View Full Version : Thinking About Fuel
I was making a big pan of pea soup a couple of days ago, and while it was taking a couple of hours to simmer, I gave some thought to the fuel being consumed to produce the heat required. How long could I survive "off the grid" so to speak before I ran out of alternative means to cook, or fuel to heat the house, or fuel to travel with?
My supply? I probably have about 3 month's worth of propane in portable tanks, to be used for cooking and boiling water only. I have two vehicles with gas tanks that are usually at least half full, and another 15+ gallons in storage - about 50 gallons total at most, and it's illegal to otherwise store any substantial quantity of gasoline in most places. Say maybe a half-cord of wood for fires. About 150 gallons of heating oil (which is useless to heat the house without electricity - and the generators will run out of gas soon enough).
Gas stations will run dry fast and probably won't operate at all without power from the grid - most don't have generators. Vehicles powered by diesel fuel (can I say "home heating oil for emergency travel use only?") could be an short-term option for anyone with a couple of 275/325 gallon tanks at home, if you have enough cans and room in your vehicle to carry it and a hand crank pump to get it out of the oil tanks.
Oil, natural gas, propane, and electric heating systems all require electricity to operate.
So choose your scenario: A mass evacuation order. A major long-term electric grid failure for whatever reason. Widespread sabotage to our gas and oil refinineries and/or distribution chain.
I was thinking that the greatest vulnerablity in our preps, for most of us anyway, is the availability of fuel.
We read about (some of us lived through) Hurricane Sandy and the weeks following when tens of thousands lived without electric power and heat in their homes.
We read about (some of us lived through) Hurricane Katrina (and others) where mass evacuations were ordered, and many were left without enough gasoline to get out of Dodge.
We read about (some of us lived through) the major ice storms that downed power lines for weeks in the Northeast section of the United States.
In the long term, wood supplies would quickly be depleted for most of us, and would only be good for cooking unless you have a fireplace or wood stove.
Solar heat? Solar power generation? Great, it you don't have to leave home.
I suspect that I'm about as prepared as most of us, except for the few ("cough".... like Sourdough) who have lots of stored diesel and wood available. I'm convinced that fuel is our collective Achilles Heel for the most part.
So, other than no-cooking required foods and lots of sweaters, blankets, and candles, does anyone have any realistic solutions out there?
JPGreco
04-23-2013, 07:50 PM
It would depend on your situation. People lived thousands and thousands of years without most modern fuels. So really, the only fuel is wood or something else to burn to cook with. Even then, solar cooking is an option.
Do your preps include solar power cells? Oil conversion ability to make bio diesel? A horse or bicycle for transportation? I mean, there are options depending on your situation. Fuel for anything other than cooking isn't a necessity, but rather a luxury, which I see survival as the ability to survive with the necessities and without most luxuries.
Solar cells though I see as the best option. Possibly running small heaters or pumps for geothermal heating.
It would depend on your situation. People lived thousands and thousands of years without most modern fuels. So really, the only fuel is wood or something else to burn to cook with. Even then, solar cooking is an option.
Do your preps include solar power cells? Oil conversion ability to make bio diesel? A horse or bicycle for transportation? I mean, there are options depending on your situation. Fuel for anything other than cooking isn't a necessity, but rather a luxury, which I see survival as the ability to survive with the necessities and without most luxuries.
Solar cells though I see as the best option. Possibly running small heaters or pumps for geothermal heating.
Only a small solar power cell - enough to charge a cell phone and not much more. A couple of bicycles, which isn't saying much. Like I mentioned, wood will soon be depleted for most of us. Oil conversion for bio-diesel? Nope. Fuel is the first thing I will run out of.
randyt
04-23-2013, 08:05 PM
My plan is to rely on haybox and thermos cooking using wood or propane, mostly wood. For heat a ventless kerosene heater with ventilation and wood stove. I probably have 15 cord of wood on hand. If need be I'll microclime my home and shack up in a couple rooms. For restroom needs we'll use the outhouse. For water I'll pull it from the well or pond or crick. I won't use any gasoline unless I absolutely have to and it will probably be for the chainsaw. I would like to rig up a solar power system to recharge cordless tool batteries and such. I have lots more wood outback.
Sourdough
04-23-2013, 08:05 PM
I have about 15 propane jugs the 5 gal. size. In the cabin I have been using the same "Coleman" propane camp stove for cooking. This is the only stove I have for cooking & it has been in continual use for 14 years. I fully expected this stove to have died 8 or 12 years ago.
I have started back packing the 5 gal. tanks of propane, (they only weigh about 36# full) up into the deeper wilderness at cache sites along with a stove & lantern to each cache site.
Cast-Iron
04-23-2013, 08:21 PM
It might mean a different level of comfort, but I don't see how you can exclude renewables. With a modest investment you can have a system which could supply enough energy for a few electronic gadgets, security system, communications and lighting. And all without the noise and fuel issues of a gas powered generator. This system can be incorporated into a small cargo trailer so you could take it with you without drawing much attention to yourself. With a few high quality deep cycle batteries, you could get as many as 20 years of reliable service from this type of a system. But I would have a few spare key components for peace of mind: charge contoller, inverter, fuses, wiring and solar panels. Unless you care to spend the bucks, these systems usually aren't sized for electric heating or cooking. You might get by with some limited use of a small microwave but anything with heating elements will take significant energy to power.
Around here it is common for rural homes to have stationary propane tanks. These tanks come in a multitude of sizes up to 1000 gallon (or more) capacity. A thousand gallons, used conservatively and only for cooking, would likely last me several years or more. Propane space heaters don't require electricity to operate, but there are carbon monoxide issues with them. Then there is always a wood stove. Takes a bit more to maintain, but a good source of heat in the winter.
LowKey
04-23-2013, 09:32 PM
Long term? In the more urban areas, you are going to be protecting the wood your house is made out of if it's a long term outage. You can bet deforestation won't take more than a couple of months. You better hope all those city folk don't come looking for a warm place to stay. If it's a really TEOTWAWKI event, wellllll, this little ol' Earth cannot sustain the amount of human critters it has growing all over it.
There may be a mass migration south. Hey Crash, got room at your place for a few million Northerners?
Why gas stations don't have generators is a huge hole in state emergency planning. There's no excuse not to have a $3000 machine installed to keep the pumps running. Especially since you have the GAS to run it.
kyratshooter
04-23-2013, 10:02 PM
Heat in our homes is a new concept in human development, and much the result of the overabundance of wood in north America.
In European history the hearth was a pit in the middle of the floor where a small fire of twigs was used to cook the meals. Village ovens were used to bake bread. Fuel was restricted to what twigs fell to the ground. No wood cutting was allowed. When a tree fell it was a "windfall" Even latter in history the Cockle Oven provided all the warmth and cooking capabilities most Europeans were allowed.
I heat with electricity, but I have backup propane, a kerosene heater and a woodstove w/a whole winter supply of split wood. There is enough wood to keep me supplied for a couple of years within toting distance.
The only real fuel of petrolium nature I want to guarentee is available is enought to power my garden tiller to get the food in. 5 gallons a year will do that job.
I do not understand the concept people have that they will need auto fuel post SHTF. Where are you going to go? We spend so much time traveling about in today's world people simply can not grasp the concept that they will have nowhere to go! Or that if they try to travel they will be instant targets! Or that roadblocks and martial law will have them trapped in place.
I only burn about 5 gallons a week in my vehicles now. Post SHTF it would be ZERO!
randyt
04-23-2013, 10:19 PM
Kyrat, how about peat? Was that basically a British Isle fuel source?
crashdive123
04-23-2013, 10:24 PM
............Why gas stations don't have generators is a huge hole in state emergency planning. There's no excuse not to have a $3000 machine installed to keep the pumps running. Especially since you have the GAS to run it.
Florida passed a law in 2006 (maybe 2005?) that requires all gas stations within a certain distance of an interstate highway, on an evacuation route or of a certain size to have back up generators. All transfer stations are required to have them as well. I don't think very many states have mandated this, but would imagine that a smart business person would.
Florida passed a law in 2006 (maybe 2005?) that requires all gas stations within a certain distance of an interstate highway, on an evacuation route or of a certain size to have back up generators. All transfer stations are required to have them as well. I don't think very many states have mandated this, but would imagine that a smart business person would.
I asked that very question to owner of the station I usually go to. He told me he had looked into it and it simply was not cost effective. He said that a generator and the necessary hook-ups and safety features would cost well over $20,000.00 and claimed that his net profit on gasoline is about a nickel a gallon. If that's accurate, he'd have to sell over 400,000 gallons when the electricity was out just to break even. His underground storage capacity is about 14,000 gallons.
Davidlastink
04-23-2013, 10:42 PM
I have been thinking of getting the components for a still so that I would be able to make ethanol. Will have to look deeper into this.
rebel
04-23-2013, 11:43 PM
My back up is wood. I picked up a gas powered wood splitter last year and have a couple of years worth. A source of wood is the free section of Craig's list.
A rocket stove would help conserve wood and be mobile.
You could distill your heating oil into diesel.
You can pick up used 100 lb propane tanks for $50-75. They would be mobile and five would probably provide your heating for a winter.
JPGreco
04-23-2013, 11:51 PM
There are definitely options, but nowhere near the level of luxury available today. A still requires fuel. However, you could allow for natural fermentation and isolate the alcohol for fuel. Combine that with a variety of other fuel options and you would have enough to cook and possibly to heat a very small room on the coldest days. You're better off though building properly to combat the cold. Norwegian style homes and such would be a blessing with little or no fuel. Combine older era ideas with modern concepts and you could probably live quite comfortably. I mean, even a hand pumped geothermal well would at least allow for some warmth to be added to a small room as well as the warmth from pumping the thing. Candles actually give off a fair amount of heat in small rooms.
Winnie
04-24-2013, 04:03 AM
Kyrat, how about peat? Was that basically a British Isle fuel source?
Peat was mainly used as a fuel source where there were few or no trees. Rural communities in the Scottish Isles, and parts of Ireland were (and still are) the main consumers of Peat.
crashdive123
04-24-2013, 07:02 AM
Seems as though the biggest consumption is going to be for heating for many people. More temperate climates will allow for a focus on other needs, and save precious resources for them.
So when's that move to Florida happening?
randyt
04-24-2013, 07:08 AM
Not me, if anything I'll be moving farther north.
So when's that move to Florida happening?
Not soon enough.
birdman6660
04-24-2013, 08:23 AM
I love this topic thread ! ... for those of us already off the grid on a small solar system this is an easier task ... i have always had 30 cords of wood on hand ...i have 5 .. 100 lb propane tanks and 10 .. 20 lbs ! i have 100 gallons of gasoline that already STABIL treated (fuel stablizer) and post teotwawki will be chainsaw fuel only ! i have 3 ... 235 watt 24 volt panels and 12 ... 6 volt batteries set up in series and parallel for a big 24 volt system ... runs light n pumps .. i have 10 oil lamps and hundreds of feet of wicking .. 50 gallons of odorless kerosene for lighting as well ...i am " microcliming as of now) (if you meant downsizing ?) more seeds than you can imagine .. and 5 year food supply in order to get gardens up n running in high gear .. i have all sorts of livestock and have been saving feed bags for 12 years so I have enough to fill about 1,500 sand bags .. i live on a low area with tons n tons of sand .. so post teotwawki I am going nowhere ... in that event there will be a small community of us and well armed as well ... nobody get our food or fuel without a lot of effort .... living like this is quite enjoyable .. very simple but we like it ... OK WHAT IS A HAYBOX ? THANKS .. I really want to know .. sounds intriguing !
My plan is to rely on haybox and thermos cooking using wood or propane, mostly wood. For heat a ventless kerosene heater with ventilation and wood stove. I probably have 15 cord of wood on hand. If need be I'll microclime my home and shack up in a couple rooms. For restroom needs we'll use the outhouse. For water I'll pull it from the well or pond or crick. I won't use any gasoline unless I absolutely have to and it will probably be for the chainsaw. I would like to rig up a solar power system to recharge cordless tool batteries and such. I have lots more wood outback.
birdman6660
04-24-2013, 08:26 AM
how far north are you now ? I am 3 hours north of Toronto Canada in the middle of nowhere ! I don't even have hydro available here ...
Not me, if anything I'll be moving farther north.
cowgirlup
04-24-2013, 08:32 AM
I've thought about the heating issue. People managed to survive here since the 1700's with just fireplaces and poorly insulated homes. You adapt to the cold after a while. You may not be totally comfy but you won't die as long as you have some type of fireplace/woodstove and warm clothing.
We have generators and a good supply of fuel. For a long term event we don't plan to run the genny all day and night. Just long enough to run the well pump to get some water and run the septic system. If that fails we have a back up plan for water. We started off the winter with about 8 cords of wood and still have 4+. I think it would take a while for the woods here to be depleted. I keep a few boxex of Ecobricks on had for dire emergencies. I also keep charcoal for cooking in addition to the propane tanks for the gas grill.
Definitely make use of the haybox method of cooking. I already practice using less propane when cooking so it will become a habit. Whenever I make soup or spaghetti sauce I get it to a good boil, put a lid on it and turn it off. When I'm down to the last few minutes baking something I turn the oven off and just let residual heat finish the job.
As far as fuel for the cars we have a good supply but since we're both self employed we may not have to be anyplace.
I don't think we have enough light for solar. Especially in the winter. Still looking in to that.
I have wood (fireplace), kerosene, propane, gasoline, isobutane and alcohol and stoves that will run on all of them. I have a couple of stoves that will use both kerosene and gasoline by changing the generator. I have a an electric generator and backup gasoline for it for about 1 week. Heating the house won't be a problem even without the geny. Heating the house and not asphyxiating everyone is my worry. My home is pretty tight.
birdman6660
04-24-2013, 09:15 AM
Theres always enough light to consider solar .. even as far north as I am the batteries always charge up if not fully then just enuf for the necessities .. pump ,,lights etc. when they get very low ( which is almost never) then its reduced to water pump only (12v) as a general rule we get lights , pump .. all our charging needs and about 6 hours of TV altho we seldom watch any at all ... look into it .. might surprise ya ! !
I've thought about the heating issue. People managed to survive here since the 1700's with just fireplaces and poorly insulated homes. You adapt to the cold after a while. You may not be totally comfy but you won't die as long as you have some type of fireplace/woodstove and warm clothing.
We have generators and a good supply of fuel. For a long term event we don't plan to run the genny all day and night. Just long enough to run the well pump to get some water and run the septic system. If that fails we have a back up plan for water. We started off the winter with about 8 cords of wood and still have 4+. I think it would take a while for the woods here to be depleted. I keep a few boxex of Ecobricks on had for dire emergencies. I also keep charcoal for cooking in addition to the propane tanks for the gas grill.
Definitely make use of the haybox method of cooking. I already practice using less propane when cooking so it will become a habit. Whenever I make soup or spaghetti sauce I get it to a good boil, put a lid on it and turn it off. When I'm down to the last few minutes baking something I turn the oven off and just let residual heat finish the job.
As far as fuel for the cars we have a good supply but since we're both self employed we may not have to be anyplace.
I don't think we have enough light for solar. Especially in the winter. Still looking in to that.
Davidlastink
04-24-2013, 09:25 AM
The ethanol would be a luxury item for sparing use. But you could setup various systems where lost heat is used for the process. I have been fiddling with a radiator system where the pipes run length wise under the floor of the main level and limiting the entire structure's size and shape. The trick will be to get a comfortable layout with the least footprint. Also sinking your home is an excellent idea that works in all climes.
Having a fully underground basement and root cellar then a half above ground main level will help a lot with insulation.
One could also earth mound on the north (in the northern Hemisphere) wall of the home since little to no sun should be coming through that side. Many small well insulated windows on the east west and south wall to take advantage of the natural light.
Or I could move into a cave.... but the wife would never go for it.
Keep the still right near the water heater or some other heat source used primarily for something else. Theoretically you can pop a solar still on the roof even in northern climes, again the fuel is a luxury commodity used for specific task not letting your 16 yr old go dirt biking in the woods for fun. So even a small amount that lets you get a small quad going in an emergency could mean life vs death.
hunter63
04-24-2013, 10:54 AM
Fuel storage starts with reduction of fuel use.
Our land and cabin "The Place" was our attempt to use many of the techniques, that have been used to "do with less"
Starting with the land,....crops for food, you and possible draft animals, grow your own fuel,trees wood, bio mass....located on a south facing hill side, on a river..water/transportation/hydro.
Original plan was an "earth ship" type structure....earth berm-ed partially in ground structure......
http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-homes/earth-sheltered-house-zmaz81jazraw.aspx#axzz2ROI4rmTD
Opted for a log cabin, maybe not the best choice, but at the time it was a mortgage free, option...on that hillside.....still room for an earth berm addition.
Doing an energy audit with the local co-op, we have decided to increase insulation, before adding solar, wind, hydro....much easier to conserve energy/fuel than to manufacture it.
Primary heat source is a efficient wood stove, backed up with electric for luxuries, lights refrig, TV...and really the only necessary would be the pump.
So back up gen set(s) are needed only, be run...as the gen-sets would handle the heating and hot water needs, only.
Experience over the years has shown a problem with long term fuel storage,...gas, with low emission mixes seem to deteriorate very fast 6 mo,...will still work, but not well.
Truck/tractor Diesel, seems storage last much longer...possible "Ag fuel tank" may be in order.....haven't done it yet as there is a danger of ..."Hey everybody, here is 250 gal @ $4 bucks a gal fuel, that no one is watching right now"....But with a phone call and a check could be delivered to the property in a day or so.
Propane seems like the best way for long term storage, that won't get "stolt" from a very large tank....it isn't like you can pull up to a propane tank, and fill a gas can.
The Mad Max movies come to my mind... for some reason.....when ever fuel storage is discussed.
Any of the purchased fuel would run out, so manufacture of solar/hydro...or even wood gas fired gen set may be in order, http://www.motherearthnews.com/shopping/detail.aspx?itemnumber=762......
Solar is next with a grid tied system,(lower cost those batteries are expensive)... addition of a battery back up..... for off grid.
Neighbor up the ridge has a hay bale solar off on grid house, with composting toilet and water collection system.
Also in the mix is a collection of old style tools that don't require power (what?)....the look like decoration on the cabin, but are usable.
That leaves us with transportation.....
Options are, gas, diesel, ( can be made for soybeans)...not sure how the return on energy invested to energy realised for processing......propane, ..would need conversions for vehicles.
Then again bicycles (most likely..and a good possibility that horse (real horse) power is possible....but there again expensive to keep feed, tack (lots of Amish around advice, gear, and animals.
Actually lots of horses around for the rescue lately.
Towns are 2 mile to the north, and 3 miles south....I have to believe a lot of people will be walking, ...
and at that distance, very probable.
kyratshooter
04-24-2013, 11:38 AM
Kyrat, how about peat? Was that basically a British Isle fuel source?
Peat can be cut and dried anywhere you find it. Over here we do not call it peat, we refer to it as sporangium moss.
we do not need to forget coal!! People living near coal mines, sorting stations or transport lines will have that as a very efficient fuel scource. I have seen families scavenging for coal along the railroad tracks in EKY and ETN many times. A couple of gunny sacks of coal will keep things going for a day per sack.
The problem we will have in many cases is that peat, wood, coal all burn dirty and will irritate respiratory problems.
This will contribute to the mass die off that happens in that first year after the long term SHTF event. First will come the waterbore illnesses that weaken the population immidiately, the first wave of die off will be disentary and food poisoning and weakening from hunger, then that first winter tens of millions will die of sickness and disease.
Not plagues, simply colds that turn into phnumonia, asthma, common flu. Before the days of antibiotic plain old phneumonia was the nation's biggist killer.
Folks need to learn to do some things now, like making a barrel stove and pipe from scratch without the kit. I have made several without kits and they work fine.
All these ideas of using single burner camping stoves and rocket stoves and such will not cut it long term. That gear is not made for long term dauily use in most cases. That and with only one burner things will be difficult if cooking for a family or group.
One will need a big stove or a well thought out open pit cooking area. anyone that has been to a large camp, like out jamboree has seen the difficulty of having 1/2 dozen pans and pots on the fire or trying to cook for a group with a single heat scource. Girl Scout slaved over hot mesquete pancakes for hours last fall. We would have two or three coffee pots on the fire at the same time ...
What they did back in the day??
They wore lots of clothes inside! And it was almost all wool!
Our art of quilting first shows up as women's clothing for inside the house, not as bed coverings! The women wore so many layers it was difficult to keep up with them; first a shift made of lenin, then a wool flannel underskirt, then a skirt or two then the quilted skirt then an "overskirt" along with camisoles, bed jackets shawls and anything else they could grab.
Men were in the same boat and wore shirt, waistcoat, jacket, greatcoat, then possibly a cape. They did not shed much of it when they entered the house either. The cape and greatcoat might come off but was replaced by a shawl. Abe Lincoln liked his knit shawls even in the Whiter House, which is said to be very drafty.
Beds were made differently too. those canopies were not for show. they were draped with tapistries to contain the body heat to the bed area. Quilts and blankets were the prized items of any homemaker and Iderdown coverlets were extremely expensive trade items from early historic times.
So forget this one blanket camping idea. or the lightweight gear that will decompose in a few weeks. Your inside the house long term gear needs to have some heft too it just like gg-ma and gg-pa looked for.
If an event turns "long term", by that I mean over a year, you will have plenty of wood. There will be enough empty houses to tear down for their lumber to last a while. By the time you run out of that most of the empty lots and much of the farm land will be overgrown and the right size for cutting with a bow saw and hauling by sled, small cart or toted by hand.
When you have to cut and carry every stick and twig you burn the fire becomes a luzury.
The long term stuff falls into the nearly impossible senerio and more into the "did it on purpose" move to the retreat. I have learned most of my long term tricks from living half my life on a farm with no money. Better stuff was out there but I could not afford it!
My present setup is adequite but not the best I ever had. That situation was reserved for the 150 year old farmhouse with a fireplace in every room sitting on 100 acres of second growth hardwood. I even knew how many pieces of firewood per day I would burn at a given temperature.
I raised my kids on that place and never had any sickness issues or got cold. Not too cold anyway. There were a couple of nights where water froze in the bucket in th kitchen 5 feet away from the big woodfired cookstove we used for heat in that room!
Long term I'm just gonna die and be finished with it. Don't have to worry then.
randyt
04-24-2013, 12:35 PM
No worries Rick, be happy.
randyt
04-24-2013, 12:40 PM
how far north are you now ? I am 3 hours north of Toronto Canada in the middle of nowhere ! I don't even have hydro available here ...
Michigan is shaped like a mitten, I basically live a 1/2 inch down from the tip of the middle finger, give or take a bit. Maybe a smidge east.
A haybox is a super insulated box that a boiling pot of grub is put in and it cooks with its own heat. Sorta kinda like a beanhole.
hunter63
04-24-2013, 01:18 PM
Learning the "old ways" is good insurance for a no fuel, or low fuel aftermath.
You have to remember that many of the old ways are not supported today, with supplies being an everyday item, now become speciality good....wool blankets and clothes as an example.
Lamp oil, lye, whale oil, even coal, are harder and more expensive....and not at local stores.
Wheat, oats and even corn need to be ground....coffee substitutes found, and canning/preservation methods need to be learned and planned for.
Yeah, if you can't live with out fuel, you have a long cold way to follow......
No worries Rick, be happy.
+1 on both! But I think long term we'll all be dead....just sayin'....
Old Professor
04-24-2013, 01:55 PM
If you have access to coal, coal can be burned with wood to keep a fire hotter, longer. I remember my parents doing this when i was a kid. My father had been a coal miner and his family burned both coal and wood on a farm. I remember open grates between the floors to alow heat to rise into the second floor. I loved lying on the one right above the kitchen wood stove! I know coal tipples where you can buy a pickup truck load of "cannel coal" which is a low ash coal very similar to coking coal that the steel industry uses. I used to burn cannel coal when I had a fireplace in my house.
Here along Lake Superior, old timers tell me that when wood was their only heat, they cut and seasoned eight to ten full cords of wood per year for heating and cooking. With the new, high efficency wood burners available today, I believe wood is the best long term heat source in forested areas. Even in urban areas, you can often get free wood from the city tree trimming crews. I happen to live a few hundred yards from the village "wood Dump" where people dump trees and brush. Any one can harvest that wood for free, yet every winter they burn about a hundred cords of wood to clear the duimp space because people are too lazy to come and get free wood!
Davidlastink
04-24-2013, 01:57 PM
Sounds like my lottery ticket retirement plan Rick.
The simplest thing to do is move south if you have no setup for northern living.
Ask yourself this. Can you store goods in snow our side during the winter?
Yes?
Move south or have the right preps. There is a reason why northern civilizations tend to have hearty muscular giants vs the small lean southern civilizations. Cold is tougher to live in thus the weak die and strong live. Vikings were the result of climatic darwinisim they pillaged because there was not much to support them.
Also northern civilizations send to be less populous since resources limit population size.
Abarigionals can live with a blanket, stick and water carrier because they don't have to worry about cold. Human beings would likely not have evolved if we originated in a cold climate since our inate physical characteristics are not suited in any way for the cold nor is the development of tool usage seen in animals in cold climates.
WINTER IS COMMING.
Its a viceral existance and I would not want to be dealing with it unprepared.
Seniorman
04-24-2013, 02:21 PM
KYRATSHOOTER - "I do not understand the concept people have that they will need auto fuel post SHTF."
Well, we'll still have to go to McDonalds, Pizza Hut, and Jack In The Box, and mom & dad will still have to ferry the kids to karate class, dance class, piano lessons, wrestling class, band class, soccer games, Little League, scrapbooking class, pottery class, caligraphy class, etc. Also, mom & dad will have to drive the kids to Vail, Disneyland, and Six Flags, for their annual winter/summer vacation treks.
Of course we'll need auto fuel ... or how're mom and dad gonna keep the kids happy?? :thumbup1:
S.M.
hunter63
04-24-2013, 02:22 PM
Whole point is.....that jacked up, big motor, 42 in Buck shots, 4X4....is gonna be a chicken coup,....... when the fuel runs out....better rethink the BOV for a long term TEOTWAWKI.
Our resident off grid hermit......uses a bicycle, a cart....and a donkey/w cart as well.
Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.
GreatUsername
04-24-2013, 04:34 PM
Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.
I agree. I only plan for "a few weeks", if stuff gets permanently bad, I can worry about survival after the initial famine and plagues kill 70% of the population, if I'm one of the lucky (or unlucky?) survivors. Such complete and utter devestation is never all-world encompassing though. Consider the fall of Rome and the "dark ages". China and the Ottomans didn't even notice that Rome fell. They just ignored Europe entirely and kept on living in power, with good agriculture, relative peace, and better technology for several centuries. I rather doubt that the whole world will ever go down as one singular sinking ship. If it DOES, I think that pre-planning will only help me so much, and I'll have to see how I can adapt once I see the new reality.
kyratshooter
04-24-2013, 04:57 PM
Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.
We know Rick, but it's a survival forum so some folks come here looking for long term survival information.
Just because you don't believe in Santa Clause don't mean they are going to call off Christmas!
And you are absolutely right, If one is not prepared he is better off dead! And will accomplish that goal soon enough.
We still have sections of New Orleans not buldozed under from Katrina and H-Sandy is still in cleanup mode and we know how well TPTB delt with those situations. I still have neighbors living with in-laws due to a tornado last year, and if you don't think that takes survival skills then think again!
5 years ago we had a power outage that got the water supply within 5 hours of gone for a 1.5 million population metro area, and no, they have not fixed that situation. As Hunter would say, bad shut can happen!
And it's the astroid you don't see comming that gets you! you know, the ones where the genusis at NASA duck and say "WHAT WAS THAT???"
So when the "big one" hits California or the New Madrid Falt freaks out on us the next time and the government takes 6 months to get the first bulldozer into your area, some of this un-needed knowledge might keep a couple of folks younger than us alive for the interm.
If things keep going to he!! as rapidly as they have for the past 6 years it is information all of us will need as soon as the government runs out of other people's money.
Besides, I'm really sick of talking about terrorists and gun control!
birdman6660
04-24-2013, 05:17 PM
we know rick, but it's a survival forum so some folks come here looking for long term survival information.
Just because you don't believe in santa clause don't mean they are going to call off christmas!
And you are absolutely right, if one is not prepared he is better off dead! And will accomplish that goal soon enough.
We still have sections of new orleans not buldozed under from katrina and h-sandy is still in cleanup mode and we know how well tptb delt with those situations. I still have neighbors living with in-laws due to a tornado last year, and if you don't think that takes survival skills then think again!
5 years ago we had a power outage that got the water supply within 5 hours of gone for a 1.5 million population metro area, and no, they have not fixed that situation. As hunter would say, bad shut can happen!
And it's the astroid you don't see comming that gets you! You know, the ones where the genusis at nasa duck and say "what was that???"
so when the "big one" hits california or the new madrid falt freaks out on us the next time and the government takes 6 months to get the first bulldozer into your area, some of this un-needed knowledge might keep a couple of folks younger than us alive for the interm.
If things keep going to he!! As rapidly as they have for the past 6 years it is information all of us will need as soon as the government runs out of other people's money.
Besides, i'm really sick of talking about terrorists and gun control!
agreed and well put ..... Give this man a cigar .. Lol .
randyt
04-24-2013, 05:20 PM
comfort is so overrated
Yeah, but no one in New Orleans is living in the stone age. Those places still waiting to be bull dozed are empty. As far a living in the interim...if I ain't gonna make it then Fooey on them.
Why is all this happening anyway? Is some meteor inbound I don't know about? I think you'd be much better served to worry about what happens if you get trapped inside for 10 days because of a blizzard or the electricity is down for 3 days because of an ice storm. I can't fathom what could drive us back to the stone age for a year or more.
I had that happen last year. This year was Hurricane Sandy. I can easily fathom something somewhat worse than what I have recently experienced. My suburban home doesn't have the opportunities for storage that one might have in a more rural area, but it does have natural gas and a natural gas generator. I had no problems with natural gas during the Hurricane, though the electrical power was out for a prolonged period, so I figure that short of an EMP loss of utilities is likely to be electricity first and everything else over time.
If the natural gas goes out I've got some propane and firewood and about 15 acres of woods nearby and a chain saw. If I get in an automobile it is for a one way trip to a BOL. I figure I could make it through the first winter, but I am not prepared to go for multiple years in my present home. I'd like to be at that level, but I'd be kidding myself to think I could do it here.
longautotech
04-24-2013, 10:32 PM
One type of fuel that would be good for cooking heating running gasoline engines and even lighting (in old street lamps) would be wood gas,also known under syngas and a few other names. But it allows wood to be broken down in a process called gasification.charcoal can be used also. It was the most common substitute during WWII and is still used by those who are willing to deal with the minor restrictions and inconvientcys that are associated with it. One is you lose 20 to 30 percent of your power but it is more efficient. I am a certified automotive tech and will say that it is best if used on vehicals older than early 90s or older due to necessary modifications here is a few very informative urls below.
driveonwood.com
For more info just Google wood gasifier.
If you can fathom them, what would they be?
We've seen some very large scale power outages that were resolved in relatively short order. Weeks in some severe cases. Power companies, communications companies, petroleum companies, food companies, transportation companies, et. al., are going to do their very best to get things back to normal as quickly as possible. They have money at stake.
hunter63
04-25-2013, 10:41 AM
Just remember planning for the future is fine, who knows what that will be...but don't forget to live for today, as well.
birdman6660
04-26-2013, 08:20 AM
a rocket stove mass heater was mentioned on this thread earlier ... I had never heard of one till now sooo I googled it ... I am very surprised that I havent heard of lotsa folks building them .. they seem to be a fuel misers dream ! I went to the scrapyard last night and got most of the materials ($15) and am going to make one outside in the yard .. If it works as well as they claim at " permies.com then I will be heating my house this way come next winter .. altho I will have to split my wood a lot smaller ... any advice on these things from personal experience ?
Echo2
04-26-2013, 09:53 AM
Best long term solution IMO....very efficient for cooking.
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y484/echo26c/rocket1_zps3ac512f6.jpg
We use propane for short term.....of a year or less.
Echo2
04-26-2013, 09:58 AM
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?17954-Ever-built-a-rocket-stove&highlight=rocket+stove
randyt
04-26-2013, 12:08 PM
aye Echo, been going to make me one of those for giggles just to see how it works out. I would think it would be great for one pot meals and such.
kyratshooter
04-26-2013, 12:13 PM
If you can fathom them, what would they be?
We've seen some very large scale power outages that were resolved in relatively short order. Weeks in some severe cases. Power companies, communications companies, petroleum companies, food companies, transportation companies, et. al., are going to do their very best to get things back to normal as quickly as possible. They have money at stake.
Ever heard the term, "Let them eat cake!"?
What might the long term problem be, well lets see...
How about starting out on a new homestead with no money?
How about loss of job for a couple of years. Ensuing loss of home. Living out of your van down by the river? Moving into a shack that is unlivable and turing it into an almost comfortable home becuase it comes with the less than minimum wage job you were forced to take.
Perhaps there is a disconnection in your brain due to it never happening to you, therefore it will/should never happen to anyone, and if it does it is due to some personal shortcomming on their part.
Some of us have faced a reality that did not include help awaiting in the wings or folk that cared if we took another breath. Sometimes the world craps on you for years at a time!
We fought our way back, but somtimes it took years.
Do you think I learned to make an improvised barrel stove because I wanted to heat my home with an improvised barrel stove?
Hell no!
I did it because I was out of money and there was a cold snap comming and I had to have heat before my kids died!
That is also how I learned to wire houses, run plumbing, how much firewood it would take to see me through a winter, how to repair a chain saw, how to fix a 35 year old Chevy pickup so I could get to my minimum wage job.
I learned to rig solar, not because I wanted to sell excess power to the utilities, but because the only land I could afford had no access to power! I learned to build a water system from scratch, off a spring, for the same reason.
Long term solutions and needs do not always equate with TEOTWAWKI by your definition. Sometimes the end of the world is losing the good job, watching the wife and kids leave due to live with relitives, due to no fault of your own, and sinking into that ROTTW funk we face one at a time in this society rather than collectivly like happened in the last Great Depression.
My mother grew up in a shack on the roadside after my GF, a college educated man when there were few of those around, lost everything he had. A shack made of salvaged wood and straightened bent nails with salvaged metal roadsigns for a roof. My grandmother died in that shack of cold, hunger and untreated medical difficulties!
It took hime 20 years to recover from that, and emotionally, no one in the family ever got over it.
Sorry to burst your bubble Rick, but everyone, even in 2013, does not live in your bed of roses.
TEOTWAWKI happens! It happens every day.
You are simply sitting too close to the computer to see it.
Sorry. That's not what we were talking about but it was a fabulous story none the less.
Cast-Iron
04-26-2013, 01:05 PM
@KY Thanks for sharing that story. It happens all too often that we ignore the trials and tribulations of our neighbors. Some folks will never understand the hardships you described. Unfortunately, I believe too many will.
If you had actually read my posts you would have seen I was referring to the stone age. It's pretty well summarized in post 42 for you. And since the conversation was between Geek and I you might want to hold off chastising until you sober up or whatever has your knickers in a twist. A sharp tongue does not mean a keen mind. You might do well to remember that. Still, your story was nice, so very very nice.
Echo2
04-26-2013, 02:33 PM
Who had the sharp tongue?
Perhaps there is a disconnection in your brain due to it never happening to you, therefore it will/should never happen to anyone, and if it does it is due to some personal shortcomming on their part....Sorry to burst your bubble Rick, but everyone, even in 2013, does not live in your bed of roses.....You are simply sitting too close to the computer to see it.
Sorry, Echo but I took offense not only to his lecture but also to the fact that he thinks he knows anything about me, which he doesn't. I asked one man for his opinion and received an insensate response from someone else.
rebel
04-27-2013, 01:32 PM
A sharp tongue does not mean a keen mind. You might do well to remember that.
That would be a good line to use on the misses. NAH. LOL
kyratshooter
04-27-2013, 02:44 PM
If you had actually read my posts you would have seen I was referring to the stone age. It's pretty well summarized in post 42 for you. And since the conversation was between Geek and I you might want to hold off chastising until you sober up or whatever has your knickers in a twist. A sharp tongue does not mean a keen mind. You might do well to remember that. Still, your story was nice, so very very nice.
I am very glad you enjoyed the story of my Grandmother's death Rick.
It was not a story, it was an experience. I can take you to the place on Hwy 31W outside Nashville, TN where the event occurred in 1937. 30 years after the incident my Grandfather stood on that site and told me the story.
Like many other of the experiences of myself and my family, it might seem like fiction, but it was real. One of the reasons my family developed a very thick skin and a realization that the world was not all rosy and kind.
Even in 1937, at the height of the Depression, there were people that were not devastated by the failed economy. Many of them referred to the less lucky as failures, because tragedy had not affected them, so how could it be that bad out there.
The same thing is happening today. We are divided into various camps in this country, the ones that have been crapped on, the ones that are living in fear of being crapped on and the ones that get their entertainment from watching it.
Glad you can get so much entertainment value out of other peoples' misfortunes. That is why we plan these tragedies in our lives, we know you need the entertainment.
As for knowing you,,,I have been reading your posts for 4 years, agreeing with some, disagreeing with others and ignoring many of them to keep the peace, like everyone else around here.
We all know your views on TEOTWAWKI, and most of us share them in part. No there are no zombies and EMP is a far fetched possibility, and we are all more likely to die of flood fire or tornado than an invasion of rogue Syrian rebels.
That does not mean that individual tragedies of epic personal proportions do not strike individuals each and every day. Not all of those tragedies are ended in 2 weeks, 6 months or a year.
We also know that while you profess that nothing long term could possibly happen you still keep extensive supplies on hand of wide ranging nature.
I keep a year of preps, not because I expect TEOTWAWKI, but because I have seen times when I needed a year of food in reserve and did not have it.
As for your private conversation, most of us take those to PM since the open forum is here for all the world to see, and to comment on freely. I never noticed anyone taking the things I have posted as a private diary entry!
crashdive123
04-27-2013, 02:55 PM
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Forum%20Fun/TappingFoot-1.gif (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Forum%20Fun/TappingFoot-1.gif.html)
rebel
04-27-2013, 03:00 PM
I am very glad you enjoyed the story of my Grandmother's death Rick.
It was not a story, it was an experience. I can take you to the place on Hwy 31W outside Nashville, TN where the event occurred in 1937. 30 years after the incident my Grandfather stood on that site and told me the story.
Like many other of the experiences of myself and my family, it might seem like fiction, but it was real. One of the reasons my family developed a very thick skin and a realization that the world was not all rosy and kind.
Even in 1937, at the height of the Depression, there were people that were not devastated by the failed economy. Many of them referred to the less lucky as failures, because tragedy had not affected them, so how could it be that bad out there.
The same thing is happening today. We are divided into various camps in this country, the ones that have been crapped on, the ones that are living in fear of being crapped on and the ones that get their entertainment from watching it.
Glad you can get so much entertainment value out of other peoples' misfortunes. That is why we plan these tragedies in our lives, we know you need the entertainment.
As for knowing you,,,I have been reading your posts for 4 years, agreeing with some, disagreeing with others and ignoring many of them to keep the peace, like everyone else around here.
We all know your views on TEOTWAWKI, and most of us share them in part. No there are no zombies and EMP is a far fetched possibility, and we are all more likely to die of flood fire or tornado than an invasion of rogue Syrian rebels.
That does not mean that individual tragedies of epic personal proportions do not strike individuals each and every day. Not all of those tragedies are ended in 2 weeks, 6 months or a year.
We also know that while you profess that nothing long term could possibly happen you still keep extensive supplies on hand of wide ranging nature.
I keep a year of preps, not because I expect TEOTWAWKI, but because I have seen times when I needed a year of food in reserve and did not have it.
As for your private conversation, most of us take those to PM since the open forum is here for all the world to see, and to comment on freely. I never noticed anyone taking the things I have posted as a private diary entry!
Is there anything we can do to help?
Edit: I heard a sermon a few weeks ago. The preacher talked about things happening for a reason. Perhaps, you GF's experience prepared you and some of us.
As for Rick, he's a good guy.
Davidlastink
04-27-2013, 04:05 PM
So any one ever look into methane as an easy to make fuel? I make it all the time.. problem is how to bottle my farts!
If you can fathom them, what would they be?
We've seen some very large scale power outages that were resolved in relatively short order. Weeks in some severe cases. Power companies, communications companies, petroleum companies, food companies, transportation companies, et. al., are going to do their very best to get things back to normal as quickly as possible. They have money at stake.
The example of an EMP is the most obvious one due to the assortment of novels based on that idea. However, I have concluded that regardless of the type of disaster our power grid is aging and becoming steadily more fragile. The government is seriously considering shutting off coal, which would take 15% of the generating capacity offline. Toss in another Hurricane Sandy circa 2016 and we could be faced with a northeast blackout lasting longer than anything we have seen to date, particularly if it takes out a couple of the local nuclear plants. An earthquake in a highly populated area, e.g. Manhattan could be another mess. After 9/11 the idea of a dirty bomb in Manhattan seems easy enough to imagine.
Fukushima took out a wide area without being a countrywide or worldwide apocalypse and the idea of a similarly scaled disaster somewhere in the US is easy enough to imagine. Then of course there is the flu, . . .
I hate to be depressing with this stuff, but from my experience when things go really wrong is when multiple things go wrong at the same time. I read a novel recently based on the idea of two Hurricanes hitting a few weeks apart. The two Hurricanes were sort of like Katrina and Sandy happening in the same season and they manage to severely damage refineries on both the Gulf Coast and the East Coast. Then a war in the middle east hits supply coming from there. The loss of so much energy infrastructure all at once results in a Depression like economic collapse.
Maybe after being in the WTC on 9/11 my imagination has become overactive but I think the power grid is not being maintained or protected and it is vulnerable and I don't think I am adequately prepared.
hunter63
04-27-2013, 06:31 PM
If it's a true TEOTWAWKI, I'm thinking more than just fuel will be at a premium...parts, batteries, tires, screws/bolts, and lubrication is also nessessary. as well as parts for lanterns, stoves....clothing, shoes boots...etc...... all the stuff you go to the store for.
If it's a true TEOTWAWKI, I'm thinking more than just fuel will be at a premium...parts, batteries, tires, screws/bolts, and lubrication is also nessessary. as well as parts for lanterns, stoves....clothing, shoes boots...etc...... all the stuff you go to the store for.
Too true, but the OP brought up fuel. We could easily have a thread on each of the items you mention and on some of them I think we have.
KY - I'll leave you with the words of Anthony D'Angelo. "If you have time to whine and complain about something then you have the time to do something about it." So go do something about it besides whine at me.
Geek - I don't know if I'd agree that the grid is becoming more fragile. That might be true in some areas. The companies I'm familiar with have done a pretty admirable job of upgrading lines and sub-stations. Around here a good portion of that has been growth of infrastructure and locally we've been converting to wind power. I have a nephew that has spent a lot of years working in the switch centers for the national grid and he seems to have a pretty high opinion of the grid overall. Certainly there are security vulnerabilities there. As I say, that could be true in some places.
In any case, all the items you mentioned are short term events I think. Something less than a few weeks recovery time. Except for pandemic. That one is fairly high on my list. I just don't think any of them take us back to the stone age. All are recoverable. The area we seem to be the most vulnerable, in my opinion, is refinery capacity. Hopefully, we can get a national energy policy on the board and start changing how we handle crude and national gas.
All in all, you made to very good points.
hunter63
04-28-2013, 10:29 AM
Too true, but the OP brought up fuel. We could easily have a thread on each of the items you mention and on some of them I think we have.
Granted, didn't mean to derail the OP....just the fact that it took me some time and trip to the spark plug store yesterday, just to get my mower running....plenty of fuel , fresh at that, reminded me of a balanced approach.
Davidlastink
04-30-2013, 07:50 PM
I might have to get me a new mower myself the one I have might just be turned into a mulcher.
As far as the methane goes I was half serious there.
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yellowcab
10-10-2025, 06:55 PM
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yellowcab
12-23-2025, 12:43 PM
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yellowcab
12-23-2025, 12:44 PM
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yellowcab
03-22-2026, 06:25 PM
Торч (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/10952)144.8 (http://cottagenet.ru)Отре (http://eyesvision.ru)When (http://eyesvisions.com)авто (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1466023)Анис (http://filmzones.ru/t/1438624)инст (http://gadwall.ru/t/1671838)Сенд (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1369365)Иллю (http://gageboard.ru/t/1343111)Alan (http://gagrule.ru/t/1232329)Торг (http://gallduct.ru/t/1651572)Ocea (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1663353)пира (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1685598)Pain (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1703651)Begi (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1713338)
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yellowcab
03-22-2026, 06:26 PM
Бого (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031046)Teka (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451592)Fros (http://layabout.ru/shop/451456)язык (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/101346)отли (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/104976)Crow (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/444556)9902 (http://leaveword.ru/shop/156776)0400 (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/145292)Blue (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/302358)Объе (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/154833)1366 (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/109203)*осс (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/268797)курс (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/159500)изда (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159529)AUDI (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613421)
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yellowcab
06-01-2026, 11:48 PM
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