What comes first Shelter or Fire?

[Wise Old Owl]

I see from all these wonderful video's on Discovery that Shelter comes first. Then they suffer three nights and never get a fire, to me that's amazing. Humidity, moisture, lack of dry wood,,,, etc.

My Question is more about critical thinking - to me collecting material for both comes first. After finding a water source nearby.

Hey just looking for thoughts here.

[hunter63]

I'm voting fire first......although a lot would depend on clothing, location, other gear......
Fire can play a part in security, water processing, food cooking processing weapon points, light etc.

Proper clothing IS shelter, so the need for fire may be less if fresh water available.

Watching N&A right now....they chose shelter, and drank from the lake....We will see.....LOL

[Batch]

Shelter would be a priority without any hesitation.

We were playing golf the yesterday. Temperatures are usually in the mid 90's this time of year with high humidity.

We had weather bands moving through that chilled the air to the point that I would think of it as cool. When it did rain the cart had a fold up window rear cover that goes over your clubs. I have Dri-Ducks in my golf bag. If I did get wet, I would at least be uncomfortable.

Fire provides heat, light and possible protection from predators. Shelter blocks the wind, protects against rain, snow, sun. Provides a barrier between you and predators or dangerous animals. Regulates temperature both hot and cold.

I don't know if you meant the History Channel and Alone or not. But, given the temperatures and the rain. Which would you chose an un-sheltered fire or a shelter and no fire?

[WalkingTree]

I feel that the answer to such a question depends very much on your situation. The environment, climate, equipment, time of day, etc. I always say that the rule-of-thumb-clichés that float around won't help a person survive at all...they instead need to understand the issues that they face and basic skills necessary so that they can make a reasoned decision for themselves. I also always say that in the beginning, you really need many things at once. Making the priority judgment calls for the first couple days is the trick. You aren't in trouble when you get thirsty, hungry, cold, or covered in mosquito bites...you are in trouble that first minute. That very first moment, you are already in trouble, and you should treat things as such.

post edit - I chose "Collecting material near a water source first". That way (as someone else mentioned below) in one action you have fire material and building material, and you don't find yourself hiking for miles to water later or the next day after becoming mean-thirsty from building the initial shelter etc. But this assumes that you don't spend too much time or energy finding a water source first.

[Batch]

I'm voting fire first......although a lot would depend on clothing, location, other gear......
Fire can play a part in security, water processing, food cooking processing weapon points, light etc.

Proper clothing IS shelter, so the need for fire may be less if fresh water available.

Watching N&A right now....they chose shelter, and drank from the lake....We will see.....LOL

Proper clothing is a great protection from the elements and if you have it you may prioritize differently. Saying it is shelter means you feel you have shelter and are now going for fire.

But, in my environment you are dealing with rain and water. You are not going to sleep on the ground in the open with a fire even in the best rain gear. Also, how is your fire going to work with out protecting it from the rain?

[natertot]

This is a question that does not have an absolute answer. It depends on needs and the current situation. Am I wet and need to be dry? Is it raining? Do I have water? All these things come into play with this question.

Personally, I carry a tarp, some line, and a few stakes so getting at least a improvised shelter in 20mins or less really is never an issue.

[Seniorman]

Where I recreate, Rocky Mountains, if I have to stay out at night, I'll construct a shelter first with a tarp and paracord, then gather my wood and build a fire. I always have the proper clothing with me so although I might be uncomfortable through the night, I'll certainly survive.

As far as a fire is concerned, I go by that old adage, "When you think you've gathered enough firewood for the night ..... triple it." :thumbup1:

S.M.

[Phaedrus]

It will depend on the circumstances but generally shelter is the first order of business. As much as we obsess over fire it's unnecessary in a lot of situations and where it's really dry the fire might be more dangerous than doing without. If you have shelter you may not need a fire at all. Really, what do we need fire for anyways? In cold weather it's helpful but a well constructed debris shelter will keep you warm enough. It depends on your gear, the environment, the temp, etc. Fire is useful for sterilizing water but generally you have some time; you can live a few days without water in many situations. And drinking water tainted with bacteria is always better than dying of dehydration. The first order of business is to get out of the elements. For example if it's raining you're much better off getting under a tarp and then planning your next move than trying to start a fire in the rain.

[crashdive123]

As has been stated ---- depends.

For my location shelter would be my top priority most of the year. During the colder part of the year (parts of winter), fire would probably top my list. In both cases it is for protection from the elements.

That being said - water procurement is near the top of the list. In summer with the afternoon thunderboomers the initial source would be from the sky, followed by a water source that would need to be boiled/filtered.

This of course assumes "no gear". I don't go on a day hike without a poncho, a couple of trash bags and some other gear. My shelter may not take all that long to build, and of course if I have that material I also have a fire kit or two so that is not an issue either. I just don't go into the woods naked or afraid.

[MrFixIt]

The area and situation would decide what comes first for me as well.
Having said that, the old mantra "3 minutes w/o air, 3 hours w/o shelter, 3 days w/o water, 3 weeks w/o food" always comes to mind.

[Lamewolf]

Shelter is always first, remember that exposure wheter hot or cold can kill in 3 hours. If it cold and raining or snowing or windy, shelter is of utmost importance to shield you from the elements. In most cases, shelter materials are basically the same as fire building materials, wood ! Collecting extrat wood while gather shelter materials is not a bad thing but you need to concentrate on keeping dry and out of the wind, and if its hot you obviously don't need to worry about fire right away. Aslo, you can last up to 3 days without water, maybe less if its really hot, but water is your next priority after shelter and fire if needed in that order. If its raining, you can set out a container to catch water while building your shelter and let mother nature work for you. But bottom line is, you need protection from the elements first !

[TXyakr]

Depends on your environment. But generally you should just assume it will rain regardless even if it has not in a month or more. Collect tender material as you walk around looking for low areas or possible springs for water and anywhere that has poles and foliage that can be use to make shelter. I.e. collect stuff for fire, shelter first. Then build minimal night/rain/snow shelter first saving whatever looks good for fire as you go (should have been collecting basic tender/ fire starter all day put in bag or bundle and carry by hand if you must, assuming it will rain and all will be wet later). Make feather sticks if no obvious tender exists, try several different types of hanging dead branches not from ground to see what works best if area is not your regular stomping grounds.

THEN!!! once basic, minimal shelter but NOT Taj Mahal is done AND you have a reasonable amount of fire wood BEFORE it got dark (i.e. about 3-5X what you think you could possibly use) start and keep a very small fire going, boil water. Continue working on shelter. I.e. add about 3x or more leaves than you think it could possibly require to keep rain out and your body heat in, assume temperature will drop way low then it will rain before sun comes out and keep things very cold and wet and put your fire out. I.E worst case SHTF. If every thing is rose petals then sing a happy song and say this is shear luxury. That is what my father did. It seemed to tick off the folks who focused on minor discomforts of living in the bush. Focus on what you CAN DO! That is what I learned.

Edit: If for some reason you do not have even a poncho or tarp of any kind and must rely on a debris shelter then I would allow a minimum of 6 hours before sunset to build a shelter (depending on availability of materials). If a LOT and some man made junk perhaps as little as 4 hours. Use your fingers/hands between sun and horizon. Each finger is about 15 minutes but you should calibrate your fingers every few years especially if you get very fat or skinny. Or far north or near the equator etc, i.e. 6 hands fingers together, still have about one hour after with some light if not very cloudy and plan to work thru any rain non-stop. Go for water if possible, sure humans can theoretically go 2-3 days without water, but if you ever tried it you will know they are not very productive and make serious errors. SO if at all possible drink some water!!! You will be more productive it will be worth the time spent! People who plan survival base on book knowledge and no experience make my eyes roll back in my head.

NOT Survival mode: When I am just recreationally camping and NOT in a true survival mode or practicing it I always set up my temporary shelter (most often a tarp + hammock but I also own 5 tents for where a hammock does not work or wife likes air mattress etc.). Because location is very important and I need maximum light for that, I have learned to be very picky, avoid human and game trails, falling rocks and widow maker limbs and trees etc. etc. Get as far from other humans as reasonable without offending them. Then I collect fire wood if regulations allow (no fire ban). And if I have all my gear (not extreme survival mode where all is lost) starting a fire takes about 1 minute at most once fuel is collected. But I assumed this question was about survival mode not recreational camping.

Hotel I put everything in drawers, hangers and safe and empty suitcase in closet, wife and kids leave open suit cases with clothes and shoes scattered everywhere. Ticks me off.

[TXyakr]

There are many scenarios were a fire + collecting fuel for it should be first over shelter or water. One I thought of based on my life experience is if you were driving down a very remote dirt logging or ranch road during a thunderstorm and got washed into a ditch or flooded stream and only survived with the poncho on your back and somehow lost your trusty belt or neck knife with fire-starter attached (cord/belt ripped lose as you were being washed down stream). Similar scenario if your gear all got lost in a river with watercraft (raft, canoe, kayak, Jon boat) hung in rapids or logjam, you survived but were swept miles down river, cold and very wet. All gear hung up in trees and logjams on the other side. Very unlikely but possible this could happen. I know of a few people, one was my Father, he even lost his blades and firearms. It took him days to reach civilization, he was young and lacked experience.

Then first priority would be to collect enough fire wood (standing dead, and dead branches lower down on older trees, aka squaw wood which sounds racist to me) to build a small fire from friction. Hopefully you have some cordage from boots, belt, jacket etc. rip bits of clothing. Can make a minimal bow and board. If not hand drill or saw which are MUCH more difficult in pouring rain. I keep either a single utility razor or tiny folding knife in minimal FAK in my pants pocket but could cut wood with stone or clamshell but that’s major PITA. Try it some time, you can make a fire-board and spindle etc. but very difficult and takes a long time with shell or sharp rock. When you lose your blade you will suffer! So have a backup blade! I bought 12 Maxam® Falcon IV Lockback Knives for about $11 including shipping on eBay. I attach to keychain, FAK, inside PFD on loop, to loop in swim pants and loop inside pocket of hiking pants, many places. They are junk but for less than $1 each better than nothing if I lose my primary bush knife. Same with 1” ferro-rod toggle for fire starting. Over the years I have collected and used several magnesium blocks even a tiny one, shaving a bunch off it in very wet conditions helps to get started, also sold in toggles or cut bottom off your cheap one from Harbor Freight (cut SLOWLY!! by hand! or be smart buy toogle on eBay.)

Then huddle under poncho or rain-suit or dry-suit/dry-top from canoe/kayak make insulated backrest with debris so backside does not get extremely cold. If at all possible lean two branches or poles (saplings broken off) against a tree (not tallest!). Make a small triangle of leafy branches on top of it sit under this beside fire so most of rain is not pounding you and fire. Will also deflect some falling branches. Sit on as much dryish brush as possible so lighting does not fry your posterior, keep feet out of water as well. Reconsider trips during major thunderstorm weather, and don’t drive down a muddy narrow road with zero visibility or attempt to cross any flooded streams, ditto for canoes in rain swollen rivers. I am older and a bit wiser now, but I still like adventure. If I stayed on sofa for rest of my life it would be shorter by a decade or two, must get out there.

[Sarge47]

It depends on a lot of things. How much daylight do I have? How quick can I at least get the 3 room cabin tent up. Does my charcoal lighter have enough butane....:detective:

[kyratshooter]

I have spent many nights in the elements when fire was not a possibility, and often was not allowed. Cover yourself up with your poncho, lean against a tree, and catch what sleep you can.

Shelter is a necessity, and sometimes your clothes, although they are a form of shelter, are not enough. Even the simple act of digging a hole in the ground and covering it with branches will get one out of the wind, eliminate the wind chill, and allow one to survive. Dropping into a hollow or around the side of a bluff, or even diving into the middle of a thick grove of trees can put you in a place where the temps are either higher or lower as the season demands.

Then there are all the folks backpacking out west, where open fires are not allowed, and they have to get by with those little back packing stoves. They seem to make it through the night with just their sleeping bags and clothes. They filter their water, or treat it with chemicals, no fire needed.

But I want fire too, if I can get it, or its presences will not cause me grief.

Shelter is a necessity, fire is a luxury.

[TXyakr]

Building no shelter at all or a very minimal one can workout OK assuming you have a rain resistant jacket, coat or poncho or a tiny pocket tarp, even a large garbage bag 2’x3’ because most debris or bush-craft shelters thrown up in a few hours leak like a pasta strainer, i.e. never enough layers. If the skies are clear then the temperature will drop very fast as soon as the sun goes down so pile many layers of leaves held up with sticks on top and make the space small to keep your body heat in. If it is cloudy the temperature will not drop quite so fast but it will be more humid so you also need protection above to keep the dew off and more space below to avoid trapping the humidity, regardless it will be steamy. But with luck the morning sun will dry you out in a few hours, if not and it is raining that is a bummer, you will mold like cheese and smell like Roquefort (stinky but tasty French unpasteurized sheep’s cheese). Research best quality fabrics that will not smell when sweaty or wet so predators don’t think you are a sheep or goose. Some wools and synthetics are much better than others both at not absorbing smells and water and at drying.

If cloudy and humid and all the wood is wet and/or green it will smoke and you may not be able to sit very close, especially if winds are shifting and if you think you planned it just right and winds change you may not able to breath in your shelter with fire burning. So sleep in cold, wet shelter or breath smoke all night long. Verbose way of saying just sitting around fire all night long with rain jacket on, leaning against logs and makeshift backrest of sticks stuck in ground is sometimes the best. I have slept all night sitting up but in a slightly reclined position on the ground in the open air beside a small campfire (no sleeping bag). It was fine. In hindsight fewer adult beverages would have been wise, only joking I drink very little alcohol.

[WalkingTree]

I hear tell the cowboys on the open plains would start fire, shave an area of ground, spread coals over this area, cover back up with dirt, and sleep on that with a simple blanket over them. If rain or nothing else will be a problem, for just keeping warm with practically nothing and not many trees or hillsides to be up against...if it's pretty cold and even a stiff wind, you got some minimal fabric (or bank up some dirt along your profile a few inches high) to block the wind from directly hitting your face, hands, feet, etc...it can't do too bad keeping you warm. Might not be perfectly comfy, but will keep you alive and actually let you get some real sleep.

post edit btw - just noticed on the poll, the "no clue or something else" is climbing. Arg!

[LowKey]

"Didn't put enuff dirt down....Saw it right off..."

[hunter63]

Going down the river....dump my canoe (...and y'all know how often we do that around here)....
SO...I get out of the water and make a...... shelter?.....naw, I'm still sticking with fire ..in my scenario.

....and as no scenarios were presented....that my story and I sticking to it....besides...who wants to sit around a ...shelter?

[natertot]

Going down the river....dump my canoe (...and y'all know how often we do that around here)....
SO...I get out of the water and make a...... shelter?.....naw, I'm still sticking with fire ..in my scenario.

....and as no scenarios were presented....that my story and I sticking to it....besides...who wants to sit around a ...shelter?

I agree. I can find/improvise a shelter rather quickly. I always carry a tarp and a canoe can make a bit of a shelter as well by propping it up at an angle with a few sticks. If I am soaked and need to get dried out, I want fire. When I hear the coyotes in the not too far distance, I want fire. When I am thirsty and starring at a lake, I want fire. When the temps dip at 2 am, I want fire. When I catch a fish, I want fire. When rescue is looking for me, I want fire. Shelter may not always be ideal, but it is easy. Fire maybe more difficult depending on the situation and may provide for more immediate necessities than shelter.

I will stick with fire overall, but it depends on the situation as well.

[kyratshooter]

Yea guys, but if you dump over your canoe you might not be staying the night.

It is the difference between you guys using canoes and me being a john boat person. Unless a barge runs over me I'm not turning over my flotation filled john boat. You guys ride those round bottomed butt washers and stay stressed all the time!

All you are concerned with at the instant of the big roll is drying your clothes. If it is early in the day you would just build a fire, dry out, reload the canoe and keep traveling.

And as you say, you are carrying a shelter along with you, so you just build the fire as part of the camp building process.

Besides, you build the fire in a suitable spot, no matter what kind of shelter you intend. So you pick the spot for the shelter, and the fire is part of the sheltering process. Trying to build the fire when it is not sheltered from the wind or rain is a waste of time. You get out of the elements as much as possible before building the fire under normal circumstances.

And just try building that fire inside your snow cave! See how that works out.

It all depends on the circumstances, weather, condition of the wood, condition of the area and the host of other factors that make up the situation.

[natertot]

Yea guys, but if you dump over your canoe you might not be staying the night. Why not? In some places I have canoed it is a couple days journey to get back!

It is the difference between you guys using canoes and me being a john boat person. Unless a barge runs over me I'm not turning over my flotation filled john boat. You guys ride those round bottomed butt washers and stay stressed all the time! True, a john boat is more stable. Have you ever portaged a john boat though? I haven't, nor do I want to try! Stressed? Nah! I have been wet from environmental factors way many more times than from a canoe tipping over. An accidental canoe tipping only occurred twice to me. Once I was paired up with a newbie that was on the heavier side and he was sick the day our physics class covered center of gravity. He figured it out perdy quick after that. The only other time was a hunting trip in which all second amendment pieces and accessories were lost. Other than that, never had an issue.

All you are concerned with at the instant of the big roll is drying your clothes. If it is early in the day you would just build a fire, dry out, reload the canoe and keep traveling. Very true. Later in the day, just set up camp.

And as you say, you are carrying a shelter along with you, so you just build the fire as part of the camp building process. I agree. Fire location depends on shelter location and camp as a whole.

Besides, you build the fire in a suitable spot, no matter what kind of shelter you intend. So you pick the spot for the shelter, and the fire is part of the sheltering process. Trying to build the fire when it is not sheltered from the wind or rain is a waste of time. You get out of the elements as much as possible before building the fire under normal circumstances. True. That is why I have the disclaimer of "depending on the situation".

And just try building that fire inside your snow cave! See how that works out.I am not canoeing in the winter. Canoes don't work out on frozen lakes so well. See link below.

It all depends on the circumstances, weather, condition of the wood, condition of the area and the host of other factors that make up the situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-5SmgRyccM

It does depend on the situation as a whole. I guess I consider shelter second because I can improvise it easier and in little time with what I bring with me. I also figure if it gets dark on me, I can build it by the light of the fire (although that is more challenging and not desired, but we don't always get to pick our circumstances). Fire can be more of an environmental challenge, as you mentioned weather and condition of available wood.

[Sarge47]

Agreeing with Kyrat on this one. This is kinda like the old riddle: "Which came 1st, the chicken or the egg." Wouldn't want to carve this in stone, but I read somewhere that if you find yourself in the woods then fire should be 1st. However if you're in the open then it's shelter. Anyway you look at it your situation is going to determine your priorities on this.

If it's a nice sunny day and you have plenty of time and dry wood then you can go ahead and make a fire if it's not illegal where you're at. Unless you're in a true survival situation odds favor that you have a tent or tarp with plenty of 550 cord to set up a shelter and that shouldn't take you very long.

If it's coming down hard and regular you might want to opt for the shelter 1st and try getting a fire going later, or if you can't get dry wood then not at all. The situation and geographical location could very well decide what you want to do 1st.

A year ago, when I camped out at my brother's property, my son and I set up tents 1st, then started the campfire. No particular reason, that's just the way we did it. We got the biggest amount of work done 1st, then got the fire going, set up folding camp chairs, and enjoyed the rest of the evening. I don't see that it's all that big of a deal which you do first as long as you get both of them done soon if you can.

It's not rocket science and there's no "survival police" going to come along and write you a ticket for making the wrong choice. One side note, I find it easier to start a fire in low light than set up a shelter; just sayin'....:yes:


p.s.: I'd prefer a John boat to a canoe; more stability and room to pack stuff.

[hunter63]

...................
p.s.: I'd prefer a John boat to a canoe; more stability and room to pack stuff.

Easier to stand up and shoot out of a jon boat.....so I guess it just depend what boat is chosen "that day".

[TXyakr]

On a recent episode of Discovery Channel's Naked and Afraid (unrealist show not withstanding) the Green Beret and Nurse from WI in Guyana did very well, BUT he probably should have listened to her and made a very small fire to boil/treat some water to maintain their maximum health possible to be alert and effective at building their first shelter. Also stack and protect as best possible some standing dead fire wood. They both got parasites under skin and probably in guts, I have had many of these as well. They can really slow you down and sap your strength so clean water if it requires a fire and making plant/clay pastes for insect repellents which most indigenous and bushcraft/herbalist can teach you is very helpful. Rubbing raw uncooked clay on your skin can just give you skin nematodes and other parasites which I have had dozens off and they take several days to get rid of and can lead to secondary bacterial infections, NOT FUN!!! So in this rather unusual situation a very small fire can be #1 on list even though the weather is very hot.

Also I noticed that they were slow to figure out the importance of getting off the ground. Sleeping on the ground in very cold places or where there is absolutely no bottom insulation I understand. But after a few days you should be able to weave or layer leaves to form a thick bottom insulated layer up off the ground and avoid most of the bitting/stinging insects, scorpions, snakes etc. In the jungle only some (not all) of the dogs and pigs sleep on the ground, cats, poultry and virtually every other critter and human does NOT!!! (i.e. those that have lived there for generations not the foolish tourists and TV show contestants.)

I also noticed a similar decision by N&A XL group of 3 men to build huge shelter before getting and boiling water, this was very risky and they lost one man due to that choice. Not wise IMO and from my experience in jungle a few hundred miles from that location.

[Winter]

Shelter has many aspects and is always first. I say it's always first because I consider clothing to be shelter, so you are already doing shelter tasks before you leave the house.

Fire making and sustainment along with water source proximity all relate to choosing a shelter location.

All these tasks should be inclusive of one another. If they are not, you end up wasting a lot of energy walking back and forth to other areas for materials.

Think of your camp/shelter location like a kitchen. A properly designed kitchen keeps you 3 steps of less from sink to oven/stove to refrigerator. Now, 3 steps is not going to happen in most cases, but if you can have camp, a water source, materials for fire and shelter, and a food source close by, you have selected an excellent shelter location.

I never camp alone, so usually the fire and shelter and being built at the same time making priority of tasks almost a moot point. If I was alone, weather would be the determining factor in what comes first.

[Rick]

I consider clothing to be shelter, so you are already doing shelter tasks before you leave the house

Well, some of us do and we've been meaning to talk to the rest of you. We just have to shade our eyes first.

[Winter]

http://travelbuff.net/eastern_campgrounds.htm

[TXyakr]

My experience staying at the Sandals resort in Negril Jamaica next to this Hedonism II resort was that most of its guests were middle aged or older and I did not want to see all that sagging going on. Granted some of them had recently had silicon suck in their chests and it was tight and lifted up again but I still would prefer that they stay on their side of the fence.

http://www.hedonism.com/what-is-hedonism/destination-negril/

My wife thought I was taking the little sailboats out and going around the tiny reef island to get a better look, I was like what?!? I grew up with topless mostly nude indigenous people and most of them were not all old and wrinkled like those pathetic people. The were smoking "herbs" sleeping on the beach all night and day with absolutely no shelter. No wonder they were so winkled. Best to avoid that "herb" or you may forget the value of shelter and clothing. Just my personal opinion.

[Winter]

Dress for the body you have, not the one you want.

[Wildthang]

The only time I take a fire first is if it is almost dark. I like building a shelter using fire light so I don't have to use up my flashlight batteries. Plus I can at least find some wood before it goes totally dark. Otherwise it's always shelter first! Of course with a 10' X 12" tarp it doesn't take long to build the shelter!

[Wise Old Owl]

Going down the river....dump my canoe (...and y'all know how often we do that around here)....
SO...I get out of the water and make a...... shelter?.....naw, I'm still sticking with fire ..in my scenario.

....and as no scenarios were presented....that my story and I sticking to it....besides...who wants to sit around a ...shelter?

couple of times I have flipped the canoe jammed it into a low crotch and that was my shelter.

[Rick]

That's sounds way too painful.

[natertot]

That's sounds way too painful.

That is what I was thinking at first. He did say low crotch so I figured he meant those who wear there pants down to the knees. In that case, no harm done.

[hunter63]

That is what I was thinking at first. He did say low crotch so I figured he meant those who wear there pants down to the knees. In that case, no harm done.

Bhohahahaha.......

[Wildthang]

couple of times I have flipped the canoe jammed it into a low crotch and that was my shelter.

Is wearing a hong required for that?????

[natertot]

Is wearing a hong required for that?????

No, they tend to get in the way when jamming "canoes" into crotches......

[Wise Old Owl]

didn't see that coming... oh well - a tree crotch

[hunter63]

Canoe, tarp and paddles make a great fast shelter..........Don't really need a crotch......

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/Rondy/DSCF1138.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/hunter63/media/Rondy/DSCF1138.jpg.html)

[Rick]

Didn't see that coming? With this crew? Nothing gets by us more than half a dozen times.

[Gary]

Like others have said, there are a lot of factors to consider before you can make that decision. If I am soaking wet and have no other dry clothes then I would build a fire first.

[Erratus Animus]

I shoot for shelter. Here in Louisiana the mosquitos carry the West Nile virus. A mosquito net is always in my kit and with a shelter I can block the front from mosquitos and others flying insects whereas a fire does help but on the first night the shelter is my goal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[DSJohnson]

Great discussion here. Lots of very reasonable, well thought out responses.

[hunter63]

I shoot for shelter. Here in Louisiana the mosquitos carry the West Nile virus. A mosquito net is always in my kit and with a shelter I can block the front from mosquitos and others flying insects whereas a fire does help but on the first night the shelter is my goal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

''In your Kilt?.....OH.....KIT, not kilt...My bad....read it wrong......LOL....
Wonder how you would wear a mosquito net under a kilt...Hummmm

Never mind...Carry on.

[Adventure Wolf]

It depends on my situation. Is it cold, and am I starting to suffer from the early stages of hypothermia, then I would vote fire.

If I was in a wet environment, I would choose shelter to stay dry.

Lots of variables there.

[Wise Old Owl]

Well weight it out... if you have a tarp its first - if you are gathering a shelter a fire might be first... which is better?

[Erratus Animus]

''In your Kilt?.....OH.....KIT, not kilt...My bad....read it wrong......LOL....
Wonder how you would wear a mosquito net under a kilt...Hummmm

Never mind...Carry on.

I am sorry Hunter that you read it wrong. I am a fast typer and you may be a slower reader so I can see where the confusion lies! lol!!

[Erratus Animus]

Well weight it out... if you have a tarp its first - if you are gathering a shelter a fire might be first... which is better?

I still vote shelter on the first night. Natural or hasty. Just anything that will keep the dew off you and protect you from conduction and convection of the ground, insects and elements. Granted if your trying to be found or you just need that mental boost then go for it but its a big gamble.

Look at it in he form of risk management. Am I good enough to predict the weather for the next 24 hours? If the dew point rises and my clothing is soaked can I dry them, Is there the chance for rain? Is it very windy? How much heat do I need to keep my core stable? Am I certain I can get a fire and how will I keep it? Do I want to work all night to keep the fire going and lose valuable rest?

Asking questions like these can help you find the correct choice for you and the conditions where you are. .02

[TXyakr]

''In your Kilt?.....OH.....KIT, not kilt...My bad....read it wrong......LOL....
Wonder how you would wear a mosquito net under a kilt...Hummmm

Never mind...Carry on.

So I am not the only Dyslexic person reading a tiny screen. Kilts can be OK in dry climates but with nothing under them in a high mosquito area not a great choice. Better not be eating a lot of sugar and refined carbs or there will not be an inch of skin not under thick fabric that does not look like a strawberry. Disturbing mental image. I have camped with folks who like to wait until after it gets dark to eat in a swampy area. Get bit and face full of bugs despite red head light. Better to be under net reading a book by then. If just a fire no net it may reduce mosquitos, depending on what you burn and if you keep flames very low, mostly coals and smoke. If no tarp or equivalent and little time to collect materials and build and it is very humid or rainy you will get very freaking wet regardless.

[Erratus Animus]

The mosquito is our state bird!

[hunter63]

I am sorry Hunter that you read it wrong. I am a fast typer and you may be a slower reader so I can see where the confusion lies! lol!!

Yeah, I may be a slow reader.....but my mind does funny stuff some times.....so Kilt popped out......anyway, may have had some to do with the fact the across the street neighbor was out practicing with his bagpipes as I was reading that.

"What does a Scotsman have under his Kilt....
A-wang, a-wang......"......LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnlqTOsR0RA

Enjoy

[Erratus Animus]

Lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[Tristar777]

I think the decision would depend on the weather/environment you are in. I put shelter as here in the UK it rains a lot!
This would help in a couple of ways. First if you have to build shelter, while you are looking for shelter materials, you can also be collecting wood for fire too.
Secondly it provides a shelter to allow you to build the fire and not be put out by a quick shower and mean you have to start again.
So my answer is shelter unless something changes that order. Be adaptable to the situation and think clearly through your plan.

[NightSG]

Well, let's see; for the next week, daytime highs of 102F, with 55% humidity and overnight lows all the way down to 75F. Chance of rain tops out at 1% next Monday; zero until then.

Unless I'm rolling a couple 55 gallon drums of drinking water, find a water source and build a fire to boil it first. A shade tree is all the effective shelter I can get from the weather unless there's a cave nearby. (and around here, most caves are going to be vertical entry, so probably not an option without climbing gear) The fire will also be better mosquito protection than anything I can improvise.

[Erratus Animus]

Well, let's see; for the next week, daytime highs of 102F, with 55% humidity and overnight lows all the way down to 75F. Chance of rain tops out at 1% next Monday; zero until then.

Unless I'm rolling a couple 55 gallon drums of drinking water, find a water source and build a fire to boil it first. A shade tree is all the effective shelter I can get from the weather unless there's a cave nearby. (and around here, most caves are going to be vertical entry, so probably not an option without climbing gear) The fire will also be better mosquito protection than anything I can improvise.

This is why I suggest what is taught and what is written are concepts rather than how -too's but since most people have read more than they have built its hard for them to see outside the box. A shelter is nothing more than a static structure to keep you out of the elements. In the above case sitting on the eastward side of a tree may be enough to "shelter" you from the sun. If in an area like mine where people do contract west nile yearly hanging the mosquito bar from a tree limb would be all one needed to "shelter" from the insects.

Many times guys think SHELTER! I got to make something elaborate when a simple poncho or tarp and some paracord will make a nice one quickly. I try to look for natural landmarks or features that will either provide a ready made shelter or can provide a basic shelter with a little work. If I cant find it then my preferred is a plowpoint . I am also partial to tinker shelters.

[hunter63]

OK had to go and look up Tinkers tent...looks like 1/2 of a wiki up...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANfISdx0reE

I a big fan of dead falls with tarp, poncho, garbage bag and if necessary....debris

[Erratus Animus]

I make mine more like a 3/4 wiki so I can close the sideS a bit.

[gustafsj]

i too always carry a tarp with me and it is really easy and quick to put up unless it is really windy. I would start with the fire first unless it was raining or rain was imminent, then I would put the tarp up and then start the fire.

[Canadian-guerilla]

depends on weather, time of year, environment, etc

1 - water
2 - food

making yourself comfortable ( for the night ) doesn't mean you absolutely need a shelter


The Art of Nothing

http://www.primitivism.com/nothing.htm


Understanding the art of nothing is a somewhat challenging concept for us westerners. When we go on a "primitive" camping trip, we take our western preconceptions with us . We find a level spot in a meadow to build our shelters, and if a site is not level then we make it so. Then we gather materials and start from scratch, building the walls and roof of a shelter. We do what we are accustomed to; we build a frame house on a surveyed plot in the meadow. Then we gather materials and shingle our shelter, regardless of whether or not there is a cloud in the sky, or whether or not it has rained at all in a month.

Part of the reason we act this way stems from our cultural upbringing. Another part of it is simply because it is easier for those of us who are instructors to teach something rather than to teach nothing. It is much easier to teach how to make something than to teach how not to need to make anything. The do-something approach to primitive skills is to make everything you need, while the do-nothing method is to find everything .

For example, the do-nothing method of shelter is to find shelter, rather than to build it . Two hours spent searching for a partial shelter that can be improved upon can easily save you two hours of hard-working construction time, and you will usually get a better shelter this way. More so, the do-nothing method of shelter is to look first at the incoming weather , and to build only what is needed. If it is not going to rain then you may be able to do-nothing to rain-proof your shelter. Then perhaps you will only need to put your efforts into a shelter that will keep you warm, instead of both warm and dry.

[kyratshooter]

The concept of doing nothing is valid in many survival situations, if nothing is needed.

However, the thought that "nothing" is actually "nothing" is not valid. (do we know what the definition of IS, is?)

That requires us to rework our concepts and recognize shelter for what it is.

Shelter protects us from the elements. Simple as that.

I once had a geography prof whose favorite saying was that if nothing was happening outside we were not having "weather", since weather indicates a disturbance in the atmosphere. If there is no disturbance there is no need for much artificial shelter.

As has been stated before, the fire itself can be all the shelter one needs on a clear night with no wind and pleasing temps.

Going past that concept, a shelter we "find" might be better than any we can carry or make. A cave, an abandoned house, an abandoned vehicle might serve us better than a tent, tarp shelter or debris hut.

Found shelter has been the norm through most of history. At the present time it is a Federal offense to camp under a "rock shelter" in a cave or under a rock overhang. That is because all of these "natural shelters" have been declared archeology sites under Federal law. They have been used as shelter by native Americans for so many thousand years that they have historical merit just due to their suitability as natural shelters.

I slept through a rainy night once, pleasantly curled up under the thick branches of a spruce tree. My wife and kids would not have stamped their approval on that shelter, but it was fine for me and my meager expectations of only staying dry and not setting up housekeeping.

I do not think I built a fire that night, or the next morning. And I have slept outside many a night without fire due to circumstance or necessity, but I always had a poncho to roll up in, a blanket to wrap in, or a sleeping bag to crawl into. That is also shelter.

The real thing is that we are accustomed to camping where we have permission, often at a spot with level patch and fire ring provided. We can not move 50 feet this way or that way or walk a half mile to find a better situated site away from where we stand. Our wilderness areas have designated camping areas, fire bans, laws preventing cutting green wood and even laws to keep us on the trail and manageable. It is difficult to think outside the box when those conditions prevail.

So we build from the ground up, as the article stated. We naturally grow accustomed to thinking that shelter is what we carry with us or build rather than the naturally protected place we choose to lay our blankets and start our fire due to it being the "best spot" to shelter for the night.

[Winter]

Has anyone in this thread pointed out that fire is part of shelter?

Shelter, water, food.

[jdbushcraft]

. At the present time it is a Federal offense to camp under a "rock shelter" in a cave or under a rock overhang. .

Do you have a cite for this?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[kyratshooter]

Do you have a cite for this?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

http://www.nps.gov/archeology/tools/Laws/arpa.htm

This is a local notice where the law is being enforced on the ground.

http://rrgtoday.com/archivesA10.html

[natertot]

KyRat is right on the rock shelter. They are considered geologic formations and protected as such.

[randyt]

There is only one correct answer to this question. The answer is "it depends"

In regards to the bagpipes, must remember the folks that call bagpipes music also call golf a sport LOL

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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�айт (http://lambdatransition.ru)�айт (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)�айт (http://lammasshoot.ru)�айт (http://lamphouse.ru)�айт (http://lancecorporal.ru)�айт (http://lancingdie.ru)�айт (http://landingdoor.ru)�айт (http://landmarksensor.ru)�айт (http://landreform.ru)�айт (http://landuseratio.ru)�айт (http://languagelaboratory.ru)�айт (http://largeheart.ru)�айт (http://lasercalibration.ru)�айт (http://laserlens.ru)�айт (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

�айт (http://laterevent.ru)�айт (http://latrinesergeant.ru)�айт (http://layabout.ru)�айт (http://leadcoating.ru)�айт (http://leadingfirm.ru)�айт (http://learningcurve.ru)�айт (http://leaveword.ru)�айт (http://machinesensible.ru)�айт (http://magneticequator.ru)�айт (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)�айт (http://mailinghouse.ru)�айт (http://majorconcern.ru)�айт (http://mammasdarling.ru)�айт (http://managerialstaff.ru)�айт (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
�айт (http://manualchoke.ru)�айт (http://medinfobooks.ru)�айт (http://mp3lists.ru)�айт (http://nameresolution.ru)�айт (http://naphtheneseries.ru)�айт (http://narrowmouthed.ru)�айт (http://nationalcensus.ru)�айт (http://naturalfunctor.ru)�айт (http://navelseed.ru)�айт (http://neatplaster.ru)�айт (http://necroticcaries.ru)�айт (http://negativefibration.ru)�айт (http://neighbouringrights.ru)�айт (http://objectmodule.ru)�айт (http://observationballoon.ru)
�айт (http://obstructivepatent.ru)�айт (http://oceanmining.ru)�айт (http://octupolephonon.ru)�айт (http://offlinesystem.ru)�айт (http://offsetholder.ru)�айт (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)�айт (http://onesticket.ru)�айт (http://packedspheres.ru)�айт (http://pagingterminal.ru)�айт (http://palatinebones.ru)�айт (http://palmberry.ru)�айт (http://papercoating.ru)�айт (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)�айт (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)�айт (http://parkingbrake.ru)
�айт (http://partfamily.ru)�айт (http://partialmajorant.ru)�айт (http://quadrupleworm.ru)�айт (http://qualitybooster.ru)�айт (http://quasimoney.ru)�айт (http://quenchedspark.ru)�айт (http://quodrecuperet.ru)�айт (http://rabbetledge.ru)�айт (http://radialchaser.ru)�айт (http://radiationestimator.ru)�айт (http://railwaybridge.ru)�айт (http://randomcoloration.ru)�айт (http://rapidgrowth.ru)�айт (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)�айт (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
�айт (http://readingmagnifier.ru)�айт (http://rearchain.ru)�айт (http://recessioncone.ru)�айт (http://recordedassignment.ru)�айт (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)�айт (http://redemptionvalue.ru)�айт (http://reducingflange.ru)�айт (http://referenceantigen.ru)�айт (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)�айт (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)�айт (http://safedrilling.ru)�айт (http://sagprofile.ru)�айт (http://salestypelease.ru)�айт (http://samplinginterval.ru)�айт (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
�айт (http://scarcecommodity.ru)�айт (http://scrapermat.ru)�айт (http://screwingunit.ru)�айт (http://seawaterpump.ru)�айт (http://secondaryblock.ru)�айт (http://secularclergy.ru)�айт (http://seismicefficiency.ru)�айт (http://selectivediffuser.ru)�айт (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)�айт (http://semifinishmachining.ru)�айт (http://spicetrade.ru)�айт (http://spysale.ru)�айт (http://stungun.ru)�айт (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)�айт (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
�айт (http://tamecurve.ru)�айт (http://tapecorrection.ru)�айт (http://tappingchuck.ru)�айт (http://taskreasoning.ru)�айт (http://technicalgrade.ru)�айт (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)�айт (http://telescopicdamper.ru)�айт (http://temperateclimate.ru)�айт (http://temperedmeasure.ru)�айт (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)�айт (http://ultramaficrock.ru)�айт (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

Петр (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2334)137.7 (http://cottagenet.ru)Bett (http://eyesvision.ru)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com)Кузн (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1556216)This (http://filmzones.ru/t/1560258)музы (http://gadwall.ru/t/1778733)факу (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1438526)Соде (http://gageboard.ru/t/1466031)�окр (http://gagrule.ru/t/1346084)Seth (http://gallduct.ru/t/1654225)wish (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1667174)Loui (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1688359)Miss (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1704938)Mart (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1714958)
most (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1736987)Jasm (http://gascautery.ru/t/1770262)Radi (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1779156)Соло (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1813881)войн (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1628663)Zone (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1859342)ХаÑ�а (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1708364)Куце (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1496869)XIII (http://geartreating.ru/t/1563548)Mari (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1528664)Ð*фио (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1578297)wwwn (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1558924)wwwn (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1558930)Plan (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1611537)Гуре (http://getthebounce.ru/t/1459231)
��ее (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1584490)рефо (http://habituate.ru/t/1386797)Позд (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1475499)Remi (http://hackworker.ru/t/1698959)Винн (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1385971)�ики (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1441134)праз (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1437359)Гера (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1490208)Quem (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1528434)Ваен (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1554751)Wind (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1563642)Mitc (http://haltstate.ru/t/1612895)Mark (http://handcoding.ru/t/1656938)Elec (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1703203)tapa (http://handradar.ru/t/1740146)
Локв (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1777543)Susa (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1720265)OZON (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1846657)Домб (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/1355250)Corn (http://hardasiron.ru/t/1373428)Перв (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1438549)Карп (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1390347)Дани (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1392322)Circ (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1711276)Squa (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1549286)Adio (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1549328)Rivi (http://headregulator.ru/t/1549346)Ве�н (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1733407)Мило (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1580804)Фили (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1589492)
Змит (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1580068)Луго (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/1345814)Заве (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/1352093)Mary (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1717816)Pres (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/1389054)Фрол (http://jobstress.ru/t/1580469)гимн (http://jogformation.ru/t/1476554)до�к (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1580005)Твер (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1435393)Фаль (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1627604)Чугу (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1384556)Jane (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1569087)Сузд (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1371545)Серг (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1328351)Neut (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1373702)
Зото (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1349376)Берг (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/1354994)Пер� (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1408603)полу (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1585818)Robe (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1382244)�моц (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/1357203)Клеп (http://keyserum.ru/t/1582878)Звер (http://kickplate.ru/t/1668621)Zone (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1783835)Буро (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1436406)Merc (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1703968)по�т (http://kinozones.ru/film/4782)Jacq (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1514522)Thor (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1485198)Lost (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1780076)
Кузь (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1751436)Spin (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1857469)Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1549970)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1548777)Mama (http://laborracket.ru/t/1916089)Peop (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1977442)Haro (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1569261)Яцен (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1437505)Roun (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1530425)Vind (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1688325)Hats (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1757600)Кочк (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1475435)Брай (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1256386)Дыга (http://laggingload.ru/t/1489781)тек� (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1385069)
�луж (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1786920)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1783736)Zone (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1827583)Беле (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1491000)Бога (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1352745)Гонч (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1307034)Лихо (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1351413)Zone (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1711841)Alex (http://landreform.ru/t/1469803)Гаго (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1376334)John (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1578881)хоро (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161797)Frie (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1164011)Senn (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/738)изго (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590979)

[yellowcab]

беже (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178947)Ardo (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452063)Крем (http://layabout.ru/shop/453611)INTE (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600294)CHAR (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/106211)Копы (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/466035)Haya (http://leaveword.ru/shop/467260)PETE (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/270182)Кита (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/575972)Scen (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/446094)1611 (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/269059)Powe (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/577268)Adri (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/576094)Myst (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612392)Tall (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1040448)
Ð*ахм (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/601098)откр (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2362)Ambi (http://mp3lists.ru/item/4518)МакÑ� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151033)Scov (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/469671)Guid (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461838)изде (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1055912)Кита (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576311)Ñ�кла (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103061)Blac (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455444)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/178537)Enda (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/616350)Conc (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/640908)Tubu (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/447487)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/446179)
happ (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/102386)Cart (http://oceanmining.ru)Whis (http://octupolephonon.ru)Ð*оба (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/149244)Agat (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/203184)Marg (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/150311)XVII (http://onesticket.ru/shop/580437)Tran (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/582830)wwwi (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/684781)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/684158)Гука (http://palmberry.ru/shop/688985)Stre (http://papercoating.ru/shop/584196)Rock (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/689631)Soci (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1169052)Hans (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1169069)
Сидо (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1174041)Соде (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1173163)худо (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1543217)Каюп (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1538824)Багм (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/596234)Бобр (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/736584)�кза (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1073116)IDEF (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1075273)Топо (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/343302)Черн (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/510478)Веде (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/621474)фина (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/884811)Will (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/924686)Marc (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1156750)Case (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/357078)
Лапи (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/514914)Robe (http://rearchain.ru/shop/757827)Netw (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/641385)Орло (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1029202)Wind (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1055093)Кузн (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1063508)Л��к (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1686370)Са�м (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693921)Воро (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1765088)�ефе (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1775159)�тих (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1820060)Gene (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1057932)Поме (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1849744)Соко (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1876249)1920 (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1897959)
Илюх (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1493848)Свет (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1482606)нача (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1495863)авто (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1567019)Maki (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1422977)Шала (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1492680)Веде (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/343006)�ефе (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/401128)Wind (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/402833)Троф (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1689621)Senn (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/738)Senn (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/738)Senn (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/738)Penn (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/484088)Will (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/491662)
Жени (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/499519)друг (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/502452)Соде (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/488865)знан (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/500301)Сотн (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1823091)Audi (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1881680)Jane (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1902268)Anot (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/789477)изда (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/402813)авто (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/981977)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)авто (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/982297)Warn (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/484484)