The Perfect CCW Weapon

[Rick]

I have no doubt that this subject is going to be a lot like the perfect knife. But I'm looking for some input from those of you that carry. My CCW is an H&R .32 wheel gun but I can't find a holster that fits the H&R comfortably (it's not a popular caliber) and the .32 is a little light in stopping power. So I'm in the market.

I looked at the Beretta Cougar in .45 but they no longer make it so I will be stuck with a used, which I don't like, or a new in box for which I'll pay a premium I'm sure.

I would prefer something in .45 or even .40 because I want to have the final say in things and not stand around and discuss it by using a lighter caliber. I've looked at the Colt Combat Commander and Glock 23 both of which seem to fit the bill. However, I'm heavily leaning toward the Springfield XD 45.

I'll talk with a gunsmith and handle each one before I buy, of course, but would like some input for those of you that carry.

The other part of this is the saddle. I prefer to carry Inside the Waist Band (IBW) so if you have a preference on holsters I'd like to hear that, too.

[Stony]

I dare ask why anyone would need to cc?
most of cc's don't have the guts to actualy shoot after the draw.
is it not high time to strike cc of the books?

[Rick]

Right. Whatever. If you can't contribute to the post why bother?

[rebel]

Any of those you listed would be great. They are proven designs and have reliable performance.

[rebel]

I dare ask why anyone would need to cc?
most of cc's don't have the guts to actualy shoot after the draw.
is it not high time to strike cc of the books?

Do you carry around a 5 gallon bucket of sand?

[Alpine_Sapper]

I personally prefer the .40 to the .45. I have a shooting buddy at work that is the exact opposite. I don't have a problem with the .45 or course, but when doing some reading on Wikipedia I found the following which prompted me to seriously check out the .40. After shooting several models I never looked back.
-------------------------
The energy of the .40 S&W exceeds all standard-pressure and +P 9x19mm Parabellum loadings and many standard-pressure .45 ACP rounds, generating between 450 and 600 foot-pounds (550 J and 800 J) of energy, depending on bullet weight, with mid to high 500 foot-pounds typical. Both the .40 S&W and the 9 mm Parabellum operate at a 35,000 psi (240 MPa) SAAMI maximum, compared to a 21,000 psi (150 MPa) maximum for .45 ACP[9]. Some small ammunition manufacturers offer .40 S&W ammunition consistently developing energy well above 500 ft·lbf (700 J) in all their .40 S&W ammo as off-the-shelf items.[10]. While SAAMI has not established a +P standard for the .40 S&W, there are companies marketing ammunition claimed to be +P, but they do not provide pressure data to support +P labeling.

The .40 S&W is considered by some[citation needed] the best cartridge for law enforcement use available today, combining superior stopping power when using expanding ammunition and manageable recoil in a package that remains compact, even when using a double-stack magazine.
---------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

[Rick]

That is interesting. I had always considered the .40 to be in between the .45 and the 9mm.

[rebel]

Just another drive-by shooting post.

I use the H&K USP compact in 40 cal. I've put thousands of rounds through it without a single malfunction. The one thing about it that feels uncomfortable is the mag release. The release is not the push button that we learned on and takes some getting used to. You also have to watch your magazine shoe plate. If the shoe plate is not on the mag correctly it will not fit into the weapon.

I used to carry a Gov 45. It was a great weapon. Just heavy.

So, I like the polymer framed autos for the weight.

I've heard the glocks are nice. A friend of mine swears by his 357 sig.

I hope this helps.

[Sourdough]

You will still get 800 strongly held opinions, but all holsters suck if you carry enough hours per day. PERIOD. Some are much better than others, but they all are uncomfortable if you wear them long enough. The heavier the carry firearm, the more uncomfortable the carry experience will be. The best is a 11.5 oz. to a 14 oz. wheel gun in .38 +P or if you can afford it just get the .357 mag. and have the option.

The number one choice "if" it is free is the S&W model 340, $1,019.- list price. However I changed the grip, as that so called boot grip is to small for my hand.

The bottom line is that there is no perfect carry gun. That is why I have 11 carry (Hand) guns, and a box full of holsters. Some days I like the 10 MM Kimber, and some day I just drop the .44 spl. Bull pup pug in my back pocket.

If you have a "COP'SHOP" near where you live, I would talk with them.

There is no answer.

What is interesting is how many people, have a altercation, and totally forgot they were backing.

Somehow I think I was not much help. But the thread will be lively.

[Buddha443556]

When I had my CCW permit I carried a S&W .357 686 or 45 ACP in a shoulder holster, being big I could get away with this. Those are not a light weapon, but that didn't bother me and I did carry for about a decade every day. IWB? Do you wear suspenders? Something light like a Glock sounds better to me maybe in a 40.

[Sourdough]

I dare ask why anyone would need to cc?
most of cc's don't have the guts to actualy shoot after the draw.
is it not high time to strike cc of the books?

One way to find out if someone has guts to actually shoot after the draw. Do you feel lucky.....?

[Rick]

No suspenders but I'm a good sized kid. My main concern is summer clothes (probably everyones). I like shorts and a T shirt in the summer for casual, which isn't bad. The T-shirt on the outside does a nice job concealing but you can get some grip outline. Casual dress clothes are the pits unless it's a pull over. Dress shirts force me to leave the weapon at home, which defeats the whole purpose. Hiking is no problem. I can use a concealment butt pack.

[Rick]

I would never pull a weapon unless my intent was to use it. The only time it would show is if I truly believed my family or I was in peril. And you can bet your sweet azz I'd use it. In a heart beat.

[Sourdough]

No suspenders but I'm a good sized kid. My main concern is summer clothes (probably everyones). I like shorts and a T shirt in the summer for casual, which isn't bad. The T-shirt on the outside does a nice job concealing but you can get some grip outline. Casual dress clothes are the pits unless it's a pull over. Dress shirts force me to leave the weapon at home, which defeats the whole purpose. Hiking is no problem. I can use a concealment butt pack.

Can we say: Summer gun, and a different Winter gun. Fanny packs work, but everyone knows the only reason to wear a fanny pack is to hide a gun.

I got to wonder if everyone was required to wear a firearm fully exposed, everyone, everywhere, every place outside their home. Would crime go down?

[Sourdough]

How many states other than Alaska do "NOT" require a permit to carry concealed....?

[Tahyo]

I live in Illinois and we don't have a ccw. Illinois and Wisconsin are the last two holdouts. Due to the strong liberal weinees here, it's doubtful we'll ever see it. I'd like to though.

Rick, not sure this will do you any good, but here's a link to a cr@p load of links for holster manufacturers. There are a lot of crappy ones in there, but I did manage to find a few decent ones. The link says "Beretta" and that's because I found it on a Beretta forum.

http://www.berettaforum.net/vb/showthread.php?t=27864

[Chuck]

I think Vermont is the only other one.

[Rick]

Here's a link to CCW laws by state:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

Great link, Tahyo. I bookmarked that one! Thanks.

[Sourdough]

[QUOTE=Tahyo;43274]I live in Illinois and we don't have a ccw. Illinois and Wisconsin are the last two holdouts. Due to the strong liberal weinees here, it's doubtful we'll ever see it. I'd like to though.


Tahyo, NO.......What I mean is every body can Carry "without" a permit, "we don't need no stinking permit's".

[Tahyo]

[QUOTE=Tahyo;43274]I live in Illinois and we don't have a ccw. Illinois and Wisconsin are the last two holdouts. Due to the strong liberal weinees here, it's doubtful we'll ever see it. I'd like to though.


Tahyo, NO.......What I mean is every body can Carry "without" a permit, "we don't need no stinking permit's".

Are you talking about the way some here in Illinois carry in a specific kind of pouch?

[Sourdough]

[QUOTE=hopeak;43279]

Are you talking about the way some here in Illinois carry in a specific kind of pouch?


No....we had a CCW permit system. The Governor said. By executive order: Everyone over 21 can carry concealed, period. the only exception is convicted felons. They have to carry illegally.....:eek:

[Tahyo]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you hopeak, please forgive. Here in Illinois we have to have a freaking "FOID" card (firearm owner's identification card) to own a weapon. We can not ccw, legally. There is a way around it that is questionable, in which there is a special pouch that has a place to carry the magazine and a place to carry the weapon. Personally I'm not willing to test that way of doing it. There are occasional times when I will carry when I have to go do work in bad neighborhoods, but that's not too often.

[Sourdough]

We have no Cards and we have no Permits, and anyone who is 21 year old, and not a convicted felon can carry concealed, Period. It is called being FREE to be a responsible person.

[Tahyo]

We have no Cards and we have no Permits, and anyone who is 21 year old, and not a convicted felon can carry concealed, Period. It is called being FREE to be a responsable person.

Sure wished that was true here.

[Rick]

Hopeak, is a background check needed in AK to purchase?

The only requirement for Indiana's CCW is just ask. You have a couple of different options like personal protection or for hunting (you can carry while hunting if you have a personal protection permit). Get your little pinkies inked, do a background check and it's yours. Oh, yea....pay your yen.

[Sourdough]

Hopeak, is a background check needed in AK to purchase?

The only requirement for Indiana's CCW is just ask. You have a couple of different options like personal protection or for hunting (you can carry while hunting if you have a personal protection permit). Get your little pinkies inked, do a background check and it's yours. Oh, yea....pay your yen.

The short answer is: NO. If you buy 5 handguns at one time there is a special form. and if you buy more than 10 handguns at one time the FFL dealer has to call the FBI office. (this is a issue for me as I sometimes have a lot of handguns on consignment at the dealer for sale, and if I pick them all up at one time, they call the FBI).

But if you are a Alaska resident buying one or four handguns from a FFL dealer you need proof of address, it can be a letter mailed to you, drivers lic. car registration, etc. (Remember lots of people live where there is no road, and don't need a drivers lic.

You still fill out the Federal form, (and lie that you are not crazy), pay for the gun only, and leave the store with the gun at the time you buy it.

[Tahyo]

Here in Illinois it's a 3 day wait on handguns, 24 hours on long guns, plus your FOID card and they check with the FBI.

[Alpine_Sapper]

Hopeak, is a background check needed in AK to purchase?

The only requirement for Indiana's CCW is just ask. You have a couple of different options like personal protection or for hunting (you can carry while hunting if you have a personal protection permit). Get your little pinkies inked, do a background check and it's yours. Oh, yea....pay your yen.

Not so sure I like that idea, nor Alaska's. I mean, they do a background check here, fingerprints, fee, and oh yeah, a written test, and the best part, a qualification. :) I've seen guys pass everything only to FAIL at the range. I personally believe if you can't hit what your aiming at you should NOT be allowed to carry a concealed weapon. But then again, those are probably the guys that shoot off their toes practicing quick draw.

[Sourdough]

The whole thing is STUPID. I have tables at nearly every gun show. (I am not a FFL Lic. Dealer) So I can sell to anyone who is not talking crazy about killing someone. They give me money, I give them the gun, no questions, no forms. It is totally legal.

I was just looking at the murders in Alaska in 2007, and about 30% were with a kitchen knife. It will be 50% this year as a 17 year old in Sitka, Alaska killed 4 or 5 family members with a knife. Maybe we should require permits for kitchen knives.

[Alpine_Sapper]

The whole thing is STUPID. I have tables at nearly every gun show. (I am not a FFL Lic. Dealer) So I can sell to anyone who is not talking crazy about killing someone. They give me money, I give them the gun, no questions, no forms. It is totally legal.

I was just looking at the murders in Alaska in 2007, and about 30% were with a kitchen knife. It will be 50% this year as a 17 year old in Sitka, Alaska killed 4 or 5 family members with a knife. Maybe we should require permits for kitchen knives.

*shrug* to each his own. I'm sure the population density of Alaska probably has something to do with it.

And I can still go to a gun show and buy a gun the same way. Same if I buy a gun from a friend. However, to get a CCW license, you have to show some RESPONSIBILITY.

I also feel somewhat secure in knowing that if I'm someplace, and something goes down, and Billy decides to be a hero and skin leather with that smoke iron, I won't get shot cause he's PROVEN he can HIT WHAT HE AIMS AT.

If you guys want to keep giving anyone a gun, go for it. I just don't agree with it.

[Rick]

Alpine - The only difference for us is the qualifications. They do a criminal and crazy background check. The criminals don't even have to ask and they pay less than wholesale.:mad:

[Alpine_Sapper]

Alpine - The only difference for us is the qualifications. They do a criminal and crazy background check. The criminals don't even have to ask and they pay less than wholesale.:mad:

lol. yup yup. The only state I KNOW does a qual test is Texas. But hey, look at it this way, if you jump through their hoops and pay a little more, it saves you getting a felony conviction for illegally carrying a weapon with a body or two attributed to it. Then you get a murder investigation and all kinds of stuff. :) I think I'd rather give'em my finger prints and take their tests than do 25 to life.

[Ole WV Coot]

Rick, sorry about the Cougar 45, it's a sweet carry gun. I have handguns 22 cal to 44mag this is how I carry:Normally-Cougar '45 IWB, S&W Mod 60 '38 cal first up handloaded snake shot., IWB, Walther PPK/S 380-suit & tie or real warm weather IWB, beach(walking only)- Beretta mod 25, 22LR fits in pocket of trunks. Hunt-22 or 22mag Rugers, 357 Blackhawk, 44mag Redhawk. 41cal-don't know why I keep it, 40cal compact Beretta Cougar(never fired, don't like 40), couple of 9mm don't like except for high cap. 45, 38, 380 I use Federal Personal Defense loads. To Stony ( who wants to do away with 2nd Amendment) I have carried concealed well over 40 yrs, never pulled my gun. One thing to remember lots of folks on this forum have used weapons on men before and not for fun probably starting with Korea. If we are forced to pull a weapon it will be used, wouldn't carry dead weight around. At my age my preferred weapon is my cane(walking stick) and it can be deadly also. Some folks, even an old f@@@ like me can kill with other things or nothing. Best think before you decide that old man won't pull the trigger.

[Rick]

I guess the old man remark is really why I'm looking for some heftier fire power. When I was younger I didn't worry too much about stuff. Could handle myself through most things. Now days, I'm a stone's throw from over the hill and the arthritis probably already hurts worse than any beating I'd take. But folks today don't fight any more. They seem to think a gun is the answer for everything.

[Alpine_Sapper]

I guess the old man remark is really why I'm looking for some heftier fire power. When I was younger I didn't worry too much about stuff. Could handle myself through most things. Now days, I'm a stone's throw from over the hill and the arthritis probably already hurts worse than any beating I'd take. But folks today don't fight any more. They seem to think a gun is the answer for everything.

Well sure, we're taught that in school.

Teacher: Ok class, what's 6+6? Suzy?
Suzy: 12.
Teacher: 12 what?
Suzy: guage.
Teacher: Correct. Now, what's 5+4? Johnny?
Johnny: 9 milllie.
Teacher: Very good.

[Rick]

That's pretty cute. I like that.

[Tahyo]

At this age I'm paying for the sins of my youth. More aches and pains than I care to yap about. I'm being constantly reminded by my wife when I come across inconsiderate idiots, that the asses I once was able to kick, will more than likely kick mine.
We are cautious about where we go, specifically the local mall which on the weekends is a gangbangers paradise. It's unfortunate that law abiding people in an area like where we live have to adjust their lives around potential problems.
As much as I would like to ccw, our laws won't permit it and I just can't afford to have to defend myself in a court of law if caught carrying one illegally. I do carry a can of pepper spray and have never had to use it, nor do I ever wish to. I'd rather it be my pistol, but sometimes avoiding trouble is a good prevention too.

[Rick]

Oh, not sometimes. It's the BEST tool you have. Everything else, hands, knives, guns, bazookas come after you've failed at avoidance.

[Tahyo]

Oh, not sometimes. It's the BEST tool you have. Everything else, hands, knives, guns, bazookas come after you've failed at avoidance.

uh..yea that too... After a night of nursing pork and a day of eating it till the smoke is coming out my pores, my sentence structure, which usually sucks anyway, sucks more today. :)

[Rick]

The sucking sound you hear is your body trying to pull the pork closer I'm sure.

[Alpine_Sapper]

not having to remember which way to push or pull a button on one of many guns we own in a situation where my brain goes blank, is a must.

glock came out with 45GAP.

The actions for your piece should be so familiar to you that they're muscle memory. If they're not, you need so spend more time putting rounds downrange. And glock has a 40 as well.

[Rick]

I've looked at the 17, 19, 21 and 22 but I'm not a 9mm lover. The Illinois State Police carried 9mm when I lived there and they all complained about it. I was a bit surprised the the US Army went with the M9. The .45 has been around for so long and been battle tested in every environment. It just works and my mind is wrapped around that.

[Arkansas_Ranger]

Right. Whatever. If you can't contribute to the post why bother?

LMAO, Rick, I was thinking that too.

[Arkansas_Ranger]

Rick, maybe I can help since this is one of my particular areas of interest. Sadly, there is no "perfect" CCW gun. Many factors influence what one will carry including...
1. Your size...can you hide it?
2. The cost...can you afford it?
3. The caliber...will it stop the assailant?
4. The manner in which you want to conceal it.
5. The comfort of the carry...will you carry it once you have it...

There are others, but they pop out at me. I have a Kel-Tec P32 .32 ACP with a pocket holster that I tuck away when I'm out and about. Past that I have other pistols that I pick and choose from depending on where I'm going and what I'm going to do. As an officer, I can carry in all 50 states, yet I don't live by that. I really don't feel the need to have a pistol with me all the time, but because I can - I do. I got a concealed handgun license here in Arkansas about a year or so before I got into LE.

Rick, consider the above factors that I mentioned. I am an ardent proponent of Glocks for a host of reasons. I can testify that all of the .40 calibers are excellent guns. I've never even handled their 9mm versions, but I have complete trust in them. Their .45 ACP models are also terriffic and so much so that we just switched from .40's to .45's. I feel the 10mm and .357 Sig rounds are unnecessary and often difficult to locate. I like being able to walk into the local WalMart and get ammo if I want it.

If you want something to conceal the "baby Glocks" are concealable, however, there are many guns that are much smaller on the market. The Sig P229 is also popular in professional circles where gun carrying is a must. At this moment I am wearing a .40 Glock 23 on my belt beneath an untucked polo shirt. Why? I was out driving around in my patrol Jeep which I won't be caught in without a gun due to presence of blue lights and other "hey I'm a cop" features.

If I were you I'd stick with .38, .40, .45, or 9mm. Try the Kahr brand. They're coming out with some good products in small sizes, and many are turning to the Springfield XD series. A month ago I shot qualifications with about four other rangers, and I was the only one with an automatic. The others were shooting subcompact .38 Spcls. They're still popular although I highly recommend "hammerless" if you're going to get one. If you've got anything more specific I can help with let me know. I'll be in the mountains most of this week away from the computer probably, but I love to talk this talk.

Think about your typical manner of dress then consider exactly where you can conceal your gun. I hate ankle holsters and think they're stupid although many love them. After you have determined each of the locations where you can put your gun in a hidden manner start looking into models. If you find something you think you can conceal then I suggest getting the biggest caliber you can shoot in it.

My $0.02.

[Arkansas_Ranger]

I personally prefer the .40 to the .45. I have a shooting buddy at work that is the exact opposite. I don't have a problem with the .45 or course, but when doing some reading on Wikipedia I found the following which prompted me to seriously check out the .40. After shooting several models I never looked back.
-------------------------
The energy of the .40 S&W exceeds all standard-pressure and +P 9x19mm Parabellum loadings and many standard-pressure .45 ACP rounds, generating between 450 and 600 foot-pounds (550 J and 800 J) of energy, depending on bullet weight, with mid to high 500 foot-pounds typical. Both the .40 S&W and the 9 mm Parabellum operate at a 35,000 psi (240 MPa) SAAMI maximum, compared to a 21,000 psi (150 MPa) maximum for .45 ACP[9]. Some small ammunition manufacturers offer .40 S&W ammunition consistently developing energy well above 500 ft·lbf (700 J) in all their .40 S&W ammo as off-the-shelf items.[10]. While SAAMI has not established a +P standard for the .40 S&W, there are companies marketing ammunition claimed to be +P, but they do not provide pressure data to support +P labeling.

The .40 S&W is considered by some[citation needed] the best cartridge for law enforcement use available today, combining superior stopping power when using expanding ammunition and manageable recoil in a package that remains compact, even when using a double-stack magazine.
---------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W


The .40 S&W is popular in law enforcement. I've worked for three agencies that issued them. I have qualified as an expert with a .40 every time I have ever had to qualify, and I have my own personal .40 weapons. I love the round.

The .45 ACP is viewed, however, by many as the best man-stopping pistol cartridge ever developed, yet in recent years the .45 has been overlooked due to limitations in magazine capacity such as with 1911 frames and even Sig Sauers. The .45 Glocks are meaty, yet the weight of them eliminates a lot of barrel rise while the recoil isn't much more than with the .40.

Why am I stating this? I don't know. Bored maybe... :o

[Alpine_Sapper]

I hate ankle holsters and think they're stupid although many love them.


imho ankle holsters are great, but not for your primary carry. typically to hard to get to. however, if you're in a situation where you're going to be carrying a primary and a "holdout", an ankle holster is a good way to avoid having two handguns bulking up your torso.

[Sam]

Rick, I think the rules of shooting and real estate are similar. Location, Location, Location.
I have used various calibers in my time, and I like all of them. I don't carry a pistol because work in a place that serves booze. I have used the 9mm a lot all over the world. You might look at Glaser Safety Slugs for what ever you decide on. They hit hard and don't pass thru a person. I shot a 'target' in the gulf with a 9mm from 15' and the wound looked like I used a .410 on him. Just remember to get a weapon that you can shoot well. Ergonomics and all that. It sounds like you are a used to wheel guns, why not look at the Ruger sp101 in .357? 5 shots in stainless with rubber grips. very compact. Well I will shut up now. I hope this helps.

[Rick]

All great advice and I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. I'm going today to a gun shop and "feel" what they have. Thanks!!

[Arkansas_Ranger]

imho ankle holsters are great, but not for your primary carry. typically to hard to get to. however, if you're in a situation where you're going to be carrying a primary and a "holdout", an ankle holster is a good way to avoid having two handguns bulking up your torso.

Oh, I know, but the weight of the gun hanging on the end of your leg is just too akward for me to ever get used to.

[crashdive123]

RicK - the XD 45 is a good choice as well as the 40. I carry both. My XD 40 is the sub compact that comes with a shor (7 round) and extended mag. the extended mag is more comfortable in my hand (place for my pinkie) but the 7 round mag makes concealment easier depending on your method.

As far as concealment - I use several methods depending on what I'm wearing and doing. Fanny pack, Thunderwear, pager holster, shoulder bag. I'll snap some pics when I get a chance.

[Rick]

That would be excellent. Thanks. Holsters are like your favorite knife. They either fit or they don't.

[Chris]

I've got a little sw 357 j frame with a shrouded hammer.

[Aurelius95]

As a guy who doesn't own a gun, I was just wondering how much you are planning on paying for a handgun. I've enjoyed reading this thread, but have very limited knowledge and honestly, I find the all the numbers/lettering very confusing.

Anyway, when you make a decision, post some pics please.

[beerrunner13]

A lot of good advice here and like a knife it comes down to what works for you. I like wheel guns myself and it varies what I carry depending on what I am wearing but the one that always goes with me is a Bond 45 derringer. I can slip it in my posket or waist band and no body is any the wiser, I used to put a 410 shell in one barrel and a slug in .45 round in the other back when I was driveing a cab. Not all that accurate but iat the range I was designed for it would make quite a mess. Only had to pull it out one time on a drunk that had a knife but it was right there when I needed it, and yes he sat down and waited for the police to get there.

[Rick]

I'm a wheel gun man myself. I've always considered them "better" because they have less moving parts. Less things to go awry when you need it. However, I decided I'd go with an auto this time. And I made the leap. I bought the Springfield XD 45. I got the 4 inch service model. It comes with two 13 round clips. I'll post some pics when it comes in, which should be Thursday or Friday.

Aurelius - The base price was $539.99 and after Gov. Mitch added his share it was $577. 79. It comes with a carry case, holster, two clips and a thumb guard (?) I found some on the net for $466 but by the time you throw in shipping and a local FFL shop fee it was the same price. I found a few for quite a bit more.

That old Enfield .303 was still there with a tag of $299 on it and he wouldn't budge on the price. I tried to wheel and deal with him but he just pointed to the tag. It's still in his shop. I told him it had been there so long he'd have to pay it a pension but he wouldn't budge. Oh, well. There's one out there with my name on it.

[crashdive123]

Rick – Here are some concealed carry options pictured below.

First pic:

On the left – shoulder holster for large cal revolver (Super Redhawk w/scope pictured)
Moving right – Thunder Wear – will hold small/med/large frames (XD40 sub compact pictured)
Staying on top row – chest band with left and right carry (S&W Sigma 9mm pictured)
Moving down – two leather inside the waistband holsters
Moving left – Ankle holster (Beretta 380 pictured)
Moving down and left – Another ankle option (S&W Sigma 40 pictured)
Moving right – Fanny pack (XD45 pictured)
Moving up – leather inside the waist holster w/cell phone clip upper (Ruger 9mm pictured)
All the way to the right – another shoulder option (Taurus 9mm pictured)

Second pic:

Here’s another look at the weapons sans holsters

Third pic:

And again

[Rick]

Thanks, Crash!! A lot of options. I appreciate you taking the time to take the pics!!!!!!!

[Ole WV Coot]

The best carry rig is the one you make yourself. Very simple to make, and you can modify it for yourself. For instance a '45 carry rig using two squares of leather with the gun wet formed on the side next to the body can be made to fit exactly where comfort and availability is #1. If it ain't comfy you ain't gonna wear it. I know men that carry with safety off and empty chamber. I carry one in the pipe and safety on. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot, safety can be knocked off with draw. Don't try Weaver or any 2 hand stance, by the time you try to line up the sights it's too late. Use front site only. 10 to 15yds is a good practice range. Slow & smooth, speed will come with practice. I fired 50 rds per day for years and consider myself about average. Takes a while to train the muscles to work with the eyes. I can get your shirt button at 15yds, don't shoot as much now but still fire all I reload.

[Rick]

The Springfield XD is like the Glock (Why am I telling you what you already know?). There is a grip and trigger safety rather than a thumb safety. I should be able to carry one in the chamber because it can't be fired unless both are squeezed, which you do when you fire it.

[Rick]

Here is another link to state by state laws on carrying a handgun. I didn't realize it (actually never thought about it) but my permit (Indiana) allows both concealed and open carry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Indiana

[trax]

Rick, I don't know a heck of a lot about handguns, but I figure, you know your basics and what you're comfortable with, all I can say is....if you have to shoot someone, you don't want him to be still standing there when you're done. Lotsa good .45ACP's out there.

[Ole WV Coot]

Rick, I don't know a heck of a lot about handguns, but I figure, you know your basics and what you're comfortable with, all I can say is....if you have to shoot someone, you don't want him to be still standing there when you're done. Lotsa good .45ACP's out there.

45ACP is one you can count on. Nothing like a big chunk of lead to get attention. My favorite and one that I don't think can be beat. Newer ain't always better. I carry a Beretta 45 but I guess somebody's pocket got lined to push the Beretta 92F on the military. High cap mags I guess and the 9 is ok but in the states I don't plan on needing 30 rounds, If I do I shouldn't be carrying. Just my opinion.

[rebel]

Good for you! I like it. It's a mans gun. I'll quote the Commandant of the Marine Corps from back in the day when others were going to the 9mm: "We're staying with the 45. You can hit them in the finger and knock them down".

[Alpine_Sapper]

45ACP is one you can count on. Nothing like a big chunk of lead to get attention. My favorite and one that I don't think can be beat. Newer ain't always better. I carry a Beretta 45 but I guess somebody's pocket got lined to push the Beretta 92F on the military. High cap mags I guess and the 9 is ok but in the states I don't plan on needing 30 rounds, If I do I shouldn't be carrying. Just my opinion.

Same reason they use the 5.56 round in the standard issue weapon instead of the 7.62. American military doctrine says if you kill a soldier, it takes one out of the fight. If you wound a soldier, it takes three out of the fight. The one you wounded, and the two buddies that have to carry him off the field. It would be a great concept if it wasn't flat wrong, imho.

[Rick]

Interesting. Also the Japanese doctrine during WWII according to an uncle that served in the Pacific Theater as a Marine. Also one of the reasons they went to a wooden bullet in the Arisaka 99 rifles. He was wounded with one.

[Alpine_Sapper]

Interesting. Also the Japanese doctrine during WWII according to an uncle that served in the Pacific Theater as a Marine. Also one of the reasons they went to a wooden bullet in the Arisaka 99 rifles. He was wounded with one.

Wow. Talk about a huge freakin' splinter.

[Rick]

He was wounded three times. Twice with lead and once with wood. He said the wood was by far the worst just because it lob lollied and splattered when it hit. As I understand it those wooden bullets would burn up before they made 100 yards so the optimum range was about 30 yards or so on them. All my info is second hand by the way, from him.

[Sam]

He was wounded three times. Twice with lead and once with wood. He said the wood was by far the worst just because it lob lollied and splattered when it hit. As I understand it those wooden bullets would burn up before they made 100 yards so the optimum range was about 30 yards or so on them. All my info is second hand by the way, from him.

Rick, I think the Germans and the Japanese used wooden bullets because of resource problems (no lead) we had a wooden 'sentry' round that would wound a person as well as make noise. If the shot was taken in error (bad light, did not know any thing about base ball etc.) then it was'nt as bad as killing them.

[Rick]

Could be, Sam. I know both used wooden rounds for training. Some of those still exist. Thanks!!

[Rick]

Well, it finally came in. I said I'd post a pic so here it is. This is the Springfield XD .45 4" Service Model with the 13 shot clip.

[crashdive123]

It's a nice weapon. I think you're going to like it.

[Rick]

I'm heading to the range later today. We'll see.

[Ole WV Coot]

13 rounds of 45 should hold you, no need for an extra mag to carry. It looks like a nice pistol, haven't had a chance to try one yet but I will. Can't beat the 45 in my modest opinion.

[trax]

Looks like an excellent choice to me Rick. Can I have it? (Figured it worked for klkak the other day, so what the h***:D)

[grundle]

I have a springfield 1911 .45 that is just the sweetest shooter I have ever had. It is by far the most accurate hand-gun I have, but I am still trying to figure out how to conceal it effectively :(

If I get in a tough spot that is the first gun I would think of. I went through the CCW "training class" that they make us all take here in Kansas and outshot my pop, who is a qualified expert from SF (Special Forces). He was 2 parts irritated and 1 part proud :P I attribute it to the gun, he let me shoot his sig sauer .45 and I couldn't hit anything either o.O

[canid]

yeah coot; i always figured if you got problems two 6rnd magazines won't get you out of then magazine capacity isn't your issue and it may be time to try diplomacy :D

[Rick]

I went to the range today and that new gun must need to be broken in. Either that or it needs more range time. It doesn't shoot very well. There are supposed to be holes in the target after you get done shooting aren't there?:o

[trax]

Well as long as there aren't any holes in other range users or employees, you're doing ok. Oftentimes, where there aren't holes is every bit as important as where there are. You can trust me on this, and does anyone know how to stop arterial bleeding by the way?

waaa haaayy haay it a minute...I think this means you should give the gun to Trax! yeah! yeah! that's it, yeah!

[Rick]

It really is a nice shooter and very comfortable. The 13 shot clip is a bit longer than I thought it would be so concealment is going to be a bit of challenge but not too bad.

My dad had some .32 ammo that was waaaaay old. I took it with me today just to see if it would shoot. After the fifth click I gave up on it. It's kind of challenge to second guess that stuff. "Hmm. Is it a slow burn or a no burn?" Fortunately, they were all no burns.

[crashdive123]

I went to the range today and that new gun must need to be broken in. Either that or it needs more range time. It doesn't shoot very well. There are supposed to be holes in the target after you get done shooting aren't there?:o

You probably hit the target......just picked up a box of ninja ammunition by mistake.

[Rick]

Is that why they had little black covers on them?

[cajun swamp hunter]

My favorite is a kimber but sigs and glocks are nice also. I find the 40 cal is a very good cal- good knockdown plus I find more accurate that 45s. I have heard some good things about the springfield and I know two guys who have them. When I go to the range next week I will try to get some feedback from them for you about that model.

[Rick]

Thanks!! I like any information I can get regardless of the subject.

[cajun swamp hunter]

Rick sorry it took so long I have just been swamped no pun intended. I was told that they are very hard to change the sights on if you want some aftermarket or high vis sights put on. They also said one had problems with the ambidextrous clip release activating when shooting but with a change of grip style it didnt happen anymore. How does it shoot? Do you like it?

[Rick]

I've had it to the range a couple of times and I really enjoy it. For a short barrel it doesn't have all that much kick and it feels "right" in my hand. My shot placement isn't all that good but improving. I just have to get used to it.

I haven't had any problems with it at all. The magazine spring is tight and you won't hand load it with more than a half dozen. The thumb loader is a must to get all 13 rounds in the clip. At least for me. I'm pretty tickled with it. I just need to find THE holster. I have some that I like but haven't found the ONE yet.

[Sourdough]

Repeat after me I will not say "CLIP" ever again when I should say "MAGAZINE". Bad dog.

[Rick]

Okay, I got one magazine and one clip so that evens out doesn't it?

[Sourdough]

You should not have a clip for your handgun, unless it is a "CLIP-ON flashlight......?

I guess you could have a "CLIP" that you use to somehow speedload the magazines....I guess....?

[Sourdough]

There is no spring, (Feed spring) on a clip, and a clip only has two sides and the back, no bottom........A clip is used for top feed blind box magazines.
Think stripper clip

[Rick]

Hey, it's my gun, dang it. I'll call it Gertrude if I want. So I took the clip out of Gertrude and pushed ever harder on the spring, 'cause it was strong, and I needed to shove them bullets into the gun. There. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/tongue/tongue0020.gif (http://www.scottishpower.co.uk)

[Arkansas_Ranger]

Felt the need to champion my favorite handgun manufacturer....GLOCK!!! :D I love em. Get one today. Hickory dickory dock, I love a brand new Glock.

[Sourdough]

Be carefull just where you push on Gertrude, She has friends that bite.........:eek:

[crashdive123]

We talkin goose or gun or both?

[Rick]

Yes.......

[Sourdough]

I scored two turkeys they are 5 weeks old.

[Rick]

Were they drunk?

[crashdive123]

Were they drunk?

Must have had - dare I say it - Wild Turkey involved.

[Rick]

Parump bump! Hey, folks. Crash and I are here most evenings for the 5:00 and 7:00 shows. The buffet is in the corner, the bar is on your right and the jokes get funnier the more you drink.

[Ken]

My CCW of choice depends upon what I'm wearing, so that it's actually concealed and not bulging out for the world to notice. With cellphone and PDAs hanging from everyone's belts these days, many folks who CCW have grown careless. I often spot OC"C"Ws (Obviously Carried "Concealed" Weapons) when I'm out and about. I'll bet Ranger does, too. (Feel free to chime in on this, Ranger.)

But regardless of which caliber I CC, ( 9mm, .32 or .22) it's a BERETTA Right, Coot?:D

[Sourdough]

No....The school kids in Anchorage Incubated the eggs to hatchlings plus 5 weeks. There were on craigslist "FREE" my favorite price......The farm is getting bigger.

[Alpine_Sapper]

BERETTA Right, Coot?:D

Ugh...why not just by a Taurus? You'd get the same failure rate.

[crashdive123]

I've never had a failure of my Beretta or any of my Taurus'

[Ken]

There you have it! The first QC approval on the Forum!:D

[Tactical Tom]

This is one of my CCW setups :D
Glock19 (9mm) ColdSteel Prolite & a Vic. SAK
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc212/coaldigger05/EDCII.jpg

[sgtdraino]

I am a big fan of "mouse guns" for CCW. Small guns that can be concealed via a pocket holster in the front pocket. Nearly undetectible. You can look relaxed and casual, but in reality have your hand in your pocket ready to draw.

My preference has evolved over the years. I suppose technically my first subcompact was a Glock 27 in .40 S&W. Solid caliber, however, for my purposes, it was always a little too big and heavy for effective concealed carry.

I next went with a Keltec P3AT in .380 Auto (now under Ruger). For ease of carry, there is none better. It is so small and light, you can literally forget you have it on you. Downsides: The gun is a handful, it takes practice to be accurate with it. If you don't maintain a firm grip, it can FTF. These things can be alleviated with practice, but .380 is kind of an underpowered round.

Next I tried an Rohrbaugh R9S in 9mm. Nearly the same size as the P3AT, a little heavier, better caliber obviously. A high-dollar weapon assembled by hand with a long waiting list to purchase. As much as I would like to recommend this weapon, I cannot. For me, it was simply unreliable to feed. I could not count that it would fire more than a single shot when I needed it too.

Finally, we arrive at my current choice: A Kahr PM40 in .40 S&W. Only slightly bigger than the Rohrbaugh, only slightly heavier, in a very solid caliber, with solid reliability as well. I also managed better accuracy with this gun than the previous two, and you can even get it with night sights. For me, this is my pick for the current best CCW on the market.

Rick, the XD is an excellent weapon. If you are comfortable with the size, then I really don't think you can go wrong with it. I have owned 3, all great. I currently have the .45 XD compact, waiting for a chance to go qualify with it.

And Glocks are great too.

[crashdive123]

Nice review there Sgtdraino

[Rick]

The only drawback to night sights is if you can see them so can the bad guy that's behind you! My gunsmith asked me if I wanted them added. I said no thanks. They'll be enough light when I squeeze the trigger.:D

Great post by the way. Solid Info!!!

[sobeit]

Aney of the gun's you listed would be a good one. My prefrence is a Sig 229 in a 40 cal however. I like mine stock with 180gr winchester sxt. Iam not that small and I have no problem covering it up with a T shirt.

[Beo]

Don't usually carry off duty, but when I do its either my S&W .40 issued which is kinda big for ccw or my H&K USP .40 which I love. Looking at getting a Five-seveN because I have done a lot of shooting with it at our range and it handles nice. Now for the wilderness ya'll know its my Blair Higgin's Flintlock in .62 cal :D but that's just me:D
Also Nice review there Sgtdraino, real good info.

[ryaninmichigan]

12 gauge pump. I want people to know I have a weapon

[Rick]

12 guage pump? That's the perfect CCW?:D

[crashdive123]

You may get a little "printing" when you put it under your shirt.

[Rick]

And that metal is apt to be cold if it's inside the waist band!

[crashdive123]

Soooooooo Is that a shotgun in your pants or are you just happy to see me?

[ryaninmichigan]

I think people would think twice. when I have the room cleaner on back...

[Ole WV Coot]

And that metal is apt to be cold if it's inside the waist band!

Cold? Least of my problems. I either need shorter legs & longer arms or learn how to raise my leg to aim. That wouldn't work unless I wanted an ankle shot, mine and his. I do like the idea, just can't adapt.:eek:

[trax]

Soooooooo Is that a shotgun in your pants or are you just happy to see me?

Y'know...I totally avoided that line for soooo long after RiM first posted about the 12 guage. Good to know when we're talking about ccw that Crash will take the cheap shot:D

[Beo]

12 guage pump slung across your back, that sure won't draw any attention... naw.
The purpose of ccw is so no one knows you have it, if you strapped it across your back here I lock you up for inducing panic, just can't be done.
Sorry just brought out the cop in me:D

[ryaninmichigan]

12 guage pump slung across your back, that sure won't draw any attention... naw.
The purpose of ccw is so no one knows you have it, if you strapped it across your back here I lock you up for inducing panic, just can't be done.
Sorry just brought out the cop in me:D

I think that was my point. I WANT people to know I am carrying. No missunderstandings. I thought the constitution gives me the right to bear arms? In plain view.

[Beo]

No, well you could carry it unloaded. But the charge would be inducing panic as it would scare the heck outta everyone and the police who would draw down on you for carrying a firearm. sadly in todays world you can't do that, and to keep and bear arms does not mean walking around with a gun on your back its not even covered under ccw.

[ryaninmichigan]

So What good is a "right to bear arms" when you can not bear them? I think you are jsut dying to arest someone for inducing a panic.. I could do it are here. If fact I have.

[Proud American]

Hey some one mentioned getting the fn-57 what are the rules about carring concealed. Also Glacer Sfety slugs...oooooooo. Im glad were friends...(looks around scared)right everyone...(in a sheepish voice)dont shoot a minor right? But back to the my question i know that according to the geneva vonvention both the 57 and the glacer safety have some problems arent even crimminals protected by what kind of ammunition you use or are hoo point and glacer rounds all fair play? Just wonderin.

[Proud American]

Ryan by the way if you dont care about caring concealed and intimidation is your objective why dont introduce you to some other fine products like this M-60 and M-240 (in best sails man voice) nothin says dont mess with me and my Constitutional rights like a 7.62x51 machine gun!:D

[Rick]

Some states have a law called "brandishing", Ryan. That usually refers to open carry. Most states do allow open carry. Here us a link with a map that shows which do and which don't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry

Of course, that's for handguns. Shotguns are a different matter. I think Indiana requires it to be unloaded and in a case for carry.

[ryaninmichigan]

open carry in the great state of Michigan is fine. At least it has been. I would not carry into a school or church. BUt I have had many a sherilf roll up on me carring my shotgun and they did not "draw down on me"

[ryaninmichigan]

Some states have a law called "brandishing", Ryan. That usually refers to open carry. Most states do allow open carry. Here us a link with a map that shows which do and which don't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry

Of course, that's for handguns. Shotguns are a different matter. I think Indiana requires it to be unloaded and in a case for carry.

While walking? Not here.......

[Rick]

I guess is depends on where you're walking.:D

Here is a pretty good wiki on CCW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#India na)

[Beo]

Rick, that wiki says that Ohio is an Anomalous Open Carry State, which means, In these states, open carry is generally lawful, but the state may lack preemption or there may be other significant restrictions. The words "other significant restrictions" means in Ohio and the ORC that if you cause someone to believe that you have a firearm and it causes or in duces panic then an arrest can be made. In Ohio you cannot transport a loaded firearm, the laws says that if in your car the firearm must be transported seperate from the ammo, so if you have a gun and your going to the range and the gun is in the back seat the ammo must be in the trunk, if the gun is in the trunk the ammo must be in the glove box of the car. Makes no sense to me but that's the law, now CCW is different you can carry how you like as long as its concealed and your permit is on your person while carrying. When they did those walks here in Ohio the firearms strapped to their sides had no ammo in them, it was to show they wanted ccw when the governor wanted no ccw, it worked we have ccw here.
Do not use wiki for your info on laws, find out the laws of your state from local or state police agancies, they will be happy to provide you with everything you need. Most agencies like the ccw laws. Wiki can is often wrong on laws of the state because anyone can join and post to wikipedia.
Shotguns are not covered under ccw in any state.

Ryan,
For you to say you think I just wanna lock someone up for inducing panic is wrong, you don't know me or what I think. But as a Deputy Sheriff here in Ohio the laws the law and I will enforce it, that's my job. I don't wanna lock up anyone if I don't have to, trust me on that way too much paperwork, but it is my job and in Ohio you can carry in plain site, but it will scare people and that is inducing panic. I would draw down on anyone with a firearm if I'm called to investigate, its called officer safety. So yeah when I come upon someone with a gun I draw my weapon, and someone walking down the street with a shotgun I would do it too. If they have a ccw I wouldn't know but the law says they have to tell the police officer they have a weapon, and they do be it a traffic stop or just in casual conversation. I don't care about that, it's their right and they're legally allowed to carry that way so I got no problem with it. Never had a problem with a ccw holder not telling me they were carrying, in fact everyone I have encountered has told me that right off the bat while producing their permit, I looked at it and handed it back.

Here's what's happened in Ohio. Ohioans allowed to carry concealed handguns no longer must display them or lock them up while traveling in vehicles under a state law. Another change in Ohio's gun laws, one that forbids cities and villages to enact or enforce gun regulations stricter than the state's. It is only for ccw owners. Concealed-weapon license holders may place their guns inside closed purses or bags as long as the bags are secured with a snap, buckle, or zipper, and the bags must be kept in plain sight.
Here are Ohio CCW LAWS (Each State Is Different)
Applicants must be living in the United States legally
Has been a resident of the county or the adjacent county for at least thirty (30) days
If it is determined resident is legally living in the United States but has not met the county residency requirement, the Sheriff shall not deny application but shall hold application until residency is met
Applicant is not able to apply for or renew a concealed carry license if under suspension
Sheriff shall accept applications at least fifteen (15) hours a week and post notice of hours that applications will be accepted. The hours must be during normal business hours
There is a ten ($10) dollars increase to ($55.00) in license fee if the person has lived in Ohio for 5 consecutive years or more. There is a ten ($10) dollars increase to ($79.00) if the person has lived in Ohio less than 5 consecutive years
Sheriff must obtain at least four (4) fingerprints of applicant’s fingers. NOTE! The Sheriff SHALL still consider expunged or sealed records (No change from original law)
The license is valid for five (5) years of issuance if issued after 3/14/07 those before that date are only good for four (4) years
If license is denied, the denial will be heard in the county in which the Sheriff serves
License renewal cannot be earlier than ninety (90) days nor later than thirty (30) days for renewal
Person/driver/occupant has duty to inform law enforcement officer or motor carrier officer that they are armed when approached in vehicle
Licensee must keep hands in plain sight at all times while in motor vehicle and armed and do as directed by law enforcement officer
DO NOT attempt to remove weapon from holster, box or compartment unless directed to do so by law enforcement officer
DO NOT knowingly grasp, attempt to grasp or touch loaded weapon while in vehicle unless directed to do so by law enforcement officer
DO NOT exit vehicle unless ordered to do so by law enforcement officer
DO NOT fail to comply with all directions of law enforcement officer
Penalties have been enhanced for convictions as follows: Carrying Concealed Weapon 2923.12 (B)(1) and (2)
Carrying a Concealed Weapon 2923.12 (E)(3) and (4) will result in a suspension for one (1) year
Carrying a Concealed Weapon 2923.12 (B)(4)
Improperly Handling a firearm in a motor vehicle will result in a suspension for two (2) years
Method of Carry
On person
Open Carry - No Change: Firearms may be openly carried in cars only with a CCW permit/license.

(Problem here is Ohio law does not prohibit open carry. While the Ohio Supreme Court’s recent decision did not explicitly recognize that open carry was a right, they did recognize that the Ohio Constitution’s right to keep and bear arms provision was an individual right. There is a saying here that “the perfect is the enemy of the good.” What this means is that insisting on perfection sometimes means that if we insist that something be perfect—whether it is a law, a gun, or a person—we may lose out on the opportunity to have something less than perfect—but better than what we have now. Ohio’s new law is like that. It is not perfect—but it was as good a law as we could get right now. Insisting on the perfect law would have meant no change at all—and law-abiding Ohioans would have had no way to get a permit to carry concealed. It’s not a perfect law, but it is better than what Ohioans had before. I dunno, our gun laws are real weird here.)
Concealed – NO Change
In motor vehicle - In holster attached to person (plain sight removed)
2. In a closed case, bag, box or other container in plain sight that has a lid, cover or a closing mechanism with a zipper, snap or buckle, and which lid, cover or closing mechanism must be opened to gain access to handgun
3. Securely encased by being stored in a closed, locked glove compartment or in a case that is locked (plain sight removed)
4. Suspended licenses will all be entered into the Law Enforcement Automated Data System
5. An arrest for disqualifying offense 2923.128(A)(1)(a) suspension begins at arrest or charge
6. A conviction for disqualifying offense 2923.128(A)(2)(a) suspension begins on date of conviction
7. Sheriff shall notify licensee in writing of ending date of one (1) or two (2) year suspension
8. Sheriff shall return license when suspension is over unless license has expired during suspension, licensee may not reapply until suspension is over.
9. Law Enforcement Officer are exempt from all Carrying Concealed Weapons Laws, including transportation in a motor vehicle and carrying in prohibited places if:
10. Officer is qualified peace officer employed in Ohio
11. Re-qualification (weapon) requirement is met
12. Officer is authorized by agency head
Qualified RETIRED Peace Officer enjoy safe rights as Concealed Cary license holder if following is met:
Has an Agency issued retired ID Card and has retired in good standing (no mental instability)
Person was authorized to or participated in prevention, detection, investigation, prosecution, incarceration and had statutory authority to arrest
Receives bona fide retirement benefits
Successfully completes re-qualification annually
Must have certification from agency which includes retiree’s name, Agency’s name, date course completed and states valid for one (1) year.

Forbidden Carry Zones:

(concealed or open)
-Police stations, Sheriffs’ offices, Highway Patrol posts
-Premises controlled by the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation.
-Buildings owned by the state or any political subdivision.
-Any Federal Property (post offices, etc)
-School safety zones
-Any room serving alcoholic beverages for onsite consumption
-Any establishment with a D6 liquor permit selling packaged alcohol not for consumption (Sunday liquor sales)
-Correctional institutions or other detention facilities.
-Airport terminals or commercial airplanes.
-Institutions for the care of mentally ill persons.
-Courthouses or buildings in which a courtroom is located.
-Universities, unless locked in a motor vehicle or in the process of being locked in a motor vehicle.
-Places of worship, unless the place of worship permits otherwise.
-Child day-care centers.
-Private Property / Business When Prohibited by Owner or Posted
-Banks, Savings & Loans, and any other monetary institutions

Be advised this does not constitute legal advice from me or anyone else here. This is Ohio and all States have different Laws, check your state for your laws.

[Beo]

Ryan, check this out on Michigan Laws. Open Carry in cars only with a permit.
http://www.opencarry.org/mi.html
I don't know if this is true but I found this, just be careful if you carry open anywhere. Hate to see something happen. But I do agree that you have the right to keep and bear arms.
Another problem here that I do not agree with, a CCW permit from any other state is not valid in Ohio, meaning you can only carry CCW in Ohio with an Ohio CCW permit. I think if your ok in one state you should be okay in all.

[Beo]

But in Ohio a citizen can carry a stun gun or tazer, in Michigan you can't.
I don't understand that at all.
Are stun guns legal?
MICHIGAN: Illegal The Michigan Penal Code Act 328 of 1931. Chapter 750.224a Portable device or weapon directing electrical current, impulse, wave, or beam; sale or possession prohibited; testing. (1) A person shall not sell, offer for sale, or possess in this state a portable device or weapon from which an electric current, impulse, wave or beam is designed to incapacitate temporarily, injure, or kill. (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony. SUMMARY: Possession and sales of Stunning Devices are banned in Michigan.

Personally I think all our weapons laws need to be revamped and updated to fit the times.

[crashdive123]

Here's some info on CCW reciprocity laws in the U.S. http://www.handgunlaw.us/

[Beo]

Handgun laws are so tricky, most say that Ohio recognizes alot of other state ccw permits but in training we were told only Ohio CCW permits are legal. And the open carry thing is real confusing... I dunno I just do as I'm told.

[ryaninmichigan]

Ryan, check this out on Michigan Laws. Open Carry in cars only with a permit.
http://www.opencarry.org/mi.html
I don't know if this is true but I found this, just be careful if you carry open anywhere. Hate to see something happen. But I do agree that you have the right to keep and bear arms.
Another problem here that I do not agree with, a CCW permit from any other state is not valid in Ohio, meaning you can only carry CCW in Ohio with an Ohio CCW permit. I think if your ok in one state you should be okay in all.

This is from the top of the web sight.

Michigan

Summary
Michigan is a traditional open carry state. Open carry is more common in rural areas. You may NOT open carry in a car without a permit. However, Michigan recognizes the resident permits of all 50 states.

I live a rural area. THat is why I say it is common to open carry here. Not in a car though.

[Beo]

Okay, thanks I was just wondering. So many different laws on guns and carrying them it can get confusing. And most make no sense to me as to why a legal law biding citizen has to go through so much crap to carry a gun. But then I'm just a worker bee and I guess that stuff is way above my pay grade.

[Rick]

Hey! What about a federal law on guns? What d'ya say? Something like..... if you want to carry.....okay. Open or closed.....okay. Don't want to carry.....okay.

Flatlanders and Cheeseheads must play along, too!

[Ole WV Coot]

Okay, thanks I was just wondering. So many different laws on guns and carrying them it can get confusing. And most make no sense to me as to why a legal law biding citizen has to go through so much crap to carry a gun. But then I'm just a worker bee and I guess that stuff is way above my pay grade.

Beo I get a dozen different stories about Ohio honoring my CCW. I know a couple of years ago it was a no no. Another relative is a LEO just across the river from WV and he isn't sure. I do like I always have done, I don't carry in Ohio because right now everything is as clear as the river I cross to get there. I am probably wrong but each border area seems to have a different view. I would like to see a national permit honored like a valid driver's license but that will never happen. I have been pulled over once for speeding. We were going in opposite directions and he had to do a flip. I could have hit a few back roads never to be seen by the SP but I pulled over rolled down the driver's window put both hands on top of the wheel and waited on him. When he walked up I told him I had a semi auto 45 on top of my registration and did he want me to get it. No problem, just removed the 45 by the grip with a couple of fingers and placed it on the seat. He went back to his cruiser, ran tags & license wrote a ticket and did ask if I had a permit. I told him if I hadn't he wouldn't have seen it. He didn't bother to even ask for it. No problem with either of us,the way it should be. I didn't pay the ticket anyway.

[rightcoast]

I carry a 9x18 Baikal IJ-70 Makarov. Ammo is real cheap, and good self defense rounds are available on gunbroker and other sites. Cor-Bon and Hellier both make good stuff, the hellier is more commonly available. Wolf and other cheap ammo is just that, great for practice and very cheap in the unreloadble steel cased versions. It's a smallish gun, bordering on pocket pistol size, but with a bigger wallop than the .32's and .380's. Easy to carry with an empty chamber or safe for cocked and locked too, with an excellent intuitive safety switch.

Not me, just Googled a pic:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/57/213202979_32ba5ddc37.jpg

[Proud American]

Ok found the answer to my question if any one was wondering, hollow points and glaceir safety rounds are legal for personal protection. I thought that since the military was not allowed to use them civilians couldn't use them either.

[Rick]

Do any of you carry a Kel Tec PF 9? What do you think of it? I've read some of the reviews on the web but would like to know what some of the members think. It's next on my list.

[crashdive123]

Haven't tried it, but like the size for easy concealment. If you like that XD 45 you bought, take a look at the XD 40 in sub compact. Small size with just a bit more punch than the 9.

[Rick]

I also liked the weight (12.7 ounces empty) and the price!! The XD .40 comes in at 20.5 ounces empty...nearly double the weight (sorta, almost). The 9mm is still a respectable round and thought it would make a nice backup or primary where the old .45 is a bit tough to conceal.

[crashdive123]

The 9 is a fine round for personal defense - I have several. I just remembered that you once said you were looking for a bit more oomph from the 32. I do like the weight of that at 12.7 ounces. I'm sure somebody here has tried the Kel Tech.

[Rick]

You remembered right and the .45 filled the bill on that. Now it's time to find that perfect backup piece.

[sgtdraino]

Do any of you carry a Kel Tec PF 9? What do you think of it? I've read some of the reviews on the web but would like to know what some of the members think. It's next on my list.

I like and own the P3AT. I have not tried the PF9. I feel like I looked into it at one point. It is quite flat, though significantly bigger than the P3AT. I want to say that at the time I checked it out (A couple of years ago), it had some reliability issues, but it was a new gun then. They might have smoothed out the wrinkles by now.

If you want to go with a 9mm mouse gun, if I were you I would try a Kahr PM9.

[Rick]

Sadly, the PM9 is in the $650+ range. If I'm spending that kind of money it had better be in .223 or something bigger. The Kel Tec is less than $300. Yeah, I know. I'm cheap.

[canid]

at least you're not aiming for the $200 range, like hi-point compact 9.

[SARKY]

If you are looking for a good platform for CC check out the Sig 250. It allows you to change out the frames and slides and swap from 9mm to .357 Sig to .40S&W. It is also available in .45 with the ability to swap out frame grips to go from full sized to compact to sub compact.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

чело (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/1875)170.2 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/791)Norm (http://eyesvision.ru/normal-sight-without-glasses)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1921-03)Курл (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1195019)�туд (http://filmzones.ru/t/1025112)Micr (http://gadwall.ru/t/906264)Race (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1102139)Мо�к (http://gageboard.ru/t/1095524)Гурв (http://gagrule.ru/t/945439)укра (http://gallduct.ru/t/1162907)мино (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1048469)Have (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1099375)1316 (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1531419)Bell (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1144332)
Tesc (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1028873)тек� (http://gascautery.ru/t/1144207)Соде (http://gashbucket.ru/t/854815)цвет (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1144364)Robe (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/913304)Stal (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1161866)Крыл (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1232654)Prem (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/972538)Anto (http://geartreating.ru/t/1049761)XVII (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1002572)Rosa (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1041248)Stev (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/947117)�нуф (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/946608)Бар� (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/946076)�аиб (http://getthebounce.ru/t/815471)
Addi (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1088374)Pray (http://habituate.ru/t/1091952)XVII (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/944683)Попо (http://hackworker.ru/t/1136150)ин�т (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1102711)�луж (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1095943)�о�о (http://hailsquall.ru/t/849594)Каме (http://hairysphere.ru/t/943388)Will (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/849226)Will (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/938391)Maur (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/846457)Mari (http://haltstate.ru/t/900194)Olym (http://handcoding.ru/t/1027539)Ambe (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1143313)Гнед (http://handradar.ru/t/831046)
Taod (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/862329)Sisi (http://hangonpart.ru/t/972355)Harl (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/781384)Stev (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/568242)Pian (http://hardasiron.ru/t/632174)Ли�ю (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/857058)Coto (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/865824)отли (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/762386)Стел (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/836174)Мухи (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1239682)Robe (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/846033)�пох (http://headregulator.ru/t/1375022)и�то (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547457)Gian (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/833121)Worl (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1189388)
Xunx (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182510)отде (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/749412)Kevi (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/664989)XVII (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/846015)Troy (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/645207)�зык (http://jobstress.ru/t/674729)Богд (http://jogformation.ru/t/834088)Andr (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1147584)Жара (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1147985)Phil (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1142105)Flow (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1147580)Silv (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180399)Sela (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1181904)Zero (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1183253)Pali (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180045)
ELEG (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181121)Хани (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/653812)Quik (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1183124)неду (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1179887)Jidd (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/674080)Mich (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/654224)Roxy (http://keyserum.ru/t/1180927)Keit (http://kickplate.ru/t/1210625)физи (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1239590)Anne (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/846154)куби (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1004381)бога (http://kinozones.ru/film/4323)Wind (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/784908)�еха (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1062455)Пимо (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1352101)
�изо (http://knockonatom.ru/t/833453)терр (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1009749)Уфим (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1245122)�к�т (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1226559)Duke (http://laborracket.ru/t/1200432)diam (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1548518)Andr (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1311733)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190622)Chet (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1188888)3111 (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188561)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1186899)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1193530)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1191972)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190281)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1191912)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1191957)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1193522)Б500 (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1184212)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185106)кара (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185046)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186486)diam (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1188670)Иллю (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1241812)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1186952)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185268)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1191066)Во�т (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1160899)горе (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/589820)ме�� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/276)лото (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590270)

[yellowcab]

Livi (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178476)Clim (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/99000)Hans (http://layabout.ru/shop/452139)Стеб (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/167494)Jacq (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105556)держ (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/462002)держ (http://leaveword.ru/shop/461994)�рти (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/176908)C170 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/447237)Olme (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/194582)�лек (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/266528)Laur (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/269778)BELL (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/160246)Прош (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159917)MAZD (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613696)
хоро (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/598194)меди (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1903)Mant (http://mp3lists.ru/item/4059)peac (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/574575)ки�т (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/104854)NDFE (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/460913)неде (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/486805)клет (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/176968)Find (http://navelseed.ru/shop/101008)Прав (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/454803)Мана (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/175033)Схир (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/185814)Lamb (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/451041)Neil (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108734)Bran (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/96316)
Vite (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98495)Badg (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570286)Adva (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571828)Wind (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148147)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/200922)Subl (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/148139)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/578637)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/580500)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/682908)Соде (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/681829)движ (http://palmberry.ru/shop/378891)acti (http://papercoating.ru/shop/582086)Drag (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/687901)Барщ (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1167231)обла (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1167282)
рабо (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1166312)Chin (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1169076)Мень (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1539113)разн (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/473958)Smas (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/594135)Голо (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/595982)Pete (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1070355)Irin (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1072534)XVII (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/232455)Eigh (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/505884)Fait (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/514832)Jerr (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/512202)Куди (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/880292)�тте (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1077706)рыба (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/317817)
Gabr (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/512972)Alki (http://rearchain.ru/shop/640879)Мо�к (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/515912)а��о (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/879869)Wind (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1053470)Harr (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1061892)fict (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1678485)Кузь (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693040)Зайц (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1758600)Bone (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/122114)Лени (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1813932)Ерми (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1053668)авто (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1066087)Коро (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1432995)Гурк (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1461975)
Пету (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1487996)Соде (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1461968)Иван (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1493542)Пучк (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1303407)Sigm (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/271450)wwwe (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1480502)Elvi (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/304419)Коле (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/399116)Hele (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/400025)Gran (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/462632)ме�� (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/276)ме�� (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/276)ме�� (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/276)Jewe (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/482382)Frid (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/489763)
авто (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/497790)Keta (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/482721)теат (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/486425)физи (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/498551)Clar (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1821112)Comp (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1876994)чтен (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/650699)факу (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/330696)Иллю (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/399999)Andr (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/979596)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)легч (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/979980)Драк (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/482809)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://geartreating.ru)инфо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)инфо (http://getintoaflap.ru)инфо (http://gashbucket.ru)инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://hailsquall.ru)инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://heatageingresistance.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)
инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://gaussianfilter.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://hardasiron.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://cottagenet.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://getthebounce.ru)
инфо (http://gardeningleave.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)инфо (http://haphazardwinding.ru)инфо (http://hangonpart.ru)инфо (http://eyesvision.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)инфо (http://heartofgold.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)инфо (http://gasreturn.ru)
инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://haltstate.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://haemagglutinin.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://hatchholddown.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://galvanometric.ru)
инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://gaffertape.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://gageboard.ru)инфо (http://haveafinetime.ru)
инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://halforderfringe.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://gangforeman.ru)инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)
инфо (http://gagrule.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://gatedsweep.ru)инфо (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://handcoding.ru)инфо (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)инфо (http://gaugemodel.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)
инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://gallduct.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://handradar.ru)инфо (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://habituate.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://factoringfee.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://geriatricnurse.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)
инфо (http://filmzones.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://gangwayplatform.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://gascautery.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://halfsiblings.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)
инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://habeascorpus.ru)инфо (http://heatinggas.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)
инфо (http://generalprovisions.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)инфо (http://gadwall.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://handportedhead.ru)инфо (http://hackedbolt.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://hairysphere.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)
инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)
инфо (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)инфо (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)инфо (http://garbagechute.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://hackworker.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)
инфо (http://headregulator.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://hallofresidence.ru)инфо (http://partfamily.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://eyesvisions.com)