Zimmerman trial question for Ken

[2dumb2kwit]

How can the judge allow Zimmermans school records and past employment application records be used to show him as a cop wanna-be, but not allow Martins records that show his thug ways?

[Ken]

How can the judge allow Zimmermans school records and past employment application records be used to show him as a cop wanna-be, but not allow Martins records that show his thug ways?

It goes to the issue of "motive." He can admit the records so long as he makes two findings of law. First, that the proffered evidence is relevant. Second, that the probative value outweighs the prejudicial effect. Zimmerman can then offer evidence to refute what the records suggest.

In the case of Martin's records, his "thug ways" may not rise to the level of admissibility, and he's not around to refute anything the records could suggest. However, Martin's "thug ways" (his propensity for violence, if any) would likely be relevant and admissible if Zimmerman had been aware of them before the confrontation took place. In this case, there is no evidence that Zimmerman even knew Martin. Martin was not doing anything wrong or aggressive - he was walking home.

But let me ask you this: if you were walking on public streets, minding your own business, and became aware that someone was stalking you, and that person continued to stalk you, in the dark, would you have a reasonable apprehension that the stalker may intend to cause you harm? Under the circumstances, at least until the point of the actual confrontation, Zimmerman was clearly the aggressor.

Anyone carrying a firearm should try to AVOID unnecessary confrontation to eliminate the possibility of exactly what happened here. There are numerous legitimate reasons to use a firearm. Killing an unarmed man because an incident you caused escalated into something more is not one of them, even if you got punched in the face for stalking someone and placing them in fear for their life. The facts suggest that Martin was in fear of Zimmerman. Obviously, that fear was justified.

I'm not following the trial closely, but from what I've read, the judge has given the defense A LOT more leeway than we get in Mass.

[2dumb2kwit]

The ability to refute the impressions of past actions is what I was missing. I hadn't thought of that.

As for the trial, at first, my thoughts were that both of them made bad decisions that escalated a bad situation into a deadly one. The more of the trial I see (I'm not watching every minute of it, though.) the less fault I see as Zimmermans.

[Old GI]

Another question: I understand Zimmerman's parents are not allowed in the courtroom because they are on the witness list. Martin's parents have been in the courtroom the whole time. What happens if one or both of Martin's parents are called as witnesses (they must not have been on the original list or they would have been barred as well). What am I missing?

[Ken]

Another question: I understand Zimmerman's parents are not allowed in the courtroom because they are on the witness list. Martin's parents have been in the courtroom the whole time. What happens if one or both of Martin's parents are called as witnesses (they must not have been on the original list or they would have been barred as well). What am I missing?

Witnesses are sequestered in the great majority of trials. I can't conceive of the judge allowing either of Martin's parents to testify, given the fact that they've been sitting in the courtroom.

[Ken]

I'm watching the trial now. I cannot believe how incompetent the prosecution is. Without any objection, Zimmerman's expert witness on "self defense" has been allowed to testify to a number things far beyond his scope of expertise.

It seems like the prosecution, defense, and judge have never heard of the Rules of Evidence.

On another note, I envy lawyers who practice in states that allow depositions in criminal proceedings.

[2dumb2kwit]

Witnesses are sequestered in the great majority of trials. I can't conceive of the judge allowing either of Martin's parents to testify, given the fact that they've been sitting in the courtroom.

Just so you know, both of Martins parents have been allowed to testify.

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm watching the trial now. I cannot believe how incompetent the prosecution is. Without any objection, Zimmerman's expert witness on "self defense" has been allowed to testify to a number things far beyond his scope of expertise.

It seems like the prosecution, defense, and judge have never heard of the Rules of Evidence.

On another note, I envy lawyers who practice in states that allow depositions in criminal proceedings.

Did you know about the defense lawyer getting the lead investigator to say that he believed Zimmermans story? The following day, the prosecuting attorney objected, and the judge instructed the jury to disregard the detectives statement from the previous day. LOL

[Ken]

Did you know about the defense lawyer getting the lead investigator to say that he believed Zimmermans story? The following day, the prosecuting attorney objected, and the judge instructed the jury to disregard the detectives statement from the previous day. LOL

The prosecutor has to be sleeping through this trial. I would have been on my feet objecting at least 50% of the time.

[karatediver]

Yea, reminds me of a trial I was on where the accused made multiple comments about it being their third strike felony. Each time their own attorney had to object and we had to be instructed to disregard the statement made by the accused. After about the third time they were stupid enough to offer that bit of information and we were told to disregard it I don't think it was very effective telling us to do that over and over about the same thing.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yea, reminds me of a trial I was on where the accused made multiple comments about it being their third strike felony. Each time their own attorney had to object and we had to be instructed to disregard the statement made by the accused. After about the third time they were stupid enough to offer that bit of information and we were told to disregard it I don't think it was very effective telling us to do that over and over about the same thing.

Yep. It's kind of hard to un-hear something. LOL
I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me, that this defense attorney is doing his job. He even used questions about who's voice was crying for help, to have the booted out police chief give enough information about what went on (Involving the tape.) to show how the case was taken from law enforcement and put in the hands of politicians, to be brought to trial. I thought that was pretty slick.

[karatediver]

I'm just bracing for the rioting. You never know with juries but the defense has in my opinion pummeled the prosecution in this case. I fear if Zimmerman is found not guilty urban areas will be chaotic with looting, burning, and rioting. I remember what happened after Rodney King here in California.

[crashdive123]

I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me, that this defense attorney is doing his job. He even used questions about who's voice was crying for help, to have the booted out police chief give enough information about what went on (Involving the tape.) to show how the case was taken from law enforcement and put in the hands of politicians, to be brought to trial. I thought that was pretty slick.

There is soooooooo much wrong about this trial. The prosecutor's actions say (to me) "I didn't want to try this POS case in the first place" which supports your comment about politicians. Angela Corey - the State Attorney that brought charges has (had?) a pretty good reputation around here. I was a supporter of hers. In a news interview, when charges were filed, she said that she sat with Trayvon's parents and prayed over it. Kind of a conflict IMO. Also - the state's first star witness - the one with the "trial nails" was being interviewed by prosecutors in front of Trayvon's mom. What? Really?

To add to the "politics" of it - the Department of Justice seems to have been involved in stirring racial tensions after the death of Trayvon Martin. They were also instrumental in the protests that resulted in the firing/resignation of the Sanford Police Chief. http://www.judicialwatch.org/bulletins/doj-sends-secret-peacekeepers-where-trayvon-martin-was-killed/

[Rick]

It seems to me that this is what happens when two dumb azzes mix it up. Neither of them should have been doing what they were doing and both of them escalated the confrontation until someone got dead. A whole lot of dumb.

[Ken]

Defense Question: "Would you encourage or discourage your child from pursuing a career in law enforcement?"

Question is answered without objection.

WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THAT??????????????? Did the prosecutor REALLY go to law school?

[Ken]

Defense counsel is on re-direct and is opening entirely new lines of questioning? HUH?

[BENESSE]

Why does it seem as though prosecutors are generally less competent than the defense?
Is it because their lawyers work for the state and defense is private and less political/better paid?

[Beo]

Prosecutors hands are tied more with "burden of proof" also remember all states are a little different, here in Ohio prosecutors could bring in his prior thug record, goes to show why Zimmerman watched and followed him. Notice how the media always posts a nice pic of Martin, not the gold grilled tattooed sag'n pants punk. He didn't have a clean record but he didn't deserve to die either, also Zimmerman was carrying ccw, not allowed while doing block watch or citizen patrol. Both idiots were wrong and one idiot ended up dying for it. Sad.
See now that was a politically correct Beo answer.. Lol.
BUT why is it, the family of the dead idiot always says "he was a good boy, he was turning his life around" boo frig'n hoo.

[JPGreco]

I'm just bracing for the rioting. You never know with juries but the defense has in my opinion pummeled the prosecution in this case. I fear if Zimmerman is found not guilty urban areas will be chaotic with looting, burning, and rioting. I remember what happened after Rodney King here in California.

That is something I just don't understand. A mob forms pissed about racial something and then loot and burn their own neighborhoods and businesses. Yeah, that's gonna make me think more highly of you, you really showed me. Only thing it shows is that there is a whole hell of a lot of stupid out there in this world and a most lawyers and politicians don't help the matter at all (no offense ken, but there are a lot of lawyers that make things worse, and I'm sure you can attest to that better than I can).

[Beo]

JPGreco... I gotta cosign on that one, great point.

[Ken]

A mob forms pissed about racial something and then loot and burn their own neighborhoods and businesses. Yeah, that's gonna make me think more highly of you, you really showed me.

I witnessed it first hand in Waterbury, Connecticut, in 1969. I was staying with some cousins in a nearby town. We'd drive into Waterbury a few times a week to scope out what had burned down since our last trip there. Unbelievable.

[JPGreco]

Well, we'll see what happens this time around, though most large groups tend to lose the vision of why they formed in the first place it seems....

I haven't been following the trial (I tend to avoid most televised trials because they seem to be of little more value than reality tv). I do read articles about the days proceedings and agree with those of you who said wtf to objecting a day after the fact. Seriously? If I were a judge I wouldn't accept objections on any question once a new question has been asked. You snooze, you lose. Unless of course there was some huge breach of conduct or something, but then I would hope that as a judge, I would be aware of it and inform the lawyer that it was unacceptable. My brother is a lawyer (only 28yrs old so pretty green still), but he's told us some funny stuff from court cases he's been to (usually helping his friends in traffic court and minor offenses so far).

I mean, I'm personally torn on stand your ground laws. I mean, I do believe a person has a right to defend themselves, but to say you're permitted to kill an assailant is a bit far reaching IMO. The problem is that there are so many crazy people out there you don't know if you're just gonna get punched and your phone stolen or if they are gonna douse you in something and lite you on fire for not giving them a dollar. In your own home is an entirely different story though. There should be federal castle laws that allow for deadly force on any trespasser inside your home.

[cowgirlup]

Prosecutors hands are tied more with "burden of proof" also remember all states are a little different, here in Ohio prosecutors could bring in his prior thug record, goes to show why Zimmerman watched and followed him. Notice how the media always posts a nice pic of Martin, not the gold grilled tattooed sag'n pants punk. He didn't have a clean record but he didn't deserve to die either, also Zimmerman was carrying ccw, not allowed while doing block watch or citizen patrol. Both idiots were wrong and one idiot ended up dying for it. Sad.
See now that was a politically correct Beo answer.. Lol.
BUT why is it, the family of the dead idiot always says "he was a good boy, he was turning his life around" boo frig'n hoo.

FWIW Zimmerman was not on watch. he was on his way to the store and noticed the kid walking between the buildings looking around. From what I have learned from following the trial, Zimmerman followed him because the police dispatcher asked where he went so Z went and looked. Then he was looking for an address to send the PD to. He was on his way back to his car when he was jumped.

[Old GI]

Ken: This reminds me of when I was on the jury for a one-day trial. Literally, the entire jury (and Judge) thought the ADA and defense attorney switched places. Everything, including witnesses, proved the other side's case. On the way out, I saw the Judge in her office and I told her what we thought of the attorneys and she just rolled her eyes and gave the "no comment" reply.

[Ken]

I just watched the Prosecution's closing argument. I can honestly say that I've watched better closing arguments from lawyers trying their very first trials.

[crashdive123]

I watched some of it. He kept giving multiple sides and scenarios and saying "you will decide". If I were on the jury I'd say that the prosecution, in their closing has created reasonable doubt in my mind.

[Winter]

http://nerdice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/HomerEatingPopcorn.jpg

[JPGreco]

And the verdict is in....

Not Guilty

[Ken]

Florida should send it's murder prosecution team up here to Massachusetts. They could watch and learn a lot when our newest assistant district attorneys prosecute simple assault cases.

Seriously, the prosecution was absolutely bush league.

[Sarge47]

Check it out:

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/65284-breaking-george-zimmer-found-not-guilty/

:thumbup:

[JPGreco]

As I said, I didn't actually watch any of the proceedings, nor did i watch the verdict reading, just saw the headlines.

We'll see what kind of social unrest follows as the interwebz are already ablaze with dissenting opinions on the verdict. I will say I disagree that "justice" was served since what really happened is unknown, but I don't think zimmerman deserved life in prison either.

[Ken]

Check it out:

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/65284-breaking-george-zimmer-found-not-guilty/

:thumbup:

Don't celebrate too hard, Sarge. He can still be prosecuted - BY THE FEDS.

[Beo]

Hmm, no riots, is that because everyone knew he did just defend himself... or do the people that were crying out so much just stop caring? Anyway I'm glad there were no riots. I was on the front lines here in Cincy 2001 when the riots happened over the Tim Thomas case. A dirt bag with 17 warrants (misdemeanor drug warrants n a few others) who was spotted and ran, the cop shot him and he died, the trial was good though and the cops were found not guilty but had broken departmental procedures and let go. They rioted we made a stand, blah blah blah, end result they burned and looted in their own neighborhoods, hurt a few innocent people, we arrested them and everyone moved on.

[randyt]

Don't celebrate too hard, Sarge. He can still be prosecuted - BY THE FEDS.

What is the chance of that?

[Ken]

What is the chance of that?

Who's the president? Who's the attorney general? Who's son would have looked like Trayvon?

[Ken]

There's a reason that Zimmerman wasn't up there giving an interview with his lawyers after the verdict.

[randyt]

Who's the president? Who's the attorney general? Who's son would have looked like Trayvon?

I was thinking that too, we live in different times now.

In the past was it common for the feds to try a case after a state found a defendant not guilty?

[Ken]

Civil Rights Murders? Yep.

[Ken]

Zimmerman had best keep his mouth shut for the rest of his life. There's no federal statute of limitations on murder.

[Sarge47]

This is why I listen to Ken regarding criminal cases. Don't know how true this is:

http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130713002-gz-ng.html

https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/y4/r/-PAXP-deijE.gif (http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130713002-gz-ng.html)Zimmerman Not Guilty. Obama Administration Considering Federal Charges
(http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130713002-gz-ng.html)www.reagancoalition.com (http://www.reagancoalition.comThere)There is a lot of precedent for this.

[randyt]

not to go off on a tangent but curiosity makes me ask. Under the premise of civil rights murderers could oj simpson be brought up on federal charges? I know it's not going to happen. If I remember correctly wasn't the guy that was killed jewish?

[Seniorman]

not to go off on a tangent but curiosity makes me ask. Under the premise of civil rights murderers could oj simpson be brought up on federal charges? I know it's not going to happen. If I remember correctly wasn't the guy that was killed jewish?

Yes, he was Jewish. Ron Goldman.

S.M.

[rebel]

I have two questions. The neighborhood where Trayvon Martin was shot, would that be a normal path between the store and to his dad's place? Did the problem of break-ins for that neighborhood stop after Trayvon Martin was shot?

[rebel]

The news is saying the NAACP is talking to Holder about a civil rights charge.

[welderguy]

The news is saying the NAACP is talking to Holder about a civil rights charge.

Dose not surprise me, didn't that same thing happen to OJ ?

[BENESSE]

Not being up on every little detail of the evidence/testimony, I only wonder why it was OK for Zimmerman to get out of his car & confront Martin after he called 911 and was told something to the effect of the police was on it's way and to leave it alone?

I was expecting manslaughter based on this issue alone and can understand how some people might get royally pi$$ed.

[welderguy]

Not being up on every little detail of the evidence/testimony, I only wonder why it was OK for Zimmerman to get out of his car & confront Martin after he called 911 and was told something to the effect of the police was on it's way and to leave it alone?

I was expecting manslaughter based on this issue alone and can understand how some people might get royally pi$$ed.

I havent followed it other than the news blips about the trial, I thought Zimmerman was on foot didnt know he got out of his car.

[Ken]

Not being up on every little detail of the evidence/testimony, I only wonder why it was OK for Zimmerman to get out of his car & confront Martin after he called 911 and was told something to the effect of the police was on it's way and to leave it alone?

I was expecting manslaughter based on this issue alone and can understand how some people might get royally pi$$ed.


Agreed 100%. I suspect that I'm in the minority here, but I genuinely believe that Zimmerman should be serving a looooooooong prison sentence.

[welderguy]

From what Ive been reading, and hearing, kinda looks like zimmerman decided that this kid was the root of all the neighborhood problems and played vigilante, Im surprised he got off of any charges. sounds like he does deserve a long vacation at club steel bars.

[Batch]

Zimmerman's actions may have set into motion the events that caused a fatal conflict. That doesn't necessarily mean he violated anyone's rights or any laws. His statements have consistently matched up with his being in fear for his life due to the beating he says he was receiving when he shot Trayvon.

Under Florida law he cannot be arrested if there is no evidence that he believed and acted otherwise. He should have never been held at all.

It is tragic that Trayvon died. But, not all tragedies are crimes.


Under what authority does a dispatcher have to direct you not to move about a common area of a housing complex that you have a right to be in? So, even if he did continue to walk in that area he has broken no law. Following someone or asking them why they are where they are or what they are doing is not a crime. The crime starts with the first punch or onset of the altercation. Only one person living knows what happened there.

So, unless you have evidence beyond any reasonable doubt that proves what he says did not happen, you have no crime.

B, you cannot convict someone on manslaughter because they didn't comply with a comment made by a dispatcher, "We don't need you to do that."

Racism, BTW, in this case is not one sided. There were threats of retaliation if the "right" verdict isn't found. I feel that is not a freedom of speech, it is a threat meant to sway a verdict and that, I thought was a crime.

[crashdive123]

Not being up on every little detail of the evidence/testimony, I only wonder why it was OK for Zimmerman to get out of his car & confront Martin after he called 911 and was told something to the effect of the police was on it's way and to leave it alone?

I was expecting manslaughter based on this issue alone and can understand how some people might get royally pi$$ed.


I havent followed it other than the news blips about the trial, I thought Zimmerman was on foot didnt know he got out of his car.


Agreed 100%. I suspect that I'm in the minority here, but I genuinely believe that Zimmerman should be serving a looooooooong prison sentence.

Here's the timeline of events as they were presented along with some background.

There had been several break-ins in the neighborhood.

That night - TM was observed by GZ walking along a row of residences, not out on the side walk.

GZ called 911. He was asked if the person was white, black, hispanic..... His response was that he wasn't sure, but he might be black.

He was asked where is TM now. He got out of the vehicle to see. The 911 dispatcher (not a police officer) said "We don't need you to do that" at which point he headed back to his vehicle.

On the way to his vehicle TM came up to him and asked him if he had a problem. GZ responded - no.

At this point TM said "you do now" and punched him in the face. He then got on top of him and started beating him.


Up until the point where the first punch was thrown no laws were broken be either of them. Was bad judgement used? That's arguable. If my neighborhood had had several break ins I would have actually confronted (and have done so on several occasions) a stranger that was in a neighbor's yard.

The first and only time any laws were broken were when TM assaulted GZ.

IMO any verdict other than not guilty would have been based on emotion, not the facts or law in the case.

[cowgirlup]

What Crash said. Anyone who is upset about this verdict has not been paying attention to the actual facts of this case.

[Ken]

Crash, other than for the generic facts, you're accepting Zimmerman's version of events as fact.

One thing I've learned in my almost 30 years of criminal trial practice, having represented dozens of defendants in murder, homicide, attempted murder, armed robbery, rape, and life-felony trials, is that people lie, and some lie more convincingly than others.

I'll be posting more on this soon.

[Winter]

If you can't convince 6 woman that a little boy was murdered, then you didn't have a case. Samford didn't even attempt to try the case, the media forced the state of Florida to try the case with no evidence.

The whole thing was a setup to divide the country further.

[Rick]

Seriously? I'd love to have heard that conversation.

"Okay, Treyvon, we going to murder you so we can divide the country. How's that sound?"

"Uh, okay I guess. Wait. Do what?"

[Winter]

The aftermath Rick. Geez.

Did you know the state prosecuter decided to try the case without a grand jury indictment?

Has that ever happened?

[Ken]

CRASH: Here's the timeline of events as they were presented along with some background.

KEN: As they were presented by the facts AND BY ZIMMERMAN.

CRASH: There had been several break-ins in the neighborhood.

KEN: There had been breaks. I didn't watch most of the trial. Was evidence introduced about the dates, times, and proximity of those breaks to where Martin's death took place?

CRASH: That night - TM was observed by GZ walking along a row of residences, not out on the side walk.

KEN: So says Zimmerman. There is no evidence to corroborate his statements.

CRASH: GZ called 911. He was asked if the person was white, black, hispanic..... His response was that he wasn't sure, but he might be black.

KEN: Agreed. I've never claimed that race was an issue here, although that doesn't mean that Zimmerman's comment "he might be black" didn't affect Zimmerman's actions. That's something we may never know.

CRASH: He was asked where is TM now. He got out of the vehicle to see. The 911 dispatcher (not a police officer) said "We don't need you to do that" at which point he headed back to his vehicle.

KEN: Agreed, except for Zimmerman's self serving statement that he was heading back to his vehicle. There's no independent evidence to corroborate that.

CRASH: On the way to his vehicle TM came up to him and asked him if he had a problem. GZ responded - no.

KEN: That's Zimmerman's version of events. There's no independent evidence to corroborate that.

CRASH: At this point TM said "you do now" and punched him in the face. He then got on top of him and started beating him.

KEN: That's Zimmerman's version of events. There's no independent evidence to corroborate that.

CRASH: Up until the point where the first punch was thrown no laws were broken be either of them.

KEN: In order to accept that as fact, you have to believe Zimmerman's version of events up to that point. We KNOW that Martin hadn't broken any laws. We also know that Zimmerman was stalking Martin in the dark. When Martin realized he was being stalked, was it reasonable for him to be in fear of Zimmerman's intentions? YES. Is it possible or even likely that Zimmerman, a guy who knew he couldn't hold his own in a fight, brandished his weapon when the confrontation took place? YES. Could Zimmerman's actions, reasonably placing Martin in fear for his life/safety, be considered an assault by Zimmerman? YES. Was Martin out looking for trouble? No. Was Zimmerman? Zimmerman was acting out his wannabe' cop fantasies.

CRASH: Was bad judgement used? That's arguable.

KEN: I honestly believe that there were two instances of bad judgment: Zimmerman's actions and the jury's verdict.

CRASH: If my neighborhood had had several break ins I would have actually confronted (and have done so on several occasions) a stranger that was in a neighbor's yard.

KEN: So would/have I and my neighbors as well. However, Zimmerman didn't even know where he was. He had no idea who lived there or if Martin belonged there. There was no evidence that Martin was looking through windows, attempting to hide, checking to see if doors/windows were unlocked.... There was NOTHING there except for Zimmerman's over-active, blatantly inaccurate, wannabe' cop imagination. There's a big difference between confronting a stranger lurking in a neighbor's back yard when you know he doesn't belong there and confronting a kid in unfamiliar territory.

CRASH: The first and only time any laws were broken were when TM assaulted GZ.

KEN: That's Zimmerman's version of events. There's no independent evidence to corroborate that, and TM isn't here to tell you otherwise.

CRASH: IMO any verdict other than not guilty would have been based on emotion, not the facts or law in the case.

KEN: The prosecution did a terrible job in this trial. From what I was able to watch of the trial, I feel that the words "ineffective" and "grossly incompetent" are good descriptors of the prosecution team. For example, who in the world ever dreamed up that reenactment with the dummy? Why did the judge even allow it????? Nonetheless, there were clearly sufficient facts to return a guilty verdict, at least on the lesser-included offense of manslaughter.

[Seniorman]

I agree with Crashdive.

Ken, unless you watched all or almost all the trial, or have read the complete trial transcript -- and I doubt that it is available yet -- I wonder on what basis you have come to the conclusion that Zimmerman should spend years and years in prison???

I watched about 90% of the Zimmerman trial, missing some on day one and some on day two. The evidence presented by the defense was overwhelmingly in favor of Zimmerman's innocence. The prosecutors were flailing and tilting at windmills throughout the trial. The prosecution also withheld crucial evidence from the defense.

Zimmerman was not following Martin after the 9-1-1 operator said, "We don't need you to do that." He was walking back to his vehicle when Martin came up behind him.

The timeline as provided by Zimmerman's telephone calls plus the call from Martin to his girlfriend during the incident, plus a call by a witness to 9-1-1, proved that Zimmerman was attacked first, being hit on the nose with a sucker punch by Martin which put Z on the ground. Martin jumped on him and was slamming Z's head against the concrete. After several times his head hit the concrete, Z, in fear for his life or great bodily harm, managed to pull his legally carried handgun and fired one shot. End of fight.

The cops thought he acted in self defense, the Chief of Police thought he acted in self defense, and the D.A. thought he acted in self defense. But it immediately became a political issue due to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Obama and Holder getting into the act and a special prosecutor was appointed to charge Z. with murder because he was "a racist," who murdered "a poor little black child who was just minding his own business," etc. It became a political show trial, with incessant disinformation, misinformation, bias and lies vomited out by the Obamamedia.

It was a trial about self defense, not about racism, or "stand your ground," or CCWs, etc. It was about the Right of self defense, no matter how the Obamamedia skewed and distorted it.

Six women found Zimmerman "Not Guilty" because the evidence presented by the defense proved its case to the jury members and the prosecution's "evidence" was practically nonexistent.

The controversy, of course, will continue for a long time, along with the misinformation and disinformation.

My take on it, having watched most of the trial.

S.M.

[Ken]

Okay. Is it possible that Martin was walking through yards to escape from the guy stalking him?

Even believing Zimmerman's version of events, does anyone here honestly believe that Martin would have attacked him if Zimmerman hadn't been stalking him?

Zimmerman's persona, history, and motives were all in evidence. I'd bet my front teeth that Zimmerman had his hand on his weapon when the two confronted each other.

Even believing Zimmerman's version of events, if I was unarmed and minding my own business, and I realized that someone was stalking me for a good distance in the dark, and given the likelihood that (as was likely in Martin's case) that I believed that person was armed, you can be pretty damned sure that I would have acted the same way that Martin did in the hope of preventing the stalker from using his weapon on me.

[Winter]

Ok, Ken, lets say you are Zimmerman and you are getting curb stomped. You have a gun. Do you shoot the stomper or no?

[randyt]

if you have time to call your girlfriend, you have time to call 911. If the guy following is presumed armed would a unarmed person provoke a confrontation. there are a lot of ifs.

[Ken]

We consistently advise members here to make sure that they have the knowledge, skills, and training necessary, so that they don't unnecessarily place their lives at risk when they venture off into the wilderness.

That very same advice should apply to any loser who wants to act out his wannabe' cop vigilante fantasies, especially when one of the lives he's placing at risk isn't his own.

[BENESSE]

I'm with Ken on this.
Plus...no one mentioned this bit of exchange...(which, more likely, suggests GZ following TM)
TM: (after noticing that GZ was following him) Why are you following me?
GZ: What are you talking about?

Also, TM on the phone to his girl friend about some creepy a$$ cracker; now, why would he want to follow & confront a "creepy a$$ cracker" who was (allegedly) walking away from him?

GZ changed his story many times since the beginning of this incident. Does that mean anything to anybody?

[Ken]

Ok, Ken, lets say you are Zimmerman and you are getting curb stomped. You have a gun. Do you shoot the stomper or no?

Did Martin KNOW that Zimmerman had a gun, and was he trying to prevent the stalker from using it? We'll never know.

Quite honestly, Zimmerman's the one who kept raising the ante. The mere fact that he stalked and confronted someone who was able to fight back doesn't give him the right to kill the kid.

Let me give you an example that adopts your line of thinking: You walk into a liquor store and start stuffing bottles into your pockets. The owner confronts you and grabs you. A struggle ensues, the owner is getting the best of you, and you're probably going to be seriously injured. Does that give you the right to pull out a gun and shoot and kill the owner in self defense?

The way I see it is this: People should mind their own business. If they don't, they had damned well better be correct in their assumptions, because otherwise they should be held accountable for whatever happens, even if things escalate.

Let's say you're leaving a restaurant, and while walking to you car you come upon a guy in street clothes holding two well dressed men at gunpoint with a cocked firearm. Are you going to draw your weapon on the armed man? Are you going to order him to drop his weapon? Are you going to shoot and kill him "in defense of others?" Well, let's say you do just that, only to learn that the guy with the gun was an undercover cop who was waiting for back-up because he had just arrested two armed drug dealers. There's A LOT to be said for minding your own friggen business unless you're absolutely certain about what's going down.


if you have time to call your girlfriend, you have time to call 911. If the guy following is presumed armed would a unarmed person provoke a confrontation. there are a lot of ifs.

I suggest that the kid was scared and didn't know what to do. Martin didn't provoke a damned thing. Zimmerman did. Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground. Martin was.

[Ken]

GZ changed his story many times since the beginning of this incident. Does that mean anything to anybody?

Yes. It means that he was lying through his teeth to save his own azz. I evaluate a person's truthfulness based upon their persona, history, consistency, motives, and what they have on the line at time of trial.

I placed ZERO CREDIBILITY in every single one of Zimmerman's statements.

[BENESSE]

I placed ZERO CREDIBILITY in every single one of Zimmerman's statements.

You 'n me both.
Something just wasn't right with GZ's many different recounts of events...didn't make sense, no matter which version one chose to believe.

[randyt]

It's interesting how people will have differing perspective on things.

[Rick]

The lesson here is don't try following someone through peoples' yards at night. And don't confront someone that is following you through peoples' yards at night. If you choose to ignore that advice then a). have you life insurance paid up or b) hide the body.

[Ken]

This is a transcript of Zimmerman's 911 call to the Sanford Police Department on February 26, 2012.

Dispatcher
Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman
Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher
OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman
He looks black.

Dispatcher
Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman
Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher
OK, he's just walking around the area…

Zimmerman
looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher
OK…

Zimmerman
Now he's just staring at me.

Dispatcher
OK-you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?

Zimmerman
That's the clubhouse…

Dispatcher
That's the clubhouse, do you know what the-he's near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman
Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Dispatcher
OK.

Zimmerman
He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher
How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman
He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher
Late teens. Ok.

Zimmerman
Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, (COMMENT: IT WAS A BAG OF SKITTLES CANDY) I don't know what his deal is.

Dispatcher
Just let me know if he does anything, ok?

Zimmerman
(unclear) See if you can get an officer over here.

Dispatcher
Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman
Okay. These (expletive) they always get away. (COMMENT: Zimmerman, the vigilante, wasn't about to let THIS ONE get away.) Yep. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher
So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?

Zimmerman
No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left, uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. (expletive) he's running.

Dispatcher
He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman
Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. (COMMENT: Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman)

Dispatcher
Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

Zimmerman
The back entrance…(expletive)(unclear)

Dispatcher
Are you following him?

Zimmerman
Yeah. (Comment: Martin, obviously afraid and looking to AVOID a confrontation, was running away. Zimmerman, the vigilante, continued to stalk him nonetheless.)

Dispatcher
Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman
Ok.

Dispatcher
Alright sir what is your name?

Zimmerman
George…He ran.

Dispatcher
Alright George what's your last name?
A clicking or knocking sound can be heard here (COMMENT: Was Zimmerman chambering a round or cocking his gun?)

Zimmerman
Zimmerman

Dispatcher
And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
Clicking or knocking sound is heard again

Zimmerman
[phone number removed]

Dispatcher
Alright George we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman
Yeah.

Dispatcher
Alright, where you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman
Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that's my truck...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher
What address are you parked in front of?

Zimmerman
I don't know, it's a cut through so I don't know the address.

Dispatcher
Okay do you live in the area?

Zimmerman
Yeah, I...[unintelligible]

Dispatcher
What's your apartment number?

Zimmerman
It's a home it's [house number removed], (knocking sound) oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is.

Dispatcher
Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?

Zimmerman
Yeah that's fine.

Dispatcher
Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you around there, okay?

Zimmerman
Actually could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at? (COMMENT: I suspect that meant that Zimmerman was going to look for Martin again. Clearly, he wasn't heading back to his truck, as claimed in trial, because he would have asked that officers meet him AT HIS TRUCK and not that they call him to find out where he was when they arrived)

Dispatcher
Okay, yeah that's no problem.

Zimmerman
Should I give you my number or you got it?

Dispatcher
Yeah I got it [phone number removed]

Zimmerman
Yeah you got it.

Dispatcher
Okay no problem, I'll let them know to call you when you're in the area.

Zimmerman
Thanks.

Dispatcher
You're welcome.

Above was a transcription of Zimmerman’s call to 911 moments before he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. It was transcribed to the best of the transcriber’s abilities, and is not meant to replace any official transcript of the call.

COMMENT: These are the only facts we know to be accurate. EVERYTHING beyond this point was Zimmerman's version of events.

[BENESSE]

Some of GZ's recount of events (inconsistencies) described. (may 3 article)
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-circled-car-frightened-him-details

[randyt]

So trayvon ran away from zimmerman and zimmerman pursued him while talking to 911 dispatch. Was able to carry on a conversation with 911 and outrun trayvon.

[LowKey]

He was driving a truck.

[Ken]

So trayvon ran away from zimmerman and zimmerman pursued him while talking to 911 dispatch. Was able to carry on a conversation with 911 and outrun trayvon.

We'll never know. Don't forget, Martin was VISITING at a home there and wasn't nearly as familiar with the area as Zimmerman was. Martin clearly ran away the first time, may well have become disoriented, and after he believed he had shaken the stalker off his trail probably (and reasonably) reversed his course of travel to get back to where he was staying. Sadly, for Martin, Zimmerman had NOT returned to his truck and was still out there stalking and looking for Martin.

[randyt]

I thought it said the truck was parked and he was heading back to it.

[Ken]

I thought it said the truck was parked and he was heading back to it.

If he was heading back to his truck, he would have asked for the police to meet him there. He WOULD NOT have asked that the police call him to see where he was when they arrived.

Remember his statements: "These (expletive) they always get away." Vigilante watch-captain Zimmerman was determined to NOT let that happen again.

[randyt]

was trayvon deaf? zimmerman is on the phone with 911 and moments later he shot trayvon. Did trayvon not hear him talking to 911? was trayvon shot in the back? If zimmerman was pursuing trayvon he is behind him, all the while talking to 911, how did he get in front of trayvon? How long is a moment? The timing seems all weird to me.

[Winter]

People should mind their own business. .

The way I look at it is; " "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

My community, my town, my city, and my country are my business.

[randyt]

After reading the 911 transcripts, I am convinced more than ever that zimmerman acted in self defense. I was under the impression that zimmerman ended his phone conversation with 911 and then there was a span of time that was unaccounted for. A span of time that equated to more than a few moments.

[Ken]

RANDYT: was trayvon deaf? zimmerman is on the phone with 911 and moments later he shot trayvon. Did trayvon not hear him talking to 911?

KEN: How in the world would Martin know - IN THE PITCH DARK - that Zimmerman was using his cellphone and who he was talking to? The kid ran away from Zimmerman BEFORE Zimmerman ended the call. It's fair to say (read the transcript above) that when Martin and Zimmerman first looked at each other - at a distance apart in the darkness - Martin got scared and ran. What was the kid supposed to do, run to Miami? Of course he turned back after a few minutes. It was raining and he wanted to get back to his Dad's girlfriend's house. Minutes passed before the end of Zimmerman's call and the time he killed Martin. Zimmerman was still looking for the kid. He was NOT returning to his truck. He wanted to make sure he could lead the police directly to Martin.

RANDYT: was trayvon shot in the back? If zimmerman was pursuing trayvon he is behind him, all the while talking to 911, how did he get in front of trayvon?

KEN: He got in front of Martin because he again intercepted the kid on his way home. Zimmerman himself stated that Martin tried to grab the gun. If that's true, wouldn't that suggest to you that Martin was in fear for his life once he learned that his stalker, who once again intercepted him on his way home, was ARMED?

RANDYT: How long is a moment? The timing seems all weird to me.

KEN: What seems weird to me is that anyone can possibly believe, from the facts WE KNOW TO BE TRUE, that Zimmerman's own actions weren't the sole and proximate cause of Martin's death.

[Ken]

I was under the impression that zimmerman ended his phone conversation with 911 and then there was a span of time that was unaccounted for. A span of time that equated to more than a few moments.

Your original impression was correct. The kid had ran away, remember?

[Ken]

The way I look at it is; " "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

My community, my town, my city, and my country are my business.

I absolutely agree. However, there's a catch to that. You have to be able to discern the difference between evil and a kid walking home with a bag of Skittles.

[randyt]

"Above was a transcription of Zimmerman’s call to 911 moments before he shot and killed Trayvon Martin." Right he was on the phone, ended the call and moments later he shot trayvon. Trayvon ran away and then had second thought and came back to attack zimmerman. If he would have been disorientated he would have heard zimmerman talking on the phone and changed course.

[Ken]

There's a REASON why police officers are tested and given written, medical, physical agility, and psychological exams and interviewed BEFORE they are hired.

There's a REASON why police officer hires are required to successfully complete 26 weeks of Academy training BEFORE they get to wear the uniform and badge.

There's a REASON why new officers have a probationary period and are required to ride with a training officer for weeks before they're allowed to go on patrol alone.

And THOSE REASONS are to keep dangerous fools like George Zimmerman from killing innocent people.

[randyt]

That may be but trayvon came back to kick zimmermans azz so he could brag about and it didn't work out that way.

[Ken]

"Above was a transcription of Zimmerman’s call to 911 moments before he shot and killed Trayvon Martin." Right he was on the phone, ended the call and moments later he shot trayvon. Trayvon ran away and then had second thought and came back to attack zimmerman. If he would have been disorientated he would have heard zimmerman talking on the phone and changed course.

What are "moments?" Minutes? The word "moments" is the transcriber own word - the word is not part of the transcription itself, and should carry absolutely no evidentiary weight.

Zimmerman could have travelled a good distance stalking Martin in just 2 or 3 minutes. What is KNOWN is that Martin had disappeared as he was running away in the opposite direction.

What does Martin's possible disorientation have to do with what he could hear, if he actually could hear Zimmerman talking with the sound of rain falling?

The only EVIDENCE we have is that Zimmerman was stalking Martin and that Martin ran away from Zimmerman. Other than for Zimmerman's own self-serving statements, what in God's name can we point to that suggests that those roles were suddenly reversed?

We KNOW - from Zimmerman's own words - that he had no intention of returning to his truck, because he wanted the police to call him and find out where he was when they arrived. The most logical conclusion is that Zimmerman was pursuing Martin and once again intercepted and confronted Martin and not vice versa.

[Ken]

That may be but trayvon came back to kick zimmermans azz so he could brag about and it didn't work out that way.

Name one piece of evidence - just one - that supports your conclusion.

[BENESSE]

KEN: What seems weird to me is that anyone can possibly believe, from the facts WE KNOW TO BE TRUE, that Zimmerman's own actions weren't the sole and proximate cause of Martin's death.

That actually blows my mind and concerns me for different reasons.
If, we, here (more or less, of like mind and similar values) disagree based on facts, then one can easily understand the divisions that are happening across the country on all sorts of issues, some not as clear cut. Don't know the answer, don't really think there is one. That's what troubles me.

[randyt]

The world will never know. Like I said in a previous post it is interesting about peoples differing perspectives. All I can do is read the transcript and other things and come up with a conclusion. If I'm wrong God will sort it out.

[randyt]

The fact that he was running away from zimmerman and then was back. A 17 year old youth in decent shape could have put more space between himself and zimmerman if he had wanted to.

[Seniorman]

If anyone here does not think the Zimmerman trial was not a political show trial, orchestrated by the White House and U.S. Justice Dept., just consider what Pres. Barak Hussein Obama said today about the result of the "Not Guilty" verdict.

BHO - "... We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin. "

Otherwords, that cute little innocent child, Trayvon Martin, was just walking along, eating his Skittles and was murdered by a white Hispanic gun nut who was just out to kill someone and if we just had a few common sense, simple gun control laws, such as "No one should be allowed to carry a gun and protect him or herself from vicious attackers. Poor little Trayvon would still be alive and enjoying his Skittles if we just had that common sense Federal law."

I say again, for those here who claim that Zimmerman was Guilty of murder, you did not watch the trial, and you got all your disinformation and misinformation regarding the evidence presented from the Obamamedia. Don't forget NBC and CNN actually edited the 9-1-1 call made by Zimmerman, lying to make it appear he was a racist. Z. is suing them for that and I hope he collects a billion $$$$.

That is the message today, and was part of the original intent behind the push by the White House for a Special Prosecutor to try the white Hispanic racist, G. Zimmerman.

Of course, the controversy will continue .

S.M.

[Ken]

Most of us here are strong on self defense.

We believe in the "castle doctrine."

We believe in "standing our ground."

We believe in defending our families and our neighbors and our homes and ourselves from criminals.

I have great respect for most of you here. Nonetheless, I honestly believe that your support of "stand your ground" has blinded you to the fact that it was Martin and not Zimmerman who was exercising his right to self defense.

[Batch]

One thing I've learned in my almost 30 years of criminal trial practice, having represented dozens of defendants in murder, homicide, attempted murder, armed robbery, rape, and life-felony trials, is that people lie, and some lie more convincingly than others.

In thirty years of criminal trial practice, how many guilty "murder, homicide, attempted murder, armed robbery, rape, and life-felony" people have you gotten off, out of jail and back on the streets?

If you were Mr. Zimmerman's defense attorney, how would you feel about the way charges were brought against him.

If you were the special prosecutor would you have gone for murder two or manslaughter. I personally think that they only charged with the second degree murder because they wanted to plea the case out. Though they should have known that wasn't happening.

As you know it is very common to trump up charges on people to get them to plea out to a lesser charge. Tell George he is facing murder 2 and life in prison. You will most likely never get out of prison alive. But, if you take the deal max is fifteen and we'll recommend half that. You will still be a young man when you get out.

What percentage of cases are plead out in this country every year? 90%!!!! They charge you with a crime that they know they don't have a good chance of conviction so they can bargain better.


You walk into a liquor store and start stuffing bottles into your pockets. The owner confronts you and grabs you. A struggle ensues, the owner is getting the best of you, and you're probably going to be seriously injured. Does that give you the right to pull out a gun and shoot and kill the owner in self defense?

In Florida at least, if you shot the store owner you would be charged armed robbery and murder. Also, if you had an accomplice and the owner shot the accomplice you would be charged with your accomplices murder.

But, there is no proof that was shown in court that the jury believed proved any of your theories beyond a reasonable doubt.

You obviously have more involved here emotionally than most do based on the repeated "loser" wannabe cop" "vigilante" statements.

Again, I think it is a horrible tragedy that Trayvon is dead. I have no doubt that if Mr. Zimmerman had not gotten out of his truck that night that Trayvon would not have been shot that night. But, I haven't been shown where Zimmerman committed any crime before the altercation. So all we have the account of the surviving combatant. His account was that of self defense.

He has been tried and been judged by the system. He has been found not guilty... You can change the laws. But, not the verdict.

[Ken]

SENIORMAN: If anyone here does not think the Zimmerman trial was not a political show trial, orchestrated by the White House and U.S. Justice Dept., just consider what Pres. Barak Hussein Obama said today about the result of the "Not Guilty" verdict.

BHO - "... We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin. "

KEN: Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with 2nd Degree Murder on Day 1.

So far as Obama's comments go, I place more value in a pile of dog sh!t than I do in anything that comes out of that man's mouth.

SENIORMAN: Otherwords, that cute little innocent child, Trayvon Martin, was just walking along, eating his Skittles and was murdered by a white Hispanic gun nut who was just out to kill someone and if we just had a few common sense, simple gun control laws, such as "No one should be allowed to carry a gun and protect him or herself from vicious attackers. Poor little Trayvon would still be alive and enjoying his Skittles if we just had that common sense Federal law."

KEN: There's nothing wrong with that law. What is wrong is that Zimmerman BROKE the law and killed an innocent kid in the process, and then lied and twisted the facts to seek protection under a law that was never intended to give protection to an aggressor.

SENIORMAN: I say again, for those here who claim that Zimmerman was Guilty of murder, you did not watch the trial, and you got all your disinformation and misinformation regarding the evidence presented from the Obamamedia. Don't forget NBC and CNN actually edited the 9-1-1 call made by Zimmerman, lying to make it appear he was a racist. Z. is suing them for that and I hope he collects a billion $$$$.

KEN: The transcript, above, was based on the unedited call.

SENIORMAN: That is the message today, and was part of the original intent behind the push by the White House for a Special Prosecutor to try the white Hispanic racist, G. Zimmerman.

KEN: Obama's remarks should have nothing to do with this case. I've never valued any of his remarks in the past, and I'll continue to do so in the future.

SENIORMAN: Of course, the controversy will continue .

KEN: It probably will. In Federal Court.

[Batch]

I have great respect for most of you here. Nonetheless, I honestly believe that your support of "stand your ground" has blinded you to the fact that it was Martin and not Zimmerman who was exercising his right to self defense.

I can almost agree with that statement. If you could be sure that Trayvon didn't come at Zimmerman. We can't though, because only one person survived the conflict.

If your contentions fit the facts Ken, George Zimmerman would have been found guilty. If it were that cut and dry the most incompetent prosecutor would have one the case. The fact is they didn't though.

We learn once again life ain't fair. We cannot fix the past. But, we can learn from and avoid those mistakes in the future.

[BENESSE]

We cannot fix the past. But, we can learn from and avoid those mistakes in the future.

We'll never learn, because we'll never agree on what the mistakes were, if any.
That's why history repeats itself.

BTW...what have we learned from this case and what mistakes should we avoid in the future?

[canid]

That's why I am usually happy to agree on what all our mistakes were for us. It just... just that people won't listen.

*sniff* *sniff*

[Ken]

BATCH: In thirty years of criminal trial practice, how many guilty "murder, homicide, attempted murder, armed robbery, rape, and life-felony" people have you gotten off, out of jail and back on the streets?

KEN: THOSE I NOW KNOW FOR A FACT WERE GUILTY? These numbers DO NOT include those who I believe were innocent.
Murders: The GUILTY ONES - 2 wins out of 2 cases
Homicide: The GUILTY ONES - 1 win out of 1 case
Attempted Murder: The GUILTY ONES - 7 wins out of 9 cases.
Armed Robbery: The GUILTY ONES - about 17 wins in about 20 cases.
Rape (I've tried about 50 cases and have lost 6): The GUILTY ONES - 2 wins out of 5 cases

BATCH: If you were Mr. Zimmerman's defense attorney, how would you feel about the way charges were brought against him.

KEN: Most of my clients are arrested and charged immediately. I can't believe that Zimmerman wasn't as well.

BATCH: If you were the special prosecutor would you have gone for murder two or manslaughter. I personally think that they only charged with the second degree murder because they wanted to plea the case out. Though they should have known that wasn't happening.

KEN: I believe that Murder 2 was the appropriate charge.

BATCH: As you know it is very common to trump up charges on people to get them to plea out to a lesser charge. Tell George he is facing murder 2 and life in prison. You will most likely never get out of prison alive. But, if you take the deal max is fifteen and we'll recommend half that. You will still be a young man when you get out.

KEN: The prosecution usually does "over charge" in criminal matters. I don't feel that was the case here. Let's face it - the prosecution did a sh!tty job in the trial.

BATCH: What percentage of cases are plead out in this country every year? 90%!!!! They charge you with a crime that they know they don't have a good chance of conviction so they can bargain better.

KEN: That's absolutely correct. No disagreement here.

BATCH: In Florida at least, if you shot the store owner you would be charged armed robbery and murder. Also, if you had an accomplice and the owner shot the accomplice you would be charged with your accomplices murder.

KEN: As it should be. The first aggressor should be held responsible, even if he comes out on the losing end of the battle, as it seems was happening to Zimmerman until he shot the kid.

BATCH: But, there is no proof that was shown in court that the jury believed proved any of your theories beyond a reasonable doubt.

KEN: In the few hours of trial that I watched, I couldn't believe that the defense was allowed to introduce much of the "evidence" that was allowed. The prosecutors failed to object at every turn. They may as well have stayed home in bed.

BATCH: You obviously have more involved here emotionally than most do based on the repeated "loser" wannabe cop" "vigilante" statements.

KEN: Not at all. I call them as I see them BASED ON THE EVIDENCE.

BATCH: Again, I think it is a horrible tragedy that Trayvon is dead. I have no doubt that if Mr. Zimmerman had not gotten out of his truck that night that Trayvon would not have been shot that night. But, I haven't been shown where Zimmerman committed any crime before the altercation. So all we have the account of the surviving combatant. His account was that of self defense.

KEN: The first crime that we know Zimmerman committed was Second Degree Murder. Up until that point, the only thing we know for certain he did was to stalk and place a 17 year old kid in fear.

BATCH: He has been tried and been judged by the system. He has been found not guilty... You can change the laws. But, not the verdict.

KEN: Agreed again. Still, the prosecutors should hang their heads in shame due to their horrible trial skills. The laws won't change, nor should they. The verdict won't change either. Not at the state level, anyway. Just don't be surprised if this case is tried again in Federal Court.

[Ken]

The fact that he was running away from zimmerman and then was back. A 17 year old youth in decent shape could have put more space between himself and zimmerman if he had wanted to.

Martin was returning home. He wasn't stalking Zimmerman, Zimmerman, who failed to head back to his truck, was stalking Martin.

You wrote, "A 17 year old youth in decent shape could have put more space between himself and zimmerman if he had wanted to." How can you possibly suggest that Martin should have kept running away and yet, in the same breath, justify Zimmerman's actions based upon the "stand your ground" law?

[canid]

It take a marked penchant for mental gymnastics, but I think I may have almost pulled it of just now.

[randyt]

Martin was returning home. He wasn't stalking Zimmerman, Zimmerman, who failed to head back to his truck, was stalking Martin.

You wrote, "A 17 year old youth in decent shape could have put more space between himself and zimmerman if he had wanted to." How can you possibly suggest that Martin should have kept running away and yet, in the same breath, justify Zimmerman's actions based upon the "stand your ground" law?

You said trayvon was afraid, not I. The 911 transcripts indicated trayvon was running away from zimmerman. He came back to beat zimmerman.

[randyt]

Your original impression was correct. The kid had ran away, remember?

I didn't multi quote but here is one post about it.

[Ken]

You said trayvon was afraid, not I. The 911 transcripts indicated trayvon was running away from zimmerman. He came back to beat zimmerman.

How can you possibly reach THAT conclusion? Again, point to just ONE piece of evidence that supports that statement.

The evidence, the VALID CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, suggests that Martin was again heading home when Zimmerman, instead of returning to his truck, AGAIN confronted Martin.

Your theories have no basis whatsoever in fact. All you're doing is regurgitating Zimmerman's version of the events.

[randyt]

here's another from your dispatch post

"Dispatcher
He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman
Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. (COMMENT: Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman)"

[Rick]

Just curious, Canid. Were you pommeling a dead horse or just drinking at some horizontal bar?

[Ken]

I didn't multi quote but here is one post about it.

That statement came from ZIMMERMAN himself when he told the dispatcher that Martin was running away.

[randyt]

How can you possibly reach THAT conclusion? Again, point to just ONE piece of evidence that supports that statement.

The evidence, the VALID CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence, suggests that Martin was again heading home when Zimmerman, instead of returning to his truck, AGAIN confronted Martin.

Your theories have no basis whatsoever in fact. All you're doing is regurgitating Zimmerman's version of the events.


How did he end up back where zimmerman was. Zimmerman was on the phone he was not sprinting after trayvon.

[randyt]

what are your facts. You call a neighborhood watch person on the phone with 911 a stalker.

[Ken]

here's another from your dispatch post

"Dispatcher
He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman
Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. (COMMENT: Martin was running AWAY from Zimmerman)"

Based upon the totality of evidence and Zimmerman's own statement, that's the only logical conclusion that can be reached. Otherwise, Zimmerman would have said, "He's running this way."

[Ken]

How did he end up back where zimmerman was. Zimmerman was on the phone he was not sprinting after trayvon.

No. Zimmerman once again intercepted the kid on his way home. Remember, Zimmerman DID NOT return to his truck.

[welderguy]

Hey ken your pretty good at this, you should be a lawyer!:innocent:

[randyt]

couple more from the transcripts

Zimmerman
It's a home it's [house number removed], (knocking sound) oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is.


COMMENT: These are the only facts we know to be accurate. EVERYTHING beyond this point was Zimmerman's version of events.

[Ken]

what are your facts. You call a neighborhood watch person on the phone with 911 a stalker.

If you can't understand that the guy, a police applicant reject, police officer wannabe', who appointed himself a "neighborhood watch captain" (whatever the hell that is) was stalking the kid - especially after the dispatcher told him to stop - then I give up.

The ONLY person who identified Zimmerman as a "watch captain" was Zimmerman himself. If he claimed to be Batman, would you believe that, too? The guy was a vigilante - a misguided pathetic incompetent wanna' be cop vigilante, and his decision to act out his fantasies caused a kid who wasn't doing a damn thing wrong to lose his life.

[nell67]

Based upon the totality of evidence and Zimmerman's own statement, that's the only logical conclusion that can be reached. Otherwise, Zimmerman would have said, "He's running this way." I agree with Ken,G.Z. could SEE T.M. running AWAY,a stated that fact to dispatch,he ALWAYS knew where T.M. was,you KNOW he never let him get out of his sight,it would have been irresponsible of him as a neighborhood watchman to let him out of his sight for a few seconds,let alone long enough for T.M. to double back and SNEAK up on him,as he surely would have had to do for events to go down as G.Z. CLAIMS.

[Beo]

Personally, for me trials over who really cares. He was found not guilty and cannot be tried for it again. Well he can be sued by the family in civil court, I'm sure they will just to try and make a few quick free bucks. Martin was no poster kid and they only show old pics of him looking like a great kid, but he didn't need to die either. Zimmerman is a goofball cop wannabe who can't hack, just an unfortunate incident all the way around.
Just my humble opinion.

[randyt]

OK then......

[Ken]

couple more from the transcripts

Zimmerman
It's a home it's [house number removed], (knocking sound) oh crap I don't want to give it all out, I don't know where this kid is.

Zimmerman was referring to Zimmerman's own address. He didn't know where Martin was. So, did he return to his truck? NO. He went out looking for Martin again, which is why he told the police to call him when they arrived so he could tell them where he was. And that, my friend, is the definition of a stalker.

[canid]

Just curious, Canid. Were you pommeling a dead horse or just drinking at some horizontal bar?

First the one and then the other. In either case, I forget which dismount I stuck and which one I mangled.

[Ken]

He was found not guilty and cannot be tried for it again.

Oh yes he can! In FEDERAL COURT.

[welderguy]

I did a little more research, here is my take on the situation. Zimmerman, went well beyond a citizens scope of crime intervention, even at some security officer levels its strictly observe and report, never confront. Being a neighbor watch anything he would of knew that, if the kid in fact try to flee as was stated by Zimmerman, and he continued to pursue the kid and even went so far as to leave the safety of his vehicle, Zimmerman did in fact cause an escalation of the situation.

In a situation that you feel threatened by a fight or flight response takes over the kid obviously chose flight, but Zimmerman didn't accept that so i see a justification for fight mode. I think the situation was escalated by Zimmerman, I think he thought he would intimidate the kid and the kid decided o kick his *** instead. I do not feel Zimmerman had just cause to use deadly force, unless the kid came at him like bruce lee, or had a weapon. Zimmerman should of tried to retreat prior to using deadly force. Then again had he not left his vehicle and just reported what he saw and let PD deal with it we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Ken]

Zimmerman is doing an interview with Hannity at this very moment. His lawyer is sitting by his side. IDIOTS! What great evidence for a federal prosecution.

[welderguy]

Zimmerman is doing an interview with Hannity at this very moment. His lawyer is sitting by his side. IDIOTS! What great evidence for a federal prosecution.

Seems some people are just too stupid to know when to shut up and fade into the cracks. I hope he does face federal prosecution!!!!

[welderguy]

What strikes me as odd is, if the Kid was in fact a gang member or such a low life , why hasn't his Gang or other associates put a bullet in Zimmerman prior to or right after the trial!!!

[Ken]

What strikes me as odd is, if the Kid was in fact a gang member or such a low life , why hasn't his Gang or other associates put a bullet in Zimmerman prior to or right after the trial!!!

The "Skittles Gang" doesn't operate that way.

[welderguy]

The "Skittles Gang" doesn't operate that way.

LMAO!!! that actually could add a whole knew meaning to taste the rainbow

[rebel]

The moral of the story, don't take skittles to a gun fight.

[Sarge47]

Ken as a prosecuting attorney, who'd a thunk it?

Seriously, if Ken is correct then the prosecution dropped the ball. Although the police chief losing his job over his refusal to arrest Zimmerman and the judge's questionable acts have me scratching my head, I must admit.....:creepy:

[Sarge47]

Wasn't the burden of proof on the prosecution?...:confused:

[Ken]

Wasn't the burden of proof on the prosecution?...:confused:

Yes, it was. And they blew it big-time. Seriously, the mere fact that they allowed the defense to ask so many inadmissible questions without making an objection helped seal their fate. One defense expert testified to several matters far beyond the scope of his expertise. As I said earlier, the prosecutors should have stayed home in bed.

[Seniorman]

As I said before, I watched about 90% of the trial, missing perhaps two hours first day and two hours the second day. What I've said and say come from my viewing the trial for that amount of time.

Ken, you keep referring to the case as a "Stand Your Ground" case (or I believe the correct legal term is "No Duty To Retreat"). No matter the phrasing, it was not a SYG case and neither the prosecution nor the defense pursued it in that manner. Of course it was not a Castle Doctrine case in any way, shape or form as that applies to a person's home or domicile, business, or sometimes when the defendant is in his vehicle.

It was a case of self defense and whether or not it was justified under Florida's self defense law. Of course you know the law on self defense better than I but it still goes to the Reasonable Man test. Would a reasonable man in a place where he is legally allowed to be, under the same circumstances, reasonably believe he was in danger of great bodily harm or possible death? If so, under the circumstances, the use of deadly force would be justified. The jury found that in the Zimmerman incident, Z. was in a place where he was legally allowed to be, and after Martin sucker punched him, knocked him down and straddled him, knocking his head against concrete, had reasonable cause to believe he was in danger of great bodily harm or death.

I assure you if someone had sucker punched me, knocked me to the ground and then straddled me, knocking my head against the concrete, I'd certainly be in fear for my life or great bodily injury. Apparently, some here do not think they would be in danger under those same circumstances. Different strokes for different folks, of course.

As for the doctored or edited 9-1-1 tape created by NBC, this was done deliberately to make it appear that the "white man" made a racist remark about Martin. Zimmerman in fact did not and that is why he is going to sue NBC and I believe, CNN. The 9-1-1 operator asked for a description and Z. said he thought the person (Martin) was black. That was not a racist remark but NBC's altered remark made it appear to be so. It was picked up by the masses and became immediate Gospel. "The white Hispanic was an evil kill crazy racist!!"

When the lead detective, Serino, SFD, interrogated and challenged Z., he told him there was likely a video of the incident, hoping to scare Z. into changing his story. Instead, Z. said he certainly hoped there was a video as that would prove what he said. There was not, but cops lie to suspects all the time trying to get them tripped up in their stories.

Do you believe Z. would have said that he hoped there was a video of the incident if he were making up lies as he went along?

Another thing that has been distorted is when Zimmerman asked a neighbor to call his wife. He said to tell her he had shot someone. Later he told the police officer he did not know Martin was dead. But the prosecutor turned it around to say that Zimmerman lied because he said to call his wife and tell her he had just killed someone. No he did not, according to the police officer's sworn testimony. See how that changes the scenario?

Speaking of "scenarios," there has been a lot of speculation, including from the prosecutor, that as soon as Zimmerman shot Martin, he began crafting this wild, fictional scenario of lies to justify shooting Martin... and he completed the elaborate scenario with great finesse within a few minutes before the police officer arrived, took his firearm and placed him in custody.

What utter nonsense.

I've been writing "cops-'n-robbers" fictional scenarios or screenplays for many, many years. A lot of them. I'm pretty good at it, or so a bunch of producers in Hollywood seemed to have thought so as they hired me many times to do it for various cops-'n-robbers teevee shows.

I guarandamntee you that were I in an actual shooting situation where I'd shot a person "kinda for the helluvit," I could never create a fictional scenario in the short time Zimmerman had, to cover up my malfeasance. It is impossible. It used to take me about two weeks to write a script for a one hour crime show with a murder, etc., and work out all the details, fill in the holes, and make it believable... or as believable as it gets on teevee or in the flicks. Usually another week would be required to do a final rewrite. In a real shooting situation I could never make up a scenario in the very short time Zimmerman had, and I know sure as Hell Zimmerman could not have.

From what I heard in the trial, I do not believe Zimmerman made up his story.

I could go on about a number of things said here and in the Obamamedia, about the trial but it won't change anyone's mind.

Time for me to hit the rack. I have to go to the range tomorrow and try out a rifle I want to use this coming elk season. :thumbup:

S.M.

[cowgirlup]

Okay. Is it possible that Martin was walking through yards to escape from the guy stalking him?

Even believing Zimmerman's version of events, does anyone here honestly believe that Martin would have attacked him if Zimmerman hadn't been stalking him?Zimmerman's persona, history, and motives were all in evidence. I'd bet my front teeth that Zimmerman had his hand on his weapon when the two confronted each other.

Even believing Zimmerman's version of events, if I was unarmed and minding my own business, and I realized that someone was stalking me for a good distance in the dark, and given the likelihood that (as was likely in Martin's case) that I believed that person was armed, you can be pretty damned sure that I would have acted the same way that Martin did in the hope of preventing the stalker from using his weapon on me.

Actually yes. From what I can see TM racially profiled GZ because he was watching him and wanted to teach him a lesson.
He was bigger and stronger and likely felt invincible as a lot of teenage males do. I don't think following equates stalking. And if you're a vigilante out for blood why even call the police?

If he saw a gun you'd think that would have been worth mentioning to his earwitness who was on the phone with him. Something like Sh!t! Crackers got a gun!
And while we're at it I'm thinking if the gun was out TM wouldn't have attacked him. At least that's what they say in a lot of the firearms classes.

I also don't know where you Ken, and others feel you have some kind of inside info into the minds of other people. There (so far) been no witnesses that GZ was anything like the frustrated cop wanna be that you and many others want to believe him to be. You'd think there would be someone he expressed his frustrations to so as to back that up. By all accounts he seems like a decent guy. Even tho it was not admissible in court it does not look like TM was some innocent child.

The law says innocent until proven guilty. I'd think you'd respect that. The prosecution had no case. Lord, If I ever have to shoot someone who attacks me for any reason even if I looked at them wrong or whatever I for sure wouldn't want people like you around.

[2dumb2kwit]

Something to think about.

While we sit here, playing armchair quarterback, talking about what lawyer did or did not do whatever, let's think about this. The people who first investigated this, (You know....investigators who are trained to look at the evidence, and figure out what happened.) who saw the scene as it was, talked to people who saw or heard things, before they had time to be influenced by others, or convince themselves that they saw or heard something different. They listened to the 911 tapes. They interviewed GZ multiple times, and they (including the police chief.) had no doubt that GZ was not guilty of a crime. In fact, they were sure enough to conclude that there was not even enough doubt, to arrest GZ and take it to trial.

[BENESSE]

Something to think about.

While we sit here, playing armchair quarterback, talking about what lawyer did or did not do whatever, let's think about this. The people who first investigated this, (You know....investigators who are trained to look at the evidence, and figure out what happened.) who saw the scene as it was, talked to people who saw or heard things, before they had time to be influenced by others, or convince themselves that they saw or heard something different. They listened to the 911 tapes. They interviewed GZ multiple times, and they (including the police chief.) had no doubt that GZ was not guilty of a crime. In fact, they were sure enough to conclude that there was not even enough doubt, to arrest GZ and take it to trial.

OK, I'll go with that. But then GZ started changing his story and it made less and less sense.
Be that as it may, the prosecution didn't prove their case beyond reasonable doubt, and Z walked. Just like OJ walked. Somebody, somewhere, is always gonna be unhappy.
Whatchagonna do?

[welderguy]

As I said before, I watched about 90% of the trial, missing perhaps two hours first day and two hours the second day. What I've said and say come from my viewing the trial for that amount of time.

Ken, you keep referring to the case as a "Stand Your Ground" case (or I believe the correct legal term is "No Duty To Retreat"). No matter the phrasing, it was not a SYG case and neither the prosecution nor the defense pursued it in that manner. Of course it was not a Castle Doctrine case in any way, shape or form as that applies to a person's home or domicile, business, or sometimes when the defendant is in his vehicle.

It was a case of self defense and whether or not it was justified under Florida's self defense law. Of course you know the law on self defense better than I but it still goes to the Reasonable Man test. Would a reasonable man in a place where he is legally allowed to be, under the same circumstances, reasonably believe he was in danger of great bodily harm or possible death? If so, under the circumstances, the use of deadly force would be justified. The jury found that in the Zimmerman incident, Z. was in a place where he was legally allowed to be, and after Martin sucker punched him, knocked him down and straddled him, knocking his head against concrete, had reasonable cause to believe he was in danger of great bodily harm or death.

I assure you if someone had sucker punched me, knocked me to the ground and then straddled me, knocking my head against the concrete, I'd certainly be in fear for my life or great bodily injury. Apparently, some here do not think they would be in danger under those same circumstances. Different strokes for different folks, of course.

As for the doctored or edited 9-1-1 tape created by NBC, this was done deliberately to make it appear that the "white man" made a racist remark about Martin. Zimmerman in fact did not and that is why he is going to sue NBC and I believe, CNN. The 9-1-1 operator asked for a description and Z. said he thought the person (Martin) was black. That was not a racist remark but NBC's altered remark made it appear to be so. It was picked up by the masses and became immediate Gospel. "The white Hispanic was an evil kill crazy racist!!"

When the lead detective, Serino, SFD, interrogated and challenged Z., he told him there was likely a video of the incident, hoping to scare Z. into changing his story. Instead, Z. said he certainly hoped there was a video as that would prove what he said. There was not, but cops lie to suspects all the time trying to get them tripped up in their stories.

Do you believe Z. would have said that he hoped there was a video of the incident if he were making up lies as he went along?

Another thing that has been distorted is when Zimmerman asked a neighbor to call his wife. He said to tell her he had shot someone. Later he told the police officer he did not know Martin was dead. But the prosecutor turned it around to say that Zimmerman lied because he said to call his wife and tell her he had just killed someone. No he did not, according to the police officer's sworn testimony. See how that changes the scenario?

Speaking of "scenarios," there has been a lot of speculation, including from the prosecutor, that as soon as Zimmerman shot Martin, he began crafting this wild, fictional scenario of lies to justify shooting Martin... and he completed the elaborate scenario with great finesse within a few minutes before the police officer arrived, took his firearm and placed him in custody.

What utter nonsense.

I've been writing "cops-'n-robbers" fictional scenarios or screenplays for many, many years. A lot of them. I'm pretty good at it, or so a bunch of producers in Hollywood seemed to have thought so as they hired me many times to do it for various cops-'n-robbers teevee shows.

I guarandamntee you that were I in an actual shooting situation where I'd shot a person "kinda for the helluvit," I could never create a fictional scenario in the short time Zimmerman had, to cover up my malfeasance. It is impossible. It used to take me about two weeks to write a script for a one hour crime show with a murder, etc., and work out all the details, fill in the holes, and make it believable... or as believable as it gets on teevee or in the flicks. Usually another week would be required to do a final rewrite. In a real shooting situation I could never make up a scenario in the very short time Zimmerman had, and I know sure as Hell Zimmerman could not have.

From what I heard in the trial, I do not believe Zimmerman made up his story.

I could go on about a number of things said here and in the Obamamedia, about the trial but it won't change anyone's mind.

Time for me to hit the rack. I have to go to the range tomorrow and try out a rifle I want to use this coming elk season. :thumbup:

S.M.

Had Zimmerman not left his vehicle, and had zimmerman obeyed the Dispatcher to not follow anymore there would be no threat of bodily harm. As Zimmerman said " he has something in his hand" referring to the kid, anyone with half a brain and any training will not let a person that you think is armed get close enough to you to sucker punch you .

[BENESSE]

That is the single most important point, WG...IMHO.

[letslearntogether47]

You said trayvon was afraid, not I. The 911 transcripts indicated trayvon was running away from zimmerman. He came back to beat zimmerman.

Martin was 70 ft.,that's right 70 ft. from the front door of his temporary residence.
But,decided to turn around,confront and subsiquently assault Zimmerman.Very poor decision.

[welderguy]

Actually yes. From what I can see TM racially profiled GZ because he was watching him and wanted to teach him a lesson.
He was bigger and stronger and likely felt invincible as a lot of teenage males do. I don't think following equates stalking. And if you're a vigilante out for blood why even call the police?

If he saw a gun you'd think that would have been worth mentioning to his earwitness who was on the phone with him. Something like Sh!t! Crackers got a gun!
And while we're at it I'm thinking if the gun was out TM wouldn't have attacked him. At least that's what they say in a lot of the firearms classes.

I also don't know where you Ken, and others feel you have some kind of inside info into the minds of other people. There (so far) been no witnesses that GZ was anything like the frustrated cop wanna be that you and many others want to believe him to be. You'd think there would be someone he expressed his frustrations to so as to back that up. By all accounts he seems like a decent guy. Even tho it was not admissible in court it does not look like TM was some innocent child.

The law says innocent until proven guilty. I'd think you'd respect that. The prosecution had no case. Lord, If I ever have to shoot someone who attacks me for any reason even if I looked at them wrong or whatever I for sure wouldn't want people like you around.

What was the official statement By Zimmerman about when he drew his weapon? If I am truly in fear for my life and I think someone making a threatening advance towards me and is possible armed, I am going to draw my weapon long before that person is within my personal space. I may have read wrong but my understanding is Zimmerman drew and fired after being knocked to the ground, if that is the case, why did he wait? Like I said before I think Zimmerman was looking to be the neighborhood hero and catch a bad guy, and the kid handed him his @ss and Zimmerman shot him.

[welderguy]

Martin was 70 ft.,that's right 70 ft. from the front door of his temporary residence.
But,decided to turn around,confront and subsequently assault Zimmerman.Very poor decision.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't Zimmerman between the Kid and his house? the kid after running away tried to return home and zimmerman was in his path. If I was only 70 feet from my house and thought some crazy dude was after my @ss, im calling my house because one of my roommates would have been on my 6 and most likely with a much more intimidating weapon than my 1911.

[welderguy]

Something else that I don't understand is, why did he end his call with 911, why didn't he remain online with them till LEO's arrived.

[letslearntogether47]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't Zimmerman between the Kid and his house?

That would be a new one,that I haven't heard.There is simply no way to know this.The witnesses only seen Martin beating Zimmerman's head against the ground.

[letslearntogether47]

If anything.
Perhaps even neighborhood watch people should be trained on what and what not to do.
And also wear something that shows that they are in fact there to help enforce the law.
Would people have a different feeling about this incident if Zimmerman was a armed,uniform wearing security officer?

[welderguy]

That would be a new one,that I haven't heard.There is simply no way to know this.The witnesses only seen Martin beating Zimmerman's head against the ground.

I'm amazed that Zimmerman after getting his head beat against the ground was able to draw and fire his weapon, I would think my head would be spinning and my vision blurred from the head trauma. So Zimmerman was coherent enough to Draw his weapon, remain in control of said weapon ( after having his head beat on the ground) and fire said weapon at Martin. I would think that if your coherent enough to do that your coherent enough to try and defend yourself with out the use of deadly force being the first option IMHO!

[welderguy]

If anything.
Perhaps even neighborhood watch people should be trained on what and what not to do.
And also wear something that shows that they are in fact there to help enforce the law.
Would people have a different feeling about this incident if Zimmerman was a armed,uniform wearing security officer?

They shouldn't if he acted beyond his scope of duty. In Texas all Neighborhood watch groups go to a class presented by the PD or the SO. and it is stressed to observe and report only. No weapons are to be carried even if your a CCW holder, while on watch. Each state is different of course.

[Sarge47]

My wife believes the defense, I didn't follow the trial so I'm conflicted. Despite all that, however, it seems obvious to me that if what Ken is saying is true and that the prosecution could have won this, and there's a Federal trial, then the Feds won't be making the same mistakes. This is what happened with O.J.; The attorney for the Goldman's did his homework and also paid close attention to what former Los Angeles D.A. Vincent Bugliosi(he put Manson behind bars.) had to say about the trial. Forewarned is forearmed.....:glare:

[letslearntogether47]

The"racial brokers" Jackson and Sharpton want a {civil rights} violation case brought against Zimmerman.
But,clearly,WHO is being more racial in this incident?

During the trial of Zimmerman, state's witness #8, Rachel Jeantel, testified that Martin had described Zimmerman as a "creepy *** cracker" just prior to the shooting

Zimmerman was accused of being motivated by racism and of having racially profiled Martin.During early media coverage of the incident, Zimmerman's call to the police dispatcher was misleadingly edited by NBC, shortened such that it appeared that Zimmerman had volunteered Martin's race. The unedited audio recording proved that the police dispatcher specifically asked about Martin's race, and only then did Zimmerman reveal that Martin was black. NBC apologized for the misleading edit and disciplined those involved.

Apologized????
I think NBC and ABC should be sued and criminal charges be brought against them.
Remember the doctored up Zimmerman head photo with no wounds?

[Rick]

The FBI's report and the police involved refute the NAACP's accusation that Zimmerman acted out of race. The FBI referred to him as "overzealous" and that he had a "hero complex but not as a racist".

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/15/as-justice-pursues-civil-rights-case-against-zimmerman-fbi-documents-show-no/

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/little_document_pursues_zimmerman_uAQjdqGhtH6RVcBF emuPyK?utm_source=SFnewyorkpost&utm_medium=SFnewyorkpost

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2018674328_zimmerman13.html

Those who are now rioting are not rioting as a result of the legal decision. They are rioting because they can. They are just using the verdict as a reason.

It's time the country move on. Our legal system has gone through the process and a verdict reached. You may or may not agree with it but that's how it works in this country.

[letslearntogether47]

I have this one.
You're right .Rick.
Did all these people take a Monday off work to riot/protest?



http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/12/155918/more-evidence-released-in-trayvon.html

[Rick]

You're assuming they have jobs.

[welderguy]

You're assuming they have jobs.

That is a great point!!!!

[nell67]

Actually yes. From what I can see TM racially profiled GZ because he was watching him and wanted to teach him a lesson.
He was bigger and stronger and likely felt invincible as a lot of teenage males do. I don't think following equates stalking. And if you're a vigilante out for blood why even call the police?

If he saw a gun you'd think that would have been worth mentioning to his earwitness who was on the phone with him. Something like Sh!t! Crackers got a gun!
And while we're at it I'm thinking if the gun was out TM wouldn't have attacked him. At least that's what they say in a lot of the firearms classes.

I also don't know where you Ken, and others feel you have some kind of inside info into the minds of other people. There (so far) been no witnesses that GZ was anything like the frustrated cop wanna be that you and many others want to believe him to be. You'd think there would be someone he expressed his frustrations to so as to back that up. By all accounts he seems like a decent guy. Even tho it was not admissible in court it does not look like TM was some innocent child.

The law says innocent until proven guilty. I'd think you'd respect that. The prosecution had no case. Lord, If I ever have to shoot someone who attacks me for any reason even if I looked at them wrong or whatever I for sure wouldn't want people like you around.

Actually,following DOES equate stalking,after all we on this forum who hunt stalk prey...by following it. Predators ,animal OR human,stalk their prey by FOLLOWING it. following has been called stalking for eons,wolves,mountain ions etc. stalk, or follow their prey. George Zimmerman stalked Treyvon Martin by his own admission to the 911 dispatcher,he was in fact following him.

[welderguy]

here is the Texas version of stalking defined by the state.

§ 42.072. STALKING. (a) A person commits an offense if
the person, on more than one occasion and pursuant to the same
scheme or course of conduct that is directed specifically at
another person, knowingly engages in conduct, including following
the other person, that:
(1) the actor knows or reasonably believes the other
person will regard as threatening:
(A) bodily injury or death for the other person;
(B) bodily injury or death for a member of the
other person's family or household; or
(C) that an offense will be committed against the
other person's property;
(2) causes the other person or a member of the other
person's family or household to be placed in fear of bodily injury
or death or fear that an offense will be committed against the other
person's property; and
(3) would cause a reasonable person to fear:
(A) bodily injury or death for himself or
herself;
(B) bodily injury or death for a member of the
person's family or household; or
(C) that an offense will be committed against the
person's property.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree, except that the offense is a felony of the second degree if
the actor has previously been convicted under this section.
(c) In this section, "family," "household," and "member of a
household" have the meanings assigned by Chapter 71, Family Code.

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1, § 1, eff. Jan. 28, 1997.
Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 15.02(e), eff. Sept.
1, 1999; Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1222, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.

I don't think Zimmerman falls under this criteria, I do think he caused the whole problem to escalate tho.

I looked up Florida definition of stalking, It also says repeated following , So no Zimmerman wasn't stalking Him. because this was the first contact and first time he followed the kid.

[letslearntogether47]

Another twist to this story to consider.

One of the recipes for “lean” calls for using Arizona Iced Tea Co.watermelon fruit juice cocktail as the beverage of choice, and Skittles candy… the items found on Trayvon Martin’s body the night he was shot by George Zimmerman.

The Conservative Treehouse has a lengthy post about the recreational drug, it’s effects and side effects, and alleged screen captures of Trayvon Martin’s social media sites discussing his fondness for the concoction."

[cowgirlup]

Actually,following DOES equate stalking,after all we on this forum who hunt stalk prey...by following it. Predators ,animal OR human,stalk their prey by FOLLOWING it. following has been called stalking for eons,wolves,mountain ions etc. stalk, or follow their prey. George Zimmerman stalked Treyvon Martin by his own admission to the 911 dispatcher,he was in fact following him.

Stalking implies that there is prey that you are hunting for a specific purpose. Generally you are also keeping yourself hidden so the prey is not aware of you. Following and observing someone is not a crime. Otherwise celebrities would be allowed to attack the papparazzi. The police would not be able to follow anyone legally. There is a different connotation associated with each term.

[Rick]

Stalking has a number of definitions beyond our lexicon for hunting. There is also a legal definition in many jurisdictions that's used as a criminal offense (correct me if I'm wrong here, Ken). It may not even involve following but rather can be electronic monitoring, which can be a form of stalking.

By the way, attacking papparazzi is perfectly legal in my book.

[letslearntogether47]

Yes electronic stalking is also covered in Ma, state laws.
We had a young girl from Ireland commit suicide a few years back from constant bullying online and off.

Section 43

"The conduct, acts or threats described in this subsection shall include, but not be limited to, conduct, acts or threats conducted by mail or by use of a telephonic or telecommunication device or electronic communication device including, but not limited to, any device that transfers signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data, or intelligence of any nature transmitted in whole or in part by a wire, radio, electromagnetic, photo-electronic or photo-optical system, including, but not limited to, electronic mail, internet communications, instant messages or facsimile communications."


https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIII/TitleI/Chapter265/Section43

[Sarge47]

Who would have ever thought we'd be retrying Zimmerman here on WSF? Not me!....:mellow:

[welderguy]

Who would have ever thought we'd be retrying Zimmerman here on WSF? Not me!....:mellow:

He dont stand a chance in heck does he!!!!!

[randyt]

If I remember right there was a recorded scream on the 911 call recording. This leads me to believe that zimmerman didn't end the call yet.

[crashdive123]

There were other calls to 911 from people that did not have a clear view of what was happening.

[randyt]

That must have been a loud encounter. I'm presuming people called from their homes, don't know for sure.

[cowgirlup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRB0oGcJ5E&feature=player_embedded Huckabees comments are some of the best most balanced things I have seen on this whole mess.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daRB0oGcJ5E&feature=player_embedded

[Ken]

.
.
*snort......chuckle* :innocent:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1011962_10151594817443387_314816183_n.jpg

[JPGreco]

Ken, the only thing I would say to your replies, which I agree with for the vast majority, is one the assumption GZ continued to look for TM. Now granted telling the police to call him is very suspicious, the only thing that can be ascertained 100% from that request is that GZ did not agree to meet the police at a specific location. I would not be able to prove that GZ continued to look for TM, but that it would cast serious suspicion over any statements of GZ's actions during that time period. I would have questioned him constantly about that point though in hopes of him saying something stupid.

[welderguy]

A question i would have for GZ is why hang up from 911 at all, why not remain talking to them till PD showed up.

[JPGreco]

Welder, that would have been part of the can you account for the time between hanging up and when police arrived. I would have asked various questions on that until I was told to stop by the judge in hopes of him saying something incriminating.

Was TM actually killed on the property or near the property of his father's girlfriends house? Also, was the initial encounter close to that location, more importantly on the same street? Would driving to the club house, where GZ originally told the police to meet him, take GZ past that property for a "chance" second encounter? I would be very interested in how GZ and TM came across each other the second time compared to where 911 call originated from, which we have an approximate address. With that information I could present a plausible timeline of events.

[welderguy]

Welder, that would have been part of the can you account for the time between hanging up and when police arrived. I would have asked various questions on that until I was told to stop by the judge in hopes of him saying something incriminating.

Was TM actually killed on the property or near the property of his father's girlfriends house? Also, was the initial encounter close to that location, more importantly on the same street? Would driving to the club house, where GZ originally told the police to meet him, take GZ past that property for a "chance" second encounter? I would be very interested in how GZ and TM came across each other the second time compared to where 911 call originated from, which we have an approximate address. With that information I could present a plausible timeline of events.

Yep, that's my line of thinking too. too many gaps in time and story. someone needed to put the pieces together and they failed miserably .

[Rick]

I can fill in what he did during those gaps.

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[welderguy]

LMAO!!!!!! Very good !!!!

[Batch]

Doesn't matter how you define stalking. It matters how Florida statutes define it and nothing George Zimmerman did violates our laws that night. One of the words used repeatedly in the statute is "repeatedly".

[welderguy]

Doesn't matter how you define stalking. It matters how Florida statutes define it and nothing George Zimmerman did violates our laws that night. One of the words used repeatedly in the statute is "repeatedly".

You are correct. I posted Texas code and looked up Florida and they are very close, and following someone one time is not stalking.

[Rick]

It would be interesting to know how many other young black men have been shot since Martin was. Where is the news coverage and the outrage for those victims? Interesting.

[crashdive123]

It would be interesting to know how many other young black men have been shot since Martin was. Where is the news coverage and the outrage for those victims? Interesting.

I didn't find that number (I'm sure it's out there) but just look at Chicago alone where 78% of the homicides are blacks under 25.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/chicago-murders-top-afghanistan-death-toll/

Well over 200 this year alone.

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2013/07/200-homicides-deaths-chicago-ignored-and-forgotten

[Rick]

The the followup has to be why is this case different.

At the risk of posting something political, it does single out Obama, it provides an excellent narrative regarding Holder's concern over race and why it will either not come about or be soundly defeated in court. I thought it a good explanation of how it works.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/353523/eric-holders-cynical-threat-editors

[Rick]

Yesterday, Eric Holder addressed the NAACP and while most of his comments were utter nonsense IMO, he made a statement that absolutely confounds me. He said that Stand Your Ground laws, “senselessly expand the concept of self-defense”.

I've read his words over and over. I've read them in context over and over. I have tried to discern how on earth it's possible to do that? Self defense is self defense. Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand how a federal lawman can ride jurisdiction over state laws. Since Stand Your Ground is decided upon by the states I see nothing he should even have an opinion on. His role is to enforce the federal laws that Congress passes as the Supreme Court interprets them. Beyond that, he would do well to just keep his mouth shut since he always seems to find the worst choice of words.

I find it deplorable that we are now using race as a justification for gun control. I can't interpret his words in any other fashion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/naacp-urges-eric-holder-do-the-right-thing/2013/07/16/530425da-ee49-11e2-9008-61e94a7ea20d_story.html

[Ken]

There is one thing I will say in Zimmerman's defense: I don't believe the incident was racially motivated. I think he would have killed anyone.

[Ken]

I find it deplorable that we are now using race as a justification for gun control. I can't interpret his words in any other fashion.

I find everything Holder does deplorable. Just sayin'.

[BENESSE]

There is one thing I will say in Zimmerman's defense: I don't believe the incident was racially motivated. I think he would have killed anyone.

I tend to agree with that. However, if Z saw a white, blond, preppy guy dressed in khakis and a polo shirt, I wonder...
It's just the way it is, one can't help conditioning even tough we can intellectualize it away all we want.

[letslearntogether47]

I tend to think if Martin didn't aggressively go to confront Zimmerman and went home,the incident never would have happened.
He was going to teach that"creepy a** cracka" a lesson.

[welderguy]

I tend to agree with that. However, if Z saw a white, blond, preppy guy dressed in khakis and a polo shirt, I wonder...
It's just the way it is, one can't help conditioning even tough we can intellectualize it away all we want.

I think your right, but had the kid no matter what color, been dressed in sagging pants a hoody and a backwards facing ball cap , I think the outcome would have been that same.

[welderguy]

I tend to think if Martin didn't aggressively go to confront Zimmerman and went home,the incident never would have happened.
He was going to teach that"creepy a** cracka" a lesson.

maybe, but some people only have so much tolerance for BS, and I think by initially running away shows he was trying to avoid a conflict.

[Ken]

As I said earlier, my suspicion (and we will never know for sure) is that Zimmerman went looking for Martin after he hung up with the police, with a teeny bit more courage knowing the police were on the way. And THAT (IMHO) is why he asked for them to call him on arrival - he had no intention of returning to his car.

[Rick]

Now Holder wants folks to email him tips on Zimmerman. This is getting out of hand. I've got a tip I'd like to give Holder. The tip of my boot.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/17/doj-seeking-tips-in-zimmerman-probe/

[Ken]

Holder is a piece of $hit. He knows damned well that everyone with an agenda will jump on the tip band wagon.

[Rick]

I honestly believe this is the President's method of trying to revive gun control. There is just no other reason to be doing this. The FBI said the guy wasn't a racist so why pursue it?

[Ken]

What I think is pathetic is the fact that this (and several past) administration is using the Department of Justice for political purposes.

The citizens of this country have the right to demand a competent and impartial DOJ that enforces ALL FEDERAL LAWS without regard to political agendas.

[randyt]

Well folks the world will never know. However when you make it to the pearly gates and if it's on your mind ask St. Peter what went down that night.

[Ken]

Well folks the world will never know. However when you make it to the pearly gates and if it's on your mind ask St. Peter what went down that night.

Sorry. I've decided that I'm not going to die.

[randyt]

Who said you have to die to make it to the pearly gates?

[Ken]

Who said you have to die to make it to the pearly gates?

Right. Like the stairs wouldn't kill me. :sneaky2:


http://www.freebingo.me.uk/wp-content/uploads/stairway_to_heaven.jpg (http://www.wilderness-survival.net/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=pearly+gates+of+heaven&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=HNaolDjoLO6hRM&tbnid=aI-IDVZOuDoP9M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freebingo.me.uk%2F144%2F7thhe avenfreeroom%2F&ei=9RHnUZK-DvOt4AOA3oC4Ag&bvm=bv.49405654,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNGKvCbhDAoXhLEQ8SNk2vyZHNSqYw&ust=1374184288002985)

[Rick]

That had better be an escalator or someone is gonna get a talkin' to when I get there.

[randyt]

I can well imagine Rick you'll probably be getting the earful. Explain this to me Rick and how about that time and what was you thinking and how did that happen. LOL

[Rick]

I won't go into details. Let's just a phone call to God from my house is a local call okay?

[JPGreco]

Ken,

My bro is a lawyer and said he would have gone after zimmerman using Criminally Negligent Homicide if it were in NY (though he's not sure if Florida has a something similar to NY in that regard).

[Rick]

I was also surprised they didn't charge him with manslaughter or the Florida equivalent instead of some murder charge. Maybe the prosecutor didn't really want him found guilty (shrug).

[crashdive123]

Manslaughter was on the table (lesser included offense). He was found not guilty.

[JPGreco]

NY has manslaughter as well, in fact, we have Class 1 and 2 in a lot of felonies. In NY, manslaughter seems to hinge on intent to cause harm/death or is a plea down from murder charges by using severe emotional distress (which I guess you could claim in a self defense situation). CNH is if you cause the death of another person via criminal negligence (which I have no idea how that is defined... lol). I can only assume the reason my bro would favor CNH is that since 911 operator told GZ not to pursue TM and GZ did not offer to meet the police at a specific point, my bro would go after GZ in some kind of criminal action of stalking or possibly being the instigator. Its actually possible that he could go after him just cause he got into a fight (which will get you arrested on any number of charges) and causing the death of someone.

Does florida have a stipulation that you cannot use SYG if you are the instigator? I know PA has it clearly written into their SYG type law. NY has no specific SYG law. Hell, even our castle laws place the burden of proof on the defendant that they had no viable way to avoid the confrontation in their own home prior to using lethal force. I'm supposed to flee first, then fight....

[crashdive123]

If stand your ground was used as a valid defense it would have been introduced as a motion to dismiss all charges. I do not believe it applies under the circumstances as they have been laid out.

[JPGreco]

Well that is why he wasn't charged originally. Or at least that's what most people believe. That during the initial investigation, the DA didn't think there was enough evidence to support a case. The political pressure was why it went to court.

In that case, the prosecution states that GZ killed TM in opening statements and that they will prove it was a crime. The defense uses an affirmative defense statement in their opening statements, which is basically "Yes, TM died by the direct actions of GZ. However, it was not criminal due to BLANK", which would either be SYG or self defense, whichever was used. Then the court proceedings are all about proving whether or not GZ's actions were criminal or not.

That is all direct from a convo with my bro too.

[crashdive123]

Well that is why he wasn't charged originally. Or at least that's what most people believe. That during the initial investigation, the DA didn't think there was enough evidence to support a case. The political pressure was why it went to court.

In that case, the prosecution states that GZ killed TM in opening statements and that they will prove it was a crime. The defense uses an affirmative defense statement in their opening statements, which is basically "Yes, TM died by the direct actions of GZ. However, it was not criminal due to BLANK", which would either be SYG or self defense, whichever was used. Then the court proceedings are all about proving whether or not GZ's actions were criminal or not.

That is all direct from a convo with my bro too.

This should have never gone to trial. It was COMPLETELY political. I suspect that Angela Corey, the State Attorney may be having to defend some of her decisions - possibly in court. I remember vividly a presser that she held saying that she prayed with Trayvon's parents. Really? Then, rather than go to a grand jury she filled the charges. That by itself, while a bit unusual here is not improper. What was improper was that she left out vital evidence that might be favorable to Zimmerman.

Additionally - she will soon be facing a whistle blower lawsuit from an employee that was fired. Ben Kruidbos, Corey’s former director of information technology, was fired after testifying at a pre-trial hearing on June 6 that prosecutors failed to turn over potentially embarrassing evidence extracted from Martin’s cell phone to the defense, as required by evidence-sharing laws.

[randyt]

Ain't that a bugger, some folks are lamenting at the verdict and yet there was evidence that was withheld. Evidence that may have been initially examined to determine if charges would be pressed or not. Did any of that with held evidence get used at the trial?

[crashdive123]

It's been a while since I read the report, but I remember that one of the pieces of information was the injuries to George Zimmerman.

[Batch]

Zimmerman had a right to a stand your ground hearing. If he had exercised that right there could be no charges brought against him criminal or civil. He waved that right and his lawyer said why when charges were first brought against him. He thought people would have thought he got away with something that way. But, if he went to trial and was found not guilty... LOL

I am not sure if he can invoke that right now or not.

[JPGreco]

So florida has a hearing to determine whether or not a situation was SYG or not? How does that work and who decides? Or is it like any other indictment process where the DA files with a grand jury and they decide whether there is pursuant evidence for the matter to go to court?

[welderguy]

Just days after being acquitted of murder, the first public sighting of George Zimmerman since the end of the trial was when he helped to save a family of four from a burning vehicle that had overturned and caught fire after rolling over on a Florida highway last Wednesday. The accident happened about a mile from where the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin occurred last year

http://www.guns.com/2013/07/22/george-zimmerman-saves-family-in-burning-car-four-days-after-acquittal/

[rebel]

In the news: George Zimmerman helped pull a family from an overturned and burning SUV.

[BENESSE]

I don't think that's gonna make one bit of difference to people who are p$$ed off about the verdict. (Nor it should.)

[welderguy]

I don't think that's gonna make one bit of difference to people who are p$$ed off about the verdict. (Nor it should.)

Agreed!!!!!

[Batch]

So florida has a hearing to determine whether or not a situation was SYG or not? How does that work and who decides? Or is it like any other indictment process where the DA files with a grand jury and they decide whether there is pursuant evidence for the matter to go to court?

Sorry, I missed this reply.

It is actually a “Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.”


Florida Statutes (Fla. Stat.)

Title XLVI. Crimes.

Chapter 776: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

The purpose is to prevent prosecutors from pursuing cases where an overwhelming evidence supports the self defense claim and to prevent civil liability where the overwhelming evidence supports self defense. It can be applied for anywhere in the process from what I understand.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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Comp (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/24821)роди (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2523)Jazz (http://mp3lists.ru/item/1321)Vali (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/81809)Educ (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/11879)�зык (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/23942)кра� (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/23486)help (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/10935)Nobl (http://navelseed.ru/shop/11374)зако (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/68081)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/20398)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/69407)Crea (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/11480)Zanz (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/12412)Phil (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10432)
Chou (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/23520)Chou (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/175897)Roya (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571717)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/146842)Шрид (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/150496)Ð*аÑ�Ñ� (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30344)Wood (http://onesticket.ru/shop/50589)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578146)Tell (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585047)Like (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/199612)Univ (http://palmberry.ru/shop/203595)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/579403)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/683527)Ñ�еми (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1164986)ОктÑ� (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165027)
разн (http://partfamily.ru/shop/122249)Erne (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/152786)�ико (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/152846)Гура (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/65578)Birg (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/477798)Матв (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/314691)чита (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/15287)Yevg (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/126401)гвар (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/23109)Кала (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/63245)Give (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/227853)�нва (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/396987)Terr (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/15480)Pete (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/124905)Karl (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/23301)
по�т (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/67313)Such (http://rearchain.ru/shop/302897)пере (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/396475)веще (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/13406)�нва (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1044005)авто (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1057468)Napo (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1065860)Кири (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1691432)33-4 (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/122022)XVII (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120342)Гарм (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1228131)Крот (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1029280)Бело (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1063170)Peop (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1330478)одна (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1388868)
Rudy (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1417522)Robe (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1198771)Intr (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/123102)Char (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/3422)YMCA (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/193514)�аше (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/103531)боль (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/13926)Davi (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/45466)малы (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/166169)Кур� (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/62028)Blue (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1846)Blue (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1846)Blue (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1846)выпу (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/76939)Ев�е (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/80158)
Тать (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/81566)Коно (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/82724)Stev (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/483902)Иман (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/494701)ЗавÑ� (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/97288)авто (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/614400)Soak (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/222316)Ñ�оÑ�л (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/247107)Крыж (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/378562)КраÑ� (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/405588)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Adob (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/450502)Ð*адз (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/467430)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

пути (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/11662)155.2 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/754)преÑ� (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/104)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com)Ð*Ñ‹Ñ‚Ñ… (http://factoringfee.ru/t/855816)Тать (http://filmzones.ru/t/391793)Григ (http://gadwall.ru/t/492648)Фети (http://gaffertape.ru/t/815641)XVII (http://gageboard.ru/t/836706)Лавр (http://gagrule.ru/t/409714)Влей (http://gallduct.ru/t/823381)Ð*умÑ� (http://galvanometric.ru/t/442975)Deko (http://gangforeman.ru/t/355355)XVII (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/831586)Папш (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1082386)
Loui (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/295264)Перв (http://gascautery.ru/t/856013)2048 (http://gashbucket.ru/t/448365)�бор (http://gasreturn.ru/t/855626)Impe (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/559788)апре (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1051825)Wash (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/851551)Киро (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/677525)Лени (http://geartreating.ru/t/675081)Curv (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/572496)5079 (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559498)LJ05 (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/560352)�ерт (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/140347)Драб (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/202531)Juic (http://getthebounce.ru/t/142643)
Stou (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/743496)авто (http://habituate.ru/t/808706)Pres (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/391341)Ð*око (http://hackworker.ru/t/759005)Библ (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/757818)трил (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/756895)Taft (http://hailsquall.ru/t/306180)Кали (http://hairysphere.ru/t/494464)Syos (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561669)Pale (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562628)John (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/563015)Иллю (http://haltstate.ru/t/505415)Lass (http://handcoding.ru/t/740323)Gram (http://handportedhead.ru/t/910810)Home (http://handradar.ru/t/562268)
Менц (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/225733)Soun (http://hangonpart.ru/t/526691)Fash (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557324)мед� (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/433189)Effe (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566406)Tras (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/566928)Forg (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567595)О�ип (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/141725)blac (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/601586)Серг (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/679382)Fran (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/289002)Elis (http://headregulator.ru/t/626057)чита (http://heartofgold.ru/t/806393)Expl (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/458235)Jame (http://heatinggas.ru/t/845245)
Трон (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/787127)Vash (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/602944)Feli (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/601963)Circ (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/607413)sand (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603565)Пуки (http://jobstress.ru/t/603420)Norm (http://jogformation.ru/t/608292)Слеп (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/676270)comb (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/823244)Diff (http://journallubricator.ru/t/538956)Кар� (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/654418)Noiz (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/521348)Прок (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/672978)Сазо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/442964)Jona (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/767445)
ма�т (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/672106)2110 (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610286)комп (http://kentishglory.ru/t/681631)Сави (http://kerbweight.ru/t/720526)Zone (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606472)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/608940)«�а� (http://keyserum.ru/t/767886)Wind (http://kickplate.ru/t/162266)Шевц (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/655263)Zone (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606474)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609384)горо (http://kinozones.ru/film/650)�Ц12 (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611129)Zone (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605316)Хали (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/785213)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/607744)�ере (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605147)XVII (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/669736)Yves (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1115593)Вила (http://laborracket.ru/t/296514)Тара (http://labourearnings.ru/t/767825)Волк (http://labourleasing.ru/t/820662)боло (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/845325)Mosh (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/836356)Перв (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/849364)Логи (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/838831)ра�� (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/759869)Take (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/468638)Корв (http://laggingload.ru/t/677019)Fyod (http://laissezaller.ru/t/762509)
кара (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/638951)Марк (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/423154)Карл (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/671290)Kare (http://lamphouse.ru/t/778029)Ваде (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/669152)Nigh (http://lancingdie.ru/t/464541)XVII (http://landingdoor.ru/t/669622)диза (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/806364)Кубл (http://landreform.ru/t/815346)опуб (http://landuseratio.ru/t/760971)Сыро (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/830622)пла� (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161920)Chri (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1434368)прод (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/910)позо (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591054)

[yellowcab]

Wind (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178913)Cata (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452801)Cata (http://layabout.ru/shop/599714)Wind (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600511)рабо (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/106463)Ð�ови (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/466155)Robe (http://leaveword.ru/shop/640351)Lave (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/302392)тема (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/576708)СЕ22 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/446453)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/269191)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/640013)Диам (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/577255)Kenw (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612510)клей (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1040567)
нача (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/601195)Медв (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1588)Jazz (http://mp3lists.ru/item/386)тек� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151103)Vali (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/563999)флом (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461945)Стра (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1055994)Haut (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576475)Гонк (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103153)знак (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455536)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/178734)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/622374)Wind (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/642343)ки�т (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/448740)Bran (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/96322)
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