The Vulture

[The Killer Tuna]

"Panic is the vulture that sits on your shoulder"

That phrase is self explanatory, and holds a special meaning for those who spend any time off the beaten track. In the wilderness, even just being turned around for a moment, you are in a survival situation from the very start. It's a survival situation, not because you lack physical resources, but because you're mentally standing on a fine line. Step to one side of the line, and you just find your way back to knowing where you are. Step to the other, and you could plummet into the abyss that is panic, easily ending in your demise. I fear that I am one of the people who will step into the abyss.

The back story: I used to have a lot of hobbies. There was always all the outdoor stuff from a very early age, hiking, camping, canoeing, kayaking, surfing, hunting, spearfishing, and on and on… There was also motorsports. Drag cars, circuit cars, motocross, enduro, rally, 4WD trucks for off-roading, and on and on.

Years ago, there came a point where enough was enough, and I had to consolidate. It wasn’t a hard choice; I kept almost everything that had to do with the outdoors, and ditched everything else. Sleeping under the sky has always been my true passion, so that’s where I focused. Overnight hiking trips, sea kayak trips, canoe trips. Whenever and wherever. A quick trip to my introductory post will shed some light on where I come from, but suffice to say, I’m pretty good at primitive skills. If dropped where resourses are available, I’m sure I have the KSA’s (knowledge, skills, and abilities) to survive for an indefinite period of time. A big part of me longs to step off the path, and just disappear. I feel like I belong in the green. It calls to me.

Anyway, consolidation of my hobbies to the outdoors opened a whole new can of worms. I’ve always been with at least one other person while off the path. Once I dove in head first, I found that there was a lack of people who share the same enthusiasm for the green. This left me to being solo 90% of the time, and this is when I discovered that I had a problem…

I’ve gone deep (50 miles deep), and I’ve been completely turned around, and the vulture never showed its head…always when I was with someone else. Even when I’m the one who’s leading, and in charge of getting us “unlost.” Other people have been edgy, and I’m the one to talk them down, away from the abyss.

I’ve always had this belief that if you have the KSA’s to survive, and you have the resourses, then you’re never really lost. It’s impossible to be lost: You know about where you are. You know where you have to go. You know how to find out which direction that is. You know that if you have to spend the night, it’s not a big deal to build a shelter, and spend the night…can even be fun. It’s happened before. I’ve spent the night when it became too late to get out. No big deal. Even without the tools to call people to let them know you won’t be back, make fire and shelter, etc. It’s no big deal…unless panic steps up, and then it’s a big deal.

Being solo…I found that panic. It hasn’t happened, but I’ve looked into the abyss, and saw what it looks like. It hasn’t stopped me. I still go into the woods almost daily with the dogs, and camp on the weekends, but I stick to the trail. The deepest I can go straight into the jungle is about 500 meters (off path) before I tap out, get anxious, and have to head back. That’s in familiar areas.

Example: Couple of weeks back, I did a solo overnighter up in the San Bernardino Mountains. Unfamiliar terrain. At the Gray’s Peak trailhead, right on the north shore of Big Bear lake, I checked the two compasses against each other, and against the Garmin GPSmap 60CSX GPS. All good. From anywhere on the trail, all you have to do is head SSE, and you’ll eventually hit the road and lake. I had my 50L pack with all the goodies and gear to stay warm, dry, hydrated, and fed. Four miles up to the camp site, four miles back. GPS not on. Feeling very comfortable. It’s a cattle path.

About two miles up, I decided to “push” myself. I left the path and headed over to a big rock formation about 50 meters out. Sitting there for about 30 minutes, I started to become anxious to make sure the path was still there… Silly, right? So I put my pack back on and headed for what I thought was the path, but something told me that it was the wrong direction… I almost went the wrong way because I wasn’t thinking straight. I stopped myself, and thought “You went around that tree and down that little gully to get over here…go back that way.” Found my way back to the path, but I was shaken. I had almost gone the wrong direction because my anxiety didn’t allow for normal thought.

How stupid does this feel? Very. Here’s the reasons. The direction I almost went would have eventually hit the path, and it curved down and around. As soon as I realized that the path wasn’t there, I could have made my way back to the big pine I was under (landmark), and walked bearings from that point…Impossible not to find the path! And what about the SSE bearing back to the road if all else fails.? What about the cabins all over these mountains? It is impossible to become lost if you can think... Last August I did a 12 mile trail in the Manistee National Forest in Michigan with my brother (also a big outdoorsman, who goes solo in Quetico and the BWCA wilderness all the time). We weren't paying attention, and lost the path. I took a compass heading, and found it again. Like nothing. Didn't even think about it. But when I'm on my own? Different ball game.

You can see where something so dumb and simple can have bad consequences. I had everything to keep me safe and alive, and yet the vulture is so distracting, that you almost walk into the abyss.

I still go on trips with more than just me, and I’m comfortable. Even where I’m not familiar. It’s only when I’m solo, and it just doesn’t make any sense to me. Like I said before, if you’re comfortable with your KSA’s, and you have resources, it’s impossible to be lost. You just are where you are. You are here. You need to get there.

So my question here is for the guys who do a lot of solo stuff, or anyone with insight into the psychology side of survival. Were you ever like this or know someone like this? What did you or they do to overcome it?

The green calls to me every day. I need to be able walk in solo, and be comfortable.

How does one keep the vulture in the cage?

Thanks,
Matt

[Tokwan]

Frankly..please see most of my post...and u might see someone similar to you..but I have a family..and thinking of them made me very very cautious. However, I equipped myself with some knowledge to help give me a chance to stay alive. I do solo hiking and camping and I do this in Malaysia..in the equatorial rain forest.
Always find something that would give you a reason not to overdo things..for me, its my family...and I keep within my capabilities..within my knowledge..the next thing is my Siberian Cat who I love like my son..thinking of what would happen to him if I am not around...hehe..but for real.

[1stimestar]

I understand. I do most of my trekking alone too because my friends are not willing to go with me. Plus, I LOVE being alone in the wilderness. I would suggest a few different things. First, go somewhere familiar that you have already been before. Do THAT alone. Go on short trips, even just a few small day hikes by yourself. When I was first starting out I would go into Denali National Park (no trails, just back country) and get a back country permit (with all the hoops they make you jump through for safety), then just follow a river into the wilderness. That way I just had to turn around in a couple of days and follow the river back out. It really gives you a nice safety net because you always have the river so you can't get turned around. I used that time to practice with my topo maps and compass.

So do you have a fairly easy two day hike that you have been to already a couple of times with others?

Knowing to watch for the vulture and admitting it is there, is the first step to putting that sucker in a cage.

[hunter63]

Know the feeling......have had "The bird" visit me in a 80 acre piece of ground that has to be the northwest corner of the Bermuda Triangle....Or I stepped thru into a different dimension.

Seems like just human nature to me....concentrated in the DNA of survivors from very early days ...just to keep you focused and alive.
The ones that didn't have it.... have perished and lessened that DNA trait.
Kind of a "the strong, smart and careful will survive" thing.

Now add in the fact that todays gear, media, and maps....gives one the feeling that there is no way you "should get lost"....and "What is the matter with me".... when you do....so in effect you are measuring your self against the ghost of the past....And say to your self...What a Dumas.

Then there is the "bump in the night", and uncomfortable sleep....tension, little fear, lots of imagination....no sleep....By the third day, you are so tired you sleep anywhere, and just kinda "get over" a lot of the minor fears.

So rather than fear "The Vulture" (interesting, hadn't heard that before, but fits well)..Use The Bird, as your companion...knowing he's there will give you the edge.

Then again on the other hand...there are those that don't have a clue care, fear...maybe not even a brain....That seem to get along just fine...and rather that contemplating deep thought...Just go watch football or play a video game.

[Old GI]

I'd spit in the vulture's eye. .......... Frankly, if you haven't experienced fear like that, you haven't done much in life and you certainly aren't prepared when it happens. When I see the sports logo "No Fear", I chuckle.

[kyratshooter]

Such drama.

OK, you went to the woods alone, you got scared, you wet yourself a little bit.

The vulture is circling because you need a shower.

Next time bring soap.

http://www.amazon.com/Patience-Somebody-Vultures-Embossed-License/dp/images/B000MQJCHO

[hunter63]

Bring Ivory soap...it floats....too bad they dodn't make ivory on a rope.....

[kyratshooter]

Ivory on a rope?

Multipurpose kit.

Soap and a personal flotation device in one package.

[The Killer Tuna]

Such drama.

OK, you went to the woods alone, you got scared, you wet yourself a little bit.

The vulture is circling because you need a shower.

Next time bring soap.


Interesting post for a “wilderness survival” board.

Knowing that survival in a lost-in-the-wild situation is 90% mental, and that the vast majority of those who have perished in such situations, did so due to “falling down” mentally, you’d think the subject would be taken a little more seriously.

In the end, if you lose your mental capacity due to panic, it doesn’t matter if you know how to make a knife, or a gun, or a shelter…or which pack is best, or if Grylls sucks. Nothing matters if you can’t get over the first hurdle.

I was looking for serious discussion of actual wilderness survival, not more of what you can get from any of the hundreds of morons on Youtube making survival videos or gear reviews from the deep wilderness of their back yards.

The only way out is through… See ya in the woods, or on the ocean.

[Tokwan]

Aww..yes we can be serious, however we are also known to bring some sense of humor , to lighten up the seriousness...life is short!

[Tokwan]

I would like to add, the lack of knowledge on how to survive when we are lost, can lead to your downfall. This contributes to you having lack of mental strength or capacity. However, armed with the knowledge to survive, our mental strength automatically becomes strong....with the knowledge and preparation, our chances to survive is higher. So bottom line, learn, practice and be prepared.

[kyratshooter]

Interesting post for a “wilderness survival” board.

Knowing that survival in a lost-in-the-wild situation is 90% mental, and that the vast majority of those who have perished in such situations, did so due to “falling down” mentally, you’d think the subject would be taken a little more seriously.

In the end, if you lose your mental capacity due to panic, it doesn’t matter if you know how to make a knife, or a gun, or a shelter…or which pack is best, or if Grylls sucks. Nothing matters if you can’t get over the first hurdle.

I was looking for serious discussion of actual wilderness survival, not more of what you can get from any of the hundreds of morons on Youtube making survival videos or gear reviews from the deep wilderness of their back yards.

The only way out is through… See ya in the woods, or on the ocean.

Mysticism and BS is not going to save us either, and that 2,000 word OP really disappeared fast!

Sorry we are not up to your standards.

[hunter63]

Interesting post for a “wilderness survival” board.

Knowing that survival in a lost-in-the-wild situation is 90% mental, and that the vast majority of those who have perished in such situations, did so due to “falling down” mentally, you’d think the subject would be taken a little more seriously.

In the end, if you lose your mental capacity due to panic, it doesn’t matter if you know how to make a knife, or a gun, or a shelter…or which pack is best, or if Grylls sucks. Nothing matters if you can’t get over the first hurdle.

I was looking for serious discussion of actual wilderness survival, not more of what you can get from any of the hundreds of morons on Youtube making survival videos or gear reviews from the deep wilderness of their back yards.

The only way out is through… See ya in the woods, or on the ocean.

Aw man.....Mr.Tuna....Ya didn't have to get all huffy.
You must that dissertation save under, ....This is soooo cool I'm gonna, wow anyone that reads it....and be a Hero, as no one has ever thought to "suck it up" till morning.

So, what's up? a dissenting voice? ...Your idea of a discussion is you talking? and everyone else listening?....That a statement, not a discussion....... so you might have to take the bird and shop it around some more?.....

Too bad

As far as seeing me in the woods or ocean....I will be out there, trying to enjoy the world, not just survive it .......

[Winnie]

You mean I missed it? Holy Carp, you guys have got to slow down, at least give me a chance to read the op before the handbag throwing begins!

[hunter63]

Well Winnie was a really out there dissertation on things that go bump in the night and panic.

I guess we were all supposed to give it all sort of likes, atta boys, that was so cools, and such....but when even a slight disagreement showed up, pulled down the whole thing.

Seemed rather thin skinned and fast to back off.....maybe he decided we don't except BS very well, ....being old, grumpy and have been there.
Or the mushrooms wore off.

[Rick]

Matt,

Whether you stay or go is up to you but we don't delete posts. I've restored it. Your sarcasm and attitude says a lot about you as a person.

[1stimestar]

A few of us DID spend time and thought on a reply and apparently they weren't good enough. What ever, good luck out in the woods cupcake.

[hunter63]

"Panic is the vulture that sits on your shoulder"

That phrase is self explanatory, and holds a special meaning for those who spend any time off the beaten track. In the wilderness, even just being turned around for a moment, you are in a survival situation from the very start. It's a survival situation, not because you lack physical resources, but because you're mentally standing on a fine line. Step to one side of the line, and you just find your way back to knowing where you are. Step to the other, and you could plummet into the abyss that is panic, easily ending in your demise. I fear that I am one of the people who will step into the abyss.

The back story: I used to have a lot of hobbies. There was always all the outdoor stuff from a very early age, hiking, camping, canoeing, kayaking, surfing, hunting, spearfishing, and on and on… There was also motorsports. Drag cars, circuit cars, motocross, enduro, rally, 4WD trucks for off-roading, and on and on.

Years ago, there came a point where enough was enough, and I had to consolidate. It wasn’t a hard choice; I kept almost everything that had to do with the outdoors, and ditched everything else. Sleeping under the sky has always been my true passion, so that’s where I focused. Overnight hiking trips, sea kayak trips, canoe trips. Whenever and wherever. A quick trip to my introductory post will shed some light on where I come from, but suffice to say, I’m pretty good at primitive skills. If dropped where resourses are available, I’m sure I have the KSA’s (knowledge, skills, and abilities) to survive for an indefinite period of time. A big part of me longs to step off the path, and just disappear. I feel like I belong in the green. It calls to me.

Anyway, consolidation of my hobbies to the outdoors opened a whole new can of worms. I’ve always been with at least one other person while off the path. Once I dove in head first, I found that there was a lack of people who share the same enthusiasm for the green. This left me to being solo 90% of the time, and this is when I discovered that I had a problem…

I’ve gone deep (50 miles deep), and I’ve been completely turned around, and the vulture never showed its head…always when I was with someone else. Even when I’m the one who’s leading, and in charge of getting us “unlost.” Other people have been edgy, and I’m the one to talk them down, away from the abyss.

I’ve always had this belief that if you have the KSA’s to survive, and you have the resourses, then you’re never really lost. It’s impossible to be lost: You know about where you are. You know where you have to go. You know how to find out which direction that is. You know that if you have to spend the night, it’s not a big deal to build a shelter, and spend the night…can even be fun. It’s happened before. I’ve spent the night when it became too late to get out. No big deal. Even without the tools to call people to let them know you won’t be back, make fire and shelter, etc. It’s no big deal…unless panic steps up, and then it’s a big deal.

Being solo…I found that panic. It hasn’t happened, but I’ve looked into the abyss, and saw what it looks like. It hasn’t stopped me. I still go into the woods almost daily with the dogs, and camp on the weekends, but I stick to the trail. The deepest I can go straight into the jungle is about 500 meters (off path) before I tap out, get anxious, and have to head back. That’s in familiar areas.

Example: Couple of weeks back, I did a solo overnighter up in the San Bernardino Mountains. Unfamiliar terrain. At the Gray’s Peak trailhead, right on the north shore of Big Bear lake, I checked the two compasses against each other, and against the Garmin GPSmap 60CSX GPS. All good. From anywhere on the trail, all you have to do is head SSE, and you’ll eventually hit the road and lake. I had my 50L pack with all the goodies and gear to stay warm, dry, hydrated, and fed. Four miles up to the camp site, four miles back. GPS not on. Feeling very comfortable. It’s a cattle path.

About two miles up, I decided to “push” myself. I left the path and headed over to a big rock formation about 50 meters out. Sitting there for about 30 minutes, I started to become anxious to make sure the path was still there… Silly, right? So I put my pack back on and headed for what I thought was the path, but something told me that it was the wrong direction… I almost went the wrong way because I wasn’t thinking straight. I stopped myself, and thought “You went around that tree and down that little gully to get over here…go back that way.” Found my way back to the path, but I was shaken. I had almost gone the wrong direction because my anxiety didn’t allow for normal thought.

How stupid does this feel? Very. Here’s the reasons. The direction I almost went would have eventually hit the path, and it curved down and around. As soon as I realized that the path wasn’t there, I could have made my way back to the big pine I was under (landmark), and walked bearings from that point…Impossible not to find the path! And what about the SSE bearing back to the road if all else fails.? What about the cabins all over these mountains? It is impossible to become lost if you can think... Last August I did a 12 mile trail in the Manistee National Forest in Michigan with my brother (also a big outdoorsman, who goes solo in Quetico and the BWCA wilderness all the time). We weren't paying attention, and lost the path. I took a compass heading, and found it again. Like nothing. Didn't even think about it. But when I'm on my own? Different ball game.

You can see where something so dumb and simple can have bad consequences. I had everything to keep me safe and alive, and yet the vulture is so distracting, that you almost walk into the abyss.

I still go on trips with more than just me, and I’m comfortable. Even where I’m not familiar. It’s only when I’m solo, and it just doesn’t make any sense to me. Like I said before, if you’re comfortable with your KSA’s, and you have resources, it’s impossible to be lost. You just are where you are. You are here. You need to get there.

So my question here is for the guys who do a lot of solo stuff, or anyone with insight into the psychology side of survival. Were you ever like this or know someone like this? What did you or they do to overcome it?

The green calls to me every day. I need to be able walk in solo, and be comfortable.

How does one keep the vulture in the cage?

Thanks,
Matt

Oh, You mean this one Rick....well seems like its back.....Anyway.

[backpacker3]

I read the OP but I wasn't really sure what too say about it. I don't think it was dramatic, and there was a valid question there but I don't have much experience in that area after some bought though I think I may have something to contribute.

I'm a cautious person by nature so I can understand that kind of panic that was talked about, how it feels and how it can cloud your judgement, but I've trained to force myself to remain logical so I don't really have that problem anymore. It can be done but it is very much a mental game, preventing the natural physical responses to panic that your body sets in motion can be almost impossible, the adrenaline rush, perspiration, shaky hands, rapid breathing.The one you have to get under control though is breathing, don't make any decisions until until you have a normal breath rate I don't know why but it helps.

Panic itself though is nearly all mental the physical responses are brought about by the mental side of it and are nothing more than an attempt to force you to fight or flee, the trick to it though is to do neither panic doesn't lead to rational behavior so you have to learn to force the panic to subside before you take action. The best way of doing that is to do nothing, if you experience panic but instead of running to somewhere you feel safe, just sit down and wait for it to subside your logical side will take over and you'll see that you did nothing, even when you may have wanted nothing else but to run or whatever it is and you are completely fine it starts becoming easier and easier to push through that panic.

I don't think that there is a cage for the vulture, it does serve a purpose in some situations sometimes you do need that fight or flight instinct. The key is is being able to ignore it when it can cause a danger to you.

[Winnie]

Ahhh now see.
Well, having asked about the op, it seems only polite to reply.
Having never been in a survival situation, I really couldn't comment on how a person would or could react. Everyone is different and what works for one person may not for another, so there's no real way of being definitive about a coping mechanism.

I find running round in ever decreasing circles screaming like the girl I am relieves any panic, so if there was any Vulture, it surely wouldn't stick around through that racket. Just sayin'

[Tokwan]

Unfortunately, we don't see any vultures in Malaysia, Eagles? Yes we do have them ( someone is really going to shoot me down )...Anyway, as I have said, when one has adequate knowledge on survival skills, one usually doesn't panic. That is why one need to practice S.T.O.P....now don't say this is bull****. This has its advantages. When you S (it means sit and not s*it)...the person facing the situation will have time to be calm. In my classes and when I taught my two sons (they are better with survival skill than I am), I told them to sit, read the survival handbook or guidelines before thinking of what to do. If you are a smoker, smoke! If you have coffee in your flask, drink it. If you those nice strong drink in that almost flat flask which you keep in you inner pocket of your jacket, I would love that.
Once you are calm, everything comes back to you...all that you have learnt, all that you have practiced, what tools that you have, what you should do...this was proven when my son was lost with his lecturer and teammates at Kedah Peak...eventhough he wasn't leading the hike that day, during survival, he led the survival steps and activities....he never spoke about any vulture....he did see a pair of Hornbills...(its a bird...not a rhino)

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[yellowcab]

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увед (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98248)Prad (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/560629)Fris (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571612)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147737)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/200428)Jewe (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/147347)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/469566)Ð�нто (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/579746)вузо (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/681053)рабо (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/203243)Седл (http://palmberry.ru/shop/259727)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/581089)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/685200)Ушен (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1166541)Иллю (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1166621)
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ребе (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1482591)авто (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1459713)Михе (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1492788)Ð*гне (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/186688)Пушк (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/251018)возр (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/304200)olli (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/109231)Лунк (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/398275)Изот (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/399237)Rowl (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/450524)Siem (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/96)Siem (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/96)Siem (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/96)Петр (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/477110)Чуко (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/489096)
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[yellowcab]

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�айт (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)�айт (http://jacketedwall.ru)�айт (http://japanesecedar.ru)�айт (http://jibtypecrane.ru)�айт (http://jobabandonment.ru)�айт (http://jobstress.ru)�айт (http://jogformation.ru)�айт (http://jointcapsule.ru)�айт (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)�айт (http://journallubricator.ru)�айт (http://juicecatcher.ru)�айт (http://junctionofchannels.ru)�айт (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)�айт (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)�айт (http://kaposidisease.ru)
�айт (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)�айт (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)�айт (http://kentishglory.ru)�айт (http://kerbweight.ru)�айт (http://kerrrotation.ru)�айт (http://keymanassurance.ru)�айт (http://keyserum.ru)�айт (http://kickplate.ru)�айт (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)�айт (http://kilowattsecond.ru)�айт (http://kingweakfish.ru)�айт (http://kinozones.ru)�айт (http://kleinbottle.ru)�айт (http://kneejoint.ru)�айт (http://knifesethouse.ru)
�айт (http://knockonatom.ru)�айт (http://knowledgestate.ru)�айт (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)�айт (http://labeledgraph.ru)�айт (http://laborracket.ru)�айт (http://labourearnings.ru)�айт (http://labourleasing.ru)�айт (http://laburnumtree.ru)�айт (http://lacingcourse.ru)�айт (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)�айт (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)�айт (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)�айт (http://ladletreatediron.ru)�айт (http://laggingload.ru)�айт (http://laissezaller.ru)
�айт (http://lambdatransition.ru)�айт (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)�айт (http://lammasshoot.ru)�айт (http://lamphouse.ru)�айт (http://lancecorporal.ru)�айт (http://lancingdie.ru)�айт (http://landingdoor.ru)�айт (http://landmarksensor.ru)�айт (http://landreform.ru)�айт (http://landuseratio.ru)�айт (http://languagelaboratory.ru)�айт (http://largeheart.ru)�айт (http://lasercalibration.ru)�айт (http://laserlens.ru)�айт (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

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