View Full Version : Looking for Advice - Potential Workplace Violence
About a week ago, I mentioned that my 26-year-old daughter was robbed at gunpoint at work a couple of years back. That was her last day at the job. She's a grown woman, but I'll always be a protective dad.
She started a new job last November, working the third shift at a medium-sized high-tech manufacturing plant with about 200 employees. Employees at the plant, located in an industrial park, are extremely well paid and receive excellent benefits compared to most wage-earners in the area. Turnover is very low, and most employees have been worked there for several years.
My daughter is a hard worker and a fast learner, and I was a very proud dad when she was promoted to plant shift-manager about 6 weeks ago. She works 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, 7:00 pm to 7:00 am, managing 1 and 1/2 shifts each day.
She had her first serious problem with an employee last night. The young man, a resident-alien from Asia, had recently asked the CEO for a company loan to buy a car. The company extends loans to reliable long-time employees, but this individual had been there for only 8 months and the loan request was denied.
So last night, he began a complaining that he was being discriminated against. He rambled on that the plant CEO, a Vietnam Vet, had "killed his people." He returned from his lunch break and was clearly intoxicated. He refused to work and became disruptive, ranting loudly that the company "owed him" because the CEO had "killed his people." My daughter had no alternative but to terminate him and order him to leave the premises immediately.
Obviously, my concern is the potential for workplace violence, especially on Friday's when the plant shuts down at 11:00 pm for the weekend and my daughter is alone there until after midnight, well after the employees have all left. My daughter plans on addressing this issue with the CEO and the VPs on Monday, but I'm nonetheless very concerned about her safety. I know from experience that "no-trespass notices" and restraining orders aren't worth the paper they're written on.
Employees are strictly prohibited from carrying firearms on company property. That's not an option for her. The plant has several entrances, and employees on the overnight shift are permitted to leave and re-enter the plant through one entrance during their staggered breaks.
You can be sure that I'll be there waiting for her to leave on Friday nights (actually Saturday mornings) and that I'll follow her home to the suburbs to make sure she arrives home safe and sound. I'll do that for the indefinite future. Maybe he'll show up on the first night I'm waiting near the door........
Obviously, I can't be there 12 hours a day, 5 days a week. And that is why I'm asking for advice from a group of "like-minded" people.
Winter
07-04-2013, 04:15 PM
Combative training and a serious knife.
gryffynklm
07-04-2013, 04:30 PM
Can she authorize overtime to a trusted employee to at least have a second on premisses.
Can she authorize overtime to a trusted employee to at least have a second on premisses.
She can, Karl. But that person won't be armed either. Good idea though. Thanks!
hunter63
07-04-2013, 04:40 PM
Does the plant have a security system or people?.....
Has similar situation in our plant.....the plant guard(s) did provide escort to and from vehicles...
Does the plant have a security system or people?.....
Has similar situation in our plant.....the plant guard(s) did provide escort to and from vehicles...
Only an alarm system, hunter. No security personnel at all. The industrial park is well over a square mile in size with about 5 miles of roads. It's a dark, isolated place surrounded mostly by woods. The plant's at least 500 feet away from the next closest building, and I'd be surprised if a police cruiser drives by more than twice a month.
gryffynklm
07-04-2013, 04:53 PM
Wish I had something of more substance to offer. It sounds like a review of facility security and procedures is in order.
welderguy
07-04-2013, 04:57 PM
What would hinder you or some associates from being in the parking lot from 11pm till your daughter is off ?
hunter63
07-04-2013, 04:57 PM
It would be in the best interest of the company to deal with any safety issues that an employee may have on their property...at least that's the way our company viewed it at the time.
She acted in the companies interest in doing her job...there fore they have a stake in this as well..........
welderguy
07-04-2013, 05:03 PM
It would be in the best interest of the company to deal with any safety issues that an employee may have on their property...at least that's the way our company viewed it at the time.
She acted in the companies interest in doing her job...there fore they have a stake in this as well..........
You would think so,but if safety and security of employes was a concern for them they would hire a security company. Looking out for the best interest of the company usually ends when its your personal safety on the line. I cant recall any company that has been victim of work place violence say " Sorry this was all are fault, please sue us".
Wish I had something of more substance to offer. It sounds like a review of facility security and procedures is in order.
The meeting's on Monday, Karl. Keeping my fingers crossed that they do something of substance.
What would hinder you or some associates from being in the parking lot from 11pm till your daughter is off ?
I'm certain that can be arranged. The guy didn't make any threats, but he was clearly agitated and we live in a crazy world. If he HAD made a threat, the problem would have been resolved already.
It would be in the best interest of the company to deal with any safety issues that an employee may have on their property...at least that's the way our company viewed it at the time.
She acted in the companies interest in doing her job...there fore they have a stake in this as well..........
This isn't the first termination there by any means, but it was HER first time terminating someone. They've never brought in security or police to her knowledge. Nonetheless, the combined facts that this guy has a deep-seated grudge, is claiming discrimination, feels he's "owed something," and abuses alcohol raise serious concerns that probably aren't an issue in most terminations.
There are several different companies that will will escort you to your vehicle and be on the phone with you and track you with GPS until your are safely in your vehicle. One calls their program "Walk with Me". If you feel threatened they will call the police for you. The point with them is someone is online real time. Not a deterrent of course but would provide her some level of comfort and immediate response if something did happen. She might not be able to call 911 on her own. Check out StreetSafe at http://www.streetsafe.com or 5Star Urgent Response at http://www.greatcall.com/FiveStar_urgent_response/
Are chemical deterrents (mace, etc.) legal in Mass?
Are there work place safety rules for management in place? If so, she should certainly review what her options are.
Is there a video surveillance system in place? If not, that would certainly be a suggestion to the CEO.
Were threats made against her and/or the company? Restraining orders should still be put in place if there were.
Does she have any vantage point to see the parking lot from inside the building before leaving. Is the lot lit?
Is the single entrance door they are allowed to use somehow locked with a entry code or swipe card system? If not, that would also be a suggestion.
Perhaps the company could hire a temporary nighttime guard for 30 days. By then the guy will probably have found another job.
Just some thoughts.
Cast-Iron
07-04-2013, 05:41 PM
I would suggest looking at hiring personal security detail. If you're only talking about an hour or two window, one night a week, there may be a service already in the area that could provide her with personalized service at a reasonable cost. If she's writing the check, she would have greater control over the service. At least until the company provides a better alternative or the threat has passed. What's a few bucks for peace of mind? It is also likely to be deductible as an unreimbursed business expense but check with a tax expert on that. If you've got friends in law enforcement maybe they can recommend a trusted officer who moonlights as a security guard. Say it costs $100 bucks per night. For six months of protection it's only $2600.
There are several different companies that will will escort you to your vehicle and be on the phone with you and track you with GPS until your are safely in your vehicle. One calls their program "Walk with Me". If you feel threatened they will call the police for you. The point with them is someone is online real time. Not a deterrent of course but would provide her some level of comfort and immediate response if something did happen. She might not be able to call 911 on her own. Check out StreetSafe at http://www.streetsafe.com or 5Star Urgent Response at http://www.greatcall.com/FiveStar_urgent_response/
Just some thoughts.
Good questions, Rick.
Are chemical deterrents (mace, etc.) legal in Mass?
Yes, but guns are quite common on the streets around here. Mace won't work in a gun fight or against a knife.
Are there work place safety rules for management in place? If so, she should certainly review what her options are.
None other than keeping doors locked and the usual non-security safety policies.
Is there a video surveillance system in place? If not, that would certainly be a suggestion to the CEO.
Yes, and she can monitor from her office. However, the plant is quite large, the grounds are isolated, and there are lots of shadows to hide in, especially when she's doing her last walk through and walks out the door into the parking lot.
Were threats made against her and/or the company? Restraining orders should still be put in place if there were.
No threats at all. Not even a hint. But his statements and behavior are cause for concern. From my experience, if someone is inclined to do something, a restraining order only strengthens their resolve. In other cases, it only puts ideas into their heads.
Does she have any vantage point to see the parking lot from inside the building before leaving. Is the lot lit?
There are no monitors at the exit where she leaves from. She has to go outdoors to see what's there. The lot is well lit, but the plantings, plant configuration, and landscaping provide a number of hiding spots.
Is the single entrance door they are allowed to use somehow locked with a entry code or swipe card system? If not, that would also be a suggestion.
It can be locked from the outside with a crash-bar to exit from the inside. No swipe system except for management. Employees enter and exit through the "night entrance" throughout the shift.
Perhaps the company could hire a temporary nighttime guard for 30 days. By then the guy will probably have found another job.
Security is what I'm hoping for. With the local job market as it is, the guy will be unemployed for the next few years. I suspect that the company had EEOC quotas to comply with.
Thanks very much for the suggestions.
I would suggest looking at hiring personal security detail. If you're only talking about an hour or two window, one night a week, there may be a service already in the area that could provide her with personalized service at a reasonable cost. If she's writing the check, she would have greater control over the service. At least until the company provides a better alternative or the threat has passed. What's a few bucks for peace of mind? It is also likely to be deductible as an unreimbursed business expense but check with a tax expert on that. If you've got friends in law enforcement maybe they can recommend a trusted officer who moonlights as a security guard. Say it costs $100 bucks per night. For six months of protection it's only $2600.
I don't want to sound like Marlin Brando, but I do have people, LOL. The problem is that they enjoy what they do and don't quite understand the concept of "measured response."
I'm not only concerned about that one night a week, although it is my greatest concern. This guy could show up at any time - day or night.
crashdive123
07-04-2013, 06:10 PM
Not walking to her car alone, pepper spray, personal alarm (the loudest you can find) - I realize that they may not deter a gun wielding, disgruntled former employee but they may deter an unarmed or lesser armed individual.
Since the meeting is Monday - hopefully they will put on security. With some of your LEO contacts is a one time Friday night escort an option until other security arrangements can be made by the company? Absent the LEO escort, some of your "less disciplined" contacts might be in order.
welderguy
07-04-2013, 06:19 PM
There are several different companies that will will escort you to your vehicle and be on the phone with you and track you with GPS until your are safely in your vehicle. One calls their program "Walk with Me". If you feel threatened they will call the police for you. The point with them is someone is online real time. Not a deterrent of course but would provide her some level of comfort and immediate response if something did happen. She might not be able to call 911 on her own. Check out StreetSafe at http://www.streetsafe.com or 5Star Urgent Response at http://www.greatcall.com/FiveStar_urgent_response/
Are chemical deterrents (mace, etc.) legal in Mass?
Are there work place safety rules for management in place? If so, she should certainly review what her options are.
Is there a video surveillance system in place? If not, that would certainly be a suggestion to the CEO.
Were threats made against her and/or the company? Restraining orders should still be put in place if there were.
Does she have any vantage point to see the parking lot from inside the building before leaving. Is the lot lit?
Is the single entrance door they are allowed to use somehow locked with a entry code or swipe card system? If not, that would also be a suggestion.
Perhaps the company could hire a temporary nighttime guard for 30 days. By then the guy will probably have found another job.
Just some thoughts.
Rick , Ive never seen a chemical agent that was bullet proof..The only thing being on the phone will do is let the person your talking too know you have been shot or are being raped...Immediate response to a threat is pulling your firearm..I guess youve never heard any 911 calls that the people calling in are being heard getting killed while on the phone with dispatch?
crashdive123
07-04-2013, 06:21 PM
Rick , Ive never seen a chemical agent that was bullet proof..The only thing being on the phone will do is let the person your talking too know you have been shot or are being raped...Immediate response to a threat is pulling your firearm..I guess youve never heard any 911 calls that the people calling in are being heard getting killed while on the phone with dispatch?
While true - as was stated - a firearm is not an option for her.
I'm hoping for security as well. Crash, this place is almost 2 driving miles from the entrance to the industrial park - diagonally opposite, in fact. I have LEO friends that would be there for me, unless they get dispatched elsewhere. Either way, I will be there when she's alone, and I always travel with "friends."
My "other contacts" would show up at his home in a heartbeat if I called them, but I'm afraid of what they'd leave behind once they left. Like I said, no threats - so far, anyway.
welderguy
07-04-2013, 06:33 PM
While true - as was stated - a firearm is not an option for her.
True, but having someone as an escort with a firearm could be.
I knew she would not be able to carry a weapon inside the plant and figured with Massachusetts laws she probably could not carry a knife inside either. However, she probably can get away with some chemical agent and even if she had to use it she would probably be okay from a legal standpoint. I probably should have explained that better but I knew what I was thinking dang it. The rest of my questions were related to outside the plant.
nell67
07-04-2013, 07:35 PM
manufacturing plants usually have utility knives (slide in blades),if this one does,then she probably would not get in trouble for having one on her person,and mostly hidden in the palm of her hand where an idiot wouldn't particularly be looking knowing that weapons are banned from the plant as a former employee he would know.
One other thing.... she's tiny. Like 5'2" and under 110 lbs. soaking wet.
Nell, she does carry a knife - and it is for job related reasons. I just called and asked her. It's a Spyderco.
nell67
07-04-2013, 08:01 PM
Nell, she does carry a knife - and it is for job related reasons. I just called and asked her. It's a Spyderco. Needs to be IN her hand anytime she is leaving the building,or even walking the floor checking doors and such. Not ideal,since it requires close encounter to be of defense,but better than not being able to carry anything at all and can sure put a world of hurt on someone.
Needs to be IN her hand anytime she is leaving the building,or even walking the floor checking doors and such. Not ideal,since it requires close encounter to be of defense,but better than not being able to carry anything at all and can sure put a world of hurt on someone.
Inside, yes. DADDY will be there with his friends Heckler & Koch when she's leaving the building on Fridays.
crashdive123
07-04-2013, 08:15 PM
Ken, Don't discount personal alarms. Cowards that would sneak up on a young woman don't like any attention drawn to them. http://www.deluxecctv.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1035&gclid=CN2D64CJl7gCFVIV7AodZ20AhA
2dumb2kwit
07-04-2013, 08:16 PM
Just a thought.
http://www.galls.com/cgi/CGBCSRCH?PMATID=BRAND&PMAVDS=ASP&PMSEON=expandable-batons&PMSRCE=20330030&redirect=false&gclid=CL6Di5yJl7gCFYVQ7AodJEUA2A
Sarge47
07-04-2013, 08:23 PM
Just some random thoughts; do you have any friends who are former military/LEOs that could go to the company and volunteer their skills as security guards? Are Tasers allowed by law in Massachusetts? K-9? Hi-beam flashlight and "rape whistle" for sure. Portable air horn? Walkie talkies, hers locked on the "transmit position?" Yours on "receive?" A bullhorn in your car along with a really large, high-beam flashlight to scare the crap out of the pos should he return? Having a homicide victim in the family helps me relate. ...:rambo:
intothenew
07-04-2013, 08:24 PM
First, she and you need to support the local Sheriff. If it was my Toot Toot, I am confident the local Sheriff would reschedule "lunch break" for a few Deputies if I/she only asks.
Second, she needs some coaching on termination procedures. Again, support your local Sheriff, my Toot Toot would have had a Deputy escort a belligerent, intoxicated former employee to the poky.
Third, support your local Sheriff. Lunch breaks will be a bit less frequent, but we get/got the point across.
Support your local Sheriff. I pay for the service, but do not act that way. They have been more than responsive to any request I have made, and the results are amazing.
Show some force, be it by tax money, out of pocket, or both.
Ken, Don't discount personal alarms. Cowards that would sneak up on a young woman don't like any attention drawn to them. http://www.deluxecctv.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1035&gclid=CN2D64CJl7gCFVIV7AodZ20AhA
I'll order one for her.
Just a thought.
http://www.galls.com/cgi/CGBCSRCH?PMATID=BRAND&PMAVDS=ASP&PMSEON=expandable-batons&PMSRCE=20330030&redirect=false&gclid=CL6Di5yJl7gCFYVQ7AodJEUA2A
Chris, you guessed it. Illegal in Mass. I laughed at when I saw it, because my little bro was pulled out of line by TSA airport security when they found one in his briefcase. The guy he was with had was carrying something a bit more formidable, LOL. Thing is, they both FORGOT they even had them. They smiled when the TSA guy hauled them into an office and started to have a blowout. Supervisors' showed up and flipped out until their supervisors showed up. Out came the I.D.s, and the profuse apologies flowed instantly.
Just some random thoughts; do you have any friends who are former military/LEOs that could go to the company and volunteer their skills as security guards? Are Tasers allowed by law in Massachusetts? K-9? Hi-beam flashlight and "rape whistle" for sure. Portable air horn? Walkie talkies, hers locked on the "transmit position?" Yours on "receive?" A bullhorn in your car along with a really large, high-beam flashlight to scare the crap out of the pos should he return? Having a homicide victim in the family helps me relate. ...:rambo:
Tasers are illegal in Mass. But THESE aren't: http://www.tigerlight.net/TigerLight_Personal_Protection_Device.html
First, she and you need to support the local Sheriff. If it was my Toot Toot, I am confident the local Sheriff would reschedule "lunch break" for a few Deputies if I/she only asks.
Second, she needs some coaching on termination procedures. Again, support your local Sheriff, my Toot Toot would have had a Deputy escort a belligerent, intoxicated former employee to the poky.
Third, support your local Sheriff. Lunch breaks will be a bit less frequent, but we get/got the point across.
Support your local Sheriff. I pay for the service, but do not act that way. They have been more than responsive to any request I have made, and the results are amazing.
Show some force, be it by tax money, out of pocket, or both.
I always support my local police. I have friends.
intothenew
07-04-2013, 08:47 PM
I always support my local police. I have friends.
Show some force, and introduce her to your friends.
rebel
07-05-2013, 10:07 AM
What about notifying the FBI with what he said and your concern for workplace violence. Perhaps they would pay a little visit.
What about notifying the FBI with what he said and your concern for workplace violence. Perhaps they would pay a little visit.
Reb, without threats, they'll just see it as a drunk getting fired.
WolfVanZandt
07-05-2013, 01:54 PM
Large companies should have security systems. It's irresponsible for them not to.
That said, we all have pretty much the same risks. We all have to interact with other people and some of those people might be irrational and dangerous. We're living in the Land of the Offended. The best thing we can do is be aware and be able to take care of ourselves.
I've seen way too many people stroll out to their car in the Wal-Mart parking lot (where we've had way too many robberies and assaults) as if they were the only people around, leisurely place their groceries in their car, get in the car, and just sit there for 15 minutes - women especially. There are predator and prey personalities and we have too many people whose body languages are shouting, "Come and get me."
cowgirlup
07-05-2013, 02:48 PM
I was going to suggest a Zaplight. http://www.trueswords.com/stun-flashlight-impact-weapon-combo-rechargeable-p-5242.html Yeah, not probably not legal in MA And you can't ship it to MA but if she has a CCL it might be OK by the state. As far as work, it's a flashlight.;)
I'm small and always carried a knife when I was an office manager. I worked in a bad part of town and if I had to use it and then got fired well then that would be the least of my worries.
If possible the company should try to get her a parking spot near the exit. She should have a plan in case she was forced to retreat. (places to go, places to hide, cover/concealment) If someone points a gun at her then keep moving.
How much later does she stay past the time when the other workers leave? Is it necessary? Could they authorize some extra time so there would always be someone to leave with her? We used a buddy system when taking the evening bank deposits.
It kinda sounds like the guy is more pissed at the CEO. But it's still not a good company policy to have anyone leaving alone that late at night in a remote area.
If possible the company should try to get her a parking spot near the exit.
If someone points a gun at her then keep moving.
How much later does she stay past the time when the other workers leave? Is it necessary? Could they authorize some extra time so there would always be someone to leave with her?
It kinda sounds like the guy is more pissed at the CEO.
I was in the middle of a post when she called me a few minutes ago. She's afraid. The guy is a gangbanger - a member of an Asian gang - with somewhat of a history. That's a game-changer.
In a few days, I'll know more about him and his whereabouts at any given moment than his mommy and the NSA know.
She has the parking spot closest to the door.
He is more pissed at the CEO. No question.
The company is going to have at least two people with her until she locks up on Fridays and when she opens up on Sunday nights. And Daddy's going to be there, too, sipping coffee with one or two friends with lots of experience in these types of matters.
The worst mistake he could ever make in his entire life would be to show up there with hostile intentions.
cowgirlup
07-05-2013, 06:40 PM
Sorry if I missed it but is there any type of security during the day or controlled access to the building? I hope the company is addressing security at all times not just focusing on when she leaves at night.
You're a good dad. :)
crashdive123
07-05-2013, 08:21 PM
Ken - I wish I lived closer. I like sipping coffee while waiting for a happy ending to a good story.:whistling:
rebel
07-05-2013, 10:38 PM
Ken Eastwood, how's the Torino?
I hope things go well.
welderguy
07-05-2013, 10:50 PM
Ken - I wish I lived closer. I like sipping coffee while waiting for a happy ending to a good story.:whistling:
Me Too !!!!
Winter
07-05-2013, 11:11 PM
Ken, get her some training with the knife. It ain't expensive and will make all the difference. Mindset and some muscle memory are the key to up close and personal conflict.
No amount of security and weapons will make up for training.
I have over 300 hrs of edged weapon training. I am not scared of ****.
Solar Geek
07-05-2013, 11:27 PM
Have you researched him? Have you followed him home or gotten his address? IF he is a gang-banger, how did he get hired and if they made a mistake, and hired a known menace, bully, ganger or someone with a record for violence then the company should take action or they risk a large lawsuit. Find out everything you can and present it to the company.
Have you run his name through all databases, checked Facebook, and all internet sites? Did he have friends at work that could shed light on his "danger quotient"?
Ok just some thoughts (and stuff I do for each of my daughter's boyfriends).
rebel
07-06-2013, 12:34 AM
12:33 your time. Waiting....
rebel
07-06-2013, 12:48 AM
Tick tock. My friends have back hoes
Have you researched him? Have you followed him home or gotten his address? IF he is a gang-banger, how did he get hired and if they made a mistake, and hired a known menace, bully, ganger or someone with a record for violence then the company should take action or they risk a large lawsuit. Find out everything you can and present it to the company.
Have you run his name through all databases, checked Facebook, and all internet sites? Did he have friends at work that could shed light on his "danger quotient"?
Ok just some thoughts (and stuff I do for each of my daughter's boyfriends).
Have you researched him? Happening as we speak. He drinks Ketel One and is still digesting his Whopper.
Have you followed him home or gotten his address? No need for ME to follow him. Have the address.
IF he is a gang-banger, how did he get hired and if they made a mistake, and hired a known menace, bully, ganger or someone with a record for violence then the company should take action or they risk a large lawsuit. No record of CONVICTIONS, but he has a lot of bad habits.
Find out everything you can and present it to the company. I will - but not sure if I'm going to share.
Have you run his name through all databases, checked Facebook, and all internet sites? Done, done, and done.
Did he have friends at work that could shed light on his "danger quotient"? Yes.
Ok just some thoughts (and stuff I do for each of my daughter's boyfriends.) LOL
Crash and Welder - the coffee will be on.
Reb - no Torinos, LOL.
Winter - the "trainer" will be having coffee with me.
Tick tock. My friends have back hoes
He may never even show his face there, which would be the best thing. Otherwise, the response will be appropriate.
rebel
07-06-2013, 01:23 AM
Hogs work too
Hogs work too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean
Sarge47
07-06-2013, 08:39 AM
Well? Anything happen?.....:confused1:
Well? Anything happen?.....:confused1:
Tomorrow night, Sarge, when she opens. The plant's closed yesterday and today for the holiday weekend.
2dumb2kwit
07-06-2013, 01:03 PM
Does Mass. share resti.....resa....recepro......is my N.C. carry permit any good, up there?
Does Mass. share resti.....resa....recepro......is my N.C. carry permit any good, up there?
I wish it was......
You don't need no stinkin' permit in Mass. If the old boy gets riddled with bullets everyone just toss their guns down and claim they were all his and he shot himself.
BENESSE
07-06-2013, 07:14 PM
Ken, what's the worst that could happen if your daughter carried a ccw at work (even though they don't permit it) and was forced to use it outside the premises?
Saving her life in self defense would surely trump whatever she was charged with later, no?
Life in prison for 1st degree manslaughter. She would be spend the next 25 years being some butch's bayitch. She would contract hepatitis and HIV. Once out on parole in 25 years she would have no skills and a felony record. She would be doomed to a life of drugs and selling herself to keep up the habit. In the end. She would die a lonely, miserable death in some run down Boston tenement and lie unclaimed in the morgue for them to dispose of.
You really don't like Ken do you?
Saddle up the horses boys the Old Farts are ridin' north.
BENESSE
07-06-2013, 07:36 PM
Life in prison for 1st degree manslaughter. She would be spend the next 25 years being some butch's bayitch. She would contract hepatitis and HIV. Once out on parole in 25 years she would have no skills and a felony record. She would be doomed to a life of drugs and selling herself to keep up the habit. In the end. She would die a lonely, miserable death in some run down Boston tenement and lie unclaimed in the morgue for them to dispose of.
You really don't like Ken do you?
Saddle up the horses boys the Old Farts are ridin' north.
Gee whiz, Rick, didn't know you wanted all those things for yourself. (some butch's bayitch?!)
Seriously, though, didn't Ken say she had a CCW permit, but just wasn't allowed to carry at work?
What if she used it right outside work for self defense? 1st degree manslaughter, really? Who knew.
Winter
07-06-2013, 08:47 PM
Rick, her carrying in violation of company policy does not make it manslaughter. You must be joking.
randyt
07-06-2013, 09:03 PM
I don't know if it was mentioned but situational awareness training would be beneficial. At 105 pounds self defense training would be great but avoidance would be great too.
hunter63
07-06-2013, 09:22 PM
I guess I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.....Just saying.
Wisconsin made a lot of people legal.
Certain parts of town are NOT the place to drive a service truck at 1:00 am.....
BENESSE
07-06-2013, 11:09 PM
I guess I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.....Just saying.
You 'n me both, Hunter.
If I concealed carried at work, no one would know unless there were metal detectors. And they would never find out unless I had to use it to save my life or that of others'. And if that happened, well, so be it...Id prefer to take my chances that way than be at a mercy of a lunatic.
1stimestar
07-06-2013, 11:29 PM
You 'n me both, Hunter.
If I concealed carried at work, no one would know unless there were metal detectors. And they would never find out unless I had to use it to save my life or that of others'. And if that happened, well, so be it...Id prefer to take my chances that way than be at a mercy of a lunatic.
Egggs Zactly!
Rick, her carrying in violation of company policy does not make it manslaughter. You must be joking.
She did mention using it in self defense. But yeah, it was a joke.
B - You asked what's the worse that could happen so I tried to answer your question. That's about the worse case I could come up with.
Most companies will not allow you to even have a weapon on the property. That includes the parking lot. Most states support that. Read your employment clauses carefully. It's cause for dismissal in most cases. In some cases that might include edged weapons.
Indiana just recently passed a law that allows you to carry your weapon in your vehicle on company property even if the company opposes weapons on property. It prevents the company from taking any action against you for having a weapon in your vehicle on their property. You still can not conceal carry inside with a CC permit unless the company allows it.
BENESSE
07-07-2013, 09:02 AM
Rick, I absolutely get all that. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't dream of taking chances, but this is different. If my life was on the line, and no one could find out that I am carrying unless and until I had to use the weapon, I know I would take that chance.
I was wondering, from a legal POV, what Ken thought the ramifications could be in MA.
I don't understand why you would want to take that chance when so many other options are available. To each his own but as long as I have options I will employ them rather than take a chance on losing my ability to carry legally or worse.
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6 is all well and good but that implies no other option. If you find yourself in a position of having to defend yourself with lethal force then you have failed all the avoidance and non-lethal means that you could have used. You may well find yourself in that position or chose to invoke lethal force depending on circumstances (I'm probably not going to be asking a lot of questions at 3 a.m. if someone is standing in my hallway). But you might also find yourself locked in a cage for a very long time and lose the ability to ever legally posses a weapon again if those 12 don't agree with your decision.
Thanks, everyone, for all of the advice. She's meeting with the CEO and VPs tomorrow morning.
For now, it boils down to this: The guy made NO threats. The police will not get involved at this point. She can't carry on the premises.
Fathers are allowed to drop off their daughters and pick them up. So that's what I'm going to do for the time being.
I'm having a friend come along for the ride tonight. Coincidently, he happens to be a law enforcement training instructor for one of the gun manufacturers that we talk about here quite often. We're going to hang around there for a while, and spend some quality time talking about some of the places he's visited in the last few years, courtesy of the US government.
My little girl will be as safe as she was when she sat on Daddy's lap watching The Little Mermaid for 87th. time.
Batch
07-07-2013, 11:43 AM
Rick, you will not be judged by a jury nor will you lose your right to carry a firearm for carrying with a concealed permit at work.
You may lose your job if you are discovered. But, as long as you promptly leave the property when asked there is no violation of any laws that I am aware of unless your state specifically lists the type of business as non-permissive. Carrying in a non-permissive area at least in Florida is a misdemeanor and usually needs to be willful, so I guess she forgot she had it on her. Either way even a conviction for carrying in a non-permissive area is not going to cost you your right to carry.
If you have to use the firearm to protect your life, does your keeping your job even come into consideration? That would be one hell of a job if you answer yes. The job of a lifetime, maybe...
welderguy
07-07-2013, 11:45 AM
In reference to Carrying a firearm at work when prohibited, I would rather be fired for having it because if they fired me for it , that means I had to pull it to stop a threat, and to me saving a life is worth my job.
Batch - You completely misread my post. My response was to B who's premise was that she used it. See post 58.
welderguy
07-07-2013, 04:24 PM
Batch - You completely misread my post. My response was to B who's premise was that she used it. See post 58.
Rick, I reread it again. You are saying that a legal CCW holder will go to jail if they use it at work and violate a company firearms policy! Can you explain why you say that? Im not familiar with Mass CCW laws, but in Texas unless its a state or federal building or job, all your getting is fired for using your weapon in self defense or the defense of another.
BENESSE
07-07-2013, 05:24 PM
In reference to Carrying a firearm at work when prohibited, I would rather be fired for having it because if they fired me for it , that means I had to pull it to stop a threat, and to me saving a life is worth my job.
My feeling exactly.
BENESSE
07-07-2013, 05:27 PM
Post 58, Rick was referring to:
Ken, what's the worst that could happen if your daughter carried a ccw at work (even though they don't permit it) and was forced to use it outside the premises?
Saving her life in self defense would surely trump whatever she was charged with later, no?
I'm still agreement with with Welderguy.
Batch
07-07-2013, 05:35 PM
I was specifically responding to this later reply Rick. I am a huge fan of situational awareness and avoidance. The options are not as clear as you have stated. While I am not speaking specifically of Ken's daughters situation, even if you are armed you are behind the curve in most Situations. You have to react. Still, if someone comes at me or mine with the intention of taking our lives I will always prefer to fight back then the alternatives. Or to very least have that option.
but, in no situation yet presented would a person who is lawfully carrying a firearm AGAINST company policy would that person face a jury in the event of a lawful defensive situation. If they guy shows up belligerent and confrontational you should go to high alert. But, until he poses a believable threat you cannot use lethal force. But, being prepared for that event is no crime regardless of the company policies.
I don't understand why you would want to take that chance when so many other options are available. To each his own but as long as I have options I will employ them rather than take a chance on losing my ability to carry legally or worse.
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6 is all well and good but that implies no other option. If you find yourself in a position of having to defend yourself with lethal force then you have failed all the avoidance and non-lethal means that you could have used. You may well find yourself in that position or chose to invoke lethal force depending on circumstances (I'm probably not going to be asking a lot of questions at 3 a.m. if someone is standing in my hallway). But you might also find yourself locked in a cage for a very long time and lose the ability to ever legally posses a weapon again if those 12 don't agree with your decision.
welderguy
07-07-2013, 05:57 PM
I was specifically responding to this later reply Rick. I am a huge fan of situational awareness and avoidance. The options are not as clear as you have stated. While I am not speaking specifically of Ken's daughters situation, even if you are armed you are behind the curve in most Situations. You have to react. Still, if someone comes at me or mine with the intention of taking our lives I will always prefer to fight back then the alternatives. Or to very least have that option.
but, in no situation yet presented would a person who is lawfully carrying a firearm AGAINST company policy would that person face a jury in the event of a lawful defensive situation. If they guy shows up belligerent and confrontational you should go to high alert. But, until he poses a believable threat you cannot use lethal force. But, being prepared for that event is no crime regardless of the company policies.
I agree 100%.
You may well find yourself in that position or chose to invoke lethal force depending on circumstances (I'm probably not going to be asking a lot of questions at 3 a.m. if someone is standing in my hallway). But you might also find yourself locked in a cage for a very long time and lose the ability to ever legally posses a weapon again if those 12 don't agree with your decision.
But you are welcome to interpret however you want.
welderguy
07-07-2013, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Rick
You may well find yourself in that position or chose to invoke lethal force depending on circumstances (I'm probably not going to be asking a lot of questions at 3 a.m. if someone is standing in my hallway). But you might also find yourself locked in a cage for a very long time and lose the ability to ever legally posses a weapon again if those 12 don't agree with your decision.
[/I][/COLOR]
But you are welcome to interpret however you want.
You forget Rick, some of us live in a States that allow people to protect themselves, not all of us live in germany USA run by a little hitler. I know of one such case that the shooter faced charges, why because after his daughter was attacked he called the guy up and dared him to come to his house, the dumb @ss showed up and BANG that was it. had dad walked in during the attack he would have been patted on the back for a job well done.
True as long as you and the State's Attorney agree on the definition of Self Defense. I didn't forget anything. I live in Indiana where common sense still exists. But the subject was Massachusetts where it is now extinct.
welderguy
07-07-2013, 07:46 PM
True as long as you and the State's Attorney agree on the definition of Self Defense. I didn't forget anything. I live in Indiana where common sense still exists. But the subject was Massachusetts where it is now extinct.
too true.!!!
rebel
07-08-2013, 02:56 AM
Want to hear something funny?
A lawyer ain't asking "what to do". Get a clue people! Do you think he needs your "expert" advise. If so, I have some nice land for sale.
As I hoped, we had a quiet and uneventful night.
The conversation was between B and I but thanks for the clue.
I'm glad it was uneventful, Ken. Hopefully, he's moved on and there won't be any problems.
2dumb2kwit
07-08-2013, 08:01 AM
Want to hear something funny?
A lawyer ain't asking "what to do". Get a clue people! Do you think he needs your "expert" advise. If so, I have some nice land for sale.
Think of it as a pop quiz.:whistling:
Rifleman45
07-08-2013, 08:33 AM
As one that has worked the 3rd shift for 15 years, I can tell you that most security company's pay minimum wage, and quite frankly, you get what you pay for. I cant count the number of times Ive walked past the security desk only to find the person paid to protect us, sound asleep. Your always better off in numbers, but failing that, positional awareness and being prepared are key. Having her hand in her purse on a large can of pepper spray and a stun gun at the ready will do far more then a sleeping unarmed security person. They are only there for display and to dial 911 if something wakes them up. As an example, last week, someone went up to the parking security attendant and told them they needed the keys to the jeep in parked in a specified spot and they had lost their ticket. Needless to say, the jeep is now on a hot sheet. That security person was not fired, but was transferred to another account.
gryffynklm
07-08-2013, 09:25 AM
Ken, Glad to read things went quiet.
rebel
07-09-2013, 11:10 PM
Glad things went well.
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yellowcab
12-24-2025, 06:36 PM
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yellowcab
03-24-2026, 12:36 AM
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чита (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/789619)Look (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/602999)карм (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/602030)Fall (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/607516)Sela (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603647)Sela (http://jobstress.ru/t/603608)Eleg (http://jogformation.ru/t/608374)вкле (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/676978)OZON (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/845277)Bass (http://journallubricator.ru/t/550179)XVII (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/661765)Фруа (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/663365)Прил (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/679272)VIII (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/642931)Carn (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/768598)
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yellowcab
03-24-2026, 12:38 AM
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yellowcab
06-03-2026, 07:21 AM
geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)
lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
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gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)
kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)
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