Black Powder Rifles and The Apocalypse [Archive]

alaskabushman

07-16-2014, 08:32 PM

Hmmm, good question. Of course whenever you suggest shooting smokeless powder in a black powder gun there is usually only one type of advice...DONT DO IT!
In a survival situation your main purpose is just that, to survive. Risking injury on the possibility of a couple shots out of your gun would not really be worth it. If times have been hard for a while, shouldn't your hunter/gather skills have improved to the point you don't really need a loud noisy gun with just a couple shots?
Making blackpowder is a tedious and pretty exacting process, getting the right ratio of charcoal, saltpeter and sulfur is not always easy without the proper recipes. Unless you live next to a volcano or in Yellowstone finding natural deposits of sulfur are very slim. Which means you have to boil down animal (or human) feces in order to get it. Such an unsanitary practice could also kill you in a survival situation.

To answer your question though, I think you MAYBE could get away with smokeless powder in a smoke pole. The issue I see here is how to measure the powder. As a reloader I know the difference of just a grain or two can mean the difference between happy shooting and a ruined gun at best, death at worst. As a black powder shooter I also know that black powder is much more forgiving. You can pretty much just dump an approximate amount of powder down the barrel and it will work.
If we're talking modern muzzle loader, then If you were SUPER careful you might pull it off. If you had great-great-great grandpas squirrel gun you would probably blow it up since the steel would be much lower quality and strength.

Personally I don't think the risk would be worth the minor gains of a couple shots, I would say an improvised weapon would be a much better choice. A bow, spear or sling with a bit of practice can be effective. Even a crossbow would be better.
Best of all set traps.

hunter63

07-16-2014, 08:49 PM

Been doing a little research on this....and form some reason I can't play you tube vides now.

I do have to agree w/ABM .... "don't" ...not worth it and you would still need a primer of some sort.

I checking further there seems to be a different opinion if you are talking BP cartridge or muzzle loaders.

Some discussion
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/shooting-black-powder-guns-with-smokeless-powder-ammo.79346/

pgvoutdoors

07-16-2014, 09:13 PM

Good responses, please continue the comments. I feel this might be something people may resort to for hunting or self defense.

alaskabushman

07-16-2014, 09:37 PM

Good responses, please continue the comments. I feel this might be something people may resort to for hunting or self defense.

For hunting maybe, but self defense against more than one assailant with a muzzleloader would not be much of a resistance.

You would be better off cramming that thing full of smokeless powder, letting them "accidentally" disarm you and hope they try to shoot you with it! :D okay maybe not the greatest idea...

hunter63

07-16-2014, 10:06 PM

I think I would practice up with a spear, bow or atlatl,.....they were the standard hunting tools for a whole lot longer than any kind of firearm.

Now for grins....shot gun powder and pistol powders can be interchanged...still have that nasty primer problem.
So to me, flintlocks make the most sense....but then you will need Black Powder.

kyratshooter

07-16-2014, 11:53 PM

OK, Apocalyptic scenarios are not my thing but bare with me. Imagine a situation that leaves you out of ammo for your firearm. (This applies to people that do not live on top of an ammo dump.) You also own a black powder rifle but you have used all of your powder. Now you have come across some shotgun shells and a few rifle rounds, but none that will work in your firearm. Questions: Could the gun powder be adapted to be used in your black powder rifle? Would it be easier to scrounge the ingredients to make black powder? Could you make bullets when needed? Remember, times have been hard for a long time, the availability of anything for firearms is scarce.

I do not consider this an apocalyptic scenario, I consider it the scenario of a nation under strict gun and/or ammunition control.

I have already abandoned the .22lr in favor of .22 caliber reloadable centerfire cartridges using cast lead and shotgun powders as propellants in real time, today.

The OP indicates that you have another firearm and a BP rifle.

I am going to offer a secondary opinion.

Forget using the smokeless shells in the BP gun. I have seen the results of that first hand. Of course I only saw the ones that blew up and not the ones that got away with it! The ones I did see were totaled and usually injured the shooter and included a name change like One Eyed Joe or Stubby.

Instead, consider using the primers, powder and lead to reload cases for the rifle you have (most reloaders already own bullet pullers and the rest of the gear needed), or improvising a gun to shoot the shotgun shells you have found. (Slam-gun instructions are on You-tube.)

BP will easily be made from commercial stump dissolver, home made charcoal and sulfur from the garden center. All kinds of instructions on the internet and in any old style hard copy encyclopedia.

crashdive123

07-17-2014, 06:30 AM

Meh. That's why I prepare now.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark032.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark032.jpg.html)

Rick

07-17-2014, 06:46 AM

Good thing you stopped smoking. Whew.

hunter63

07-17-2014, 02:16 PM

So you have a cannon?

Rick

07-17-2014, 03:42 PM

Wait. I thought everyone had a cannon. Don't tell me they outlawed those in Wisconsin too?

crashdive123

07-17-2014, 04:32 PM

So you have a cannon?

As a matter of fact.....

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark030.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark030.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark041.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinchStatePark041.jpg.html)

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinch150.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Fort%20Clinch/FortClinch150.jpg.html)

hunter63

07-17-2014, 05:28 PM

Wait. I thought everyone had a cannon. Don't tell me they outlawed those in Wisconsin too?

Yeah, we all do have them in Wisconsin...was wondering about Florida....Mine shoot Coors "Silver Bullet" alum. cans full of cement.....

We use they for turkey hunting....3 oz BP and about a pound of #4 shot.....covers the whole ridge with one shot.

Rick

07-17-2014, 05:43 PM

Now I'll bet that gets confusing.

"Duck!"

"Wait. I thought we were hunting turkey."

Crash, there's nothing worse than trying to figure out which weapon you want to shoot on any given day.

"Lemme see. Do I want to set of 28? Nay, maybe 29.

hunter63

07-17-2014, 05:46 PM

More like...."Fire in the Hole"..spssst...KaaaBoooom.

Need to find a caisson to carry it.

Rick

07-17-2014, 06:01 PM

Or a peon. Whichever.

kyratshooter

07-17-2014, 08:26 PM

Deleted smart-A post including quote.

slipshift

07-17-2014, 08:27 PM

Mossberg advertises a BP rifle that can handle smokeless powder, any other muzzleloader is likely to blow. It wouldn't help to reduce the charge, the pressure would be too much, especially since smokeless powder has a much faster pressure spike. The steel in even modern muzzleloaders can't handle it. Check out a black powder forum, this question come up a lot, often with gristly pictures.

hunter63

07-17-2014, 08:46 PM

It's just best to not do it........
Trick is to have a Handi Rifle or shotgun barrels to handle any possible load you come across.......
So the minimum you should have is .22, .223. 30-30, 308, 30-06, .357, .44. 45 lc.....and maybe a .7.62 X 39....being the most popular in rifle and pistol calibers.....and of course 12ga. 20 ag, 410 in shot gun.

Scrounge some ammo,.... switch barrels,..... back in business.

Lamewolf

07-18-2014, 07:14 AM

Smokeless powder + muzzleloaders can equal disaster ! Smokeless powders generate greater pressures than blackpowder does in most cases. But I hear there are modern muzzleloaders designed for certain smokeless powders now. General rule though is don't do it.

Rick

07-18-2014, 07:40 AM

Phil - I can see this very scenario happening. A tornado, hurricane or earthquake wrecks havoc on a town or small region. It happens every year to some extent. You survive and start picking through what's left of your home and you find a firearm or two but no ammo. Even your safe is gone or buried under a pile of debris. You might have a real concern about looting depending on the circumstances and where you are located. I probably would not around here but others might. It seems to me the best thing to do is keep both firearms and ammo in a second or even third secure location. Perhaps at a relative's home miles away, at a storage facility you rent some distance away or even in a cache if you are comfortable with that. That would ensure you have both firearms and ammo. You'll have enough to worry about with rebuilding your life. There's no need to worry about safety and security at the same time.

Another alternative would be to acquire a loaner and ammo from friends or family for a short time.

Real world scenarios.

alaskabushman

07-18-2014, 09:35 AM

pgvoutdoors

07-19-2014, 10:45 AM

Thanks for sharing your responses, I thought this may be a good thread to have on the forum. I have no information to believe it would be safe or practical to attempt this. I know how people think and it needed to be addressed.

hunter63

07-19-2014, 04:50 PM

One option would be to pick up a cheap single or double barrel shotgun. then purchase one of the conversion plugs that allows you to use #209 primers which essentially converts your shotgun into a muzzleloader. There, now you have a front stuffer capable of handling smokeless powder, and even shotgun shells should you find them.

The convertible plugs are made to shoot BP in a modern shotgun.....and can be done......but not the other way around.
You still need a primer and powder.....
BP is a whole harder to find, as it will be in bulk, not a already loaded cartridge.

So although it sounds logical.....

I have ammo, but no gun that fits,....and a BP rifle/shotgun, with a convertible insert or made that way.
This is sounding like an in-line.

I dump the smokeless powder into a modern ML (should be OK right?)....some are actually made for using smokeless powder.....and touch it off with a #209 (shotgun primer)

Everything would have to be exactly right, modern steel muzzleloader made for it,... powder that works (any idea how many options that makes?)...and of course primers.....

Images
https://www.google.com/search?q=shooting+smokeless+powder+in+muzzleloader&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ttjKU5iTE5GgyAS954J4&ved=0CAkQ_AUoBA&biw=1093&bih=498

Best to just put this out of your mind as a bad deal.....

randyt

07-19-2014, 05:02 PM

Years ago I came across a inline 22 caliber muzzle loader that the guy used smokeless as a propellant. I have been reluctant in the past to bring this up in concern it may be taken the wrong way and someone would use smokeless in their muzzle loader.

alaskabushman

07-19-2014, 05:19 PM

The convertible plugs are made to shoot BP in a modern shotgun.....and can be done......but not the other way around.
You still need a primer and powder.....
BP is a whole harder to find, as it will be in bulk, not a already loaded cartridge.

So although it sounds logical.....

I have ammo, but no gun that fits,....and a BP rifle/shotgun, with a convertible insert or made that way.
This is sounding like an in-line.

I dump the smokeless powder into a modern ML (should be OK right?)....some are actually made for using smokeless powder.....and touch it off with a #209 (shotgun primer)

Everything would have to be exactly right, modern steel muzzleloader made for it,... powder that works (any idea how many options that makes?)...and of course primers.....

Images
https://www.google.com/search?q=shooting+smokeless+powder+in+muzzleloader&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ttjKU5iTE5GgyAS954J4&ved=0CAkQ_AUoBA&biw=1093&bih=498

Best to just put this out of your mind as a bad deal.....

You are correct in all. My only point really was that a modern shotgun with a #209 conversion plug would turn it into an in-line blackpowder shotgun, not to be used with slugs. The steel the shotgun was made of, being modern, would be capable (steel and construction wise) of handling smokeless powder, since that's what modern shotshells use. Yes, you would have to get EXACTLY the right amount of smokeless powder, I was thinking a reloading scoop from Lee might be a good way to stay consistent. Would I do this? No, not with smokeless. I am kind of intrigued about the idea of turning my old Damascus double barrel into a blackpowder shotgun.

http://www.gunadapters.com/12-gauge-to-209-muzzle-loader-adapter/

hunter63

07-19-2014, 05:32 PM

Keep in mind that smokeless power is in a shell case....not loose in a barrel.....

Our old buddy Dave C has a vid out using a cut off 12 ga shell in a SS shotgun loaded with black powder.....and I really question that....and gives me the willies every time I think about it.
He cuts the plastic shell off..... as the BP would melt the plastic.....the shell being like your adaptor, holding your primer..

I will stay away from using smokeless in a BP gun.....do do use BP in a modern gun....is a shell casing.....45 lc being one.

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yellowcab

12-28-2025, 04:40 PM

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yellowcab

12-28-2025, 04:41 PM

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yellowcab

03-27-2026, 11:35 PM

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yellowcab

03-27-2026, 11:36 PM

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yellowcab

06-07-2026, 09:43 AM

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yellowcab

06-07-2026, 09:45 AM

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