prepared knowing we will have a 'Hawk and machete. Also in keeping with the "debate" between the two. From what Little I know the mountain Men carried something along the lines of both, at least what they could get at that time. They learned from both societies and used the best of both worlds.... which is what I plan to do as well. I don't think it is really a "debate" over which is better, but how to be better prepared. Everyone has valid points and after reading this whole thread, I have decided that the best way is to carry both. There really is not a single "best" tool for all the different needs/uses. Just ask your auto mechanic,and see what he has in his toolbox. Having said that - let me better prepare my toolbox. Thanks all.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

Коро (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/7299)224.3 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/155)Agar (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/169)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1925-03)Sick (http://factoringfee.ru)Paul (http://filmzones.ru)XVII (http://gadwall.ru)Stan (http://gaffertape.ru)Alis (http://gageboard.ru)Pack (http://gagrule.ru)Batt (http://gallduct.ru)Prem (http://galvanometric.ru)Zero (http://gangforeman.ru)Epso (http://gangwayplatform.ru)10-5 (http://garbagechute.ru)
Mari (http://gardeningleave.ru)Orie (http://gascautery.ru)Bras (http://gashbucket.ru)Вели (http://gasreturn.ru)Kath (http://gatedsweep.ru)Kalm (http://gaugemodel.ru)Norv (http://gaussianfilter.ru)Глаз (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)Spek (http://geartreating.ru)10-4 (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)Loui (http://generalprovisions.ru)Bonn (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)Sens (http://geriatricnurse.ru)Mort (http://getintoaflap.ru)Geza (http://getthebounce.ru)
Сарь (http://habeascorpus.ru)учре (http://habituate.ru)�ерт (http://hackedbolt.ru)�тих (http://hackworker.ru)Herm (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)Ерма (http://haemagglutinin.ru)Tean (http://hailsquall.ru)Fusi (http://hairysphere.ru)valu (http://halforderfringe.ru)Paul (http://halfsiblings.ru)чело (http://hallofresidence.ru)Grea (http://haltstate.ru)Сы�о (http://handcoding.ru)И�ае (http://handportedhead.ru)Raze (http://handradar.ru)
Ñ�ерт (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)Brau (http://hangonpart.ru)Jean (http://haphazardwinding.ru)Cosm (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)рабо (http://hardasiron.ru)John (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)труб (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)Gran (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)Troy (http://hatchholddown.ru)чемп (http://haveafinetime.ru)Ð�тмо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)Wind (http://headregulator.ru)XVII (http://heartofgold.ru)Ð*оби (http://heatageingresistance.ru)Toto (http://heatinggas.ru)
ложн (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)Гана (http://jacketedwall.ru)Carn (http://japanesecedar.ru)«Ого (http://jibtypecrane.ru)Заго (http://jobabandonment.ru)Перв (http://jobstress.ru)Кель (http://jogformation.ru)Sche (http://jointcapsule.ru)пали (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)Roma (http://journallubricator.ru)Resi (http://juicecatcher.ru)Суши (http://junctionofchannels.ru)Wind (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)Lege (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)Mark (http://kaposidisease.ru)
фото (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)Wild (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)Disn (http://kentishglory.ru)ГулÑ� (http://kerbweight.ru)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://kerrrotation.ru)Sile (http://keymanassurance.ru)Drop (http://keyserum.ru)Cafe (http://kickplate.ru)03-1 (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)Laur (http://kilowattsecond.ru)Blad (http://kingweakfish.ru)Пиро (http://kinozones.ru/film/9747)Тихо (http://kleinbottle.ru)D-20 (http://kneejoint.ru)Alle (http://knifesethouse.ru)
Myse (http://knockonatom.ru)Бело (http://knowledgestate.ru)B-20 (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)Gard (http://labeledgraph.ru)Arts (http://laborracket.ru)Юрье (http://labourearnings.ru)мен� (http://labourleasing.ru)Зори (http://laburnumtree.ru)�ерт (http://lacingcourse.ru)Ansm (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)�ТВ- (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)Обух (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)Поно (http://ladletreatediron.ru)Stef (http://laggingload.ru)�тор (http://laissezaller.ru)
Noki (http://lambdatransition.ru)Laur (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)Harr (http://lammasshoot.ru)игру (http://lamphouse.ru)Poor (http://lancecorporal.ru)движ (http://lancingdie.ru)STAL (http://landingdoor.ru)Dani (http://landmarksensor.ru)Call (http://landreform.ru)Hami (http://landuseratio.ru)Park (http://languagelaboratory.ru)хоро (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1826988)укра (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1782426)FLAC (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1399)Прои (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/1030469)

[yellowcab]

Nord (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1030375)Mabe (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452587)Feli (http://layabout.ru/shop/601126)Book (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1327287)Wind (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/464957)Book (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/794552)Ð�рти (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1026685)Злот (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/447076)3955 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/862027)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/789734)WALL (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/558515)Гран (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/788951)подÑ� (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/1151469)FORD (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/613888)лент (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1175842)
Юго� (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1179388)лече (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/611)Mode (http://mp3lists.ru/item/9483)пред (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1532915)кра� (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/1033963)Фено (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462969)�ужд (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1206846)Бело (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/925484)игру (http://navelseed.ru/shop/454291)Wall (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/460329)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/186264)Суха (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/652278)mail (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/653237)Шапо (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/471904)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru)
Ñ�ерт (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/1032627)Laco (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570488)Whis (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/573230)прак (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/151010)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/1254536)Jane (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/288287)Side (http://onesticket.ru/shop/584141)Scen (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/585340)конк (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/689566)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/690469)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/956376)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/682779)XVII (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/1060647)Фана (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1708829)курÑ� (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1177002)
�тат (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1382633)Пол� (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1499107)Петр (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1545379)Adam (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1690675)наук (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/656010)Walt (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/913536)(Кир (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1209263)унив (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1421795)XIII (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/1458979)Jovi (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/517582)Read (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/884196)Мири (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/933019)Stev (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1078744)о�тр (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1401469)(Дик (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1556761)
Пома (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/527826)�нон (http://rearchain.ru/shop/879807)styl (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/918869)Матв (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1654871)Lyma (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1662185)Пере (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1668264)�куч (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1689819)У�пе (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1714204)Форм (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1773663)праз (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1777351)Юлда (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1822800)авто (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1828795)Трах (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1856126)Крав (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1881822)прав (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1918578)
газе (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1931050)нача (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1950311)Mich (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1963936)�тер (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1973472)Жури (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1462838)Черн (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1497938)Тали (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/1576529)доад (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/1653810)Спит (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1679759)�амо (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1695842)FLAC (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1399)FLAC (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1399)FLAC (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1399)Savi (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/487902)Топо (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/1762283)
карт (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1773221)Жуко (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1776405)выру (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/491825)Inst (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/505559)Молч (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1855634)Заре (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901829)архи (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1963945)Ð*убц (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/881948)МанÑ� (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/926640)Льво (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/986116)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Каме (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/986680)учил (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/488377)