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View Full Version : EMP......???? Wanted first hand knowledge....?


Sourdough
04-30-2008, 11:22 AM
Does anyone have training in EMP, I am not looking for imported data. I want to know is this a really remote possibility, or probable via natural occurrence, or direct attack. Or is this one more boogyman......? And do small electronics need to be stored in special enclosures like ammo cans....?
DOGMAN
04-30-2008, 11:38 AM
I am feeling pretty dumb here...what does EMP mean?
Sourdough
04-30-2008, 11:46 AM
Electro-Magnetic Pulse.......I did not know about it till three years ago, when my sister started sending me novels about peoples life after EMP. In theory the (our) SUN or a comet passing close to earth could cause an EMP. Also a thermo-nuclear devise set off at high altitude would cause EMP.
klkak
04-30-2008, 11:50 AM
Electro
Magnetic
Pulse
EMP's are real. However I dont feel they are that big of a threat. After all, a microwave oven, Cell phone or Television give off EMP's. But I am no expert by any stretch of the word.
grundle
04-30-2008, 12:00 PM
It is a somewhat negligable threat. If someone utilizes a direct EMP attack on your computer they will ruin it. The problem with that is it has to be a focused and directed "attack". That would require a lot of power and they would have to be close to the unit.

For a wide scale EMP, a nuclear explosion releases a natural EMP as a result which will also destroy any electronics. The shockwave generally does a better job of it though...research has been done that indicates if a nuclear device were detenotaed at a higher altitude then the EMP would be more wide-spread (i.e. - size of a continent). That is really the only major threat that would possibly cause major problems.

For now EMP's arent' much of a threat since they require high power output and it also takes place in a specific frequency so you have to know quite a bit about electronics and wave theory.
Ole WV Coot
04-30-2008, 01:09 PM
Degause everything. The Navy did carriers in WWII by wrapping the ship in cable.
SGTD00m
04-30-2008, 01:20 PM
Hey Hopeak check these 2 articles out on EMPs

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1219/p25s02-stct.html

http://www.doh.wa.gov/ehp/rp/factsheets/factsheets-htm/fs41elecpuls.htm

should make u feel a little better
bulrush
04-30-2008, 02:42 PM
Sun spots routinely cause satellite blackout for a few hours every now and then. Almost all communications goes through satellites: TV shows, radio shows, cell phones, even the internet uses satellites for some connections (we're talking between certain countries, as well as between the regular internet and home connection).

But I never heard of a comet going close to the sun causing an EMP, and I have been reading science mags for 20+ years. If it were true I would have heard about it by now. The mags regularly do an "apocalypse" article once a year. It might cause solar storms/sun spots, which will then cause a temporary communcations blackout (all you would get are radio or TV shows broadcast from your local stations, no national shows).
Alpine_Sapper
04-30-2008, 03:00 PM
Ever seen Fast and the Furious? Remember those little limpet mine looking things the cops shot at the cars to shut down it's electrical system? Same concept. They do exist. Not very widespread, but EMP weapons have been around for a few years, mainly marketed for specific purposes to law enforcement agencies.

They used to use a similar concept in the blackhat world to wipe your data from your drives if you had advance word the feds were coming for you. Datarecovery has advanced to far for it to be effective anymore. They can recover data so deep nowadays even blowing the platters apart won't work.
grundle
04-30-2008, 03:06 PM
Yea but there are two ways you can still defeat that (data recovery that is). You can use active encryption (i.e. all data on your machine is encrypted and only unencrypted when accessed. When it is re-written to disk it is once again encrypted so that nothing on disk is ever in an unencrypted state.) Mostly a unix style system could handle it, Windows is too bloated to even think about doing something like that.

Most of data recovery involves going through "deleted" information on your hard disk. When you delete a file from the hard drive a pointer is simply removed and the operating system is told that the area can now be used to write other data. The data has not been altered or removed at all. It will only be truly erased when a new program writes over it. If you write a program (or use one) that simply makes a file that writes random strings of data to your disk until the disk is full you have erased any hanging bits of data and now all the data has been truly erased.

Just some food for thought, a little off topic for this forum, but interesting nonetheless.
Rick
04-30-2008, 03:20 PM
Hopeak - Here is a thread that was posted earlier.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1983&highlight=Electromagnetic
Alpine_Sapper
04-30-2008, 04:41 PM
Yea but there are two ways you can still defeat that (data recovery that is). You can use active encryption (i.e. all data on your machine is encrypted and only unencrypted when accessed. When it is re-written to disk it is once again encrypted so that nothing on disk is ever in an unencrypted state.) Mostly a unix style system could handle it, Windows is too bloated to even think about doing something like that.

Most of data recovery involves going through "deleted" information on your hard disk. When you delete a file from the hard drive a pointer is simply removed and the operating system is told that the area can now be used to write other data. The data has not been altered or removed at all. It will only be truly erased when a new program writes over it. If you write a program (or use one) that simply makes a file that writes random strings of data to your disk until the disk is full you have erased any hanging bits of data and now all the data has been truly erased.

Just some food for thought, a little off topic for this forum, but interesting nonetheless.

The feds can bust any of the disk encryption programs, and they can recover data that has been, last I checked, overwritten 21 times. Even if you take the drive out and smash it with a sledge hammer, they can still get the data. I have "friends" that have first hand experience. It used to be you only had to overwrite it 7 times.

EDIT: They can even bust programs like pgp or gnuPG. It takes a server farm to crack the algorithm, and it's going to take them a while, but they don't have a problem letting you cool your heels in jail while they do it.
grundle
04-30-2008, 04:48 PM
The feds can bust any of the disk encryption programs, and they can recover data that has been, last I checked, overwritten 21 times. Even if you take the drive out and smash it with a sledge hammer, they can still get the data. I have "friends" that have first hand experience. It used to be you only had to overwrite it 7 times.

EDIT: They can even bust programs like pgp or gnuPG. It takes a server farm to crack the algorithm, and it's going to take them a while, but they don't have a problem letting you cool your heels in jail while they do it.

I find it hard to believe they can bust through a pgp program. Are they basically brute forcing the password key until they get it? That seems to be the only way you can break through that kind of encryption.

As far as busting through overwritten data, I am sorry but that is a myth. Once you have completely overwritten your drive with nonsense that is all that is there. Your friends probably used some crappy program to do it for them that still left hanging sectors, or they used a disk defragmentor which does nothing to remove your data.

Please provide links to that sort of info because I am highly doubtful. Breaking a 256-bit PgP key is on the scale of impossible, so is recovering data that isn't there.
Alpine_Sapper
04-30-2008, 05:05 PM
I find it hard to believe they can bust through a pgp program. Are they basically brute forcing the password key until they get it? That seems to be the only way you can break through that kind of encryption.

As far as busting through overwritten data, I am sorry but that is a myth. Once you have completely overwritten your drive with nonsense that is all that is there. Your friends probably used some crappy program to do it for them that still left hanging sectors, or they used a disk defragmentor which does nothing to remove your data.

Please provide links to that sort of info because I am highly doubtful. Breaking a 256-bit PgP key is on the scale of impossible, so is recovering data that isn't there.

lol. I work in IT and deal with data recovery issues on a semi regular basis. I also do forensics on hacked servers. *shrug* you can believe me or not. Here's some arcticles for ya though:

http://www.itnews.com.au/News/70753,dram-crack-breaks-encryption-software.aspx
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/20/1936257&from=rss
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2078233,00.htm

Now, if a couple of open source geeks can beat a 108 bit key in 2000, what do you think the NSA think tank has done with that in the past 8 years?

As for the "NSA Overwrite Standard", you can believe the data isn't there all day. Personally, I've seen it recovered when the feds come in to prosecute. :)
Here's a pretty good thread on it for ya though:
http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2003/Feb/0025.html

Of course, the NSA is not really all that forthcoming with data on what they can ACTUALLY do, so other than what I've seen and read, it's all speculation. Take your chances as you want, but for me, I believe that encryption is only to keep out the prying eyes of other civilians, and that if the feds want you, they've sniffed your connection long before you can think about overwriting data you've deleted. I've seen server farms setup in datacenters brought in by the suited sunglassed fellas. A little creative editing on the routers and voila, instant sniffer+packet capture. What kinda software you think is running on that farm? Sure ain't a counterstrike server.

Even though this is a thread about EMP's, like you said, this is really off topic for this forum. We should probably move this to pm if you want to discuss it further.
crashdive123
04-30-2008, 05:22 PM
Hopeak - shielding will help against most EMP. The problem that arises is that it is a bit impractical to actually do it. Do you have concerns about specific electronics that you own?
Sourdough
04-30-2008, 05:27 PM
OK, what about the large transformers on the power grid. Not the ones mounted on the utility poles, which I understand to be step down transformers. What about those big GREEN momma's that have 20' high chain link fence.

Is not the sun and the stars really nuclear reactors, and even a burned out star passing some distance from earth could it cause a problem......?
grundle
04-30-2008, 05:31 PM
The earth is protected by its magnetic field. Most of that stuff is filtered out, but the satellites are affected since they have no protection. They are effectively "exposed to the elements"
crashdive123
04-30-2008, 05:34 PM
Large transformers are probably going to go. They can be repaired, but it will take awhile. Don't know about burned out stars, but solar flares will cause alot of disruption. One of the things I worked on in the military were the satellite navigation systems, and when there was high solar activity it made for some long days and nights.
DOGMAN
04-30-2008, 05:52 PM
Luddites of the word unite and commandere this thread! aargh!!!
crashdive123
04-30-2008, 06:12 PM
Luddites of the word unite and commandere this thread! aargh!!!

Fear change from technology?????? Never!!!!
Rick
04-30-2008, 06:21 PM
Hopeak - It can take any of them down. Think of solar flares (EMP) as lightening. You can have all the arresters online you want and it doesn't necessarily mean you can prevent damage caused by it. Electric utility transmission, radio and television transmission and telephone are all at risk. I probably left something out.

Here is a description of what you could see between now and 2012.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/897/
DOGMAN
04-30-2008, 06:27 PM
Fear change from technology?????? Never!!!!

The common modern definition of a Luddite is someone who oppesses technological advances, The "unabomber" is a classic example. Technically, I should have said..."NeoLuddites Unite" Because the Luddites were originally an English group of textile workers- led by Ned Ludd. In the 1800's they'd destroy machinery that was changing their way of life, and phasing them out of jobs.

So, what I meant was "Wilderness Survivalist, lets get together and start talking about staying alive in wild places- so I can join in the conversation";)
Sourdough
04-30-2008, 07:01 PM
Hopeak - It can take any of them down. Think of solar flares (EMP) as lightening. You can have all the arresters online you want and it doesn't necessarily mean you can prevent damage caused by it. Electric utility transmission, radio and television transmission and telephone are all at risk. I probably left something out.

Here is a description of what you could see between now and 2012.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/897/

Wow Thanks, Rick: that was interesting, I like stuff that happened, as apposed to theory.
crashdive123
04-30-2008, 08:51 PM
So, what I meant was "Wilderness Survivalist, lets get together and start talking about staying alive in wild places- so I can join in the conversation";)

You just did.
Sourdough
12-10-2008, 11:42 PM
Here you go.....
A190
12-11-2008, 12:34 AM
Is it real, yes
Has it ever been used as a weapon of war.....no.
how long has this threat existed, since the 70's
I remember the discussion then during the red scare time period. Heck I een bought a second electronic module for my jeep truck. Still have the module, wish I still had the jeep................sigh...................

Everything I read about the device (its an nuclear bomb) set off at high altitude , in theory is supposed to stop all elelctronics................In practice who knows........

Remember Y2K a big nothing..............Theory and practice are to different things..........
Madrox
12-11-2008, 11:49 AM
We did some minor testing of the effect of emp on electric equipment back in highschool. To make this short if you want anything protected it has to be in a lead container or a large amount of concrete or earth. I'd think it would really depend on some more data points like proximity to the center of the emp "explosion" or various other things like what was in between it and the device as well as the thickness of the container. Most of the upper end gun safes would possibly protect items I'd think. But I'm no expert.

I have a spare laptop that I got not too long ago loaded up with some good survival things (recipes, maps, etc) and its stored in a lined gun safe. I'd give it a decent chance of surviving a emp event.

As for data recovery etc that's been mentioned if I took a hammer or torch to a hdd platter and someone could recover data from it I'd be very very very shocked. I usually use killdisk and overwrite the drive to the max times (takes a long time) and if I dont have a use for the drive anymore I put it under a very large magnet for a few days and rotate it every few hours.

If the govt can recover data from a drive thats been sitting under a magnet... that scares me.
rockymtnchief
12-11-2008, 11:57 AM
Keep in mind that if you have an underground bunker made of concrete (or any other material) and have commercial power or phone lines coming in, EMP can still ruin your equipment.
Madrox
12-11-2008, 01:12 PM
Agreed rocky. The equipment I have stored (laptop mainly) for just such a possible occurrence is not only unplugged but has the main and cmos battery removed. Not sure if emp could cause these to overload so i took the precaution anyhow. I am looking for a small solar setup that will charge the battery if need be as well as a makeshift setup to use other batteries to power it. I also have a car battery to 110 converter, which has come in handy over the years for various other uses.
trax
12-11-2008, 01:24 PM
So, I'm having a little difficulty keeping up here. The sun's going to explode and then my cell phone won't work? OK, seems fair, the only technology I'm really concerned about protecting is Dad's still.
Madrox
12-11-2008, 01:55 PM
If the sun doesn't explode then a comet could cause it and if that doesn't happen then a nuke could but there is always the chance of random hit by space radiation which could fry a whole continent or the planet itself.

Or nothing will happen and your cell phone and still will be fine :)
trax
12-11-2008, 02:04 PM
It's the still I need reassuring about.
crashdive123
12-11-2008, 05:13 PM
The still will be fine.
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yellowcab
03-31-2026, 02:51 AM
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yellowcab
03-31-2026, 02:52 AM
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