training a dog for survival

[toprock]

I have a lab. every time i take him in the woods with me he does all the work. he spot animals, he knows the way home, he keeps me positive with a few wags of his tail and he will protect me to the death.

[nell67]

heres a couple of threads on dogs :

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=179&highlight=dogs

and:
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1464&highlight=dogs

and:
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1114&highlight=dogs

[DOGMAN]

I let my dogs and horses train me for survival. They seem to have a pretty good grasp on the basics.

[beerrunner13]

After going back and reading them those threads really don't address traing a dog for survival. Let me ask you this toprock what kind of traing are you refering too, realizing dog breeds are like guns and knives each one for a diffrent purpose. Are you looking for qa tracker, secuity dog retriver? And what kind of traing are you intrested in doing. I have trained dogs and worked them in the militart and civilian life and am by no means an expert but have worked with animals most of my life and have a little experince and would help ya if I could. If you would be more specific it would help.

[Ole WV Coot]

I have an "attack" beagle. Mean to the bone. Trained to tree squirrels and his momma taught him to run rabbits. Good watchdog, growls if he's close to me don't bark and will ride on the tank of an ATV. Great nose for game at 3yrs old and 35lbs. He has spotted turkey & deer for me without barking. He hates cats, but everyone has something, I don't like them either. We share the joy of chasing them.

[klkak]

This is Bandit. He is 13. He will retrieve grouse, tree and retrieve squirls. He guards the house and protects the grandkids when they are out in the yard. He chases moose and bear out of the yard. He guards the meat pole when we are out hunting. When he was younger he pulled the sled when I went ice fishing. He is one of the best dogs I've ever owned. He was a cull from a friend who raises sled dogs and races them. Now he has problems in his lower back. I still take him out on easy hunts and he rides around with me in the truck. If I were in a survival situation he would be a nice companion.:)

[beerrunner13]

Nice looking dog klkak I still can't figure out how to post pics so I can't show mine. It's no fun being a techno idiot

[BlackDog]

Karen Pryor's Clicker Training/Positive Reinforcement training philosophy is what I use. If you want to train your dog to problem solve and think on his own, "Don't Shoot the Dog" is the only training book I use as reference. "Survival" is a broad category of training. Like Beerrunner asked, are you most concerned with the canine leading you back home, or is it finding you food, or is it gathering wood for a fire or shelter. There are so many exercises you could work that could be very useful to have on command if helpless in the woods with one's canine. Interesting stuff.

[crashdive123]

This is Bandit. He is 13. He will retrieve grouse, tree and retrieve squirls. He guards the house and protects the grandkids when they are out in the yard. He chases moose and bear out of the yard. He guards the meat pole when we are out hunting. When he was younger he pulled the sled when I went ice fishing. He is one of the best dogs I've ever owned. He was a cull from a friend who raises sled dogs and races them. Now he has problems in his lower back. I still take him out on easy hunts and he rides around with me in the truck. If I were in a survival situation he would be a nice companion.:)

And he must be a good tracker. Just look how he keyed in on the tracks in the picture.

[klkak]

He is a fine dog.

[Rick]

Beerunner - Try this:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1318

[remy]

This is Bandit. He is 13. He will retrieve grouse, tree and retrieve squirls. He guards the house and protects the grandkids when they are out in the yard. He chases moose and bear out of the yard. He guards the meat pole when we are out hunting. When he was younger he pulled the sled when I went ice fishing. He is one of the best dogs I've ever owned. He was a cull from a friend who raises sled dogs and races them. Now he has problems in his lower back. I still take him out on easy hunts and he rides around with me in the truck. If I were in a survival situation he would be a nice companion.:)

So you haven't shot that one yet ?

[Rick]

tacky, tacky, tacky. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/innocent/innocent0009.gif (http://www.ranksurge.com)

[Aurelius95]

Great book about a man and his precocious dog. I have heard that Owen Wilson and Jennifer Anniston are making it into a movie - not sure which one is going to play the dog (j/k).

My black lab mix is 11 and she'll chase down anything that looks like a ball. I wish I could have hunted with her when she was younger, because I think she would have enjoyed retrieving water fowl and other birds.

[Rick]

If anyone figures out how to train a dog not to bark they can have a go at my neighbor's dog. I'm thinking about feeding him a sponge covered with bacon grease. Oh, not the dog, my neighbor.

[beerrunner13]

Rick I could do it for you but I think it is the owner that needs to be trained. I never understood why people have dogs and then put them out and pay no mind to them, I have on across the street whos dog barks non stop and she won't even go out to see what is going on. Mione bark if someone is near the house but that is what I have him for.

[Omid]

dogs are the best companions you can ever have

[Rick]

The dog is on a rope outside and guess what. It barks all the time. I would too if I was tied outside. I walked over last week and told them they would have to do something with the dog.

But it's a dog.

I can see that. Either do something about him barking or I'll call animal control.

SLAM!! (I love when people do that)

Two nights later......Animal Control? Yep, got a barker. He's been barkin' for half an hour.

10 minutes later. Knock, knock, knock. Sir, you need to do something with your dog or we'll have to site you for a violation.

No more barking dog. Ta da!

[DOGMAN]

If anyone figures out how to train a dog not to bark they can have a go at my neighbor's dog. I'm thinking about feeding him a sponge covered with bacon grease. Oh, not the dog, my neighbor.

Rick, try this. Get a silent dog command whistle. When the dog starts barking- start a continuous blow on the whistle- nice and steady blowing. When the dog stops barking- instantly stop blowing. As soon as he starts barking again- start blowing again. And repeat- stopping again as soon as he does.

It won't take him long to figure it out. The high frequency pitch irritates them and it doesn't take long for them to figure out that if they bark they hear that darned annoying noise. I use this technique very successfully on my 26 dogs. If this doesn't work write me back, and I can tell you about my bull whip technique.

[Ridge Wolf]

Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?

[DOGMAN]

Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?


For me, its always a work in progress. I currently have 26 dogs, but I am always bringing in new dogs to my kennel to try out for my team- or to replace retired dogs etc...

The majority of the time my kennel is quite. My dogs were trained rather quickly (a couple of hours of this repetitive whenever they bark) but, I still have had a few others that didn't conform so easily. For them I use the bull whip technique.

The bullwhip technique is I walk out of the house/shop cracking the whip and either blowing the whistle, or saying "NO" in a growling voice...I walk swiftly toward the barker. I crack the whip right over there head, until they stop barking or retreat into their doghouse. I then say "NO" a couple of more times and crack the whip a couple of more times. If after a few minutes they decide to vocalize again, I go out and repeat, but I make sure the whip lightly stings them on a rear hip. After that- they seem to catch the drift.

All I have to do now is blow the whistle or open the door and crack the whip, and they get the message and get quite.

[Ridge Wolf]

Ok.. but I can't agree with your bull whip method... Thanks..

[DOGMAN]

Ok.. but I can't agree with you bull whip method... Thanks..

No worries, You don't have to agree. However, let me stress- I rarely have to pop a dog with the whip. It is used as a signal device. I will lightly sting a dog- once. If they are an incessant barker. It gets there attention- it holds there attention. It is much less painful to them than a shock collar. I have tested both an ecollar and a whip on myself- and the whip is a more gental solution. I do not beat my dogs- I love my dogs, but when you have as many of them as I do- you have to be the Alpha. Dogs are actually much harder on one another- than I am on them. I do not lose my cool, or take this kind of training lightly- it is a serious matter. If you have a better solution- I am all ears. Repectfully- Jason

[DOGMAN]

I would like to stress that I am a postive reward style of dog trainer. Incessant barking and dogs fighting are the only times I do any negative association training. Also, I would like to say that I do not speak for all mushers- so, if you have a negative opinion about my methods thats one thing...but, please don't think all mushers do it. I don't care if you have negative feelings about me, I just don't want to stigmitize the sport of mushing.

[Aurelius95]

I've read that some dog breeds, like beagles, for instance, can't help but to bark. It's in their genes. Montana, have you had success in getting all breeds of dogs to stop barking?

I've also heard that's why beagles make good rabbit and racoon dogs- they bark while they track them. Unlike a retriever that needs to be quiet in the blind until they go get the duck in the water.

I have no experience hunting, so this is just what I've read. I would appreciate any insight. Thanks!

[trax]

I've cleverly trained my dog to ignore any commands I give him and do what the h*** he wants, but just greet me at home with all the lovin' I can stand. (DAD!! You've been gone for at least 3 minutes! I missed you!!)

[remy]

Can you seriously say you are a "positive reward dog trainer", whatever that means since i do not consider rewarding a "positive" process, and in the same breath talk about whips ?
Can you in all seriousness, talk about "shaping" dogs the way you do, and sign each posts with "in wildness is the preservation of the world" ?

Of course there are other ways...and those ways start with the curving of your own limitations...with the awakening of Intelligence.


Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?
Ridge wolf

The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

[DOGMAN]

I've read that some dog breeds, like beagles, for instance, can't help but to bark. It's in their genes. Montana, have you had success in getting all breeds of dogs to stop barking?

I've also heard that's why beagles make good rabbit and racoon dogs- they bark while they track them. Unlike a retriever that needs to be quiet in the blind until they go get the duck in the water.

I have no experience hunting, so this is just what I've read. I would appreciate any insight. Thanks!

I've never worked with Beagles...in reality...I have worked with very few breeds. Alaskan Huskies, German Shorthaired Pointers, Siberian Huskies, Malamutes, Pointers all respond well to this technique. However, these are running dogs, and in general quiter breeds and not territorial. They were never bred to be barkers.

Dogs that were bred to be territorial and guards, or dogs like hounds that sound off would be tough to train to be quiet. I wouldn't even try- I'd just get a different breed if I wanted a quiet dog. When a dog has been selectively bred for hundreds of generations for a certain behaviour (barking for instance) I wouldn't try "Training" it out of them- because it will be frustrating for the trainer, and for the dog. Training a dog bred to be a guard dog, to not bark, is like training a husky not to pull, or a pointer to not sniff.

Dogs are as specialized as tools. Trying to get them to do something, that is counterintuitive to their breeding is like trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver. It can be done- but, it ain't going to be easy.

[trax]

Ridge wolf
The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

Then what did the ham have before they "cured" it?

[klkak]

Montana, I am familiar with sled dogs and the challenges of training and handling them. I don't see a problem with your method. Most people have no idea what is like to control more than 1 or 2 dogs let alone a dog yard with dozens of dogs. I know you have to be Alpha. That means always having a dominate energy and not letting one dog get away with insubordination. Dogs understand "Energy" and "Physical contact". I've seen what happens in a dog yard when the musher loses control.

[wildWoman]

Montana, I am familiar with sled dogs and the challenges of training and handling them. I don't see a problem with your method. Most people have no idea what is like to control more than 1 or 2 dogs let alone a dog yard with dozens of dogs. I know you have to be Alpha. That means always having a dominate energy and not letting one dog get away with insubordination. Dogs understand "Energy" and "Physical contact". I've seen what happens in a dog yard when the musher loses control.

How true. We have 4 dogs, and keeping tabs on them when out for walks in the bush is a whole different ball game than just going with one or two. More than 2 dogs seem to feel more like a pack and will be very tempted to go do their thing and ignore your commands if there's something their interested in. We have to be constantly alert and be ready to call them to heel as soon as the tails, ears and noses go up.
One of my dogs is a passionate moose chaser, which really ticks me off, and the only way I've been able to get him to come when he sees a moose taking off is by getting an electric collar for him (an expensive good one). Getting zapped jerks him out of hunting mode back into the real world and he comes immediately. I'd recommend that to anyone who has a dog with similar obnoxious passions. Keeps the dog out of trouble, you out of grey hair, and whatever he wants to chase in peace.

[Aurelius95]

Dogs that were bred to be territorial and guards, or dogs like hounds that sound off would be tough to train to be quiet. I wouldn't even try- I'd just get a different breed if I wanted a quiet dog. When a dog has been selectively bred for hundreds of generations for a certain behaviour (barking for instance) I wouldn't try "Training" it out of them- because it will be frustrating for the trainer, and for the dog. Training a dog bred to be a guard dog, to not bark, is like training a husky not to pull, or a pointer to not sniff.

Dogs are as specialized as tools. Trying to get them to do something, that is counterintuitive to their breeding is like trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver. It can be done- but, it ain't going to be easy.


That's what I imagined the response to be, so thanks for confirming it. I just was cringing to hear a story of someone beating a dog to stop barking when that's the way the dog is wired.

[DOGMAN]

Can you seriously say you are a "positive reward dog trainer", whatever that means since i do not consider rewarding a "positive" process, and in the same breath talk about whips ?
Can you in all seriousness, talk about "shaping" dogs the way you do, and sign each posts with "in wildness is the preservation of the world" ?

Of course there are other ways...and those ways start with the curving of your own limitations...with the awakening of Intelligence.


Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?
Ridge wolf

The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?


Remy, I appreciate your critique and will do my best to explain my stance. First, I do believe "In wildness is the preservation of the world" However, Canis familiaris is not a wild animal. Much like ourselves, it is a domesticated pack animal- that is why we work so well together. Dogs and humans realized a long time ago that if we conform we survive- there is safety in numbers.

So, to be a part of a pack- there has to be rules. Even in the "wild" wolves have rules, and the young ones are brought up to conform to the rules of the pack. That is what my style of training is all about- letting dogs do whatever they want, while getting them to conform to the rules of the pack. I am the alpha and I take that position seriously. I strive to provide quality food, water, shelter, stimulation and structure to my pack so they lead contented lives and trust me and don’t feel the need to disrupt the hierarchy.

I am a positive rewards style dog trainer. 98% of my techniques are “positive” the dogs are just doing what comes natural to them. However the other 2% is training that enforces the rules of the pack. It is not cruel, wolves do the same thing- and in fact they can be much harsher in enforcing the rules of the pack than I am.

I look into my dogs eyes everyday, I read my dogs body postures everyday – I understand my dogs, because I strive to learn the lessons they have to teach me. So Remy, feel free to critique my words all you want. But, before you harsh on me too much, I’d say come to Montana and stay with me at my cabin, and see how my dogs and I interact first hand- Then pass judgment on my intelligence.

[beerrunner13]

Excellent points made WW I have trained Gaurd, hunting and a few SAR dogs and I am a firm believer in the shock collars. They are great aids for field dogs. Musher I aslo agree with you and you method, you are 100% corerect on enforceing the Alpha dog if you can't contol you dogs they are a danger to themselves and everyone around them, dispite what some people would have you think and that they can talk them to death.

I have a grayhound/lab mix that was very aggressive when I got him and he was a serious biter it took some rough handeling to teach him he was going to listen and that biteing was not OK he also is great in the woods and will retrive anything , but true to his sight hound half he would break and try to run down his prey, the only way I could stop this was with the electronic collar. He is a joy to take to the woods, is very protective of the horses and other stock and will protect the house and truck as well as my wife to the death, when I got him many people said he was a lost cause and should be put down[he was a rescue]. 6 years later he is a valued member of the family, so keep up with what works for you and pay no mind to the trolls who think animals are people and should be treated as such, they are pack animals and must be treated as such.

[remy]

I understand your stance very well...and i appreciate your position, and your further explanations/rationalizations/justifications.
I still disagree...not necessarily about your approach specifically...but more about the end result, the direction if you will.

To me, your dance resembles yet an other dysfunction.
The word Intelligence was not meant personally, hence its italic form. Intelligence is not the outcome of argument, belief, opinion or reason. Intelligence comes about when the brain discovers its fallibility.

I cannot help but notice a certain dichotomy residing within your posts...you talk about being an "Alpha", and at the same time you surrender to the laws of domestication. I understand you have a place within the dogs you work with, and they understand their place within this work, but where i loose you, where i loose your invitation, is in the emanation of your humanity.

A good friend of mine is a horse whisperer. A certain Intelligence communicates back and forth between "him" and the "horse", and this intelligence is not of ridding. This Intelligence is not of games and positions, whips and ropes...disenchanted words like "alpha" and wild...only a man could find hospice in those words...in those concepts, for if you were a true Alpha, in the wild sense of the meaning, you would have to be of a different Intelligence, and therefor of a different form altogether.

I too have had many dogs...at one time 11 to be exact. Training dogs to do a certain work is a valid quest, a valid relationship in itself...but let us not confuse this relationship with one that would make us Alphas, and who knows what other term propelling us once more towards a position romanticized by the distant memories of our reptilian brain.
So allow me, to once more pass judgement...not on your intelligence, but on the lack thereof, for in you, i see myself.
Allow me, to be wild.

In the world is the preservation of wildness.

[Ridge Wolf]

Can you seriously say you are a "positive reward dog trainer", whatever that means since i do not consider rewarding a "positive" process, and in the same breath talk about whips ?
Can you in all seriousness, talk about "shaping" dogs the way you do, and sign each posts with "in wildness is the preservation of the world" ?

Of course there are other ways...and those ways start with the curving of your own limitations...with the awakening of Intelligence.


Montana... how long did it take to cure the dog from barking using your technique?
Ridge wolf

The word "cure" would imply a disease...would imply we, humans, should and could "save" the dogs from...being dogs ?

And my response to montana's post was not addressed to you now, was it? Montana knew what I meant with that word... I don't understand why you don't. Your use of my statement and followed by your explanation of it sounds a little off the wall and pointless remy..

[beerrunner13]

And my response to montana's post was not addressed to you now, was it? Montana knew what I meant with that word... I don't understand why you don't. Your use of my statement and followed by your explanation of it sounds a little off the wall and pointless remy..

Don't most of them? It is scarey how someone can type so much and say so little and never have a point or an answer.

[DOGMAN]

I understand your stance very well...and i appreciate your position, and your further explanations/rationalizations/justifications.
I still disagree...not necessarily about your approach specifically...but more about the end result, the direction if you will.

To me, your dance resembles yet an other dysfunction.
The word Intelligence was not meant personally, hence its italic form. Intelligence is not the outcome of argument, belief, opinion or reason. Intelligence comes about when the brain discovers its fallibility.

I cannot help but notice a certain dichotomy residing within your posts...you talk about being an "Alpha", and at the same time you surrender to the laws of domestication. I understand you have a place within the dogs you work with, and they understand their place within this work, but where i loose you, where i loose your invitation, is in the emanation of your humanity.

A good friend of mine is a horse whisperer. A certain Intelligence communicates back and forth between "him" and the "horse", and this intelligence is not of ridding. This Intelligence is not of games and positions, whips and ropes...disenchanted words like "alpha" and wild...only a man could find hospice in those words...in those concepts, for if you were a true Alpha, in the wild sense of the meaning, you would have to be of a different Intelligence, and therefor of a different form altogether.

I too have had many dogs...at one time 11 to be exact. Training dogs to do a certain work is a valid quest, a valid relationship in itself...but let us not confuse this relationship with one that would make us Alphas, and who knows what other term propelling us once more towards a position romanticized by the distant memories of our reptilian brain.
So allow me, to once more pass judgement...not on your intelligence, but on the lack thereof, for in you, i see myself.
Allow me, to be wild.

In the world is the preservation of wildness.

Remy, tell me about your 11 dogs. What was the set-up...how did they all interact, what was your method of kennel/pack management. Help me overcome my shortcomings...I am willing to learn- but, please write in simple terms, as I am a simple person and have trouble following your eloquence.

[beerrunner13]

Remy, tell me about your 11 dogs. What was the set-up...how did they all interact, what was your method of kennel/pack management. Help me overcome my shortcomings...I am willing to learn- but, please write in simple terms, as I am a simple person and have trouble following your eloquence.


:eek: Montana don't hold your breath on that. I have never seen him answer a question period he will type a page or two for ya but all you will get is double talk and a run around, he judges but has done nothing by which he can be judged except use a lot of big words and and talk ya to deth you will learn in time. He is best ignored.

[grundle]

I understand your stance very well...and i appreciate your position, and your further explanations/rationalizations/justifications.
I still disagree...not necessarily about your approach specifically...but more about the end result, the direction if you will.

To me, your dance resembles yet an other dysfunction.
The word Intelligence was not meant personally, hence its italic form. Intelligence is not the outcome of argument, belief, opinion or reason. Intelligence comes about when the brain discovers its fallibility.

I cannot help but notice a certain dichotomy residing within your posts...you talk about being an "Alpha", and at the same time you surrender to the laws of domestication. I understand you have a place within the dogs you work with, and they understand their place within this work, but where i loose you, where i loose your invitation, is in the emanation of your humanity.

A good friend of mine is a horse whisperer. A certain Intelligence communicates back and forth between "him" and the "horse", and this intelligence is not of ridding. This Intelligence is not of games and positions, whips and ropes...disenchanted words like "alpha" and wild...only a man could find hospice in those words...in those concepts, for if you were a true Alpha, in the wild sense of the meaning, you would have to be of a different Intelligence, and therefor of a different form altogether.

I too have had many dogs...at one time 11 to be exact. Training dogs to do a certain work is a valid quest, a valid relationship in itself...but let us not confuse this relationship with one that would make us Alphas, and who knows what other term propelling us once more towards a position romanticized by the distant memories of our reptilian brain.
So allow me, to once more pass judgement...not on your intelligence, but on the lack thereof, for in you, i see myself.
Allow me, to be wild.

In the world is the preservation of wildness.

I did not see any "rationalizations" or "justifications" from musher. He actually layed out exactly what he does without rationalizing anything. A rationalizing or justifying person would not say "I really dont' care what you think of me." Which by the way he said.

I suggest you stop talking around this issue, get off your "moral high horse" (pun intended) and stop pretending you are somehow better than him because you are some sort of hippyfied horse whisperer. You ought to try to Bear Whisper for a while too, and allow the bears to be wild as you are. You will learn (as they eat your face off) that wild and domesticated are too different quantities.

The "magical" intelligence that you want to pretend that exists is a myth that you need to pull out of your mind. There is no "oneness with the earth" that allows you to secretly communicate with animals if you just hum harder and louder than the rest. Your friend with the horses has merely spent a lot of time with those animals and understands their body language. That is as deep as it goes, no magic.

For someone who likes to use such big words I have never seen such a dumb argument. Please try again.

[remy]

Ridge;
How silly you are...as if on a forum, your responses were not free to spark interest from all participants...I know what you meant by that word, it is because i know what you meant by that word that i pointed to its silliness. Now if you meant something else by it, then why choose this word ?

Beerdude;
Same all same all yes ? You want answers, and i have none to give...like a little child, you pull on my pants while asking relentlessly for some point...some resolution put in a form which suits your intellectual laziness...answers and resolutions are not for me to give. Especially to those that cannot hear.
If i am best ignored, you yourself are best to ignore me.

Montana;
Your "shortcomings", as you simply put it, are not of technics. How did my 11 dogs interact ? Like dogs. My method ? A "not-doing" or what some refer to as "wu-wei". But i never said i intended on training those dogs for a particular task...i simply said, between the lines, that the whip does not fit a "positive reward" method. I simply pointed out a dichotomy within your post...a dichotomy reflected once again in all of us...me included.

Grundle;
You are a funny one.
I will pass on debating about the defensive mechanisms belonging to Montana, since you obviously have better things to look at.

Ok...let's take your little surge of misplaced hormones seriously for a second.

You bring up "bear whisper" to drive your point about wild and domesticated...are you for real ? As if a specific specie, under a specific "quantity" (your word...which by the way does not work...but ok) was linked to eating my face off. I have seen horses kill, and bears walk away...dogs kill, and sharks swim away. Your little temper-tantrum must be jamming your circuitry...Wild and domesticated are indeed two different "quantities", but in no way, one or the other determines the outcome of an encounter.

Next...i do not know where you fetched this "magical" term, but your imagination has no borders. You go on to talk about concepts that never even entered my mind, or maybe a little when i was 5 years old, like "oneness with the earth", or "secretly" communicating with animals, or "humming"...it is humorous and kind of cute, and might spark a little shiver in the eyes of wildwoman, but you are miles away from Intelligence...who would have thought...

Seriously, we are here talking about relations. Dare i say it...intelligent relations...between us men, or between us and dogs...us and anything...
If you, Grundle, can give me your understanding of this relation, or even you beerdude, then we might be getting somewhere...but if, you still feel like reverting to acting like a child in a wet paper bag vomiting his lunch, then i am not interested.

If we ask ourselves the meaning, the direction of the word "relation", we might give answers to Montana. Not through technics all more absurd and dysfunctional than the next, but in intents all more coherent than the next...all pointing towards intelligence.

[beerrunner13]

I told you guys he could not do it.

[Ridge Wolf]

Ridge;
How silly you are...as if on a forum, your responses were not free to spark interest from all participants...I know what you meant by that word, it is because i know what you meant by that word that i pointed to its silliness. Now if you meant something else by it, then why choose this word ?

Beerdude;
Same all same all yes ? You want answers, and i have none to give...like a little child, you pull on my pants while asking relentlessly for some point...some resolution put in a form which suits your intellectual laziness...answers and resolutions are not for me to give. Especially to those that cannot hear.
If i am best ignored, you yourself are best to ignore me.

Montana;
Your "shortcomings", as you simply put it, are not of technics. How did my 11 dogs interact ? Like dogs. My method ? A "not-doing" or what some refer to as "wu-wei". But i never said i intended on training those dogs for a particular task...i simply said, between the lines, that the whip does not fit a "positive reward" method. I simply pointed out a dichotomy within your post...a dichotomy reflected once again in all of us...me included.

Grundle;
You are a funny one.
I will pass on debating about the defensive mechanisms belonging to Montana, since you obviously have better things to look at.

Ok...let's take your little surge of misplaced hormones seriously for a second.

You bring up "bear whisper" to drive your point about wild and domesticated...are you for real ? As if a specific specie, under a specific "quantity" (your word...which by the way does not work...but ok) was linked to eating my face off. I have seen horses kill, and bears walk away...dogs kill, and sharks swim away. Your little temper-tantrum must be jamming your circuitry...Wild and domesticated are indeed two different "quantities", but in no way, one or the other determines the outcome of an encounter.

Next...i do not know where you fetched this "magical" term, but your imagination has no borders. You go on to talk about concepts that never even entered my mind, or maybe a little when i was 5 years old, like "oneness with the earth", or "secretly" communicating with animals, or "humming"...it is humorous and kind of cute, and might spark a little shiver in the eyes of wildwoman, but you are miles away from Intelligence...who would have thought...

Seriously, we are here talking about relations. Dare i say it...intelligent relations...between us men, or between us and dogs...us and anything...
If you, Grundle, can give me your understanding of this relation, or even you beerdude, then we might be getting somewhere...but if, you still feel like reverting to acting like a child in a wet paper bag vomiting his lunch, then i am not interested.

If we ask ourselves the meaning, the direction of the word "relation", we might give answers to Montana. Not through technics all more absurd and dysfunctional than the next, but in intents all more coherent than the next...all pointing towards intelligence.

Same sh** different day...

[DOGMAN]

How did my 11 dogs interact ? Like dogs. My method ? A "not-doing" or what some refer to as "wu-wei".

I find your natural action kennel management approach fascinating. So please elaborate on this. Your eleven dogs... they just ran around and did whatever it is that dogs do when left to their own devices? What happened when a female came into heat? How did they establish their pack hierarchy? How and where did you house them? Was their any containment of them at all- or did they just roam? Did they ever get into trouble with the neighbors or local animals? Did you feed them, or just let them hunt on their own? Please take the time to answer these questions.

Also, have you ever read anything by Chogyam Trungpa? If you haven't I'd recommend starting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism
if you have read his stuff- maybe skim over it again. He was a very insightful person- I am sure you will understand and like it;)

[trax]

Dude, you're asking Remy to elaborate on something. With no offence to Remy, man are you locked up in solitary confinement? How much time do you reall need to kill? :D :D :D

[DOGMAN]

Dude, you're asking Remy to elaborate on something. With no offence to Remy, man are you locked up in solitary confinement? How much time do you reall need to kill? :D :D :D

Ha, Ha, Ha...Man that was funny.:D:D:D

[beerrunner13]

Trax is da man, but what makes it so funny is that it is spot on true. He will fill a page and do nothing but talk in circles, insult and never answer a question and his only point is on the top of his head. But he will fill up a lot of space doing so wait till he morphs into another persona :eek: always good for a few chuckles as he tells you he has no answers and you are the one at fault. He should be writeing speeches for Hillery. ;)

[trax]

Heyyyy now, I was just funnin'. I like Remy's posts (well, some of them) I'm glad I don't have to pay long distance charges when I read them, mind you.:D

[Rick]

Easy now. Let's not be chastising others. We're all friends here.

[trax]

Yeah, what Mom said. :p

[remy]

When one creates a ship, one does not preoccupy himself with nails and masts, with sails and planks, but he encapsulates in his arsenal ten thousand slaves, and many corporals with whips...and here blossom the ships' glory. And i have never seen a slave bragging about having conquered the sea.

All i am suggesting, is you do not need the whip.

[Ridge Wolf]

When one creates a ship, one does not preoccupy himself with nails and masts, with sails and planks, but he encapsulates in his arsenal ten thousand slaves, and many corporals with whips...and here blossom the ships' glory. And i have never seen a slave bragging about having conquered the sea.

All i am suggesting, is you do not need the whip.

Kudos to you Remy... now that makes sense.. :D

[beerrunner13]

And a great expaination of your kennel management method too I might add.

[grundle]

When one creates a ship, one does not preoccupy himself with nails and masts, with sails and planks, but he encapsulates in his arsenal ten thousand slaves, and many corporals with whips...and here blossom the ships' glory. And i have never seen a slave bragging about having conquered the sea.

All i am suggesting, is you do not need the whip.

When one flatulates he does not preoccupy himself with beans and rice, with meat and vittles, but he encapsulates in his ARSEnal ten thousand pounds of pressure and many foul odors...and here blossoms the noxious wind. On occasion I have heard a buttocks bragging about things to come.

All I am suggesting is you stop blowing wind out your mouth, it stinks!

[klkak]

This guy "Remy". Is he someones cruel attempt at comic relief?

[Sam]

This guy "Remy". Is he someones cruel attempt at comic relief?

Remy is in my opinion, and it is just that not good or bad. I think he looks at things from a different angle/perspective. We all do that, don't we?
I hope we all look at life in different ways as that makes us interesting.
Just my .02 on this.

[beerrunner13]

This guy "Remy". Is he someones cruel attempt at comic relief?

Yes.Gods I think he has been drinking the bong water again.. But in his usual fashion he has hijacked another thread and made it about himself, so his need for attention has been meet for today. His usual, lots of big pretty words and nothing said, followed by his attack on anyone who can find his point buried in the babble that flows out of him in seemingly endless torrents.

[dilligaf2u2]

Ok guys think! The dogs barking non stop. There is a reason. Not enough Bacon in his diet! Why else would he be barking all the time??

Some people should be made to live as they make their dogs live, for a few weeks.

I had one of those barking dogs in the area. Someone (Not saying who) waited till the dog cacher was in the area and turned him loose. A week later I went to the pound and he was there. I adopted him and after some time got him settled in. It only took me a few weeks to find him a good home out in the country. Turned out to be a great companion for that friend of mine. I know he was happier not being locked and ignored in a 6 X 9 dirty dog run.

The guy next door would go out of town for several days at a time and leave the dog outside. Yes even in winter. I would go over and give the poor thing water, food and some attention. After the 8th or 10 time of doing this, I called animal control and they arrested the guy when he got back. The Judge fined the guy $2000 and made him pay for the dog to be kept till it was adopted, from the pound. At $25 a day that adds up fast. He has yet to get another dog.

Don

[crashdive123]

Nice job Don.

[remy]

Well, look at them bark like little froufrou dogs just out for their morning turd...Your responses are my funerals, and in this light, i like you all the more, for your blindness appeases my contemplations.

Dogs bark, because they have understood a long time ago, that YOU bark. Something to do with the fact that we are deaf. Change your method of communication, and you will change your dog's adaptation to your limitations, to your needs.

Hey Grundle...be-careful, you are starting to resemble me. I am glad i could help with your composition though...
I like how you guys pile on, i guess safety in numbers is always on our minds...good for you.

[Rick]

Enough is enough. There is no reason to make this personal. If you don't agree with one another just ignore the thread. The thread is CLOSED.