Propane generator ?

[backtobasics]

I just bought a propane/gas generator. Not really interested in running gas but I do know that when running gas engines at high elevation jets in the carb have to be change for it to run proper. My question is if I live at 4200ft and run only propane will I still need some sort of adjustment? I've never worked with propane engine before. TIA MIKE It does run I just want max efficiency.

[hunter63]

Have you tried getting ahold of the manufacturer?
What is the brand?

I would have said check the manual...but these days all that is a big book of "Thou shall not's"

Was doing research on a clothes washer that may or may not need winterizing as the heat and power is turned off in the winter.
Was a PITA.... but finally got ahold or a tech rep that related the addition of anti-freeze in a wash cycle to winterize the unit.

[hunter63]

As this thread kinda died, would have been interested in an answer on the altitude question......but did put the questions in my mind.....
How much do these units cost?......
Would it make sense if not on grid?
Comparable to solar/wind/Hydro?

Grid costs are: City house .139450 per KH, The Place .109600 per KH from the Co-op.

As luck would have it....and a Lowes (big box home improvement store) ad appeared in the local paper for a Generac 22K dual fuel, propane/NG....but not gasoline.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_598659-24212-6553_0__?productId=50223267&cm_mmc=SCE_PLA_ONLY-_-OutdoorPowerEquipment-_-SosGenerators-_-50223267:Generac&CAWELAID=320011480002831246&kpid=50223267&CAGPSPN=pla&k_clickID=7e5d6368-ccbe-46a5-bb85-6a1776ef2cfc

Came with transfer switch priced at $4319......

Doing some research...(called them)...to find that you can BUY one but need to have licensed installers install (by code).
Deal is...you kinda have to know what you are doing with electrical, to keep to code, and do the transfer switch so as to NOT kill a lineman if your system is back feeding onto the line.

This is also concern for grid tied solar/wind/hydro self generation systems.

So unit is priced at $4319.....but I wanted a estimate of installation costs.....they would not give a general idea (Guy actually hung up on me...LOL)...but would send out a sales person....Not planning on buying one.

The city house is NG, but "The Place" is propane (for now)....and if I were to move, the gen-set would come with me.

Note....furnaces and A/C units are handled the same way.....those stores sell units THRU a contractor....so you really have a bad time rolling up to their dock and loading one in your truck.....For liability and code concerns.

Also note the as a general rule of thumb......installation cost are generally equal to the unit/parts cost on furnaces/A/C unit.....So double the cost, so about $8638.....or there about.

FYI
The local WE energy company (elect & NG) used to offer subsidized stand-by unit sales....they backed financing, but no longer do at this time.

Also FYI.....
Natural Gas (NG) would continue to flow in a disaster, tornado, flood, fire, riot....what ever, unless the lines are Manually shut off...some one has to do it in different locations....
Just keep that in mind, as that may be good of bad?????

From information I was able to find...we have 2 main NG lines coming in to the county.....I sure all information and location are not listed....as those lines would make a good target, I would think.

Anyway....power outages at the city house are very rare.....not enough to justify $9000 hard wired unit....the 7500w would power couple of lights, media, furnace, and refrigerators/freezers.

The Place would need propane, but really the only thing I NEED power for, is refrigerator and pump...again a 7500w unit works well.

[kyratshooter]

I wonder what the cost per KW/hr is for the unit?

[hunter63]

I wonder what the cost per KW/hr is for the unit?

That's a real interesting question....
I wonder if you can even calculate if it only runs "on demand"....figure out what power out put is at idle, or low load....and what the output is under heavy load......would cost vary?

[LowKey]

I had a smaller unit installed by a plumber. Don't let the box store or factory store do it. I had a factory store guy come out and estimated north of $14,000 all in and he wouldn't put it where I wanted it (I wanted it on the downwind side of the house to keep the exhaust out of the soffit vents, and the noise away from the bedrooms.)

Had a plumbing contractor buy it (needed one anyway to do the gas hook-up), dug my own trenching for the gas line (tanks have to be at minimum 10' away from the generator unit or whatever your state code is), and poured my own footing for the generator (with eyebolts to secure with chain to slow down any thieves.) The plumber had an electrician buddy who did the extra long wiring needed to put the genny downwind. The genny cost in the area of $3800, the install another $2K-ish and the tank initial rental and fill another $1500. I have a contract that if a certain amount of propane is used, the tank rental is free. Since the machine exercises itself every week for 10 minutes, and there is always a power outage or two, I've hit the minimum so far.

Here's the spec sheet on your 22K. Is there enough info there to do the math for kwh based on your local gas rates?
http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/guardian-series/0k8458-g-16-20kw-hsb.pdf

[hunter63]

I had a smaller unit installed by a plumber. Don't let the box store or factory store do it. I had a factory store guy come out and estimated north of $14,000 all in and he wouldn't put it where I wanted it (I wanted it on the downwind side of the house to keep the exhaust out of the soffit vents, and the noise away from the bedrooms.)

Had a plumbing contractor buy it (needed one anyway to do the gas hook-up), dug my own trenching for the gas line (tanks have to be at minimum 10' away from the generator unit or whatever your state code is), and poured my own footing for the generator (with eyebolts to secure with chain to slow down any thieves.) The plumber had an electrician buddy who did the extra long wiring needed to put the genny downwind. The genny cost in the area of $3800, the install another $2K-ish and the tank initial rental and fill another $1500. I have a contract that if a certain amount of propane is used, the tank rental is free. Since the machine exercises itself every week for 10 minutes, and there is always a power outage or two, I've hit the minimum so far.

Here's the spec sheet on your 22K. Is there enough info there to do the math for kwh based on your local gas rates?
http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/guardian-series/0k8458-g-16-20kw-hsb.pdf

Thanks for looking that up....
Looking it over, it does give you a usage rate per hour, both at 1/2 load and full load,....
So yeah, going by local costs for NG and propane, I sure you can calculate a cost per KwH.

I guess my question would be cost of continuing to run... to take up phantom loads, ie....indicator lights, units cycling on/off as needed etc.
Electric cost depending on your unit running, all the time, vs restarting or battery bank (whole 'nother can of worms).......may be pretty high.

I have heard horror stories, even in my location, where some one purchased land, and is like 1/2 mile (example) for a line...so cost for poles, line, transformer... installation.....was quoted in the thousands of dollars, one guy 30K.

So yeah, may be less expensive to go off grid.

Note, neighbor up the hill from me has a straw-bale home, that was off grid to start with....Solar arrays, and batteries....15kw system......cost approx. $30K in 2002 or so....
They are now on grid tied service....first one by our Co-op....as the Co-op was installing new line down the road.

Bottom line is, MOST people can get by with a LOT less power than they use.....

Note, I am not seriously considering a unit such as this....but was curious as to cost, installation, availability of fuel.....etc.
I DO research projects, before going ahead .......so this was one of those drills

After an energy audit provided by my C0-op, ....I decided that I needed more insulation, (working on it), windows (done), and trying to conserve....all cheaper and better pay back, than manufacturing energy.

Thanks for your help....and I hope this discussion helps some one faced with the realities and real costs of "Going off grid".....which sounds Green and saves bunnies....but is a whole different world.

BTW...I agree with hiring your own contractor......
While in the HVAC business, the guy I worked for want to break into this part of the market...Big box store, sales and service.....

He had to get approved, jump thru hoops and cut the store in on install costs...as well as being one of many "the be allowed to bid" on these jobs.....and really never made any money.
These jobs were a dollar trading situation to keep crews busy.

If I chose to do this, that would be what I would do.....

Price on an ad is NOT the real cost.

[backtobasics]

FYI the one I bought cost $600 and will run pretty much everything in the house. When I get my new land it will be mostly solar but nice to have a generator that runs on a fuel that does not go bad. That's the main reason for propane to me. Seems to run fine. Shakes a little at idle.

[backtobasics]

BTW this is a small one and we run it off of propane tanks.

[hunter63]

BTW this is a small one and we run it off of propane tanks.

You do know that these cheap gen-sets are not designed to run all the time ....Right?
Maybe have two.....if one stops?

[backtobasics]

You do know that these cheap gen-sets are not designed to run all the time ....Right?
Maybe have two.....if one stops?

It won't be running all the time just for tools and emergencies. The power where I live now goes out almost every winter for awhile so we would use it then and more than likely only for a few hours. It will be a few years before we move to the land and by then I'll have solar and maybe some propane lights. Well will be solar also. I've lived off grid before for about 4 years in the Nevada desert.

[Ralph Rotten]

I's like to get one of the new Honda propane gennies [portable]. They make a few quiet enough to meet US forestry regulations on sound. Small, light, and portable.

[LowKey]

Quiet is a relative term. Some of the big rig truckers that move our product have those propane gennies for their sleeper cabs. They run them most of the night if they show up the night before a load out. Maybe a little quieter than a lawn mower. Better than idling the actual truck motor though.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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