Pentagon Scrubs 3D Gun Plans from Internet [Archive]

Ken

05-10-2013, 12:51 PM

They are trying to get this type of information classified under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations. Thus making it a crime to do such things as make this information available to the public at large.

That will be an absolute first. The government can control the publication of its own classified (within the law - remember the "Pentagon Papers?") information, information stolen from others, and critical national security information, such as privately gathered intelligence on the security measures for a high-ranking official, a schematic for a nuclear weapon developed by a university, or instructions for making biological weapons. In every instance, the publication controlled pertains to information that is secret, stolen, or absolutely critical.

Information regarding the manufacturing of 3-D copied firearms is still readily available. It is not owned by the government, stolen from a private source, or significant to national security because hundreds of millions of guns are already in circulation. The process for manufacturing such guns is irrelevant.

My two biggest concerns are (1) this is the clear violation of the First Amendment, and (2) this action was taken without any statutory authority whatsoever.

Ken

05-10-2013, 12:58 PM

Copy machines were highly regulated and controlled in the Soviet Union and behind the old "Iron Curtain." Most Soviets were still using carbon paper decades after copy machines became prevalent here.

When high-quality low-cost color copiers hit the market here, attempts were made to control and regulate them in order to stem counterfeiting - those attempts failed.

Just watch. There will be a move to regulate 3-D copiers.

Winter

05-10-2013, 01:39 PM

Overstepping authority= tyranny.

Ken

05-10-2013, 01:49 PM

Overstepping authority= tyranny.

And how about this? Do you ever remember the State Department and the Department of Defense dictating to non-military United States citizens living in the United States?

GreatUsername

05-10-2013, 02:07 PM

And how about this? Do you ever remember the State Department and the Department of Defense dictating to non-military United States citizens living in the United States?

Exactly. Legislative reform, changing ATF guidelines so that homemade weapons were no longer allowed, or other actions that would put down the liberator, so long as they were signed into law congressionally, would be significantly less overstep. When an executive action creates de-facto legal authority, the executive branch is playing in the legislative branch's domain. Now, for congress to restrict firearms in that way might be deemed non-constitutional by the supreme court, but that same check of power almost never applies to executive actions. Judicial review of the executive is decidedly rare in American history. That's why this is so unsettling.

Winter

05-10-2013, 02:31 PM

And how about this? Do you ever remember the State Department and the Department of Defense dictating to non-military United States citizens living in the United States?

I do not.

This quote concerns me greatly.

"Until further notice, the United States government claims control of the information."

2dumb2kwit

05-10-2013, 03:23 PM

I really thought the media would finally call out the Gov't , when it finally came to them crapping on the 1st amendment. I guess I was wrong. It appears that the media hates the second amendment enough to ignore the Gov't crapping on the 1st amendment.

natertot

05-10-2013, 10:00 PM

Overstepping authority= tyranny.

I agree. I also agree with Ken that this tramples on the 1st amendment. Guns and speech today, totaltarian government tomorrow.......:no:

Rick

05-11-2013, 07:17 AM

You guys have twisted this a bit. The government ASKED him to remove it and he complied. I have no idea what would have happened had he not removed it but plenty of other sites still make it available for download. I don't see the issue on the government's part. Here's the actual letter.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/140471313/Letter-from-Department-of-State-to-Defense-Distributed

Ken, join in here. My understanding is if they had used the word "shall" then DefCad would have been required to remove the information. Not true with the word "should". Is that correct?

but that same check of power almost never applies to executive actions.

Of course it does. Truman and Clinton both had EOs overturned by courts. Congress can override an EO by 2/3 majority (admittedly pretty difficult) or block funding of the EO.

canid

05-11-2013, 08:11 AM

The internet forgets nothing. What has been shared can not be unshared.

canid

05-11-2013, 08:18 AM

What really bothers me (apart from censorship of CAD/CAM data, as with any instructional material) is that I'm pretty sure Wilson ended his decfad launch video with the words 'no takedowns, ever', the site having itself started in response to thingaverse's takedown of their content hosted there.

Ken

05-11-2013, 08:18 AM

They're playing the semantics game, Rick. "Should," "Shall," "Must," and similar words have unique nuances, but the message is nonetheless crystal clear. The State Department is conditioned to frame all communications in ""diplo-speak." Think of it this way: You get stopped on the road by men in uniform, and you realize that guns are pointed at your head, and one says to you, "Rick, we really don't think you should drive any further, will you please step out of the car?" Would you take that as a request or as an order?

I have no doubt that the information would have been removed, either by way of threat or innuendo, a Preliminary Injunction, or administrative order.

There are several troubling factors about this whole issue. I need more coffee before I explain.

deanathpc

05-11-2013, 08:51 AM

Guess it's a good think I downloaded their almost 500 MB file of different things then huh? Can't take that back.. That pistol I don't have though from a quick glance through the .zip file that I have. I'll have to take a gander through it better later this weekend when I'm more awake.

Ken

05-11-2013, 08:56 AM

First of all, my greatest concern is that regardless of the methods employed, the STATE DEPARTMENT is now charged with regulating the conduct of Americans at home to force us, AT HOME, to comply with international treaties that I believe violate our rights under the First and Second Amendments. Internet censorship has a chilling effect on a free society.

Take a look at some excerpts from a CRS Report to Congress....

"Since the commercialization of the Internet in 1995, the government has issued extensive regulations regarding Internet usage. Because these regulations often overlap, are regularly updated, and are created and carried out by multiple government agencies, the legal infrastructure regarding Internet usage is extraordinarily complex. At least 12 different government agencies are involved in Internet regulation, which are directed at Internet service and content providers, cyber-café operators, and Internet users themselves.

Internet service providers (ISPs) must record each customer’s account number, phone number, IP address, sites visited, and time spent online. Internet content providers (ICPs) that publish information, operate electronic bulletin boards, or engage in journalism must record all content made available and the date it was issued. For both service and content providers, these records must be maintained for 60 days and surrendered to relevant government agencies upon request. Operators are required to keep detailed logs linking users to the pages they visited and record visits to any blocked pages, and report these to the (government). As with ISPs and ICPs, operators must retain this information for 60 days."

I omitted a few words and phrases here and there, but not one word of content was otherwise changed. It all seems reasonable, right? I mean, that IS what we're doing here, correct?

Now look at the actual report itself and tell me if you still feel the same way:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA462477

crashdive123

05-11-2013, 09:17 AM

Ken

05-11-2013, 09:25 AM

While they may have voluntarily taken it down, it seems that they might have "issues" if they decided to put it back up. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/may/09/3d-printed-guns-plans-state-department

FROM THE ARTICLE: "On Sunday, New York senator Charles Schumer said (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/nov/25/3d-wiki-weapons-guns) that legislation should be created to prevent people from making 3D printed guns."

Will knives be next on Schumer's list?

BENESSE

05-11-2013, 11:02 AM

FROM THE ARTICLE: "On Sunday, New York senator Charles Schumer said (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/nov/25/3d-wiki-weapons-guns) that legislation should be created to prevent people from making 3D printed guns."

Will knives be next on Schumer's list?

Do you all really not see any difference between guns and knives or you're just funning?

Ken

05-11-2013, 11:14 AM

Do you all really not see any difference between guns and knives or you're just funning?

Ask Winnie that question.

BENESSE

05-11-2013, 11:28 AM

On the one hand, you guys seem to equate the two, and in the same breath make a case for having the right to own the frigging surface to air missiles just like the armed forces. Confusing, to say the least. "Out there" to say the most.

Yes, I can ask Winnie...and I can also ask my Swiss friends who have grown up with firearms, own them and practice with them often and who live in a country where everyone's on board about what firearms are, and what they're not.

Of course, we don't care about learning from other countries (good and bad) unless it happens to support our set in stone, preconceived views. And that's one of our biggest problems, the way I see it.

Ken

05-11-2013, 12:18 PM

On the one hand, you guys seem to equate the two, and in the same breath make a case for having the right to own the frigging surface to air missiles just like the armed forces. Confusing, to say the least. "Out there" to say the most.

Nice try. In law, we refer to this as an "argumentum ad absurdum." Basically, that means that you're trying to prove that my statement will lead to an absolutely absurd result. For example, if I were to say that I have a right to feed my child cupcakes, it would be absurd for you to respond by saying that since I'm arguing that I have the right to feed my child cupcakes if I choose to, that means I'm suggesting that I have the right to feed my child ANY AMOUNT of cupcakes I may choose to, when obviously I have no such right since my child would die if I fed him/her 1,000 cupcakes in an hour.

Common sense dictates that our concerns are limited to restrictions on small arms, handguns, rifles, shotguns, knives, and the like. Nonetheless, even within those parameters, legitimate - not absurd, disagreement exists as to the Constitutionality of restrictions on such weapons.

Yes, I can ask Winnie...and I can also ask my Swiss friends who have grown up with firearms, own them and practice with them often and who live in a country where everyone's on board about what firearms are, and what they're not.

My reference to Winnie was in response to your earlier question about the difference between guns and knives. You can ask Winnie about the restrictions on knives in the U.K., but I think you already know what I'm talking about.

Of course, we don't care about learning from other countries (good and bad) unless it happens to support our set in stone, preconceived views. And that's one of our biggest problems, the way I see it.

Most of us, I believe, are open to learning. In fact, that's why we're here.

What's important is what works for us. I'm unimpressed with Communism, Sharia Law, and Socialism in any form. I cringe at the thought of adopting as our own any restriction of legitimate liberty imposed by any nation upon its people.

Finally, I firmly believe that our Founding Fathers experienced enough tyranny at the hands of government to know that the greatest threat to our fledgling nation - then and now - would always come from whatever form of government we adopted. Our Founders rightfully wanted government to fear the people, and they gave us a framework to build our laws upon that was nothing short of brilliant. The government has had over two centuries to chip away at the rights of the people, and many - those we call "sheep" - have welcomed limitations imposed on our freedoms.

GreatUsername

05-11-2013, 12:31 PM

Of course it does. Truman and Clinton both had EOs overturned by courts. Congress can override an EO by 2/3 majority (admittedly pretty difficult) or block funding of the EO.

Good point, but I'm talking about executive actions from executive branch administrations like the Pentagon. Presidents get more scrutiny because, well, they are Presidents. FBI or CIA or ATF or DOD or Pentagon actions tend to be overlooked until after the damage is done, unless I'm mistaken.

Ken

05-11-2013, 12:33 PM

Good point, but I'm talking about executive actions from executive branch administrations like the Pentagon. Presidents get more scrutiny because, well, they are Presidents. FBI or CIA or ATF or DOD or Pentagon actions tend to be overlooked until after the damage is done, unless I'm mistaken.

https://www.federalregister.gov/

BENESSE

05-11-2013, 01:04 PM

Nice try. In law, we refer to this as an "argumentum ad absurdum." Basically, that means that you're trying to prove that my statement will lead to an absolutely absurd result. For example, if I were to say that I have a right to feed my child cupcakes, it would be absurd for you to respond by saying that since I'm arguing that I have the right to feed my child cupcakes if I choose to, that means I'm suggesting that I have the right to feed my child ANY AMOUNT of cupcakes I may choose to, when obviously I have no such right since my child would die if I fed him/her 1,000 cupcakes in an hour.
That wasn't my argument, that's the argument made here by a few who tend not to be guided by common sense.

Common sense dictates that our concerns are limited to restrictions on small arms, handguns, rifles, shotguns, knives, and the like. Nonetheless, even within those parameters, legitimate - not absurd, disagreement exists as to the Constitutionality of restrictions on such weapons.
Absurd, yes! My point exactly...not much common sense used on this particular topic.

My reference to Winnie was in response to your earlier question about the difference between guns and knives. You can ask Winnie about the restrictions on knives in the U.K., but I think you already know what I'm talking about.
Fine...but that's an answer to a question I didn't raise. That's an example of going to another extreme...exactly what I abhor no matter what direction we take.

Most of us, I believe, are open to learning. In fact, that's why we're here.
What's important is what works for us. I'm unimpressed with Communism, Sharia Law, and Socialism in any form. I cringe at the thought of adopting as our own any restriction of legitimate liberty imposed by any nation upon its people.

Who here is impressed, pray tell?
No one (certainly not I) is suggesting we adopt practices that are counter to who we are and what we stand for...our collective American DNA. But that doesn't mean we can't draw some learning from others about what works and what doesn't. Firearms from the Swiss, security from the Israelis, cuisine from the French, legalized pot and prostitution from the Dutch, etc, etc.

Finally, I firmly believe that our Founding Fathers experienced enough tyranny at the hands of government to know that the greatest threat to our fledgling nation - then and now - would always come from whatever form of government we adopted. Our Founders rightfully wanted government to fear the people, and they gave us a framework to build our laws upon that was nothing short of brilliant. The government has had over two centuries to chip away at the rights of the people, and many - those we call "sheep" - have welcomed limitations imposed on our freedoms.
Wholeheartedly agree, and always have!

It's counterproductive to look for differences when none exist; we, individually and as a country, can accomplish much more if recognize the points of agreement and build on them. IMHO, of course.

welderguy

05-11-2013, 03:21 PM

I did some research prior to posting, Im a bit confused, It seems By BATF rules your still allowed to make a firearm for private use as long as it is within there rules. Why are they making an issue out of the plans for printed guns? how is that different than pulling up the drilling schematics for an AK ? or for the liberator .45 ? Have i missed something?

canid

05-11-2013, 07:01 PM

welderguy

05-11-2013, 08:34 PM

you are allowed to make any non NFA firearm. It can never be transferred and that freedom is restricted in many jurisdictions. I recently read from the state of Texas's criminal code for example, and was amazed to see how poorly it defines 'zip-gun'. The definition, though somewhat vague, literally encompasses all firearms whatever.

correct, so why are they all f'@#*ed up over the printer guns!!!!! Some of Texas Codes are either very broad or very vague it sucks sometimes.+

Rick

05-11-2013, 08:54 PM

Welder - I think ITAR deals specifically with international arms. My guess is the weapon plopped on someone's radar screen in the department and they sat scratching their head.

B - SAM missiles really aren't germane. The National Firearms Act of 1934 categorized weapons and you can own any of them if you want to pay the money. Destructive devices happens to include explosive missiles and even poison gas. Did I hear you say that there must be a catch? Will you walk away from a fool and his money? If you want it, here it is come and get it. But you better hurry 'cause it's going fast.

@GreatUserName - you also make a good point.

@Ken - If I understand the National Register correctly any Senator or Representative can alter his/her statements to ANYTHING they want and it has to become a part of our history. So a Senator might say I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment then have the Register altered to read that he is opposed to it.

By the way, your analogy was a good one.

canid

05-11-2013, 11:06 PM

correct, so why are they all f'@#*ed up over the printer guns!!!!! Some of Texas Codes are either very broad or very vague it sucks sometimes.+

You know, it's amusing. I read people online claiming that this means 'free guns', and I have seen senators speak about it as though this is a viable workaround to buying firearms. This liberator pistol will self destruct after firing. It is not 'free' (the equipment required to print one, even at the low end, costs significantly more than a decent pistol, and more than low-end machine tools), and the time involved in printing is is probably on the order of the tens of hours for most such machines, comparable with the time required to subtractively machine a comparable durable firearm.

[edit: it appears you can now get a budget extruder type printer for around $500, so it is in the same price range as a decent pistol or budget mini-lath or mini-mill.]

As far as any concern over ITAR goes, this means exactly that there are already protocols in place to restrict the international distribution of software products classified as arms. Strong crypto is one such example. They briefly tried to suppress the public availability of strong cryptography and due to the nature of global IT infrastructure, failed miserably. They merely adapted the law to prohibit export of such software to inappropriate regions and cut their loss. Same problem here, same probable eventual outcome. It's a red herring.

As far as the fed's attention; a few senators caught wind of the project early on, and they have experienced gradually widening attention from various agencies since. They at one point published an infographic of the domains their traffic was originating from by percentage which clearly demonstrated the trend.

canid

05-11-2013, 11:23 PM

I did just read that one of the items requested in the takedown was an airgun silencer developed by a Kiwi and uploaded to thingaverse (which escaped their housecleaning which had prompted the development of defcad in the first place) and which unless I'm mistaken was not at the time hosted at defcad in any event.

welderguy

05-12-2013, 09:30 AM

I guess what I am trying to say is, what makes a 3d printer such a no no for firearms making, when ive seen an Ar lower made from wood.

welderguy

05-12-2013, 09:32 AM

@ canid, Nothing is free or cheap anymore, IMHO it isnt about the cost its about being able to own a firearm that dose not have a large stack of paperwork attached to it. And that option could be priceless!!

canid

05-12-2013, 05:07 PM

As far as the ability to manufacture firearms in a clandestine manner, this technology also gives only little advantage over previous technologies. Anybody, in this or many other countries, can buy machine tools, the conventional method for manufacturing modern metal arms, without questions asked. Absent of those, many existing goods are readily adaptable to firearms, of a quality comparable to or better than, for example, the pistol in question. disposable .22 cal. firearms have been made from anything from bic pens to brake line.

It's really, as far as I'm concerned, some vague aversion to the concept of home manufacture of goods in general, which in 20-30 years could supplant in average homes whole segments of our manufacturing and import markets. This is not to say that this is a manifestation of that specific fear, but even a general apprehension of some unknown future like it.

In addition, there is that a hand full of people (who do not seem to clearly understand the technology or it's current limitations) seem to sincerely believe (or at least speak publicly as though they do) that this enables the mass public (perhaps politically motivated, criminal) production of unlimited arms

It is certainly an interesting technology, and with great ultimate potential, but it's not there, and is likely to spend the vast majority of it's time heading in entirely other directions. It is, more than enabling, or even significantly improving arms manufacture really just an amusing novelty in this application.

canid

05-12-2013, 05:47 PM

I just heard it claimed that the current liberator design can't be printed (or not in safe condition) by the low end extrusion printers anyway.

welderguy

05-12-2013, 05:52 PM

I just heard it claimed that the current liberator design can't be printed (or not in safe condition) by the low end extrusion printers anyway.

I dont think i would trust low end anything when it comes to something that can go BOOM!!!!

canid

05-12-2013, 06:01 PM

And that's probably wise.

The printer used to develop this pistol costs $8k. You could buy a pretty good Bridgeport type mill and toolroom lathe, with enough left over for a CNC conversion on both and all the tooling you'd need to start a small manufacturing shop for durable firearms for that. Scrap the CNC conversion, and you could do down to any number of neighborhoods and buy an under the table pistol while you were at it.

You could put together injection molding tooling for less.

welderguy

05-12-2013, 06:04 PM

canid

05-12-2013, 06:14 PM

welderguy

05-12-2013, 06:23 PM

Do we agree that, while [I feel] cool and novel, this application for this technology is of relatively minor significance when weighed against conventional options, relative to the big scare being made from it?

That is pretty much my point too, there are several ways to manufacture weapons . So why are they getting there butts in an uproar over this method !!! makes no sense to me at all.

canid

05-12-2013, 06:27 PM

That's what I'm struggling with as well. My suspicion is that it is like I said above, or possibly, a simple red herring. Or all of them at once.

canid

05-12-2013, 06:35 PM

Next: I forsee a run at cracking down on SDR.

natertot

05-12-2013, 08:57 PM

That is pretty much my point too, there are several ways to manufacture weapons . So why are they getting there butts in an uproar over this method !!! makes no sense to me at all.

Because it is a new method. If the gubment can stop new methods, then it is fewer methods to have to attack later.

Desert Rat!

05-12-2013, 10:42 PM

Meanwhile there are thousands of milling machines all across the Country happily milling AR-15 lowers, keep your eye on the plastic hand gun nothing to see back here.:whistling:

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yellowcab

10-11-2025, 02:18 AM

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yellowcab

12-23-2025, 07:57 PM

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yellowcab

12-23-2025, 07:58 PM

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yellowcab

03-23-2026, 01:41 AM

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