View Full Version : Physics Question ??
kyratshooter
10-15-2015, 11:39 PM
I have been searching for the answer to this question for two days and can get nowhere. Seems you can find any information you desire on the internet unless it deals with math or physics.
At one time I knew this stuff, but it has been 45 years since I sat in a physics classroom.
If two identical projectiles traveling at the same velocity strike a point at the same instant is the energy of their impact multiplied or squared?
druid
10-16-2015, 02:21 AM
Are you are trying to describe Kinetic energy?
kinetic energy (E) of a massive body in motion can be calculated as half its mass (m) times the square of its velocity (v): E = mv2. Note that energy is a scalar quantity, i.e., it does not depend on direction, and it is always positive. When we double the mass, we double the energy; however, when we double the velocity, energy increases by a factor of four.
from
http://www.livescience.com/46278-kinetic-energy.html
I think, technically, the answer is: Increased.
Old GI
10-16-2015, 07:26 AM
Physics are good if used sparingly. I maintain pretty good regularity ....... oh, nevermind.
Batch
10-16-2015, 07:48 AM
If two identical projectiles traveling at the same velocity strike a point at the same instant is the energy of their impact multiplied or squared?
Since they are separate and really cannot strike the exact same point at the exact same time, it is a hypothetical. But, if you did make them combine and strike the same point at the same time. And since their velocity is the same, you have only doubled the mass.
Wildthang
10-16-2015, 08:44 AM
Multiplied X2
hunter63
10-16-2015, 11:11 AM
OMG....Just had a FLASHBACK...I was told that there would be no maff........(60's were a be-atch)....
Y'all let me know what you decide........
Need to go out a rake some leaves.....
jdbushcraft
10-16-2015, 12:25 PM
If 2 cars hit head on at 50 mph, they both experience the same energy as hitting a brick wall at 50 mph, if that helps.
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hunter63
10-16-2015, 01:21 PM
So I said into the phone.....
"Siri....If two identical projectiles traveling at the same velocity strike a point at the same instant is the energy of their impact multiplied or squared?"
Siri said, "How the heck would I know?...you think I'm a computer or something?"
(snort, giggle....Sorry couldn't resist....)
kyratshooter
10-16-2015, 01:56 PM
Hey, there is a practical side I'm dealing with...
Trying to work up the energy transferred by a buckshot load based on how many of what sized pellets strike the target.
It is the continuation of an open choke vs. tight choke discussion on a tacticool shotgun forum.
Yes I occasionally stray from the flock.
Oh, well, heck. If it's for a forum any answer will do. Lemme think about it....doubled.
kyratshooter
10-16-2015, 02:50 PM
Yep, after this discussion I am pretty much convinced that I can put down any numbers I want and no one will say anything for fear of having to do square route to prove me wrong!
I am closing in on realizing that the impacts are multiplied rather than squared. If they were squared/cubed/quadrupled... the impact of 5-6 buckshot would propel the target into low earth orbit.
I already brought down one space shuttle shooting a lodged ramrod out of a CVA Blazer rifle, I don't need another incident.
LowKey
10-16-2015, 05:53 PM
If two cars hit head on doing the same speed, the force is doubled. Not a brick wall. Trick physics question. Do the math.
crashdive123
10-16-2015, 08:32 PM
Krat - just tell them the force is multiplied by a factor of 3.87 and act like you mean it. Before long you will be reading all over the internet.
hunter63
10-16-2015, 10:11 PM
Krat - just tell them the force is multiplied by a factor of 3.87 and act like you mean it. Before long you will be reading all over the internet.
...........from this day forward......Bhohahaha
natertot
10-17-2015, 01:26 AM
Kyrat, in the instance of your initial post, the energy is simply doubled. If it were three projectiles, it would be tripled. Four would be quadrupled and so on. This is strictly on the projectile side of things. The force of impact is not as linear as the energy however. Think about a shotshell containing 1 oz of #8 vs a 1 oz slug. Both contain the same about of weight of the same metal, but the force of the slug is much greater because it is concentrated. Same thing with your OP. More projectiles will cause greater damage, but fewer projectiles with more mass will cause even greater damage yet.
Sorry, there is no clear cut answer as there are too many variables and I am not certain what the exact specifics are.
kyratshooter
10-17-2015, 02:44 AM
It was just one of the age old discussions about the craze for cylinder bore home defense shotguns.
The old thing where those that have never fired a shotgun think that they are going to hit/kill five people with one pellet each and the ones that have fired a shotgun and know that you want all the buckshot to hit one target will all the force available.
Just the normal forum stuff. But I wanted to give them the razzle dazzle with the math and shut them up, or at least scare them with long division and powers of 10.
Working up the numbers it takes two pellets of #00 buckshot to equal one 125gn 9mm/38spl impact, so unless you hit a vital organ or penetrate to the central nervous system with one of those pellets you better hope you get lots of them on target, because individually they do not have much in the way of stopping power.
There is a theory of multiple impact trauma that claims that when you are hit by numerous projectiles at the same instant the reaction of the body is different than if they are spread out over a time frame. It is one of the philosophies behind the use of the "double tap" in combat handgun training. There was a lot written about it back in the ancient days of the 1970s, but I can find none of the articles now.
2dumb2kwit
10-17-2015, 07:00 AM
Home defense? If you are trying to figure out what choke to use to stop a home invader.........how big are your rooms? Hahahaha.
(Y'all must have a much bigger house, than I have.) LOL
Kyrat, in the instance of your initial post, the energy is simply doubled.
See that? Post 11. And you ya'll thought I was just another pretty face.
kyratshooter
10-17-2015, 11:41 AM
Home defense? If you are trying to figure out what choke to use to stop a home invader.........how big are your rooms? Hahahaha.
(Y'all must have a much bigger house, than I have.) LOL
The house is not big, but down the hall, bedroom to back door, I have 60 feet/20 yards.
I have also been known to take the shotgun outside when something is in the chicken house or a known coyote type varmint is lurking about. I have 37 yards to the back fence and about 30 yards to each side of the yard.
Either of those situations needs some choke to keep things all in the same general area and effective.
While the "riot gun" with 18" barrel can be effective at the extreme close ranges of the indoor arena, not having a choke restricts the weapon to only extreme short range use and makes it useless for what the industry has worked so hard for the past 150 years to develop.
It has also created a widespread myth that the shotgun is no good for anything past 20 yards and useless for anything but indoor home defense. While that might be true for THEIR shotguns, it is not true for mine, or anyone else that has a modified or full choke or choke tube in their pea shooter.
hunter63
10-17-2015, 12:53 PM
Well the didn't name it "Buck Shot" for nothing....
SIL and friends use buck shot in 12 ga when running deer with dogs.....In Louisiana.
natertot
10-17-2015, 09:03 PM
Okay, now I understand a little more what the premise is.
My home defense shotty has a 21 inch barrel and a cyl bore. Not because it is "tacticool" or the norm, but because it works well for it's intended use. A 21 inch barrel is short enough so I can easily round corners and a cyl bore allows the effective use of buckshot or slugs within the longest stretch of my home which is about 20ish yards. However, the barrel does have rifle sights and I can hit out to 100yds with a slug. Buckshot beyond 30yds is not worth the ammo.
With buck shot, multiple pellets are required for a kill and even then it most likely will not be a quick and clean one. People flying across the room after taking buck shot to the torso or their heads completely liquefying are things of the movies. Buck shot does not penetrated extremely deep and loses its energy fast. The chance of it hitting the central nervous system are nill unless you shoot them in the back. Two 00buck pellets equaling one 9mm seems about right, but that 9mm will go deeper because the mass is concentrated. I would rather double tap with 9mm at 30yds than piss someone of with two pieces of buckshot. Then again, when crap happens and you need a gun, you have to make do with what you have. It is easy to speculate on a forum where we can pick the scenario and manipulate the details. In the real world, you are dealt the cards and you have to play them.
Quietsurvivaalist
10-18-2015, 06:20 AM
The multi hit theory is not based on physics of impact force but multiple decompressive openings in the thoracic cavity. Humans as well as most air breathers can survive 1 traumatic entry to the lung cavity with fairly consistent results. Where medical attention is given fairly quickly the survival rate is well over 90%.
However, when the chest cavity is opened to atmospheric pressure in multiple areas the immediate collapse of one or both lungs is un-survivable in most cases unless medical attention to seal the chest is given.
Impact force is not the issue here, rapid decompression and collapse of the respiratory system or heavy blood loss in the extremities is what kills
natertot
10-18-2015, 08:05 AM
Impact force is not the issue here, rapid decompression and collapse of the respiratory system or heavy blood loss in the extremities is what kills
blood loss in the extremities can kill, but is rather slow and only guarantees loss of limbs. Heavy blood loss of the organs is the end game. That is why the heart is a great target. every 1-2 minutes all the blood in your body will visit the lungs and roughly 40% will go to the head. Hit the heart and you have stopped oxygen/co2 exchange and the think tank. Within 20 seconds there will be no response of the person and after 2 minutes there will be no sign of life left.
Quietsurvivaalist
10-18-2015, 08:20 AM
3 steps of encouraging rapid incapacitation/death
1-Stop the breathing
2-start the bleeding
3- encourage shock ( using steps 1 and 2)
YMMV of course
Loss of O2 exchange will kill faster than anything but a CNS injury. And depending on the CNS injury, like the vegas nerve, will do exactly the same thing, shut off the muscles powering the lungs
Either way, loss of O2 function is the most immediate incapacitor. The heart can survive significant trauma and continue function more than 1 minute.
Ive seen a bunch of holes in people, collapsed lungs will shut an attacker down. In cases of heavy chemical zombies, the lung wounds are what they fall down from.
natertot
10-18-2015, 10:22 AM
Quite, you are correct. However, being able to hit the CNS is very difficult from the front (excluding head and neck shots) which is where self defense occurs and specifically hitting the vegas nerve would be simply "dumb luck". Heart and lungs are a much bigger area and don't require as much penetration to reach them.
Yes, the heart can receive a trauma and keep functioning for more than a minute. However, every time it pumps the blood will enter the thoracic cavities instead of the vessels. Like water and electricity, blood will flow the path of least resistance. What this means the heart will pump away, but the blood pressure will drop very quickly and the body will not receive the blood it needs and this includes the lungs. The body will shut down in 10-20 seconds despite the heart pumping for 1-4 minutes.
jdbushcraft
12-11-2015, 10:34 AM
If two cars hit head on doing the same speed, the force is doubled. Not a brick wall. Trick physics question. Do the math.
It has been done. The energy is doubled but it is then divided by 2 as it is dissipated by the mass of both cars.
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jdbushcraft
12-11-2015, 10:36 AM
I have been searching for the answer to this question for two days and can get nowhere. Seems you can find any information you desire on the internet unless it deals with math or physics.
At one time I knew this stuff, but it has been 45 years since I sat in a physics classroom.
If two identical projectiles traveling at the same velocity strike a point at the same instant is the energy of their impact multiplied or squared?
Traveling in the same or opposite directions?
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hunter63
12-11-2015, 11:49 AM
I was told there would be no math.
Traveling in the same or opposite directions?
Yes.......
kyratshooter
12-11-2015, 02:36 PM
Traveling in the same or opposite directions?
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How the he!! could two objects strike the same point if they were traveling in opposite directions?
This is physics, not politics!
hunter63
12-11-2015, 02:45 PM
On from the right and one from the left....if they were both the same direction.....they would never meet.......LOL
Or....Freaking magic...........
jdbushcraft
12-11-2015, 04:06 PM
How the he!! could two objects strike the same point if they were traveling in opposite directions?
This is physics, not politics!
The point they struck would be each other, ie a collision.
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jdbushcraft
12-11-2015, 04:09 PM
Two bullets simultaneously striking a target at the same point from the same direction would double the energy. It would be the same as a single bullet of twice the mass hitting the target.
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jdbushcraft
12-11-2015, 04:12 PM
I was told there would be no math.
They said there would be no "meth". ;-)
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03-31-2026, 09:53 PM
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