Another stuck case :(

[finallyME]

So Saturday, we had a birthday party for my now 6 year old son. Spent the morning fixing up the bike I bought his now 13 year old brother 10 years ago. Put 2 new tubes in the tires, bought a new tire for the worn out one, filled the tires with slime, slapped on the training wheels, and he spent the day riding back and forth in front of the house. Anyways, my BIL came over with the new .22lr that he bought his 8 yr old son. Marlin bolt action with a heavy barrel and a crisp trigger. Anyways, I had to show him my new glock and before we knew it, we were off to the desert to try them both out. I brought my AR for fun. I shot the AR a little, my son did as well, but when my BIL tried it out, stuck case. We were close to 100 rounds at that point. The case was jammed in the chamber. It fired, just didn't eject, and then the next round jams it in tighter. The only way to get it out is with a stiff rod down the barrel. I was using Tula all day, and this is the second time it has happened...the other was with Tula as well. Walmart sells the Tula for $5.50 a box of 20. My Walmart just starting stocking the American Eagle at $7.50ish a box of 20. Not giving up on Tula, but will not consider it a "defensive" round at all.

[crashdive123]

Is the case expanding to prevent extraction or do you think it is another issue?

[kyratshooter]

FM it is the Tula ammo.

I have the same problem and avoid Tula at all cost. I do not know if it is the steel case, the polymer coating, higher pressures or weaker case rims. The case sticks and the rim is obviously deformed when I inspect. I get stuck cases in all my AR units with Tula.

If you fire a magazine of mixed ammo you can tell when you hit the Tula round. It will be louder and have measurably more recoil.

Wolf and other surplus rounds do not give me this problem.

I bought a batch of Tula on sale, discovered this same problem you mention, and have set it aside for use in my bolt actions and SS guns.

Tula works fine in my AK and SKS, so the problem is with the .223/5.56.

[natertot]

I am not certain on this, but it might be a combination of the ammo with the extractor. I have heard others having issues like yours with some steel ammo (but not all) and the ones who upgraded their extractor said it beca m e a non issue. Last guy I spoke to said he used an extractor made by volquartsen, not sure if I spelled that right.

[Ralph Rotten]

Before I blamed the ammo I'd run a good stiff wire brush through that chamber a few times. Make sure you don;t have leading or buildup texturing the lining.
Also look at your extractor, it could be worn.
Or it could just be lousy Russian ammo.

[kyratshooter]

This was the famous issue that caused the bad reputation of the M16 when it was first adopted. Cases not extracting and double feed of a new round on the empty.

All the initial testing had been done with one type ammo and when the issue ammo arrived it was loaded with a powder not designed with the burn rate needed by the AR.

Usually an extractor upgrade is the replacement of the spring, plunger and O-ring and not the extractor itself.

[finallyME]

I doubt my extractor is worn out. I have only had this rifle for a little over a year.... and I don't shoot that much. It is a BCM bolt. I bought the whole upper as one piece.

I am pretty sure it is the ammo. I don't mind running it through my AR, simply because it is cheap. And when you take people out to shoot for fun, you don't get anything productive done. You just get a bunch of people who want to shoot as fast as possible. so, I only let them shoot Tula, and I only load the mag to 20 rounds, and I only bring a certain amount of ammo so there is a definite stopping point.

When I plan to go either by myself or just with my son to actually practice, I will use something better.

I don't know what is happening to cause it to stick.

[Grizz123]

Try lubing your tula before shooting it, maybe that will help?

[Wildthang]

Get rid of that crap at a gun show and buy some Wolf ammo!

[natertot]

I doubt my extractor is worn out.

I definitely don't think the extractor is worn out. Those that I have talked to that upgraded the extractor said that it was only with steel cases and it wasn't even with all steel cases, just some. They had the thought that entry level extractors aren't "aggressive" enough, aren't to a certain spec, or of a design that just didn't work on everything. Just something that I have heard on multiple occasions (some from reliable sources, some not so much) but have no experience with myself.

[kyratshooter]

I would think that if it is a BCM bolt then it probably already has their upgraded extractor set up. They make one of the popular upgrades.

And do not lube your Tula ammo. At the pressures the 5.56 works at you do not need lube in the chamber.

Just like with the Mosin Nagant surplus ammo we get, some of it has a heavy polymer coating on the steel to protect it from rust. I have notice many times that the thickly coated ammo sticks and is responsible for the stuck bolt syndrome on the MN

The Tula 5.56 has a very strange feel to this polymer and I suspect it melts and adheres to the chamber causing this problem.

That is not a scientific diagnosis, just what I have noticed mixed with speculation.

It is like going to the doctor and telling him "it hurts when I do this", and his advice is "then don't do that!". I have no problems with any other ammo so I just avoid the Tula.

[hunter63]

...............
It is like going to the doctor and telling him "it hurts when I do this", and his advice is "then don't do that!". I have no problems with any other ammo so I just avoid the Tula.

I agree.

Sometimes the simplest solution is the most sensible....
So...you are gonna spend $200 bucks for changing parts and or up grades to shoot crap ammo?.....
Just avoid that ammo.

[finallyME]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize they coated the casings. I can see that causing the case to stick in. And then since the extractor didn't grab it, the next round just jams it in harder.

Like I said before, I don't plan on giving up on the ammo. I just won't use it for "important" stuff like actually training, or trying to shoot a tight group, or heaven forbid an actual SHTF scenario. I won't count my Tula stash as my SHTF stash. But, I will continue to use it when I bring out the nephews and nieces and other in-laws to just shoot for fun. Just need to remember to put a long dowel or cleaning rod in the car for when it sticks.

I have already started stocking up on the American Eagle stuff. It seems to be the next cheapest round. It is all brass cased, so I don't foresee much problem. I really need to start reloading.

[hunter63]

I take a 3 ft long brass rod along to the range with the "tools"....It gets borrowed a lot.

I had re-loaded some 7 mm mag in a Lee Loader "Bop a Mole", one of my first attempts....and didn't have a good crip/or case trimmed.
Brass had been fire in a Browning and I had picked it up.
Had to use that rod for a couple of rounds.
Took all rounds back down with bullet puller,.... ran them thru the full sizer die (with primer pin remover)....measured the cases, trimmed where necessary, reloaded and used the factory crimp.

Note: Now I always try a loaded round at home when the first couple are loaded for this reason.

That rod has been used a lot.

[Ralph Rotten]

Wolf used to laquer their cases as well but stopped doing it to 556 because of the buildup in the chamber (AKs don't care about the laquer). Like I said, run a wire brush thru the chamber, get that stuff outta there.

[pmcjuryny]

I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but I read a study a while back about various steel cased rounds, and stuck cases. As I recall the problem was attributed to carbon build up in the chamber.

The steel case doesn't expand as much as a brass case, and doesn't seal the chamber as well as a brass case allowing more gazes and carbon to flow into the chamber and stick to the walls.

It seems plausible that tula cases are slightly harder steel then other brands, and could make the problem worse.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[kyratshooter]

Seems to me that if it were carbon build up or dirty chamber then simply switching to the next magazine of a different ammo would not solve the problem. From the first hint of "stuck case" there would be failures until the chamber is cleaned, and that is not the case.

I have nothing against cleaning you rifle, but this problem is cured in the field by removing the offending case and changing ammo. If it were a dirty chamber issue then everything would stick.

I can shoot hundreds of rounds of Wolf steel case through my rifles with no problem but have had Tula stuck in the chamber on first round from a clean chamber a couple of times.

[Hummer70]

Kyratshooter is correct, stay away from that ammo.

The early M16s were loaded with two types of propellant, IMR8208M (a stick propellant) and WCC846 (a ball propellant). A propellant coating on the WCC846 early lots caused problems as indicated above. All US arsenal ammo is now loaded with WCC846 and the problem identified above disappeared in the 1960s time frame loadings.

After that pitting the chambers caused a failure to extract condition and the chambers were chrome plated, later the chamber and the bores were chrome plated to reduce the pitting.

I once went to a funeral and came home with a SKS and bore was dirty so I cleaned it and to the naked eye taking a quick glance it looked fine but I spotted something so pulled out my borescope for a looksee. The Combloc ammo was so corrosive that it had eaten through the chrome plating all the way down the barrel. I dumped that one quick.

A goodly amount of Combloc ammo is steel cased which means it has to be coated to keep the cases from rusting prior to firing. When fired the protective coating comes off and stays in chamber. Go to any range where it has been fired and look at the cases people did not pick up. It is all rusted 7.62X39 and 7.62X54 and it is rusting away. Brass cases will turn black left in the weather but can be cleaned up to look good as new with stainless steel pin cleaning in a Thumlers Tumbler Mod B where you can tumble 100 to 200 cases at a time depending on caliber.

To my knowledge the vast majority of 223/5.56 commercial loading is done with ball propellant.

I do not use ball propellant in 223/5.56 because it is known to be highly erosive on barrels.

I conducted a 244,000 round test of the M16A1E1 for the Marine Corps who had a barrel life requirement of 12,000 rounds. The test ammo had FN 62 gr bullets loaded by Lake City with WCC846 and the barrels were right at rejection at 4800 round test interval. At 6000 rounds at 600 meters they were grouping over twelve feet vertically and 6 feet wide. I stopped the test.

A conference was convened and we arrived at a new test scenario where we fired three more rifles with same ammo, three more with M193 and three more with SS109 loaded by FN and headstamped FNB. The first two scenarios failed at the same point. The FN FNB SS109 was still in spec at 12,000 rounds! ! ! ! ! We ran 10,000 rounds a day for 14 straight days.

I already knew the WCC846 was highly erosive but that confirmed it. What is worse is there is ball propellant out there that is even more erosive.

CIP propellant is accepted by the Army only after it has been tested and put on a QPL (qualified products list). A series of tests are conducted and a rejection criteria is in place. First test place a MG in a hard stand and shoot three ten shot groups at 100 yards on indoor range. Velocity and dispersion are recorded. Then take it into high temp room and fire 50 round bursts for 10,000 rounds. Take it back to indoor range and shoot three more ten shot groups and record velocity,dispersion again and examine the data for:

A. Excessive dispersion.
B. Loss of velocity
C. Bullet yaw at 25 yards.

As I left the Proving Ground a candidate lot had just failed one of the three above and they sent 330,000 rounds to the burning ground to be destroyed.

Criteria B has never been met but A and C failures have rejected lots time and again.

[finallyME]

Went to Wally world today and decided to pick up some Tula if they had any. They did, but they also has some Perfecta. I guess Perfecta is made by Tula, but it is brass cased. Anyways, at first I was getting some 9mm and the Perfecta was cheaper at $9.78 for a box of 50 instead of $10+ for the steel cased Tula. Then I asked for the Tula in 223 and the lady asked if I wanted the Perfecta instead. It was a box of 50 instead of 20, and when I did the price comparison per round, it came out to a $.01 more per round for the Perfecta. $14.94 for a box of 50. All Brass casing. If it shoots well, I will probably only get this stuff instead for messing around and having fun with other people. How is everyone else's luck with Perfecta?

[Seniorman]

Must be your ammo. A good AR 15 runs very, very well with non-cheapo ammo. Watch this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSizVpfqFtw

See what good ammo will do? :yes:

S.M.

[Rick]

I don't get it. The waste of a good ammo and the destruction of a weapon. Any weapon will fail if you abuse it enough. It was steel case ammo but we don't know anything other than that.

[Seniorman]

I don't get it. The waste of a good ammo and the destruction of a weapon. Any weapon will fail if you abuse it enough. It was steel case ammo but we don't know anything other than that.

Rick, I'll hazard a guess that guy gets his ammo free from some place.

S.M.

[pete lynch]

.....How is everyone else's luck with Perfecta?

I have no problems using Perfecta in .380 or 9mm.
I also use the Brassmaxx in 9mm for practice rounds. It is distributed in the US by Tula'. It is made in Bosnia.

[madmax]

fm, thanks for this thread. I was about to order a big batch of Tula online. I believe I'll spend a little more and hopefully avoid the frustration.

[canid]

I've shot a ton of it. I can live with the odd ftf and out of spec case/seating (I've seen more problems with failure to go into battery than failure to extract; if I don't try to force them home I won't really worry about them coming out). I just wouldn't shoot it in an action that isn't strong enough to trust an over charged cartridge (just because quality control problems in one area makes me believe they will occur in others), that isn't safe against out of battery fire and I definitely wouldn't use it if I ever had to count on it. It's plinking ammo to me.

[kyratshooter]

fm, thanks for this thread. I was about to order a big batch of Tula online. I believe I'll spend a little more and hopefully avoid the frustration.

Aim Surplus has Wolf for the same price as other dealers sell Tulla.

That is, if they have any left! They were getting pretty much looted earlier this morning.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AW223FMJ62&name=Wolf+WPA+.223+62grn+FMJ+20rd+Box&groupid=21

It is good ammo and if you really want to avoid the frustration go ahead and order 500 rounds and get the case discount for 20 rounds @ $4.50 =$0.23 cents per shot.

[Wildthang]

Another stuck case

Head in the sand

Tried to save some change

Now I'm missing a hand:scared:

[canid]

That is a good point; if the Wolf and Tula are priced the same I see no reason to prefer the Tula.

[madmax]

Thanks for the heads up kyratshooter.

[finallyME]

Wouldn't Wolf have the same problems? I though it was steel cased as well. Never used it so....

[finallyME]

I don't get it. The waste of a good ammo and the destruction of a weapon. Any weapon will fail if you abuse it enough. It was steel case ammo but we don't know anything other than that.

Rick, it is called marketing. People will click on the video to watch it..and it promotes their gun store.

[Rick]

Fine. I still don't get it. It's like all those destruction knife videos. Abuse them till they break.

[canid]

It sounds like you do get it. You're describing it perfectly.

[finallyME]

Fine. I still don't get it. It's like all those destruction knife videos. Abuse them till they break.

Since when are you suppose to understand marketing? :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

[kyratshooter]

Have you guys ever been to a faculty meeting at your local school?

That is where they got the idea for that film.

Only difference is that after asking someone to perform the impossible feat they follow it with "but its for the children!"

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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