Forensic Knot Study

[spatio]

I am wondering if there are any knot-tyers here. Attached are 3 photos of a drawstring string on a hoodie that was knotted and used in the commission of a crime. The case has been Officially closed. I am writing a book on it. I would like help identifying the knot-type, characteristics, etc...

[Rick]

You are showing 5 lines of cord. Are two of these in loops? Has the cord been cut? A larger photo showing more area would be helpful.

[jdbushcraft]

I highly doubt you will find a standard knot type. Can't tell much from these pics though as said above.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[spatio]

You are showing 5 lines of cord. Are two of these in loops? Has the cord been cut? A larger photo showing more area would be helpful.

These are the Primary photos, giving a "birds eye view" of its application. The Drawing, the application on the victim, and the photo of the Knot itself (all attached here) are "A View of The Same angle of the Knot". All of the rest of the Photos in this Post are rotations of This Primary View.

Keep in Mind that this string (rope) WAS one Piece originally (the drawstring) of a "Hoodie" Sweatshirt. It appears to have been cut, obviously, one or more times.

I was right on top of this Knot taking photos, and was baffled at its intricacy. I honestly could not tell you how many individual pieces the one Drawstring was cut into, and I was right on top of it. then again, I'm not a Knot person.


thank you so much for your help.

after this post of "the Main Angle", I will post other Photos which are essentially just a "rotation", or different view(s), of this Primary Angle.

Spatio

[spatio]

Here is some more pics, showing a different views of the Knot.

[spatio]

Just a few More

thank you
spatio

[kyratshooter]

Have you considered the probability that that is not a knot, but is a tangle?

I worked in the corrections system for many years and never found a Boy Scout, sailor or knot expert in the bunch.

That looks like an accident that happened to knot, such as would happen with a fumble fingered delinquent at work.

The multiple cutting of the cord was probably done to release the cord from the tangles.

[spatio]

Have you considered the probability that that is not a knot, but is a tangle?

I worked in the corrections system for many years and never found a Boy Scout, sailor or knot expert in the bunch.

That looks like an accident that happened to knot, such as would happen with a fumble fingered delinquent at work.

The multiple cutting of the cord was probably done to release the cord from the tangles.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Thank you for your Input Ky,
I am not sure what you mean by a tangle as opposed to a Knot. I guess you are saying that someone could tie this structure, with two hands, and have applied with such force, by somehow amatuerishly doing it, without much forethought on how to do it?

Also, in terms of Knot Expert, I am not sure I am looking for one. I am just looking for someone who might choose to bind in this manner. The point above might address that as well, if it was indeed a product of "half-hazard" thought.

Thank you for your thoughts!
spatio

[Rick]

I'm no expert but looking through the Ashley Book of Knots it appears it might be a type of bend. I would suggest you contact the International Guild of Knot Tyers. I'm sure someone there can tell you if it's a known knot.

http://www.igkt.net/

[hunter63]

I'm no expert but looking through the Ashley Book of Knots it appears it might be a type of bend. I would suggest you contact the International Guild of Knot Tyers. I'm sure someone there can tell you if it's a known knot.

http://www.igkt.net/

Learned something today....Nice find.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Thank you for your Input Ky,
I am not sure what you mean by a tangle as opposed to a Knot. I guess you are saying that someone could tie this structure, with two hands, and have applied with such force, by somehow amatuerishly doing it, without much forethought on how to do it?

Also, in terms of Knot Expert, I am not sure I am looking for one. I am just looking for someone who might choose to bind in this manner. The point above might address that as well, if it was indeed a product of "half-hazard" thought.

Thank you for your thoughts!
spatio

I gonna say the difference between a tangle and a knot....intent....Or was that what you intended to tie?......Or it just kinda got away from some one...and ended up in what is known as a "snot ball".

Would be nice to untie it,.....seems to be an illusion as there are either one end too many or one end short.....

What is the point of attaching a name to it?

[spatio]

Learned something today....Nice find.



I gonna say the difference between a tangle and a knot....intent....Or was that what you intended to tie?......Or it just kinda got away from some one...and ended up in what is known as a "snot ball".

Would be nice to untie it,.....seems to be an illusion as there are either one end too many or one end short.....

What is the point of attaching a name to it?

Thanks Hunter63,

The Drawstring starts as One, but we ultimately end up with 4 ends, as illustrated. I probably didn't mention that. Perhaps that might help mentally untie it???? Not sure. Just wanting to know if there is indeed any real skill on the part of the tyer, or if it was indeed a "snot ball" :),

thank you,
spatio

[hunter63]

Spent 35 years working in "wire rope" manufacturing....or called 'cable".....by some.
Everything from fishing line size to 6" diameter wire rope for large drag line digging machines.

Part of the job was to "untangle" snot balls that had tangles up for one reason of another....secret is to not cut anything, and it will be tangled for sure.

Still trying to understand what the reason for this attempt to identify a name for this.......Really don't think you have a master knot tier on your hands here.

[kyratshooter]

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Thank you for your Input Ky,
I am not sure what you mean by a tangle as opposed to a Knot. I guess you are saying that someone could tie this structure, with two hands, and have applied with such force, by somehow amatuerishly doing it, without much forethought on how to do it?

Also, in terms of Knot Expert, I am not sure I am looking for one. I am just looking for someone who might choose to bind in this manner. The point above might address that as well, if it was indeed a product of "half-hazard" thought.

Thank you for your thoughts!
spatio

What I am saying is that you are looking at this "knot" as something done purposefully when it is probably an accident and occurred when someone tangled up a bow knot, then cut the string to get it out of the hoodie.

I have seen the same thing dozens of times and the hoodie is usually either thrown n the trash of the string cut and the hoodie used without a drawstring from then on.

A walk through any juvy detention center and a search of the trashcans on a fall or winter day will provide an identical example

[Grizz123]

These are the Primary photos, giving a "birds eye view" of its application. The Drawing, the application on the victim, and the photo of the Knot itself (all attached here) are "A View of The Same angle of the Knot". All of the rest of the Photos in this Post are rotations of This Primary View.

Keep in Mind that this string (rope) WAS one Piece originally (the drawstring) of a "Hoodie" Sweatshirt. It appears to have been cut, obviously, one or more times.

I was right on top of this Knot taking photos, and was baffled at its intricacy. I honestly could not tell you how many individual pieces the one Drawstring was cut into, and I was right on top of it. then again, I'm not a Knot person.


thank you so much for your help.

after this post of "the Main Angle", I will post other Photos which are essentially just a "rotation", or different view(s), of this Primary Angle.

Spatio

What part of the body is that tied around?

Where in the Country did the crime take place? Was it near a boating community or rock climbing community?

Sometimes hoodies have the string sewn in to prevent them from coming out, this would mean that someone would have to pull it tight, cut and then pull the other direction, pull, cut.

I agree with the others, there are knot tying BB's that would be more helpful to you. That being said, keep us updated on what you find.

[richbat]

I'm not exactly sure but from the 1 photo of what looks like a body part,maybe the neck,it appears to be maybe that someone was trying to hurry up and make a cinch knot.

[spatio]

I'm not exactly sure but from the 1 photo of what looks like a body part,maybe the neck,it appears to be maybe that someone was trying to hurry up and make a cinch knot.

I think they were in a hurry. An it was the neck.
Can you you extrapolate on your answer?

thanks
spatio

[richbat]

Well I'll try and explain the best I can.From the drawing on the small loop to the lower right hand side,to me it would appear that the loop was intended for another longer piece of string/cord to go through then cinched tighter after the string/cord was around said persons neck,but like I said to me anyways it looks like it was done in a hurry and very carelessly and it may explain why all the other knots are in the string/cord,whoever did it must have had quite a lot of time in order to finally get one that worked for his/her intended purpose.Hope that helps some but it does look like it was done with several attempts which would explain the other loose ends,failed attempts.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

ценн (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2098)291.5 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/1014)TREA (http://eyesvision.ru)PERF (http://eyesvisions.com)отно (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1253666)Sapi (http://filmzones.ru/t/1230977)газе (http://gadwall.ru/t/1226406)Gold (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1104300)Some (http://gageboard.ru/t/1097032)�туд (http://gagrule.ru/t/1025349)нача (http://gallduct.ru/t/1163964)Clyd (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1552126)Tesc (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1459268)Zdob (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1699278)Куба (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1373670)
рожд (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1085458)Воро (http://gascautery.ru/t/1256453)�а�е (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1308859)Jame (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1304811)XVII (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1251438)Ко�м (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1357375)Френ (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1582496)Жика (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1243283)Yosh (http://geartreating.ru/t/1210597)West (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1198095)Хрущ (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1328350)Кучи (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1345987)ATTO (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1528922)��ро (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1294814)Лиел (http://getthebounce.ru/t/891295)
�зык (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1247794)Воло (http://habituate.ru/t/1228143)Грач (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1212792)XVII (http://hackworker.ru/t/1385103)Поно (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1104890)West (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1198125)Чере (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1239958)Sylv (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1135498)Озер (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1251266)Сафр (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1327950)Rona (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1048648)Ямщи (http://haltstate.ru/t/1049812)Петр (http://handcoding.ru/t/1245035)Domi (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1664448)Лифа (http://handradar.ru/t/959674)
У�ан (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1225074)Labo (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1145029)худо (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1042195)Micr (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/823296)Ялпа (http://hardasiron.ru/t/838604)Robe (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1022474)Igor (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1050301)Воро (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1077280)Geor (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1256526)ELEG (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547696)ELEG (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1480162)ELEG (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547745)Dese (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1552754)Side (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1202245)Circ (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1547096)
биол (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1183195)John (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/807095)Lill (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/911810)Юрки (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1376560)Will (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/849325)Лаге (http://jobstress.ru/t/1228154)Sisi (http://jogformation.ru/t/1141898)Ð*ома (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1198471)(195 (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1224423)(194 (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1353827)коÑ�м (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1221932)Pros (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1181078)Eleg (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182585)карм (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1187951)Sela (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180737)
ELEG (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181811)Фоми (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/838653)Eleg (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1187800)Glob (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1189391)Маль (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1003188)�лек (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/836990)ELEG (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181610)Zone (http://kickplate.ru/t/1549854)унив (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1375709)Giul (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1134433)When (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1507367)чино (http://kinozones.ru/film/4546)Конд (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1239671)Маль (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1308726)Circ (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711411)
Кара (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1245186)иллю (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1244679)Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1548971)Ибра (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1375760)Zone (http://laborracket.ru/t/1549595)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1549246)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1548934)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1191293)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1189923)Zone (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1189605)Ð*ожа (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1328590)03-1 (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1194428)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192674)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190946)Ñ�ере (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192614)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192700)3094 (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1194433)Barb (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1378749)West (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1198163)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185744)Naso (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1187176)Zone (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189743)Бал� (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1564783)хар- (http://landreform.ru/t/1187617)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185979)Mark (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1219642)у�то (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161276)наза (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1162960)ме�� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/502)Мей� (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590715)

[yellowcab]

bric (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178707)Ardo (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451573)Прои (http://layabout.ru/shop/452823)Якер (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/263819)Кир� (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105900)Firs (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/465543)Coto (http://leaveword.ru/shop/465573)пла� (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/195594)7870 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/575055)чита (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/266526)Adam (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268528)Foot (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/556431)Mati (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/471659)Infi (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/160319)VALG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/614048)
Choe (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/598566)здор (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2126)Japa (http://mp3lists.ru/item/4282)Ubis (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1041888)мене (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/106298)�иза (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461577)рабо (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1040873)на�т (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/486948)Tran (http://navelseed.ru/shop/101413)Mits (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455157)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/176601)Jewe (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/506924)Wind (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/616002)Glam (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/109340)Hyun (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97531)
Turb (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98745)Aqua (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570580)Adva (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/1149759)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148606)газе (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/202615)Ð�едо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/149283)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/579511)Глуш (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/581579)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/683823)инÑ�Ñ‚ (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/683160)TUS- (http://palmberry.ru/shop/578564)Сури (http://papercoating.ru/shop/583287)Степ (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/688708)ISCO (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1168085)Ящен (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1168087)
Тютю (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1167117)Горч (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1172094)Карн (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1540227)Joha (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1421078)XVII (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/595671)Stop (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/597845)Mari (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1072068)Mike (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1073427)Lill (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/323359)KMFD (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/509960)Собо (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/518046)ру�� (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/516926)Love (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/903815)Come (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1078986)го�у (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/321982)
Bran (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513604)Sean (http://rearchain.ru/shop/641609)Bryn (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/614678)Jean (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/918364)Черн (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1054273)Коле (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1062981)авто (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1680291)Кули (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693463)Клем (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1760745)460- (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1217640)Перо (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1816758)Brun (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1055267)Lock (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1323574)Пику (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1856636)Сучк (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1470005)
Горь (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1492927)Кони (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1464396)заве (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1494404)Stev (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1533484)Добу (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1407262)Jani (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1487242)Micr (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/327614)Голу (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/400035)худо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/401058)У�тю (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1686420)ме�� (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/502)ме�� (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/502)ме�� (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/502)утен (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/483223)Hein (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/490682)
Смир (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/498638)�тор (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/483516)Tiin (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/487997)Горл (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/499414)Kenn (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1822042)Кузн (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1880724)Susi (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/733637)Elen (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/747316)Крав (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/401071)Кочу (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/980629)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)хоро (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/981293)Гера (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/483611)