This world has gone crazy.

[2dumb2kwit]

Is this what this world is coming to? A person calls police. Tells them that a man is sitting on a near by porch, and tells them that he's drunk and has a gun. When the 911 dispatcher asked him what the guy was doing, he said " he's just waving it back and forth. When asked what kind of gun the guy had, the caller said that he didn't know. It's small.

Turns out, the drunk was waiting for his friend to get home, and was passing time by watering his lawn. The so called gun, was the nozzle of the water hose.

When the police got there, they shot and killed the man, claiming that he pointed what turned out to be the water hose, at an officer. They never even told him to drop it.


http://www.realfarmacy.com/man-shot-dead-by-police-while-watering-neighbors-lawn/#YgxJJA2v0jowfrgv.01

[BENESSE]

The caller was obviously a paranoid schizophrenic. That's what happens when you try to sweep mental illness under the rug.

[LowKey]

And your explanation for the police response?
By the way, this occured in 2010.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/04/local/la-me-ln-water-nozzle-shooting-20130404
Shot twelve times.
The city paid out $6.5mil for that little error in judgment.

[WolfVanZandt]

The police were also obviously paranoid schizophrenics.

Actually, all those dystopic movies we used to watch and get a thrill out of? We're just about there.

[BENESSE]

And your explanation for the police response?


We all make mistakes.
(btw...I'm just kidding here and in post 2...of course, it's outrageous!)

[medic68]

murdered by the state. nothing to see here folks move along :thumbdown:

[Desert Rat!]

I used to work in Long Beach, it is crazy and a mean place, thats why I haven't been back there in 30 + years,... It's Madness .

[Rick]

You are a cop. You're dispatched on a call about a man with a gun. It's night, it's dark, your view of the subject is obstructed by stair bolsters and rails. The subject points something at you that looks like a gun. You fire. You made a mistake. Yeah, murdered by the state. It would be nice if every cop were perfect and never made a mistake. Unfortunately, that's not how life works. If the guy had stood up, dropped the hose and walked out to meet them he might be drinking beer this week-end. Maybe he made some mistakes too.

[2dumb2kwit]

You are a cop. You're dispatched on a call about a man with a gun. It's night, it's dark, your view of the subject is obstructed by stair bolsters and rails. The subject points something at you that looks like a gun. You fire. You made a mistake. Yeah, murdered by the state. It would be nice if every cop were perfect and never made a mistake. Unfortunately, that's not how life works. If the guy had stood up, dropped the hose and walked out to meet them he might be drinking beer this week-end. Maybe he made some mistakes too.

Who's to say that he wouldn't have, if someone had said, "Police. Drop it!"?

[Rick]

Who's to say they didn't? If police are walking toward me I'm walking toward them with my hands in clear view. Some mistakes don't get a do over.

[2dumb2kwit]

Who's to say they didn't?

Witness's .......and then the police admitted it.

Did you read the link that Lowkey posted?
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/04/local/la-me-ln-water-nozzle-shooting-20130404

[Rick]

Nope. Missed it. I was just trying to put myself in a responding officer's place. It looks a bit different from their point of view than it does reading the articles. Hardly state sanctioned murder no matter how you dice it.

[welderguy]

First thing, It was a huge mistake, but unless you have been in a high risk situation or have had a firearm pointed at you , its hard to understand the emotions associated with that.
As a LEO or even a civilian that carries, when faced with a potential threat of deadly force ( I.E a possible gun) the first thought in anyones mind is OH CRAP he is pointing a gun at me, not hhhmmm I wonder if thats a gun let me ask him.

Its hard for people that have never been in a situation like this to make judgments, there is a string of events happening in your mind and with your body that is just crazy. rapid heart beat, dry mouth, tunnel vision, the world seems to slow down, things around you are either a blur or in slow motion, muscle memory and training take over and you react.

It is a sad lose and a great mistake that happened, I would like to have seen a very different outcome, I feel for the family, but I also feel for the LEO's, they have to live with what they did for the rest of there lives.

[Batch]

Maybe we should ban law enforcement from having shotguns and hand guns with large capacity magazines. Nope... Maybe all hose nozzles should be shaped more like animal balloons or something.

Let me ask this question. Had the neighbor who saw him waving that little six shooter around. I guy who we can assume had none of the training that the law enforcement officers get. If he had shot and killed this guy, do you think he would have just walked?

Do you think he should walk?

[welderguy]

Maybe we should ban law enforcement from having shotguns and hand guns with large capacity magazines. Nope... Maybe all hose nozzles should be shaped more like animal balloons or something.

Let me ask this question. Had the neighbor who saw him waving that little six shooter around. I guy who we can assume had none of the training that the law enforcement officers get. If he had shot and killed this guy, do you think he would have just walked?

Do you think he should walk?

Just from what Ive read, I think the whole situation should of been handled differently, There is too much media hype about guns, LEOS are trained diffrently than they were 10 years ago, Most training on firearm confrontation now, is SHOOT first, as wrong as that sounds it is true, Do I think the LEOS should be prosecuted, Yes,But only for the LEO that fired first. If the following criteria was not met , in direct line of fire if it were a firearm, civilians in line of fire if it was a firearm, a direct threat to the LEO or a civilian.

As for them giving a verbal command, there are a lot more LEO involved shootings that happen with no verbal warnings, If a fellow LEO yells "GUN" someone is getting shot, if that LEO made a mistake it should be his @SS on the line.

[Sourdough]

I say........the family should get (Only ONE) free shot at the A-hole that called 9-11 using a shotgun from, say 6" to 10".

[WolfVanZandt]

I'll give you my take on it. It took me almost three months to get my driver's license renewed because Social Security had my birth date wrong. The local post master has decided that his post office will no longer deliver mail to physical addresses and when that got a lot of complaints, he softened it to, "We will deliver if you have a mail box" but they're still shipping my packages back to the senders. I hear that other areas are having similar problems. I am aware of a lot of robberies in Selma; none have had their goods recovered (in 20 years). A friend out in the middle of no where in Georgia has a generator stolen and, within two weeks, he has it back - they found it down in South Georgia. Frequent errors in the utilities and in the payroll office and in just about every other organization I have to deal with. And then I read all the news which sound pretty much like what I am experiencing.

Things are falling apart at a different rate in different places, but they're falling apart everywhere. So, when I hear that someone was shot by accident by a policeman, I line it up with my experience and I'm pretty much primed to think "incompetence." That's probably pre-judgement; it's most likely over-generalization, but probably not by much, and my frustration is justified.

Yes, police are human, but they have to be held to a higher standard - peoples' lives hinge on that. That's the core truth of professionalism. I'm a professional and I understood the nature of the animal when I got involved. If someone is damaged by my handling of a situation, I am suspect. If a plumber is incompetent, damage is restricted to a fairly narrow range and then people stop using them. The damage caused by an incompetent professional tends to be of a much more far reaching nature and has much more drastic consequences.

I would want to understand (rationally) before making a binding judgment on a situation of this order, but I don't feel overly motivated to be understanding (emotionally).

[welderguy]

I'll give you my take on it. It took me almost three months to get my driver's license renewed because Social Security had my birth date wrong. The local post master has decided that his post office will no longer deliver mail to physical addresses and when that got a lot of complaints, he softened it to, "We will deliver if you have a mail box" but they're still shipping my packages back to the senders. I hear that other areas are having similar problems. I am aware of a lot of robberies in Selma; none have had their goods recovered (in 20 years). A friend out in the middle of no where in Georgia has a generator stolen and, within two weeks, he has it back - they found it down in South Georgia. Frequent errors in the utilities and in the payroll office and in just about every other organization I have to deal with. And then I read all the news which sound pretty much like what I am experiencing.

Things are falling apart at a different rate in different places, but they're falling apart everywhere. So, when I hear that someone was shot by accident by a policeman, I line it up with my experience and I'm pretty much primed to think "incompetence." That's probably pre-judgement; it's most likely over-generalization, but probably not by much, and my frustration is justified.

Yes, police are human, but they have to be held to a higher standard - peoples' lives hinge on that. That's the core truth of professionalism. I'm a professional and I understood the nature of the animal when I got involved. If someone is damaged by my handling of a situation, I am suspect. If a plumber is incompetent, damage is restricted to a fairly narrow range and then people stop using them. The damage caused by an incompetent professional tends to be of a much more far reaching nature and has much more drastic consequences.

I would want to understand (rationally) before making a binding judgment on a situation of this order, but I don't feel overly motivated to be understanding (emotionally).

Good points, but I fail to see how this relates to a high stress high risk profession. I don't see LEO falling apart what I see is society falling apart and LEO's overreacting to it or reacting accordingly. Accountability is the Key, and you are right the LEO that fired the first shot is accountable and should be held in such.

[Desert Rat!]

And the officer fired two rounds at suspect.

[Rick]

Seriously. Have you guys studied world history? American history? Have you ever heard of Al Capone and organized crime in the U.S., slavery, Battle of Blair Mountain, the Civil War, the Pullman Strike, the Scopes Monkey Trial, Wounded Knee, Witch hunts, Dust Bowl Days, the treatment of America's indigenous peoples, Japanese internment during WWII? Anything ring a bell? We have it so cushy today. If we had to endure 1/10 of what past generations have had to put up with I think most of us would have given up long before now. It's just one more day in America.

[Batch]

It's just one more day in America.

Unfortunately, it is. But, that doesn't mean it has to be the case tomorrow.

Last year a contingency of law enforcement officers opened fire on an unarmed man whose vehicle had stopped and no intention or reason was given for the officers actions. Immediately after the incident they confiscated and destroyed phones rather than render aid to the people that they had shot in the cross fire. We did nothing.

Like Katrina when the cops grabbed guns in unlawful searches and seizures because they felt the area was unsafe because of criminal activity! our greatest action was against law enforcement officers who murdered people intentionally. People they knew were unarmed and posed no threat. But, whose skin was the wrong color.

The guy we have been talking about was under the scope of a sniper. I can't see how a guy who was sitting cross legged on the ground posed that immediate of a threat even if he had a firearm. The sniper could have called the shots.

I am not trying to persecute these two cops. I wasn't there. But, tomorrow doesn't have to be just like today and that guy doesn't have to have died in vain. When a cop dies everybody learns and adapts. But, when a guy with a water nozzle is shot down, or a kid with an airsoft gun gets shot by a cop, they just should have known better?

Kool aid ain't my cup of tea...

[Desert Rat!]

Seriously. Have you guys studied world history? American history? Have you ever heard of Al Capone and organized crime in the U.S., slavery, Battle of Blair Mountain, the Civil War, the Pullman Strike, the Scopes Monkey Trial, Wounded Knee, Witch hunts, Dust Bowl Days, the treatment of America's indigenous peoples, Japanese internment during WWII? Anything ring a bell? We have it so cushy today. If we had to endure 1/10 of what past generations have had to put up with I think most of us would have given up long before now. It's just one more day in America.I think we are about to find out, you can only pile the crap! so high before it all comes tumblen down.

[welderguy]

Unfortunately, it is. But, that doesn't mean it has to be the case tomorrow.

Last year a contingency of law enforcement officers opened fire on an unarmed man whose vehicle had stopped and no intention or reason was given for the officers actions. Immediately after the incident they confiscated and destroyed phones rather than render aid to the people that they had shot in the cross fire. We did nothing.

Like Katrina when the cops grabbed guns in unlawful searches and seizures because they felt the area was unsafe because of criminal activity! our greatest action was against law enforcement officers who murdered people intentionally. People they knew were unarmed and posed no threat. But, whose skin was the wrong color.

The guy we have been talking about was under the scope of a sniper. I can't see how a guy who was sitting cross legged on the ground posed that immediate of a threat even if he had a firearm. The sniper could have called the shots.

I am not trying to persecute these two cops. I wasn't there. But, tomorrow doesn't have to be just like today and that guy doesn't have to have died in vain. When a cop dies everybody learns and adapts. But, when a guy with a water nozzle is shot down, or a kid with an airsoft gun gets shot by a cop, they just should have known better?

Kool aid ain't my cup of tea...

The only point i disagree with is the air soft gun, some look very real even in daylight, It should be treated as a real gun. if orders are given to drop it and they are not. well sorry!!!!

[welderguy]

Since police shootings of suspects holding something mistaken for a gun happens, what about totally unarmed suspects? such as the guy that went zombie from bath salts. couldn't they have done something else other than shooting him several times? should those cops face charges because they went straight to lethal force.

[WolfVanZandt]

There are some significant differences between now and then - the major one is the disconnect between individuals and their neighbors. People used to rely on each other because they had to - for survival. Today the dictum is "Look out for number One" and "I don't need anyone else." We don't have to rely on others (we don't think)."

Rick you listed some pretty disturbing things in our past but "people" didn't have to put up with them. Most people were barely affected by them. Only certain groups were all that much affected. Even the depression - a lot of people got through that because they networked and there was still a lot of things that worked. We're headed in the direction of a situation in which nothing works.

I don't believe we've ever experienced what's coming.

[Rick]

My list was not all inclusive either. Only a very small list of major events used to illustrate that we don't have a monopoly on crazy. Every generation before us has had their hands full and often with things much more terrible than anything we've even contemplated. The plague. Potato famine. How's that?

[WolfVanZandt]

Restricted in geographical area.......I don't see this as restricted (except maybe to the Earth). But you are right in that the same problems have always been around, they've just been building exponentially - we're coming into the steep part of the curve.

Part of it is like the checkout person who has gotten so used to cashiering on the computer that they can't do it by hand anymore - then the power goes. We're too dependent on our technology and the majority have accepted that in place of reliance on each other, and even on ourselves.

[shiftyer1]

Yes it has gone crazy......a few years back me and the wife were out on a weekend night. I get a phone call from a neighbor asking if i'm having trouble.
Huh? I'm shooting pool what do u mean?

Turns out a neighbor had a bat in the house and called the police. They ended up catching it in a pillow case and shooting it in the yard with a shotgun.

I'll never understand that......I thought all u needed for bats was a tennis racket????

[canid]

I'll never understand that......I thought all u needed for bats was a tennis racket????

Only if you're well versed in the great outdoors.

[Rick]

You win. You've got the best story.

[BENESSE]

A definitive confirmation that the world had gone bat$hit.

[2dumb2kwit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbgPyws4-Wc

[BENESSE]

(CBS News) JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

[crashdive123]

(CBS News) JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

Yep. Following the advice of the Vice President of the United States can land you in jail. I sure hope the defense council calls him to testify.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq2FoGND6uw

[medic68]

Since when do the police get a free pass on EVERYTHING that they are involved in? They have become militarized, and look nothing like "police". They serve no knock warrents at the wrong house, kill protective dogs and innocent people (some asleep in their beds), shoot without provocation and then say "ooops" with impunity? Elected DA's don't do anything about it, the Blue Line gets wider and wider and the copsuckers in this country puff up their chests and defend actions that the Founding Fathers would have taken up arms against! Google the likes of Erik Scott or Todd Blair. The "accidents" being continually excused because the people involved are the "police" are a symptom of the police state becoming a reality. The actions common place today in every community are the actions protested by the minority communities back in the 1950's, 60's and 70's as police brutality. If you allow them to abuse and take your rights then ............. they will.

[Rick]

I would suggest it's the exception rather than the norm. There are hundreds of thousands of LEOs in this country it's pretty rare to hear about an accidental shooting like this. And when it happens it's big news. There's never an article in the paper that says, "Our LEO's did a great job today arresting two on outstanding warrants and three drunk drivers". You'll never read that.

On the flip side, We have one local LEO currently in jail on charges and two other local LEOs that have recently been suspended for wrong doing.

[medic68]

I would suggest it's the exception rather than the norm. There are hundreds of thousands of LEOs in this country it's pretty rare to hear about an accidental shooting like this. And when it happens it's big news. There's never an article in the paper that says, "Our LEO's did a great job today arresting two on outstanding warrants and three drunk drivers". You'll never read that.

On the flip side, We have one local LEO currently in jail on charges and two other local LEOs that have recently been suspended for wrong doing.

Hardly the exception friend it's now the rule. As for "rare" that is hardly the case. (I was unable to post the links to the information to substantiate this because they were "denied" by the site) As for those being "prosecuted" the Police Union is all powerful and there was an officer sentenced to jail (and served felony time) who just became the Chief of a department twenty miles down the road from where he was busted originally. Some departments don't require you passing your POST for a year and your on the street with zero training. The entire system of enforcement is to provide fodder for the private prison system. We have more people incarcerated in the US than Stalin had in the Gulags at the height of his power. It's another facet you need to be prepared for to "survive". We just witnessed martial law and the complete violation of citizen rights after the Boston bombings and the press treated it like it was OK. Many communities would not have put up with the police searching their homes without warrants. Equipment used in Iraq on city streets with the word "Police" on them is not what this country was founded to become.
9298

[letslearntogether47]

Beware,you can be arrested and charged now for simply having a p. cooker.
Read the last lines in this story.So Ken,what do you think?

http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/boston-north/fbi-investigating-after-pressurecooker-bomb-materials-found-in-topsfield/-/11984708/20995424/-/y8g0v8/-/index.html

[welderguy]

I wont get into the inner workings of Law enforcement, etc etc.
I will say two things, First No matter who you are or what your status is if you break a law you should face prosecution. second, there seems to be a lot of stereo typing LEO's as of late, I bet it would Pi$$ of a lot if not all of the people here If were to to make the same judgmental and biased comments using Black, Or Muslims or Jews in the same context as some do with LEO's. What if I made the statement about the kid Zimmerman shot to this effect Oh well no big lose, just another black kid got what he deserved" Pretty racist and one sided right? But that isn't my feelings at all .

[letslearntogether47]

I fail to see the comparison between LEO's and race,religion or even Zimmerman.
You kinda lost me.

[Rick]

I see nothing wrong with LEO using the best equipment available to protect themselves and the public. If they look military so be it. If my azz was out there on the line every day you can bet I'd want same or better equipment than the bad guys have. My guess is you would too. And I still don't buy it's the norm. You can cite exceptions until the cows come home that doesn't make it so. Maybe that's true where you are but it's not where I am.

By the way, you can now post your links. You have more than 10 posts. The 10 post minimum is to help keep down spam.

LLT - "Simply having a p. cooker" didn't get him arrested. My guess is the domestic assault, battery, making a false bomb threat and the 4 hour standoff probably had a bit more to do with it than the p. cooker.

[welderguy]

I fail to see the comparison between LEO's and race,religion or even Zimmerman.
You kinda lost me.

reference to stereo typing, all leo's are the same, all black kids are no good gang bangers and deserve to die. that type thing. like all Muslims are bad because of the ones that are. Its like the way people talk **** about lawyers until one gets your butt out of a jam.

[welderguy]

I see nothing wrong with LEO using the best equipment available to protect themselves and the public. If they look military so be it. If my azz was out there on the line every day you can bet I'd want same or better equipment than the bad guys have. My guess is you would too. And I still don't buy it's the norm. You can cite exceptions until the cows come home that doesn't make it so. Maybe that's true where you are but it's not where I am.

By the way, you can now post your links. You have more than 10 posts. The 10 post minimum is to help keep down spam.




LLT - "Simply having a p. cooker" didn't get him arrested. My guess is the domestic assault, battery, making a false bomb threat and the 4 hour standoff probably had a bit more to do with it than the p. cooker.

Society has changed over the years a lot, it isn't poodle skirts and Bobbie socks any more Beaver, LE has changed its looks to adapt to today's society. Ya all think Elvis, if he were alive would still be wearing what he did in the 70's. Its like there Vehicles, as civilians get faster and better cars LE has to adapt so they are ahead of the game. It would be hard for them to catch a 500hp dodge charger if they were still driving the old crown vics.

[Rick]

Well golly gee, Wally. I agreed with you.

[welderguy]

Well golly gee, Wally. I agreed with you.

We gee wally, you aint even gonna sock me or anything.

[Rick]

So you're the guy that takes all the socks! I have a drawer full of single socks that the mates disappeared to. Now I know.

[welderguy]

So you're the guy that takes all the socks! I have a drawer full of single socks that the mates disappeared to. Now I know.

I meant to speak to you about that, I prefer tube socks, them ankle socks aint getting it, if you could please start buying tube socks i would appreciate it. Thank You.

[medic68]

I see nothing wrong with LEO using the best equipment available to protect themselves and the public. If they look military so be it. If my azz was out there on the line every day you can bet I'd want same or better equipment than the bad guys have. My guess is you would too. And I still don't buy it's the norm. You can cite exceptions until the cows come home that doesn't make it so. Maybe that's true where you are but it's not where I am.

By the way, you can now post your links. You have more than 10 posts. The 10 post minimum is to help keep down spam.

LLT - "Simply having a p. cooker" didn't get him arrested. My guess is the domestic assault, battery, making a false bomb threat and the 4 hour standoff probably had a bit more to do with it than the p. cooker.Sir,
I completed my POST in 1972, was hired by and worked a major department on the left coast and not behind a desk. I did not retire from the department I left after three years because I saw what it was going to become and wanted no part of the changes. There were three things we were taught from day one at the Academy: always trust your partner, the Dragon always wins and you'll never prevent a suicide. We spent our time working with the community, oh we were our own community in a sense (we drank together and actually had a social life together), but our duty wasn't to each other "regardless", it was to the people we were being a sheep dog for. Todays officers, and I have several in my family, are the most organized group of thugs I've ever seen. My family members included. There is no longer "justice" in the country (at the street level) there is only "law" now. I may be older than most posters here (and more jaded) but when did it become a necessity for the police to serve every warrant as a no knock? The militarization of the police is reminiscent of what happened in Germany in 1934. Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. Your comments on equipment are just hardly accurate. When were armored carriers needed to look for a bombing suspect in a Boston neighborhood? The operation was a rehearsal for upcoming events. I wish this wasn't the case as I have two children under three. Their world, and this country, will either be run by people who uphold the Constitution or those that will trample it into the ground under the guise of protection. The Patriot Act, as implemented, is a clear violation of our Rights but it was enacted without so much as a whimper from the "People". Why? Because we've become complacent about the Liberty we were give by the Founding Fathers. Does any grown man in this forum believe for one second they (the Founders) would put up with this BS? I think not. When the police want to be part of the community instead of lording over it than America will be better off and you Sir, and I, will stand less of a chance of being killed by the police serving a no knock warrant at the wrong house. As for the excuse offered up that it's a "tough job" (justifying police behavior)............. if it's that "tough" then find another job. What "officer safety" was involved when Lon Horiuchi killed Randy Weaver wife? When Metro Las Vegas killed Erik Scott?

[welderguy]

Sir,
I completed my POST in 1972, was hired by and worked a major department on the left coast and not behind a desk. I did not retire from the department I left after three years because I saw what it was going to become and wanted no part of the changes. There were three things we were taught from day one at the Academy: always trust your partner, the Dragon always wins and you'll never prevent a suicide. We spent our time working with the community, oh we were our own community in a sense (we drank together and actually had a social life together), but our duty wasn't to each other "regardless", it was to the people we were being a sheep dog for. Todays officers, and I have several in my family, are the most organized group of thugs I've ever seen. My family members included. The is no longer "justice" in the country (at the street level) there is only "law" now. I may be older than most posters here (and more jaded) but when did it become a necessity for the police to serve every warrant as a no knock? The militarization of the police is reminiscent of what happened in Germany in 1934. Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it. Your comments on equipment are just hardly accurate. When were armored carriers needed to look for a bombing suspect in a Boston neighborhood? The operation was a rehearsal for upcoming events. I wish this wasn't the case as I have two children under three. Their world, and this country, will either be run by people who uphold the Constitution or those that will trample it into the ground under the guise of protection. The Patriot Act, as implemented, is a clear violation of our Rights but it was enacted without so much as a whimper from the "People". Why? Because we've become complacent about the Liberty we were give by the Founding Fathers. Does any grown man in this forum believe for one second they (the Founders) would put up with this BS? I think not. When the police want to be part of the community instead of lording over it than America will be better off and you Sir, and I, will stand less of a chance of being killed by the police serving a no knock warrant at the wrong house. As for the excuse offered up that it's a "tough job" (justifying police behavior)............. if it's that "tough" then find another job. What "officer safety" was involved when Lon Horiuchi killed Randy Weaver wife? When Metro Las Vegas killed Erik Scott?

I've been Involved in LE since 1991 in one form or capacity and Have seen many problems , But nothing to the extreme you claim to have faced and seen. I will not get into a Debate on the subject, i just saying maybe you should be on the phone with the FBI, or news agencies and expose the heavy handed thug cops in your town. Including your family , if they are that bad as well.
May I ask why your against no knock warrants, why announce and have the evidence your looking for flushed, or that kidnapping victim shot.

[WolfVanZandt]

Personally, I still like community service personnel - even garbage collectors (the local animal control - well, that's another issue). I do wish that the outfits I see were more competent, but I can't blame people for being parts of trends.

[medic68]

Sir,

If your in local law enforcement, would you trust the Feds with anything? Hell, their boss is Eric Holder............. need I say more. As for no knocks, if they were only being used for substantial drug busts and kidnappings, I'd have no problem with the argument however they are used for everything from traffic warrants to "suspected drug activity"................ which is really not "Probable cause". If the warrant is served at the correct location I have no problem with no knocks as long as the informant's information is accurate (not always the case), there was no BS in asking for it ( :shifty: ) and as noted in the 2002 DEA Memo it doesn't "violate the Fourth Amendment if the officers' have actual knowledge that the circumstances that justified the no-knock authorization no longer exist at the time the warrant is executed. ". Who cares if an ounce of pot get's flushed? The use of two extremes (drugs and kidnappings) as an example to justify their use I find interesting when you know that kidnappings requiring no knock entries are fairly rare in enforcement (see the FBI's current crime statistics). Don't even get me started on the abuse of "asset forfeiture"................

[welderguy]

Sir,

If your in local law enforcement, would you trust the Feds with anything? Hell, their boss is Eric Holder............. need I say more. As for no knocks, if they were only being used for substantial drug busts and kidnappings, I'd have no problem with the argument however they are used for everything from traffic warrants to "suspected drug activity"................ which is really not "Probable cause". If the warrant is served at the correct location I have no problem with no knocks as long as the informant's information is accurate (not always the case), there was no BS in asking for it ( :shifty: ) and as noted in the 2002 DEA Memo it doesn't "violate the Fourth Amendment if the officers' have actual knowledge that the circumstances that justified the no-knock authorization no longer exist at the time the warrant is executed. ". Who cares if an ounce of pot get's flushed? The use of two extremes (drugs and kidnappings) as an example to justify their use I find interesting when you know that kidnappings requiring no knock entries are fairly rare in enforcement (see the FBI's current crime statistics). Don't even get me started on the abuse of "asset forfeiture"................

I have never seen or been involved in a no knock warrant being issued for anything less that a Third degree felony , I have seen a couple no knock warrant issued for state jail felonies that involved weapons.
I used drugs and kidnapping because they were the first things that popped into my head , the list is very long. I feel for you with the corruption in your AO with LEO's wish there was a solution I could offer, I have seen some dirty LEO'S but they were always dealt with, it never became more than an isolated incident.
When a CI gives a location and names there is a lot of verification put into that info, I've never seen a warrant issued just on a CI's word. I did a lot of UC on many different cases and have never been involved in a wrong address entry. have had a few mistaken Idents in a sting but that does happen. forfiture

[welderguy]

I have never seen or been involved in a no knock warrant being issued for anything less that a Third degree felony , I have seen a couple no knock warrant issued for state jail felonies that involved weapons.
I used drugs and kidnapping because they were the first things that popped into my head , the list is very long. I feel for you with the corruption in your AO with LEO's wish there was a solution I could offer, I have seen some dirty LEO'S but they were always dealt with, it never became more than an isolated incident.
When a CI gives a location and names there is a lot of verification put into that info, I've never seen a warrant issued just on a CI's word. I did a lot of UC on many different cases and have never been involved in a wrong address entry. have had a few mistaken Idents in a sting but that does happen. forfeiture

PSSSST! No need to call me Sir, welder or David is much less formal.

[Rick]

I think you brush with a broad brush but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Our LEO are decent guys just trying to do their job and make a living.

[BENESSE]

It's hard to resist the habit of holding people in power and with a lot of responsibility to a higher standard, as ideally, we should. But these folks are like anyone else and have within their ranks good and bad elements. No great insight there, we just tend to forget it because it's troubling to face the fact that someone who can really affect you life (say, a Dr., LE, IRS agent, etc) can be a scumbag.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

Fury (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/11692)168 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/784)нат� (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/134)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com)Евро (http://factoringfee.ru/t/946837)Попо (http://filmzones.ru/t/396716)разм (http://gadwall.ru/t/570846)Swam (http://gaffertape.ru/t/832010)Luck (http://gageboard.ru/t/843529)Воло (http://gagrule.ru/t/482026)Кнеб (http://gallduct.ru/t/838799)Narv (http://galvanometric.ru/t/448034)6438 (http://gangforeman.ru/t/358534)Ма�л (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/851709)JSil (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1083036)
Игна (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/297868)Лоба (http://gascautery.ru/t/941677)Tesc (http://gashbucket.ru/t/448485)одно (http://gasreturn.ru/t/856675)упак (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/559881)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1159937)Март (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/950257)чита (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/679967)Robe (http://geartreating.ru/t/685792)Samb (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/576370)Morm (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559641)Choc (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/565549)Brut (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/142931)Poul (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/296587)Palm (http://getthebounce.ru/t/142943)
Каза (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/759564)Prog (http://habituate.ru/t/823324)Adid (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/396295)Alfr (http://hackworker.ru/t/795756)ра�� (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/759833)Пого (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/761535)Mati (http://hailsquall.ru/t/306498)Кита (http://hairysphere.ru/t/560467)Kiwi (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561764)Nive (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562797)�ерт (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/563106)Nive (http://haltstate.ru/t/560510)твор (http://handcoding.ru/t/760338)Коле (http://handportedhead.ru/t/913320)MGro (http://handradar.ru/t/562368)
Воло (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/285487)Jerz (http://hangonpart.ru/t/646927)Выхо (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557477)Bras (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/556889)на�м (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566510)�ерт (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/567064)Arkt (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567686)ABBY (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/161691)Илар (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/601879)Beve (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/742661)Alte (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/298038)Блин (http://headregulator.ru/t/655108)англ (http://heartofgold.ru/t/830442)Copp (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/468046)СГКу (http://heatinggas.ru/t/853285)
Otfr (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/792313)Wast (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/603039)Nach (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/602075)This (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/607671)Niki (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603751)Niki (http://jobstress.ru/t/603750)Ð*азм (http://jogformation.ru/t/609225)вкле (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/677079)Char (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/906715)Mamo (http://journallubricator.ru/t/562190)прив (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/735363)Прок (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/679296)Step (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/751964)Иллю (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/669201)Spel (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/769752)
унив (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/736519)Zone (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610479)XVII (http://kentishglory.ru/t/782904)Ð*иль (http://kerbweight.ru/t/761079)кара (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606593)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/609047)Валь (http://keyserum.ru/t/782312)Micr (http://kickplate.ru/t/163563)Juli (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/659083)MORG (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606578)diam (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609513)земл (http://kinozones.ru/film/680)5,98 (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611249)Zone (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605444)факу (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/833738)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/607881)Zone (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605258)Голу (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/671162)Fant (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1131237)Stev (http://laborracket.ru/t/358589)пере (http://labourearnings.ru/t/833333)Кузн (http://labourleasing.ru/t/833288)Добр (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/864176)Iren (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/854016)Malp (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/861483)Haro (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/857718)Barb (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/771370)Седл (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/469215)�лов (http://laggingload.ru/t/762980)допо (http://laissezaller.ru/t/809487)
Груд (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/695032)Дубч (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/665210)Isaa (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/751363)XVII (http://lamphouse.ru/t/811716)�пра (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/750351)�нто (http://lancingdie.ru/t/639095)�рте (http://landingdoor.ru/t/673612)Тере (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/832745)Dais (http://landreform.ru/t/832714)Цубо (http://landuseratio.ru/t/774902)Соде (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/845319)крыш (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161965)Wind (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1480084)пита (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/940)�ере (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591112)

[yellowcab]

Илью (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178943)Kron (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452848)Earl (http://layabout.ru/shop/599790)INTE (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600599)Magn (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/106493)преп (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/466205)WITC (http://leaveword.ru/shop/766594)Курк (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/302881)Davi (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/577170)Leif (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/446873)Lego (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/269294)Mist (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/642873)мрам (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/577403)Myst (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612557)�рми (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1174756)
Суда (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/601225)Firs (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1618)Cont (http://mp3lists.ru/item/416)тек� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151133)Dots (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/564046)Crea (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461989)жен� (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1056025)укра (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576507)Гонк (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103191)Adob (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455647)ANGL (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/178907)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/622430)Wind (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/642487)�зык (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/460561)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97082)
днем (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/306466)Bvlg (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/569966)Roya (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/1149867)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/149439)МоÑ�к (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/203370)XVII (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/150659)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/580936)Лерн (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/583318)иноÑ� (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/685173)MEDI (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/684570)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/689362)Cold (http://papercoating.ru/shop/584556)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/690002)Шнит (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1171421)пров (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1171433)
(193 (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1174405)John (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1173510)Евге (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1543374)Южно (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1539701)Tupe (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/596548)�екр (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/780821)по�в (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1073480)Бар� (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1077410)Марш (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/346165)Whit (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/510854)Ливе (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/635079)враг (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/902817)Федо (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/976102)Chip (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1213699)(Вед (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/395125)
Afte (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/515324)акад (http://rearchain.ru/shop/858237)бизн (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/726774)Ко�т (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1033259)Пучк (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1055553)Ловк (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1063724)улуч (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1686546)Ткач (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1694243)Миха (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1766681)Deat (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1775374)Игна (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1820961)Горд (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1058780)пере (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1851899)Цане (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1876952)Лари (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1898506)
Цвын (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1494229)Ут�ш (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1497779)Ва�и (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1497758)�аум (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1588563)Емел (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1433005)Крив (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1493105)И�по (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/351108)О�тр (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/402191)Чуди (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/403644)�тар (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1690258)пита (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/940)пита (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/940)пита (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/940)Дреш (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/484514)Воли (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/494546)
(фле (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/499984)Маза (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/503224)20-3 (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/489222)малы (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/500626)авто (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1823543)Лиха (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1885356)Inte (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1915740)��нк (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/790498)Букв (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/403586)авто (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/982341)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)и�пр (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/982704)Боро (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/484824)

[yellowcab]

�айт (http://geartreating.ru)�айт (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)�айт (http://getintoaflap.ru)�айт (http://gashbucket.ru)�айт (http://scarcecommodity.ru)�айт (http://kerrrotation.ru)�айт (http://hailsquall.ru)�айт (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)�айт (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)�айт (http://mammasdarling.ru)�айт (http://heatageingresistance.ru)�айт (http://laborracket.ru)�айт (http://kaposidisease.ru)�айт (http://landuseratio.ru)�айт (http://offlinesystem.ru)
�айт (http://lacingcourse.ru)�айт (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)�айт (http://packedspheres.ru)�айт (http://neatplaster.ru)�айт (http://gaussianfilter.ru)�айт (http://secularclergy.ru)�айт (http://hardasiron.ru)�айт (http://kleinbottle.ru)�айт (http://cottagenet.ru)�айт (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)�айт (http://selectivediffuser.ru)�айт (http://papercoating.ru)�айт (http://objectmodule.ru)�айт (http://jobstress.ru)�айт (http://getthebounce.ru)
�айт (http://gardeningleave.ru)�айт (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)�айт (http://temperedmeasure.ru)�айт (http://readingmagnifier.ru)�айт (http://quasimoney.ru)�айт (http://reachthroughregion.ru)�айт (http://haphazardwinding.ru)�айт (http://hangonpart.ru)�айт (http://eyesvision.ru)�айт (http://naturalfunctor.ru)�айт (http://landmarksensor.ru)�айт (http://knifesethouse.ru)�айт (http://heartofgold.ru)�айт (http://satellitehydrology.ru)�айт (http://gasreturn.ru)
�айт (http://radialchaser.ru)�айт (http://quadrupleworm.ru)�айт (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)�айт (http://haltstate.ru)�айт (http://rabbetledge.ru)�айт (http://latrinesergeant.ru)�айт (http://juicecatcher.ru)�айт (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)�айт (http://jogformation.ru)�айт (http://magneticequator.ru)�айт (http://haemagglutinin.ru)�айт (http://sagprofile.ru)�айт (http://hatchholddown.ru)�айт (http://samplinginterval.ru)�айт (http://galvanometric.ru)
�айт (http://seawaterpump.ru)�айт (http://laserpulse.ru)�айт (http://spysale.ru)�айт (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)�айт (http://labourleasing.ru)�айт (http://safedrilling.ru)�айт (http://screwingunit.ru)�айт (http://gaffertape.ru)�айт (http://oceanmining.ru)�айт (http://nationalcensus.ru)�айт (http://keyserum.ru)�айт (http://laterevent.ru)�айт (http://journallubricator.ru)�айт (http://gageboard.ru)�айт (http://haveafinetime.ru)
�айт (http://tapecorrection.ru)�айт (http://railwaybridge.ru)�айт (http://secondaryblock.ru)�айт (http://layabout.ru)�айт (http://landreform.ru)�айт (http://taskreasoning.ru)�айт (http://nameresolution.ru)�айт (http://radiationestimator.ru)�айт (http://knowledgestate.ru)�айт (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)�айт (http://halforderfringe.ru)�айт (http://tappingchuck.ru)�айт (http://gangforeman.ru)�айт (http://manualchoke.ru)�айт (http://knockonatom.ru)
�айт (http://gagrule.ru)�айт (http://ladletreatediron.ru)�айт (http://gatedsweep.ru)�айт (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)�айт (http://languagelaboratory.ru)�айт (http://keymanassurance.ru)�айт (http://qualitybooster.ru)�айт (http://necroticcaries.ru)�айт (http://rearchain.ru)�айт (http://largeheart.ru)�айт (http://handcoding.ru)�айт (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)�айт (http://gaugemodel.ru)�айт (http://rapidgrowth.ru)�айт (http://lammasshoot.ru)
�айт (http://kentishglory.ru)�айт (http://gallduct.ru)�айт (http://medinfobooks.ru)�айт (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)�айт (http://majorconcern.ru)�айт (http://handradar.ru)�айт (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)�айт (http://jibtypecrane.ru)�айт (http://laggingload.ru)�айт (http://offsetholder.ru)�айт (http://kneejoint.ru)�айт (http://scrapermat.ru)�айт (http://habituate.ru)�айт (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)�айт (http://octupolephonon.ru)

[yellowcab]

�айт (http://negativefibration.ru)�айт (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)�айт (http://obstructivepatent.ru)�айт (http://factoringfee.ru)�айт (http://learningcurve.ru)�айт (http://salestypelease.ru)�айт (http://observationballoon.ru)�айт (http://laissezaller.ru)�айт (http://referenceantigen.ru)�айт (http://telescopicdamper.ru)�айт (http://labeledgraph.ru)�айт (http://geriatricnurse.ru)�айт (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)�айт (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)�айт (http://leadingfirm.ru)
�айт (http://filmzones.ru)�айт (http://naphtheneseries.ru)�айт (http://gangwayplatform.ru)�айт (http://temperateclimate.ru)�айт (http://gascautery.ru)�айт (http://randomcoloration.ru)�айт (http://leadcoating.ru)�айт (http://managerialstaff.ru)�айт (http://lambdatransition.ru)�айт (http://halfsiblings.ru)�айт (http://navelseed.ru)�айт (http://narrowmouthed.ru)�айт (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)�айт (http://machinesensible.ru)�айт (http://neighbouringrights.ru)
�айт (http://tenementbuilding.ru)�айт (http://quodrecuperet.ru)�айт (http://recordedassignment.ru)�айт (http://leaveword.ru)�айт (http://partialmajorant.ru)�айт (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)�айт (http://recessioncone.ru)�айт (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)�айт (http://laburnumtree.ru)�айт (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)�айт (http://redemptionvalue.ru)�айт (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)�айт (http://habeascorpus.ru)�айт (http://heatinggas.ru)�айт (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)
�айт (http://generalprovisions.ru)�айт (http://parkingbrake.ru)�айт (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)�айт (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)�айт (http://gadwall.ru)�айт (http://labourearnings.ru)�айт (http://handportedhead.ru)�айт (http://hackedbolt.ru)�айт (http://lamphouse.ru)�айт (http://stungun.ru)�айт (http://quenchedspark.ru)�айт (http://japanesecedar.ru)�айт (http://hairysphere.ru)�айт (http://laserlens.ru)�айт (http://kilowattsecond.ru)
�айт (http://technicalgrade.ru)�айт (http://mp3lists.ru)�айт (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)�айт (http://jacketedwall.ru)�айт (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)�айт (http://junctionofchannels.ru)�айт (http://seismicefficiency.ru)�айт (http://kickplate.ru)�айт (http://kinozones.ru)�айт (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)�айт (http://palatinebones.ru)�айт (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)�айт (http://lasercalibration.ru)�айт (http://lancecorporal.ru)�айт (http://jobabandonment.ru)
�айт (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)�айт (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)�айт (http://tailstockcenter.ru)�айт (http://garbagechute.ru)�айт (http://onesticket.ru)�айт (http://manipulatinghand.ru)�айт (http://mailinghouse.ru)�айт (http://hackworker.ru)�айт (http://jointcapsule.ru)�айт (http://palmberry.ru)�айт (http://spicetrade.ru)�айт (http://kingweakfish.ru)�айт (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)�айт (http://ultramaficrock.ru)�айт (http://semifinishmachining.ru)
�айт (http://headregulator.ru)�айт (http://landingdoor.ru)�айт (http://pagingterminal.ru)�айт (http://hallofresidence.ru)�айт (http://partfamily.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)�айт (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)�айт (http://lancingdie.ru)�айт (http://reducingflange.ru)�айт (http://tamecurve.ru)�айт (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)�айт (http://kerbweight.ru)�айт (http://eyesvisions.com)