shotgun facts and fancies

[randyt]

We've talked about shotguns in the past but I have more questions. Sadly even though my people were shotgunners by the time I came along a .22 lr was handed to me. That was all good and well until now.

Is there a chart on what shot size is recommended for a specific purpose? I often wonder if there is a difference to recommended shot size and field experience.

For some reason I thought about deer hunting with slugs this year using my granddad's 97 winchester. My concern is it is a full choke and I wondered if slugs are a good idea for that choke on that old gun. It is a 12 gauge.

shot for water fowl, if I understand correctly it must be no lead. any thoughts?

reloading shot shells. are shot cups superior to wads?

Is there a reference available for these subjects?

we may have talked about all this in the past.

[hunter63]

I sure there is magic information out there...but can tell you what I use.
Lead:
Rabbits, squirrels, grouse, varmints ...#6 or #4....Mod choke
Don't shoot doves but friends shoot 7-12's or 8"....same as skeet
Turkeys: 4X6 Duplex lead shot...or #4 lead. extra full

Water fowl: Steel or plated steel:
Ducks, close #4 or #2......Mod choke
Longer range (passing shots) #2 or BB. Mod choke
Geese "T" shot...mod or full choke.

Slugs and sabots for deer Mod choke or cylinder bore.
Have shot a lot of 12 ga lead slugs thru full choke, and didn't die....but have enough options I don't need to.....or have rifled shotgun barrels.

Now for the latest Bushcraft, tacticool, and long haired biker meth head zombie killer....saw off a perfectly good shot gun barrel to 18-1/2 inches, cut off the stock or add pistol grip....shoot 00 buck and be-yach about not hitting anything.

.....AND be sure to "rack the slide on your pump" to scare all the animals and bad guys into surrendering .....so you don't actually have to shoot it then be-yach about it hurting you.

That's all I know.

BTW, Remington Nitro Steel are steel....and Remington Nitro mag (lead) look the same, Green plastic 3".... but if the wardens magnet doesn't stick to it ...(steel)..... they will cost you $100 bucks apiece if mixed in the shell bag.

[randyt]

thanks for the info. the plated steel shot, can that be shot in older shotguns with out harming the bore? Shooting slugs in a full choke, I'm really not concerned about blowing the gun up but I don't want to affect the choke.

[hunter63]

If your older gun is steel...not a Damascus twist, steel should be able to be shot....although I would opt for the plated.

Would worry more about steel messing up an older fixed barrel choke than shooting lead slugs....thru a full choke.

Steel doesn't seem like full chokes, ...as it doesn't "squish down like lead"....or so I have been told.....and kinda believe it simply by pattern shooting different loads.

The only way I would even considering loading "home ready rolls"...is if I was gonna shoot trap 2 nights a week.
Too many variables in shot cups, hulls, different shot sizes....can't buy 25 of each....stuff come in bags so have to buy all the sized and combinations that you shoot.
Powder and primers ...not so bad as a lot of shotgun powders cross reference to pistol loads......209 primers are used in in-line ML's.

BTW all shot guns are 22", 24" 28" form factory...and a 36" NEF Long Ton 10 ga....for smartazzes.

[kyratshooter]

What Hunter said.

http://accessiblehunter.blogspot.com/2015/03/picking-correct-shot-size-for-your.html

When reloading shotgun shells it is best to hire a therapist in advance. The number of powders, shot cups, hull types, shot sizes and primer types will drive you crazy.

One powder charge and shot weight will require a specific cup so the crimp will properly fold and close. 1/8oz less shot and the shell may of may not function through the gun due to a sloppy crimp...it goes on forever.

And if your gun does not pattern well with one load it will cost you a plastic bag full of another size shot cup to change the load.

I have a Mec reloading press that is only used for buckshot and slugs. It's easier and cheaper to buy commercial shells for general hunting.

I have found that there are so many variables between gun and shell that only the shooter can determine the best combination for himself. I have tested the same choke tube in two different guns and gotten wildly different patterns.

Most of the internet experts don't seem to know that You have to actually shoot the gun to see what works.

And yes, there seems to be something about a sawed down mutilated shotgun that mystifies people. I have never found anything that an open choke can do that a modified choke can not do better, even if shooting slugs.

In a survival situation I probably will see a lot more small game than large and I want some choke to control that food getting load. Those trees are taller than you think they are. That squirrel in that 60 foot tree is 30 yards away, maybe 40 when you figure the angle, and you need a choke.

I do not think I have a single open choke gun left in the house. I have jug choked them or installed a polychoke on every short barreled pea shooter I owned.

And be careful with that old '97. I have found a few chambered for 2 1/2" shells and some very thin barrels.

I have a soft spot in my heart for the '97. One of my Grandfathers walked through the Great Depression feeding his family with a '97 for a good part of it.

[randyt]

thanks for the info fellas. I'll check the 97, pretty sure it a 2 3/4 chamber. I wondered about the reloading in amongst the stuff there are several boxes of wads and several bags if shot cups. There are some full brass 12 ga, 16 ga and .410 shells. The only 16 ga I have is a noble that came to me in a box, one of these days I'll put it back together. Sounds like it's time to start experimenting with some loads.

[hunter63]

There is a vast difference between loading for an old friend and loading to save money.

If I had the hulls, wads.....I would buy a bag of #6 shot, load up you hull with different combinations...use it for rabbits, grouse and have fun.
Still have 3/4 of a bag of #6 lead the I use for the ML's...

Have a MEC loader as well and a old Lee Load all.....don't use them....use the Lee Loader Bop a Mole of "Homemade ready rolls" with my poured slugs.
Loads come from Lee or Hodson manual.

[kyratshooter]

The shot size thing is one of those "rules" that one can bend a lot.

After you have hunted as long as many of us have you see the rules successfully broken on a regular basis.

If you do not have dove or quail in your area you do not really need to keep 7 1/2 or 8 shot.

6 is great as an all around load for most small game, but I shoot rabbits and squirrels with cheap Walmart 7 1/2 all the time and it works fine.

Same with "turkey loads". The specialty loads are great but I have seen a lot of turkey taken with #6.

I saw a deer taken with #6 once. A 85 year old man killed that sucker dead as a hammer at 10 yards with a load of #6 through a full choke single shot. I dressed the deer out for him, it was officially dead and it was killed with #6 shot!

Reloading home poured slugs is as much fun as reloading rifle cartridges, and saves more money! You don't even need the spotting scope to zero at 50 yards.

And, unless you have a good supply of powder that is appropriate, right now is not a good time to start reloading shotgun fodder. Powder is scarce.

But knowing Randy he has 20, 8 pound kegs of green dot left over from before the Great Depression!

[randyt]

LOL, I don't have 20 8 pound kegs however I'm not hurting for powder either. I have some punkin ball molds in 12 ga and 16 ga, along with a brenneke type mold in 12 ga. There is a bunch of shot on the shelf, some of it still in canvas bags. To be honest I have done very little reloading of shotgun, only once. My father showed me on the kitchen table how to reload shells with home made tools. I also have a mec and a few lee bop a mole tools. A while ago a fella gave me a lee loader, dipper set, bunch of primers and some shot. Some how I became the guy folks give their old gun junk to, I really can't say no.

[crashdive123]

Randy's basement.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchandDriveHome056.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchandDriveHome056.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark044.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark044.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark030.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark030.jpg.html)

[hunter63]

LOL, I don't have 20 8 pound kegs however I'm not hurting for powder either. I have some punkin ball molds in 12 ga and 16 ga, along with a brenneke type mold in 12 ga. There is a bunch of shot on the shelf, some of it still in canvas bags. To be honest I have done very little reloading of shotgun, only once. My father showed me on the kitchen table how to reload shells with home made tools. I also have a mec and a few lee bop a mole tools. A while ago a fella gave me a lee loader, dipper set, bunch of primers and some shot. Some how I became the guy folks give their old gun junk to, I really can't say no.

LOL...I know the feeling.....I have had people say.

I know you shoot...... Can you use this 5 gal bucket of 12 ga shells?....renter had them in the shed...got wet and boxes fell apart, si I put them in the bucket.
or
Detective friend.....stops over with a shopping bag of .410's...They got turned in...You want them?

[natertot]

If you are wanting to reload, I recommend getting Lyman's 5th Edition of shotshell reloading. As kyrat mentioned earlier, the slightest change in one thing can change how you reload the entire shell. Lyman's has great info in hull identification and a great amount of "recipes". It can be had for about $20 and is well worth it with so much info.

For general, all around small game, #6 is the way to go although I have used #4 on occasion. #7 1/2 - #9 can be used, but I have learned that small game is well within reach at 75yds with #6 and I find smaller shot to wound more than kill.

Slugs in a full bore, I don't do it. I have the slug barrel so do see the point in not using it. If you have changeable chokes, go with imp cyl or larger bore.

[Wildthang]

Just for bulk shot shell stash, I keep #4's for 2 legged creatures, and #6 for the rest!

[randyt]

thanks for the info fellas.... For funsies I measured some of my shotguns, the 97 winchester has a 30 inch barrel, a stevens 520 has a 31 inch barrel, ithaca flues has 30 inch barrels and my iver johnon has 30 inch barrels. Those are the only ones I measured, not sure on the other ones.

In regards to double barrels, any thoughts on a side by side versus a over and under? any thoughts on number five shot?

there is a barrel and slide assembly for the 97 winchester. It is a cylinder bore, maybe 24 inches long. I was wondering about putting a poly choke on it. any thoughts?

[gcckoka]

10899

my rem 870 with eotech 512

[crashdive123]

There is just something "sexy" about a side by side coach gun.

[kyratshooter]

thanks for the info fellas.... For funsies I measured some of my shotguns, the 97 winchester has a 30 inch barrel, a stevens 520 has a 31 inch barrel, ithaca flues has 30 inch barrels and my iver johnon has 30 inch barrels. Those are the only ones I measured, not sure on the other ones.

In regards to double barrels, any thoughts on a side by side versus a over and under? any thoughts on number five shot?

there is a barrel and slide assembly for the 97 winchester. It is a cylinder bore, maybe 24 inches long. I was wondering about putting a poly choke on it. any thoughts?

If I were completely honest with you I would have to admit that the shotgun I carry in the field most is a 20ga O/U.

I have pumps, singles and doubles but I prefer the handling characteristics of the O/U for hunting birds and rabbits. SxS guns confuse me and I want to look down the individual tubes. Don't know why, just do.

As for the polychoke on the 1897 ???

I would say that if the barrel is obviously cut down from the original 30" tube then mounting a polycoke would be acceptable. If the barrel is a 24" model from the factory you do not need to touch it. The 1897 was barrel length specific. 16ga got 26" barrels, 12ga got 30" barrels. (except for the military and police riot guns that were 18"&20") If you have 24" barrels from the factory with open choke that is a rarity.

The polychoke and installation is about $175 if my memory serves me. It is best to ship it to Polychoke and let them do the installation. I have done them and that is a bear of a process.

#5 shot ??

For me #5 and #6 are interchangeable, much like 7 1/2 & 8. Shot size increments are very small (.01") and you have to skip two or three sizes to see much difference.

http://www.supertrav.com/pelletcount1.html

[randyt]

Well, shoot you made me go measure that barrel. It's 26 inches long and on the left side it is stamped cyl. I have no way of knowing if it is factory or not. It is 12 gauge. My iver johnson has two beads, one at the muzzle and one about half way down the barrel it shoulders up and the beads line up naturally for me.

Been thinking about a 20 ga O/U for my walk abouts.

[randyt]

how did Crash get photos of my basement? shenanigans I say

[natertot]

Just for bulk shot shell stash, I keep #4's for 2 legged creatures, and #6 for the rest!

For two legged creatures, is that #4 shot or #4 Buckshot? I wouldn't do #4 shot as that would more wound and infuriate. I do store #4 buck for defense, along with 00buck and slugs.

@ RandyT: Be careful of the Ithica Flues, depending on the year it was made it may have Damascus barrels which are not suitable for modern shotshell ammo. If they are Damascus barrels then you can load your own shells that are suitable for it.

For field use, I us a pump. For no other reason it is what I grew up with, used in the military, police and security realms, and have just continued to use. A pump is what I am most comfy with. I typically use a .410 or 20ga on small game, but do use a 12ga for birds.

[hunter63]

Have some #5 shot in 16 ga....for some reason my Uncle preferred it over #4 and #6 in his Ithaca Model 37.
I suspect that he used #5 as a "in between" load...so he didn't have to buy both #4's and #6's....Was kinda fugal....LOL

He and MF argued over the Winchester Model 12 vs the Ithaca 37....for as long as I can remember.

When the both passed, I ended up with both ....The Win Model 12 has a poly choke.....
I passed them on to my nephews....one each, but the younger one, my hunting partner, bought the Mod 37....so he has both.

Being a old softy on old guns, I would not put a poly choke on an old gun.....Like putting low profile wheels and tires on a Model A Ford.

[kyratshooter]

Well, shoot you made me go measure that barrel. It's 26 inches long and on the left side it is stamped cyl. I have no way of knowing if it is factory or not. It is 12 gauge. My iver johnson has two beads, one at the muzzle and one about half way down the barrel it shoulders up and the beads line up naturally for me.

Been thinking about a 20 ga O/U for my walk abouts.

If that barrel appears to be stamped by the factory I would do nothing to it. A 26" cylinder bore 1897 would have been a special order from the factory. Probably for some southern quail hunter.

They are scarce, especially since there have been none made since 1957 and the majority of them were made before 1940. They were favorites in the cut cornstalk pheasant fields of the mid-west, but not as popular in the south or east.

I am always amazed that when you do find one it is generally in working order. They were tough guns.

I have a soft spot for the '97, it being one of my Grandfather's favorite guns.

[randyt]

sounds like I should leave it as is, the poly choke was a passing thought.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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