Just when you thought it couldn't get any dumber

[natertot]

https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/school-prepares-kids-for-intruders-by-teaching-108085288082.html

If this makes it up to my children's school, I will be having a chit chat with the board of education and the local police chief.

[Rick]

But, but, but, what about tactical bacon? I mean...it's tactical. Proof positive that there is no shortage of stupid in this world. Duck and cover seems far more practical than fling the string beans.

[Rick]

"I want tomato soup to spearhead the attack. General Fusal, your carrots will cover the left flank while sweet peas cover the right. I want creamed corn held in reserve."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/defeat/catastrophe-stalingrad-hitler-map.jpg

[Winnie]

How about intruders can't get in the School in the first place......

And my Dad was right, empowering is just another word for delegation and shifting responsibility.

[crashdive123]

A wise man once said "Stupid is as stupid does" and man o man, this is stupid.

[natertot]

God forbid we arm staff with firearms! Although a few schools around me have instituted that in small numbers officially.

Another thing that kills me about this is that there is zero tolerance should a kid bring a harmless toy gun to school, but then the school is going to teach them (albeit poorly) on how to improvise weapons? As my dear aunt would say, "Oh sweeeeet baby Jesus!".

Perhaps a can of this would do?

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo188/Nathaniel_Buchanan/whoop_zps60439914.jpg (http://s374.photobucket.com/user/Nathaniel_Buchanan/media/whoop_zps60439914.jpg.html)

[MrFixIt]

My dad taught me to never bring a can of beans to a gunfight.

[tundrabadger]

Splendid idea. I for one always have a can of soup in my bookbag for just such an occasion. But, really, what kind of parent sends their child to school without tactical canned goods? Surely the school board shouldn't have to teach them this....call the children's aid, that's what I say!

[Grizz123]

I'm not 100% against the idea.

If the kids (teenagers) are trained to the extent they can hit an intruder at classroom distance (know their abilities) and taught to hide and set up some sort of defense prior to tossing cans, it could slow down an attacker to the point of pushing him out of the area.

Lets face the facts, if someone enters a school shooting, they plan on killing people and putting up resistance to the attacker will slow them down and save lives. Granted it would be much better to have armed adults (teachers and or guards) to protect the kids but that does not seem to be an option at this school

[kyratshooter]

As a retired career teacher I can make some valid input on this one.

You do not want to arm the average classroom teacher. It will not work. They are so ingrained with the liberal theology, especially teachers in the lower grades, that they can not be trained in tactical use of a firearm. One out of 1,000, maybe, but not even 1 out of 100 could transition into "defend the kids" mode.

They can hide the kids and secure the classroom within department guidelines but their basic move is lock the door, turn off the lights and tremble in fear. Many classroom do not even have locking doors.

They have been trained for their entire lifetime to be helpless prey with their primary defense tactic being to avoid eye contact, pretend the problem does not exist, and if it can not be ignored RUN!

I was often very shocked to find that in the upper grades I ran into Army and Marine veterans who were pacifists, supported total gun control and had zero tolerance for fighting even in self defense. Many even objected to having an armed police officer in the school.

Many would object to this "soup can defense" as encouraging conflict and promoting violence when everyone knows that conflict resolution and peaceful coexistence are the foundations of modern society.

It's a different culture folks, one that was difficult for me to understand even after 30 years involvement.

[Rick]

Poppycock. You taught and you can handle a weapon. I taught and I can handle one. I don't know about Kentucky but where I hail from most of the teachers, men and women alike, either shoot already or someone in their immediate family could teach them. I'm sure there is a lot of truth in your statement but let's not paint the world with a single brush. There are a lot of states that allow teachers to conceal carry today.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/f-firearm-more-teachers-authorized-carry-weapons-classroom-n208946

Grizz - How do you put up resistance to an armed intruder? Use your body as a shield?

We tried the can defense here at the forum. Chris came in and all three of us had eaten the contents.

[Grizz123]

I'm not saying give them (teachers) weapons and walk away. I saying IF they are interested they should be aloud to carry with some sort of close quarters combat training specifically designed around schools and teachers, not the military stuff.

Every school shooting story I've read about explains how the attacker shoots himself at the first sign of resistance, why not train as many people as possible to resist, at least those that are interested.

And more importantly, make it known to the public that teachers are aloud to carry in that school. Bad guys always look for gun free zone to reek their havoc

[hunter63]

Good grief............

OK who ate their ammo......?

[Rick]

Give me your money and no one gets hurt. It's hot sauce and I know how to throw it!

http://www.ashleyfoods.com/images/P/satans-rage-400.jpg (http://www.bisummo.com/catalog/***-Murdering-Hot-Sauce-Fire-Sale.jpg)

[Ken]

Well, I'll bet I know what Sarge will bring to school.

http://blog.beatthebrochure.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Cow-Urine-Soda.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.beatthebrochure.com%2F6-drinks-you-are-too-scared-to-try%2F5676%2Fcow-urine-soda&ei=ulq5VOTaFsnuUKmggkg&bvm=bv.83829542,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNErZsTUWs33PC85PcucvCV1GWV0Hg&ust=1421519917746650)

[hunter63]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/enhanced-buzz-18418-1333459359-16_zpseb4f1715.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/hunter63/media/enhanced-buzz-18418-1333459359-16_zpseb4f1715.jpg.html)

[Grizz123]

Grizz - How do you put up resistance to an armed intruder? Use your body as a shield?



An armed intruder in a school, history has shown, always back down and shoot themselves if they are faced with resistance. Will that also be true, who knows, but its better to fight for life vs lay down and get shot. They should lock doors, hide and if confronted, fight any way possible. Throwing cans of beans will be more damaging than getting hit with a ruler, phone or whatever these kids take to school these days.

And like I said before, if the public is aware of the armed teachers, the bad guys will pick an easier target like a "no gun zone"

Remember 9/11/01?? The flight that crashed in PA? Those guys fought back and saved whatever their next target was supposed to be.

[Rick]

I would suggest it is a bit different having a group of men defending against a knife wielding moron in the confines of an aircraft than a bunch of little kids going against a moron with a semi auto firearm.

[Grizz123]

I would suggest it is a bit different having a group of men defending against a knife wielding moron in the confines of an aircraft than a bunch of little kids going against a moron with a semi auto firearm.

You're right. And I'm not suggesting the kids go into a search and destroy mentality with cans of soup against some moron with any weapon and who is hell bent on killing.

But history has shown that in school shootings, the shooter will back off and shoot himself at the first sign of resistance.

Why do you feel its so wrong for teenagers in school to defend themselves with any means available? The only other options are to

1) Hide = sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't and kids get shot until the shooter decides to move on and or runs out of ammo
2) Run away = again, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. Consider the 100's of kids piled up at an exit, the one in front trip and the others stomping over him or her to get out. Plus the shooter will have all the "targets" piled up in one area to easily pick off
3) I cant think of any other options other than calling the LEO's but by the time they show up everything will be over

There is no way to prevent these terrible things from happening in the future, or only option is to be prepared and ready to fight back, hoping and praying it ends quickly with few, if any, innocents lost.

[Batch]

I think you could support the statement that most active shooters shot themselves after armed responders appeared on the scene.

There have been several stories of teachers resisting in various ways that resulted in the teachers death and continued assault on the school by the shooter.

I could dig up a couple of stories off the top of my head where a person with a handgun engaged an active shooter and either died or been wounded without stopping the spree. One was a mall shooting a couple years back. You are engaging a gunman armed with a rifle and you have a handgun (probably a sub compact). Anyone with practical experience on a firing range with both weapons isn't gonna like those odds. Unfortunately, the people that engage the shooter often try to stop them by yelling, "drop the gun" or something like that.

Also, lets say some 9 year old got lucky and beaned the shooter with a can of Van Camps. The school board would immediately suspend that student and ban the possession of tactical assault beans from with 100 yards of any school.

Having declared these schools a can free zone, have we not opened them up to attacks by assault asparagus? A barrage of broccoli? Canned corn carnage? Deadly dumpling destruction? Erie endive encounter? Flying fennel fiasco?

[Grizz123]

I think you could support the statement that most active shooters shot themselves after armed responders appeared on the scene.

There have been several stories of teachers resisting in various ways that resulted in the teachers death and continued assault on the school by the shooter.

I could dig up a couple of stories off the top of my head where a person with a handgun engaged an active shooter and either died or been wounded without stopping the spree. One was a mall shooting a couple years back. You are engaging a gunman armed with a rifle and you have a handgun (probably a sub compact). Anyone with practical experience on a firing range with both weapons isn't gonna like those odds. Unfortunately, the people that engage the shooter often try to stop them by yelling, "drop the gun" or something like that.

Also, lets say some 9 year old got lucky and beaned the shooter with a can of Van Camps. The school board would immediately suspend that student and ban the possession of tactical assault beans from with 100 yards of any school.

Having declared these schools a can free zone, have we not opened them up to attacks by assault asparagus? A barrage of broccoli? Canned corn carnage? Deadly dumpling destruction? Erie endive encounter? Flying fennel fiasco?

So your response is to do nothing and hope the bad guy does not hit you?

[hunter63]

The problem here is people trying to apply logic when there really isn't any......

I can see an attempt and desire to do "something".....so the can of beans may seem more logical to some one that know that guns, knives, baseball bats are an absolute PC no-no.

The whole thing seem like a sick attempt to continue draw attention to gun control.....again.....
As in:
"Take away everyone guns and we will have no need for tactical cans of beans....and everyone will live happily ever after."

[Grizz123]

The problem here is people trying to apply logic when there really isn't any......

I can see an attempt and desire to do "something".....so the can of beans may seem more logical to some one that know that guns, knives, baseball bats are an absolute PC no-no.

The whole thing seem like a sick attempt to continue draw attention to gun control.....again.....
As in:
"Take away everyone guns and we will have no need for tactical cans of beans....and everyone will live happily ever after."

I was looking at it from the perspective of "if you wont let us have guns, we will use whatever we have to defend ourselves". And as dumb as "arming" the kids with cans sounds, its better than being a sitting duck, waiting to get shot because the teachers are not aloud to be armed and properly trained or having armed LEO's (ex military or security firm) walking the property.

[hunter63]

Now that I think of it.....baseball bats are sounding better than soup cans.......

[dkr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzAQFIQjqcg

at the (about) 2.00 minute mark.... a real can shooter, powerful enough to kill.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have....cans?

[LowKey]

Has anyone determined if this isn't just an attempt by someone who actually favors having an armed resource officer in the school? Maybe they're drawing attention to the fact they would rather have an armed officer rather than relying on kids with cans of beans. Like, "Hey parents, your kids are potentially sitting ducks here and I'm just drawing attention to that fact by my request for canned goods.)

I don't know. Sounds like something I might come up with. I'm an instigator-by-design kind of guy.

Guessing though that's giving this person too much benefit of the doubt.

[Batch]

So your response is to do nothing and hope the bad guy does not hit you?

Not at all. I am saying that I would not support training kids to throw cans at an active shooter as a good security measure or even a sane response to one.

Also, that the implication that all shooters, when face with any resistance, just shoots themselves in the head is wrong. It is usually when an armed responder arrives and challenges them.

[Rick]

There are so many things that can be done in place of suggesting that 12-13 year olds try to defend themselves with anything. Harden the structure. Prevent open access by installing video cameras and locked doors that can only be opened by someone inside. Install security officers with weapons. Allow teachers the right of concealed carry in the classroom. I would not want a pre-teen or young teen defending themselves with anything in that environment. Cans or otherwise. This is an instance when avoidance is the better road. Giving the structure the ability to provide avoidance keeps the shooter out.

[natertot]

I agree hunter, batch and rick.

My thought is if the teacher doesn't have a viable means of defense, the best thing to truly do is lock the classroom door and position everyone in the room out sight. There should also be a code word that only school staff have and can give to police upon arrival. When police or staff approach a door, they say the code word and wait for a response. There should be two response words, one that means all is well in the room and one that indicates duress. These words should be changed often to maintain their integrity. I guarantee this will save more lives than a can of anything.

[LowKey]

Hardening schools has always been my option. Mag lock doors that close from the main office that will section off hallways would be a major deterrent to access.

Panic Rooms between classrooms, while they take up space, are also an option.

Most schools require glass viewing windows so the inside of the classroom can be seen from the corridor, I guess so no child molesting can happen. Those need to be hardened as well. Bullet-proof plastics are no longer cost prohibitive.

[natertot]

+1 low key, good ideas.

[finallyME]

Harden the school, arm teachers.....I agree with the many options people have submitted.

But....if I were a cornered student with a gunman across the room.....I would want something heavy that I could throw at him. Just sayin...

[natertot]

Harden the school, arm teachers.....I agree with the many options people have submitted.

But....if I were a cornered student with a gunman across the room.....I would want something heavy that I could throw at him. Just sayin...

I think there are plenty of options within the school already that would work better than storing canned food. I was a freshman in high school the school year after columbine occurred. Our teachers were telling us we were supposed to turn off the lights and shelter under the desks. I pretty much told my teacher a shooter is not a tornado and that I would be hiding behind the door with a big pair of sharp scissors. The following week I had a required meeting with my school counselor........ :tongue_smilie:

[crashdive123]

I think there are plenty of options within the school already that would work better than storing canned food. I was a freshman in high school the school year after columbine occurred. Our teachers were telling us we were supposed to turn off the lights and shelter under the desks. I pretty much told my teacher a shooter is not a tornado and that I would be hiding behind the door with a big pair of sharp scissors. The following week I had a required meeting with my school counselor........ :tongue_smilie:

Your teacher had to change out all of the scissors didn't she?

http://m4.sourcingmap.com/photo_new/20120813/g/ux_a12081300ux0971_ux_g03.jpg

[natertot]

No, not really. The teacher was concerned with my "creative level of violent thinking". I had to spend 30 minutes convincing the counselor I was not violent nor do I look for violence but when placed in the right circumstances I will defend myself to the end and I will not fight fair. After the meeting my parents were called and they reiterated to the counselor that I was taught not to start fights but that I should defend myself in the right situations. My family and I never heard another word about it after that.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if that is why all my mandatory class schedules prevented me from taking art class as an elective...... :art:

[Rick]

.if I were a cornered student with a gunman across the room.....I would want something heavy that I could throw at him. Just sayin...

Toby was always pretty heavy. He probably would make a better shield though. He could hide three or four kids behind him.

[Winnie]

Toby was always pretty heavy. He probably would make a better shield though. He could hide three or four kids behind him. [/COLOR]

Oooo you bad....

[rebel]

That's clazy

[hunter63]

Toby was always pretty heavy. He probably would make a better shield though. He could hide three or four kids behind him. [/COLOR]

Ah ha,.....The old , "only have to run faster than you" defense.......Survival of the smallest?

[Grizz123]

Hardening schools has always been my option. Mag lock doors that close from the main office that will section off hallways would be a major deterrent to access.

Panic Rooms between classrooms, while they take up space, are also an option.

Most schools require glass viewing windows so the inside of the classroom can be seen from the corridor, I guess so no child molesting can happen. Those need to be hardened as well. Bullet-proof plastics are no longer cost prohibitive.

Mag lock the doors from the main office? How many kids and teachers will be trapped in the hallways with the bad guy?


I agree hunter, batch and rick.

My thought is if the teacher doesn't have a viable means of defense, the best thing to truly do is lock the classroom door and position everyone in the room out sight. There should also be a code word that only school staff have and can give to police upon arrival. When police or staff approach a door, they say the code word and wait for a response. There should be two response words, one that means all is well in the room and one that indicates duress. These words should be changed often to maintain their integrity. I guarantee this will save more lives than a can of anything.

Code words? Really? Think about it, we already have countless code words (passwords) to remember and now you want to give a bunch of teachers and LOE's more words to remember? What about when a teacher gets sick and they have a sub come in? What about kids in the hallway, will they have passwords too? The number of people "in the loop" is ridiculous and expecting them to remember new passwords/codewords that get changed on a regular basis is not doable


I think there are plenty of options within the school already that would work better than storing canned food. I was a freshman in high school the school year after columbine occurred. Our teachers were telling us we were supposed to turn off the lights and shelter under the desks. I pretty much told my teacher a shooter is not a tornado and that I would be hiding behind the door with a big pair of sharp scissors. The following week I had a required meeting with my school counselor........ :tongue_smilie:

so being within close contact of the bad guy is ok for you (scissors behind the door) but throwing cans from a distance is not a good idea?

Preventing the bad guys from entering, is the best choice, but that has never stopped the bad guys. Kids are bringing weapons into schools that have metal detectors at every door. Sandy Hook had a video security system but the bad guy shot the windows out and walked in.

The last line of defense is the person looking down the wrong end of the barrel and I have no doubt that person would much rather have a can of beans to throw and a chance of survival vs. do nothing and die.

[Rick]

The idea behind the mag lock is to keep the bad guy out. It's not locking them in.

Actually, Lanza shot out a glass panel next to the front door because the door was locked. That's not a hardened facility.

[Grizz123]

The idea behind the mag lock is to keep the bad guy out. It's not locking them in.

Actually, Lanza shot out a glass panel next to the front door because the door was locked. That's not a hardened facility.

Keep the bad guy locked in the hall with any kids and teachers that are left in the hall?

Lanza was not a hardened facility but everyone thought it was because they had the video entry system. My point is no matter what you (good guys) do, the bad guys will always find a way around them, you cant stop crazy. But have something, anything to defend yourself with is far better than having nothing at all

[hunter63]

Get them kids ready...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/funny%20stuff/41cItHJf8DL_zpsb780356d.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/hunter63/media/funny%20stuff/41cItHJf8DL_zpsb780356d.jpg.html)

[Rick]

Keep the bad guy locked in the hall with any kids and teachers that are left in the hall?

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/homer-simpson-doh.gif (http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/homer-simpson-doh.gif)

Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.

I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.

[natertot]

Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.

I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.

Thanks for spelling that out! :smartass:

[natertot]

Code words? Really? Think about it, we already have countless code words (passwords) to remember and now you want to give a bunch of teachers and LOE's more words to remember? What about when a teacher gets sick and they have a sub come in? What about kids in the hallway, will they have passwords too? The number of people "in the loop" is ridiculous and expecting them to remember new passwords/codewords that get changed on a regular basis is not doable
Actually this is already being used in other settings and has seems to be very successful through testing. There are only three words to remember, if you can't remember three words then you have more severe issues than an active shooter to contend with. They have been tested in environments that utilize temp agencies which could be substitutes in schools. This setup is more than doable.


so being within close contact of the bad guy is ok for you (scissors behind the door) but throwing cans from a distance is not a good idea?
Yes, I would much rather have an improvised deadly weapon (scissors) with an element of surprise on my side (doesn't know I am behind the door and coming up behind him) than having completely non lethal items while in the direct field of view of the attacker and well within the effective range of his rifle.

Preventing the bad guys from entering, is the best choice, but that has never stopped the bad guys. Kids are bringing weapons into schools that have metal detectors at every door. Sandy Hook had a video security system but the bad guy shot the windows out and walked in.

The last line of defense is the person looking down the wrong end of the barrel and I have no doubt that person would much rather have a can of beans to throw and a chance of survival vs. do nothing and die.no one said do nothing and die, I just know that within the school building there are better improvised weapons than a can. Scissors, chairs, pens, pencils, school books, etc.


I choose to defend myself and hope to neutralize the threat in the process, not p!zz off the attacker so he tries harder next time.

[Batch]

My point is no matter what you (good guys) do, the bad guys will always find a way around them, you cant stop crazy. But have something, anything to defend yourself with is far better than having nothing at all

Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.

What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P

[Rick]

And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

[hunter63]

And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

Called 'pile on ground"....most little kids can't throw 75 ft (25 yds)

[MrFixIt]

Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.

What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P


And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

This ^^ could become a new elective class in schools.
"Tactical Bean Can Throwing, 101"

[Grizz123]

Quote Originally Posted by Grizz123 View Post
Code words? Really? Think about it, we already have countless code words (passwords) to remember and now you want to give a bunch of teachers and LOE's more words to remember? What about when a teacher gets sick and they have a sub come in? What about kids in the hallway, will they have passwords too? The number of people "in the loop" is ridiculous and expecting them to remember new passwords/codewords that get changed on a regular basis is not doable
Actually this is already being used in other settings and has seems to be very successful through testing. There are only three words to remember, if you can't remember three words then you have more severe issues than an active shooter to contend with. They have been tested in environments that utilize temp agencies which could be substitutes in schools. This setup is more than doable.

Three words to remember? 100+ teachers, subs, contractors working in the buildings, LEO's and students knowing those words? Changing those words every so often, and if a real threat happens, everyone is thinking "what is this weeks code phrase?"

so being within close contact of the bad guy is ok for you (scissors behind the door) but throwing cans from a distance is not a good idea?
Yes, I would much rather have an improvised deadly weapon (scissors) with an element of surprise on my side (doesn't know I am behind the door and coming up behind him) than having completely non lethal items while in the direct field of view of the attacker and well within the effective range of his rifle.

Yes, a lethal weapon is preferred to non-lethal when talking about teachers/adults. But training the average student to use lethal force and then expecting them to act, is not realistic or responsible. Telling them to hide and only fight back when confronted, is more realistic. Asking them to toss cans of food is something they can all do, asking them to stab someone with scissors, pen or make close contact with the bad guy is something most young minds cant grasp and act on.

Preventing the bad guys from entering, is the best choice, but that has never stopped the bad guys. Kids are bringing weapons into schools that have metal detectors at every door. Sandy Hook had a video security system but the bad guy shot the windows out and walked in.

The last line of defense is the person looking down the wrong end of the barrel and I have no doubt that person would much rather have a can of beans to throw and a chance of survival vs. do nothing and die.no one said do nothing and die, I just know that within the school building there are better improvised weapons than a can. Scissors, chairs, pens, pencils, school books, etc.

Pens and pencils are better than cans?? Making close contact with someone that is obviously not in the right state mind is a good idea? Toss a chair is far more difficult than tossing a can of food, right? School books, I've tossed many of them when in school and they always flopped open and feel to the floor, a can of food would be much more effective.



I choose to defend myself and hope to neutralize the threat in the process, not p!zz off the attacker so he tries harder next time.

This is great for you, what about 30 students stuck in a classroom, do they have the right to defend themselves? If you stab the bad guy in the arm, leg or non-lethal area, or miss completely, he is going to be pissed off and try harder next time and now you are within his reach. Actually, "pissed off" shouldn't even enter the equation, the bad guy is already hell bent on hurting people for no reason

If the bad guy opens the door and gets bombarded with 30+ cans of food, he will be forced to retreat and hopefully leave the area. If he doesn't leave, at least you slowed him down giving the LEO's a little more time to show up.

[Grizz123]

Outside....outside the building. Kids are inside bad guy is outside. Very similar but different. Different in the fact that the bad guy is outside the building. Locked out. Can't get in. Kids are inside. Safe. Bad guy can't get to them. Kicks chat and finally goes home.

I give up. I don't know canned beans about this anyway.

How well did "locking the doors" work out for the kids in Sandy Hook?? What would prevent the bad guy from shooting out the locks and hinges to gain entry?

Dont get me wrong, I believe every layer of defense created to slow down the attacker is a good idea, BUT the kids in the classroom is the last line of defense and they should have something to defend themselves with

[Grizz123]

Ok, so then lets talk training in the use of the can as a weapon.

What is the best sized can? How many ounces 9, 40, or 45? ;P


And what kind of groups can you expect at 25 yards?

Teenagers can train in gym class and they would love it. In all the schools I've been to, I've yet to see a classroom 75' long (25 yards). That being said, if the bad guy sees 30+ objects hurled at him, he will most likely retreat to another area or wait till the bombardment ends or shoot himself out of frustration. This will give the LEO's a little more time to show up

[Grizz123]

For the life of me, I cant figure out why anyone is willing to prevent teens from defending themselves with any means available, when cornered in a deadly situation?? Please explain this to me.

[Rick]

If someone is intent on killing kids then throwing cans won't stop him. He will simply start shooting in a target rich environment. Remember, too, theses are middle school kids not 17-18 year olds. Once the first round is fired it will be utter chaos among the kids. It's a feel good approach to a life and death issue. The solution is to stop the bad guys before they enter the building and have an armed response if he does get inside. To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.

[hunter63]

For the life of me, I cant figure out why anyone is willing to prevent teens from defending themselves with any means available, when cornered in a deadly situation?? Please explain this to me.

I don't think that is anyone intention.....but the whole scenario is more to draw attention to a increased and real defenses on a real and serious situation.

Silly draws interest....or at least seemed to here.
Just my take.

[Grizz123]

If someone is intent on killing kids then throwing cans won't stop him. He will simply start shooting in a target rich environment. Remember, too, theses are middle school kids not 17-18 year olds. Once the first round is fired it will be utter chaos among the kids. It's a feel good approach to a life and death issue. The solution is to stop the bad guys before they enter the building and have an armed response if he does get inside. To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.

I agree with 98% of your statement, the part I don't agree with is the last sentence "To simply rely on throwing something is a very misguided approach.".

I never said to rely on throwing stuff, I said to use "as a last resort".

How is it a feel good approach to a life and death issue? The way I see it, its the last line of defense before being shot, a better option than sitting around waiting to get shot. After the first shot there will be chaos BUT if they have some sort of training, they may remain calm enough to have the ability to fight back. And the training could be done in gym class.

Is or will it be 100% effective, heck no!! It is a last ditch effort to slow down the bad guy, possible save some lives and give the LEO's more time to show up. Exterior mag door locks, bullet proof glass, armed teachers/guards, mace, etc... are a much better choices but they are also expensive and most schools aren't willing to put up the money. Even if they do all of the things mentioned, the bad guys will still find a way in (no security method is 100%) which is why the can toss is or should be an option.

[Rick]

I didn't ascribe those words to you. Those were my thoughts. You're probably right.

[natertot]

Grizz, you are tripping over yourself here.

No one ever said that the kids should not defend themselves. Quit telling us that is what we are saying.

Then you say not to rely on throwing stuff, but use it as a last resort. If that is the case, why not throw what is already available? Why prepare for last resort? Why not prepare for an adequate defense instead of last hope? What we are saying is if preparations are to be done, there are way better options then throwing cans. I understand these things because I am involved in planning and procedures for these types of things.

[Winnie]

Gawd there's some strange answers here.

It's simple. Shut the door make sure bad guy on opposite side to kids.
If that fails, da@n the rules it's stop the bad guy by any means. I can really see a fruitcake waiting for a classful of kids to open their bags, take out their can of (insert a product here) from their bag and attempt a launch whilst trying to hide. Yeah, that should work, expose yourself to the madman. That's really going to reduce the bodycount. Sheesh.

Yet again some liberal leftie is doing his/her best to complicate a simple situation.

[Rick]

I'm in favor of the Chinese Throwing Algebra Book.

[RangerXanatos]

I'm in favor of the Chinese Throwing Algebra Book.

I'm not going to just throw numbers out there but the Canterbury Tales might be a better book. I think a flying Chaucer would do more to stop irrational intent than a pi.

[Winnie]

I'm not going to just throw numbers out there but the Canterbury Tales might be a better book. I think a flying Chaucer would do more to stop irrational intent than a pi.

Brilliant! Had to give you some rep for that.

[Rick]

While that's true, and I don't mean to subtract from your point, don't forget that you can multiply the effects with an algebra book and divide the shooters attention between targets. That's a real plus in my algebra book.

[hunter63]

If you throw a "Civics Book" the bad guy will just fall asleep.

[MrFixIt]

If you throw a "Civics Book" the bad guy will just fall asleep.

That or an economics book...

[hunter63]

"zzzzzzzzzzz"....Huh?....What? zzzzzzzzzz

Notice who stays awake and gets good grades in E-con......You will work for him/her someday.

[Grizz123]

[QUOTE=Winnie;452701]Gawd there's some strange answers here.

It's simple. Shut the door make sure bad guy on opposite side to kids.
If that fails, da@n the rules it's stop the bad guy by any means. I can really see a fruitcake waiting for a classful of kids to open their bags, take out their can of (insert a product here) from their bag and attempt a launch whilst trying to hide. Yeah, that should work, expose yourself to the madman. That's really going to reduce the bodycount. Sheesh.

Yet again some liberal leftie is doing his/her best to complicate a simple situation.

so your simple solution, as expressed above, is for the kids to wait to get shot? And where do they hide in a classroom, behind desks? How long will it take to pile the desks into some sort of defensive manner and after they are piled up, how many bullets will they actually stop of even deflect. Do you think the bad guy will not shoot at the pile of desks? All that work will take much longer than grabbing a can to toss.

"Sheesh"?? how old are you to use a word like that?

[Grizz123]

Grizz, you are tripping over yourself here.

No one ever said that the kids should not defend themselves. Quit telling us that is what we are saying.

Then you say not to rely on throwing stuff, but use it as a last resort. If that is the case, why not throw what is already available? Why prepare for last resort? Why not prepare for an adequate defense instead of last hope? What we are saying is if preparations are to be done, there are way better options then throwing cans. I understand these things because I am involved in planning and procedures for these types of things.

Telling the kids to hide and wait to get shot, is telling them not to defend themselves

I said that throwing stuff is a last line of defense when all other barriers are breached, which history shows, breached barriers happen all the time. And throwing stuff that is readily available is great but in a classroom environment, not nearly as effective as a 16oz can of whatever.

I find it hard to believe you are involved in planning and procedures for these types of events. Do they involve kids (under 18) or adult environments?

[Rick]

Grizz...seriously....you're beating a dead horse. We get that you are in agreement with it. It's time to agree to disagree. And let's not make this personal.

[Winnie]

so your simple solution, as expressed above, is for the kids to wait to get shot? And where do they hide in a classroom, behind desks? How long will it take to pile the desks into some sort of defensive manner and after they are piled up, how many bullets will they actually stop of even deflect. Do you think the bad guy will not shoot at the pile of desks? All that work will take much longer than grabbing a can to toss.

"Sheesh"?? how old are you to use a word like that?

Now you see, you're putting words in my mouth. Please note, my second sentence, then, please note my third sentence (just in case you're having trouble with that, here they are again "Shut the door make sure bad guy on opposite side to kids.
If that fails, da@n the rules it's stop the bad guy by any means.")

And then there's this from my first post#4 "How about intruders can't get in the School in the first place......"

But hey, you read what you want.

As to how old I am, well, I'm old enough to show some respect to my friends here on WSF and substitute words like 'sheesh' for what I'd really like to say.

[natertot]

Grizz, I am agreeing with Rick on this. I am not going to try and teach you an aspect of my professional career when reading comprehension seems to be a weak trait.

I just can't believe you made a personal attack on Winnie. She is one of the sweetest ladies I have ever met. You, sir, get a major thumbs down.

[Batch]

Lets take this a different way. My neighborhood has recently had a spate of burglaries of autos. The guy was looking for soft targets. Cars that were likely unlocked.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Car-Burglar-Cops-to-300-Break-Ins-254933731.html

All you had to do was lock your door and he moved on. Not because anyone couldn't get into ANY of the locked cars. Windows are easy to pop. But, because he wanted to get as many cars as he can in the shortest time.

A shooter doesn't often shoot at targets he can't see, hear or confirm are there. He knows after the first shot is fired his time is limited and he is going to usually take visible targets of opportunity.

So, like statistics prove. Lock your doors and don't leave valuables in plain site.

The best way to survive a gun fight is to avoid a gun fight. If my grand-daughter had my Sig 226 or Glock 34 and was a Annie Oakley. If she was faced with an active shooter with a long gun. My advice to her would be to get away or hide. Do not come to the aid of others or challenge the shooter. Get the hell out or conceal yourself behind as much cover as you can find. Hide behind as much bullet resistant stuff as you can.

Now, if I could have my grand-daughter train with an AR-15 and carry a go bag and her AR everywhere. And she was faced with an active shooter. My advice to her would be to get away or hide. Do not come to the aid of others or challenge the shooter. Get the hell out or conceal yourself behind as much cover as you can find. Hide behind as much bullet resistant stuff as you can. But, get you a good line of site on the means of egress into your hiding spot and shoot till the threat is neutralized if he enter.

If she only had a can of soup. I would simply tell her to get to a better spot of concealment and cover.

I get what your saying as a last ditch effort just before you die. I'd rather spend the last couple seconds finding cover and concealment than grabbing my can. To me its not about trying to win a gun fight with a can as a last ditch effort to save my life. Its about maximizing the chances I won't ever have to put my grand-daughter in that position.

[Tokwan]

I was waiting if anyone would post that he or she would throw a Hong

[natertot]

Nah, use the Hong to improvise a slingshot. Or, in Ricks case, use it to repel down from the fourth floor........

[Winnie]

Nah, use the Hong to improvise a slingshot. Or, in Ricks case, use it to repel down from the fourth floor........

Man, you're braver than me....Have you seen where that Hong's been?

[Winnie]

Lets take this a different way. My neighborhood has recently had a spate of burglaries of autos. The guy was looking for soft targets. Cars that were likely unlocked.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Car-Burglar-Cops-to-300-Break-Ins-254933731.html

All you had to do was lock your door and he moved on. Not because anyone couldn't get into ANY of the locked cars. Windows are easy to pop. But, because he wanted to get as many cars as he can in the shortest time.

A shooter doesn't often shoot at targets he can't see, hear or confirm are there. He knows after the first shot is fired his time is limited and he is going to usually take visible targets of opportunity.

So, like statistics prove. Lock your doors and don't leave valuables in plain site.

The best way to survive a gun fight is to avoid a gun fight. If my grand-daughter had my Sig 226 or Glock 34 and was a Annie Oakley. If she was faced with an active shooter with a long gun. My advice to her would be to get away or hide. Do not come to the aid of others or challenge the shooter. Get the hell out or conceal yourself behind as much cover as you can find. Hide behind as much bullet resistant stuff as you can.

Now, if I could have my grand-daughter train with an AR-15 and carry a go bag and her AR everywhere. And she was faced with an active shooter. My advice to her would be to get away or hide. Do not come to the aid of others or challenge the shooter. Get the hell out or conceal yourself behind as much cover as you can find. Hide behind as much bullet resistant stuff as you can. But, get you a good line of site on the means of egress into your hiding spot and shoot till the threat is neutralized if he enter.

If she only had a can of soup. I would simply tell her to get to a better spot of concealment and cover.

I get what your saying as a last ditch effort just before you die. I'd rather spend the last couple seconds finding cover and concealment than grabbing my can. To me its not about trying to win a gun fight with a can as a last ditch effort to save my life. Its about maximizing the chances I won't ever have to put my grand-daughter in that position.

And we have a winner. Spot on.

[natertot]

Man, you're braver than me....Have you seen where that Hong's been?

I am still alive to write this, aren't I?!!!!!

Shot at.....Rick's hong....... Shot at...... Rick's hong That is a tough choice!:eyore:

[Rick]

Personally, I don't see the dilemma.

[MrFixIt]

New multi-use item for your PSK: A hong. :lol:

[Rick]

You can use it to filter water when you fill your canteen ya know. Well, not the fur lined ones. Those are more winter anyway.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)
инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

и�то (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/1448)264.1 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/364)книг (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/32)PERF (http://eyesvisions.com)Гоул (http://factoringfee.ru/t/961681)Bria (http://filmzones.ru/t/425269)Fisk (http://gadwall.ru/t/572832)Papu (http://gaffertape.ru/t/832381)Volo (http://gageboard.ru/t/847568)Henr (http://gagrule.ru/t/632277)Стра (http://gallduct.ru/t/848070)Цыга (http://galvanometric.ru/t/448330)Кузи (http://gangforeman.ru/t/426893)Шейн (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/851866)Jewe (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1090332)
каде (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/298726)Orph (http://gascautery.ru/t/941855)дере (http://gashbucket.ru/t/448526)Дуб� (http://gasreturn.ru/t/882343)T910 (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/559937)клей (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1159982)Кита (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/972513)де�� (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/760495)2CS2 (http://geartreating.ru/t/741217)25-0 (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/641891)бейк (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559699)Unit (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/565675)Salo (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/143980)Jame (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/358217)Gill (http://getthebounce.ru/t/158409)
факу (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/761187)Вега (http://habituate.ru/t/832877)движ (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/397615)Иллю (http://hackworker.ru/t/817810)пров (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/762037)Боро (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/808474)Gree (http://hailsquall.ru/t/315062)Neut (http://hairysphere.ru/t/560710)�ерт (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561821)Orea (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562868)�ерт (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/563166)Patr (http://haltstate.ru/t/560682)Sele (http://handcoding.ru/t/806723)трил (http://handportedhead.ru/t/918863)Home (http://handradar.ru/t/562423)
Anat (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/295469)Брок (http://hangonpart.ru/t/656764)Выхо (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557631)Шиба (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/557102)Nigh (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566577)�ерт (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/567107)�ерт (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567735)Orch (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/165624)Feli (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/601917)Крав (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/750361)печа (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/300016)Harr (http://headregulator.ru/t/664413)Гурв (http://heartofgold.ru/t/838211)Vogu (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/469598)Milt (http://heatinggas.ru/t/913300)
Aage (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/795489)Digi (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/603082)руче (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/602115)MONR (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/607724)Plan (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603831)Niki (http://jobstress.ru/t/603844)Elem (http://jogformation.ru/t/610330)VIII (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/683368)Kurt (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/925542)Delt (http://journallubricator.ru/t/615462)John (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/753614)VIII (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/774091)нове (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/774938)�тро (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/679246)Гево (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/777709)
Rich (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/742824)Zone (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610554)Corp (http://kentishglory.ru/t/784580)англ (http://kerbweight.ru/t/782092)Rusi (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606642)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/609094)Tade (http://keyserum.ru/t/795392)XVII (http://kickplate.ru/t/199722)Greg (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/662654)50-1 (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606617)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609711)деву (http://kinozones.ru/film/3896)Zone (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611295)R166 (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605494)Муро (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/845284)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/607930)Zone (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605314)изде (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/671404)Come (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1137201)Игна (http://laborracket.ru/t/497574)Само (http://labourearnings.ru/t/841495)Кудр (http://labourleasing.ru/t/834229)Dari (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/884679)Мо�к (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/862342)Марф (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/875450)треб (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/871810)�азе (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/787285)Тере (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/474962)прои (http://laggingload.ru/t/772468)�екр (http://laissezaller.ru/t/813316)
ценз (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/748633)Штей (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/673923)Fyod (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/762565)К�ро (http://lamphouse.ru/t/817411)факу (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/761216)Мои� (http://lancingdie.ru/t/664306)допо (http://landingdoor.ru/t/676815)д'Ор (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/836841)долж (http://landreform.ru/t/836834)Мо-ц (http://landuseratio.ru/t/795962)(183 (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/855957)Jona (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159889)Корн (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/151911)KY20 (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/2005)Лени (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589059)

[yellowcab]

Vest (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1030844)Elec (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453053)Sams (http://layabout.ru/shop/99465)упак (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/22074)Lamb (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/65758)Mete (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/177954)Д�ги (http://leaveword.ru/shop/144937)Fier (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/54359)Loon (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/177085)PETE (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/145346)пла� (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/46920)Кита (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/267887)9002 (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/145512)Выпу (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159119)ARAG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/612837)
нача (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/154969)анги (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1476)Norw (http://mp3lists.ru/item/3632)BALA (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/144566)�бор (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/103840)ES-0 (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/391347)�ови (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/145793)�зык (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/11646)Ever (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100413)Wind (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/123221)Thre (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/26069)Звер (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/175246)Бело (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/69926)ки�т (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/106866)DeLo (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10204)
Boll (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/97943)Chou (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/458439)Adva (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571301)Robe (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147311)Ð*ома (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/181380)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30650)корп (http://onesticket.ru/shop/378653)surr (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578782)Some (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585525)Сарт (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/200908)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204190)Fant (http://papercoating.ru/shop/580006)Пого (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684250)КурÑ� (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165614)Шват (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165683)
Иван (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1066817)XXXI (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167400)Henr (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/154078)XVII (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/153331)Соло (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/591861)разн (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/505711)Саво (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/124396)Huaw (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1070077)Mich (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/124169)�об� (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/71999)где- (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/334927)Seed (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/508619)Clau (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/621287)XVII (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/125802)(Вед (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/125532)
Fran (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/96282)Кози (http://rearchain.ru/shop/323444)Stup (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/501798)Visi (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/14017)Tube (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1046444)Kenn (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058329)�тмо (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1067109)Боча (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692190)Павл (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1199401)рабо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120598)�нап (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1303401)крат (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1034480)Шир� (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1064069)Edga (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1404649)Mill (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1407336)
Oyst (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1426950)449- (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1217642)ОÑ�ьк (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1487370)Горч (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/166326)Hell (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/246822)Цвет (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/109020)факу (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/40764)Ð*ивк (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/47315)Иллю (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398126)Кара (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/67227)KY20 (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/2005)KY20 (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/2005)KY20 (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/2005)Форм (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/460282)МоÑ�а (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/471040)
книг (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82312)�тер (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/83533)Alex (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484520)Кеже (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496305)Aeso (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1813859)wwwd (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/619960)Sara (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/619801)�фан (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/264256)авто (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/398110)Губе (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/930016)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)муль (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/460425)«Сою (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475416)