Scout setup for Marlin 336 [Archive] - Wilderness Survival Forums

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Stulanger

11-07-2015, 11:36 AM

Just ordered an XS lever rail ghost ring sight set for my Remlin 336w. Anyone have experience with running a 336 or other lever gun scout style? I haven't decided on weather I want to run a red dot or a long eye relief scope. Suggestions, comments, ideas on installation of rail, long eye relief scope vs. red dot, scope choice etc... would be appreciated.

hunter63

11-07-2015, 04:12 PM

I guess I am missing the reasoning for a "scout mount" anything.

Put a scout scope set up on a Mosin Nagant Bubba-ized version.....(too bad was a 1917 Hex Remington)......
So went with a sight mount kit.....take off the ramp sight and mount a rail in its place with a scope.
Was the easiest option.

My rifles that are scoped, so as to pull up and the scope is perfectly lined up with my eye....but with much shorter eye relief than the MN....of course I haven't really practiced too much with it.....????

Guess lots of guys like them...and would wish I understood the reasoning better.

Mosin Nagant Bubba

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/DSCF1245.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/hunter63/media/DSCF1245.jpg.html)

Stulanger

11-07-2015, 09:46 PM

Hunter. I read this article and I thought the authors ideas made a lot of sense. http://www.chuckhawks.com/win94_scout_rifle.htm I'm not sure if I'll take to it but I think it's worth a try considering it goes with the multipurpose hunting-survival-self defense build I'm going for with this particular gun. Too bad about that Bubbaized Mosin but it looks good with the scout setup. Supposedly forward mounting a scope lets you maintain your peripheral vision and acquire your target faster which is important to me because I tend to hunt in high pressure areas where the deer are skittish and rarely stand still for long. I'm going to try hunting with just the ghost ring this gun season and maybe try out a few different types of optics to figure out which one I like the best.

hunter63

11-07-2015, 10:29 PM

Back in Jeff Coopers day...Win 94's had a top eject....so most scopes were side saddle....PITA....so scout mount made sense, as did the MN..... needing hole drilled, special mount and bolt mod-ed.

I don't have a problem with scout mount scopes....I just haven't used one much....so was just asking what the attraction was.

I am concerned with that sight mount as the number of screws involved......

Keep use posted on what you come up with, and how you like it.

Stulanger

11-07-2015, 11:34 PM

"Back in Jeff Coopers day...Win 94's had a top eject....so most scopes were side saddle....PITA....so scout mount made sense, as did the MN..... needing hole drilled, special mount and bolt mod-ed."

Yep. I think the loading (stripper clips) and ejection of spent cases were two of the main arguments for the forward mounted scope back in the day.

" I don't have a problem with scout mount scopes....I just haven't used one much....so was just asking what the attraction was."

Yes sir. No problem. :) I think the main attraction for me is the idea of having a setup that is fast handling and versatile. I had it in my mind that I might get myself another mini-14 one day soon but the more I handle and shoot the 336 the more I question weather I need another gun just to fill the homestead defense role when a 30-30 lever gun could be just as formidable and a better hunting/survival gun to boot. I think that the lever action scout carbine would have many of the advantages of both a traditional scout rifle such as Col. Cooper espoused and the ubiquitous tactical carbine. The aspect that attracts me to the forward mounted scope option is the supposedly faster target acquisition and the fact that it lets you shoot with both eyes open and keep your peripheral vision in tact; two things that would be more important in a self defense/survival scenario where you might have to get off quick shots on moving targets and keep an eye out for targets in your peripheral. Also, as I mentioned, I hunt high pressure areas where you are more likely to have to take a running shot on a deer. The one thing I have never liked about aiming through a traditionally mounted scope is the fact that I always have to take a couple of seconds to re-orient myself when looking through a magnified lens. The way I understand it; having a forward mounted scope would allow you to be aware of the area around your target while still being able to take advantage of having your target area magnified.

"I am concerned with that sight mount as the number of screws involved......"

Roger that. I'm hoping that thread locker they include with the kit will do the trick and hold the thing fast to my gun.

"Keep use posted on what you come up with, and how you like it"

Will do and thanks for your input. It's much appreciated. :)

kyratshooter

11-07-2015, 11:47 PM

I have done several scout mounts and use them frequently. I have at lest five guns set up with the LER scope, maybe more I can't remember.

The one in my avatar is an Enfield based rifle. I have the MN like Hunter's and I have done a 12gause and 20 gauge shotgun as scout mounts. I also did a 94 Winchester with a SM but did not like it on that rifle because it changed the handling characteristics of the rifle. I went back to a ghost ring peep on that.

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o771/Mortblanc/DSCF1190_zpsc0582cf1.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/Mortblanc/media/DSCF1190_zpsc0582cf1.jpg.html)

I have used them enough to develop some opinions in depth. I built my first one back when Cooper was in his heyday and found the concept valid, at least in a limited way, for me.

First of all, The scout is best if you are a versatile person, switching from scopes to open sights to red dots shooting a lot of guns. Attaining a sight picture is actually quicker with the LER pistol scope and I am faster with the scout mount. I am more accurate with the standard mounted scope off a bench, but the scout is faster for me.

It is also more accurate for me than iron sights.

It is a compromise application for me, and not one that I want on each and every firearm. I also would not attempt to force their use on anyone, since I do not consider it a universal concept.

You have to like the concept, use it enough to get comfortable with it and realize it will not work on every gun and might not be best if used on your only gun.

When used on a shotgun it allows me to mount the scope on the barrel and switch from one barrel to the other without messing up the zero of the scope. That allows me to use my shotgun for turkey in the morning, birds in the afternoon and deer in the evening and never have to check the zero.

As for the Red Dot thing...

I like red dots, but I like scopes too, so my compromise has been the scope on the shotgun in the picture which you can not really see in detail. It is a LER 2-7x with illuminated reticle.

The illuminated crosshairs are as fast as a red dot and work well in minimal light. The scope can also be used without the illumination as a normal scope. That also solves the problem some people have where the dot tends to "wash out" in bright daylight.

I do not think there is any optical system that is faster than a red dot in close, fast hunting or for close and frantic self defense. My first "care package" to my stepson in Iraq way back in 2004 contained an Aim Point for his M4. He used it through two tours.

I sometimes use red dot sights as temporary mounts. They are extremely handy for that since eye relief is not a factor in their use. I will super glue and clamp a mount on a shotgun barrel for testing loads. I sometimes do the same thing on Muzzle loaders since their lock work does not accept a simple scope on the rear of the rifle. Take the clamp off and hit the mount with a blast from a torch and it pops right off.

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o771/Mortblanc/DSCF1198_zps21de3a24.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/Mortblanc/media/DSCF1198_zps21de3a24.jpg.html)

And do not forget that Cooper was not insistent on the LER scope for his "Scout rifle" concept. He accepted rear mounted scopes as well as Iron sighted scout rifles. He was more concerned with length, weight, and power when considering the scout rifle, if that is a concern. Less than one meter length, less than 4kg, power to take large game out to the range limits of the shooter.

I have always felt that Cooper was not concerned with the scout as a tactical rifle except in emergency situations. Seemed he considered it a form of modern frontiersman's' tool, just as the long rifle was two centuries ago and the Winchester '73 of the 1800s.

Stulanger

11-08-2015, 09:20 PM

Hey K-rat. Lots of good information in your post. I like what you did with that Mossy. I may do something similar with my 870 express at some point if I like the scout setup on my 336. I feel like the XS lever rail will give me enough real estate to try a bunch of different types of optics as well as giving me the option of just using the ghost ring which I am very eager to try out. I think that I will probably go with some QD rings for whatever optics I decide to run so I can change them out quickly. I just happen to have a couple of IR scope sitting around I might give them a try before I shell out more money for a new scope or red dot. That's a really novel idea using the red dot as a temporary mount; never thought of gluing sights to a gun before! The scout rifle concept is a new one for me. I don't know if I'll like it in practice but the philosophy is sound. I think that the lever action scout carbine would be, as you say, a compromise, but a good one between the scout rifle proper and a tactical carbine. It would be faster handling and pack more firepower than a bolt action but it would give up some ground to the bolt gun in range and ballistic performance. It would not be as fast handling or have quite as much available firepower as an AR, SKS or Mini but would have more knockdown power for taking big game at closer ranges. Versatility is my goal with this build and, as I'm sure you know very well, versatility is a game of give and take. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of my needs first and foremost. As a tactical rifle a lever action would be a poor choice when considering other better suited options but it is very unlikely that I will ever be in the front lines of a major armed conflict. I could however imagine a scenario where I'm hiking through public land and stumble upon someone's illegal crop or a hidden meth operation. In that type of scenario I would want something equally capable of defending myself from armed assailants as it would be of killing a deer or bear just in case things went bad. I think that a 30-30 lever action carbine would be better in that type of scenario than a bolt gun in .308 though perhaps not quite as good as an AR, SKS or Mini but if it came to stopping a charging black bear or hunting deer I would have to give the advantage to the 30-30. Paired with a good, accurate .22 revolver I think that would be just about the ideal firearms combination for the modern woodsman and would fit very well into my idea, if not Col. Cooper's idea, of a modern frontiersman's tool for an eastern woodland environment. I'm not worried so much about what would be good for the Alaskan bush or the Kansas prairie just what would be a good, solid, reliable survival tool in my native environment. Sorry for the rant. Just thinking out loud I guess. Thanks for giving me some food for thought.

hunter63

11-08-2015, 09:34 PM

Ahhhhh....
Just appoint of interest....most armed bad guys doing illegal things, in the woods are probably much better armed and a lot more of them, in their AO ...best just back away.....you are not gonna win a gunfight.

We all seem to be the hero in our minds.....as does everyone else.

Each to his own....but a combat ready rig is not in any of my hunting scenario's gear load out.

Blood Groove

11-08-2015, 10:01 PM

The Hi Lux Leatherwood 2-7x32 is imo the best scout scope for the money. Its Sturdy, it's clear, it does well with light, it's a nice variable power, easy to see in scout style and it's nice and light for a 2-7 scout scope. 12 oz. and the weight of a scout scope can ruin everything when it's mounted forward on the gun over the support arm. I've used the scope on my ruger act for 3 years and it's been through hundreds of 308. rounds. It's been very good. See it on optics planet here http://www.opticsplanet.com/leatherwood-hi-lux-optics-2-7x32mm-long-eye-relief-ler27x32.html

Stulanger

11-08-2015, 10:09 PM

Very true hunter, given the option, backing away from conflict is the best way to handle most such a situations. I would not purposefully engage a group of armed thugs in a firefight but I think that in such a situation having a gun would be better than not if for no other reason than as a deterrent should one of them have a mind to do me harm. And I'm not talking about hunting as in a recreational jaunt into the local deer woods as it relates to self defense I'm speaking more in terms of being out away from civilization for a few days or more. I think that I would consider self defense a valid concern in such a situation. I don't think that I would consider a lever gun with a few extra rounds and a .22 revolver on my hip a combat ready rig; I think that's just being prepared. Sorry maybe I was talking about two or three different types of scenarios in my post. Should have been more clear.

Stulanger

11-08-2015, 10:11 PM

Thanks Blood Groove. Will check it out.

hunter63

11-08-2015, 11:16 PM

Like I said....each to his own.....
So whatever set up you are comfortable with.... is fine by me....just thinking out loud.

Nothing wrong with "what if-ing" and thinking about it.

Stulanger

11-08-2015, 11:40 PM

Yes sir. We all have our preferences. Just didn't want to give the impression I was advocating Ramboism or vigilante fantasies. Have a good one. :)

Stulanger

11-19-2015, 12:27 AM

Well I'd like to be able to post some pics and get lots of congrats and pats on the back for my ingeniously unoriginal lever scout build but I've run into a bit of a problem. First an update: I've been waiting all week to install the XS lever rail and get the ghost ring sighted in but I never got the time to do the install so I went hunting on Monday with the 336 open sights. As expected it handles well in the brush and I even drew down on a small buck around first light but the shot would have been marginal so I passed. My hunting partner shot a nice 6 point that I rattled in. Guess he must have made a bad shot since we spent most of the afternoon tracking him through hill and holler briar and bramble only to loose the blood trail at the crest of a thorny Osage hedge. The 336 performed well in the tight quarters and only gave me trouble once when the lever got stuck in the pocket of my safety orange vest and the chamber opened up on me. Well tonight I finally got the time to install the rail. The first step was to remove the little cover screws where you mount the scope base on Marlins. I was able to get three of the four off without much trouble but the second one from the rear of the receiver wouldn't budge. I tried different bits, broke one and bent another trying to get the thing to move to no avail. I sprayed it with PB blaster and tried it a couple hours later and part of the dang screw head broke off. So I guess I'll have to take it in to a gunsmith to get that screw out before I can continue with the build. I hope I can get it taken care of before the scope I ordered comes in. More later .....

Stulanger

11-19-2015, 06:18 PM

Went to see the gunsmith today. I have to say I'm kinda glad I had this problem since I got to meet a pretty cool guy named Vance Simpson of AlphaTec Gunsmithing. He does gunsmith work for Buds, Dick's Sporting goods and a few other local places around here. When I walked into his shop he was working on some AK's and SKS's that had been seized and put back into service by some law enforcement agencies. He was very busy but he took the time to talk shop for a while and advised me to go ahead with the lever rail install without the fourth screw. He thinks it will be fine to just put a few drops of Loctite on the receiver between the sets of set screws so I guess I will do just that. I have to say that he was not at all what I expected for a gun wizard. He's just a good ol' boy very humble and down to earth. He runs his shop out of his home just a block over from where I lived in town after my folks divorced. Seems like a good guy to know. More later.....

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