I'm Ready for the Backlash on This One!

[Ken]

First of all, most of you know what I do for a living, and for those of you who don't, I practice law. Most of my practice is Criminal Defense and Constitutional Law. Therefore, it stands to reason that I do a lot of research and spend lots of time thinking about Constitutional Law and Criminal Justice. It also means I have really thick skin, so by all means feel free to disagree with me on this thread. Here it goes:

Once a sentence (including probation and parole) is served, I firmly believe that convicted felons should have the same Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms as anyone else.

I've taken this position for a number of reasons:

1. There is NOTHING in the language of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights that denies convicted felons any of the rights enumerated therein. The Constitution is supposed to protect EVERYONE. We find ourselves fighting the Second Amendment battle, in large part, because we've been letting others chip away at our rights so long as it hasn't really affected us personally in a significant way.

2. Many felonies do not involve violence of any type. Many misdemeanors do. Those of you who support denying felons the right to keep and bear arms should realize that expanding such a ban to those convicted of misdemeanors is really a small step in terms of legislation, and we've already established a precedent fot that type of legislation.

3. Now I realize that some of you may get all self-righteous on me and remind me that criminals should forfeit their rights. I have two responses for you. The first is that you show me where the Constitution provides for such a forfeiture of rights. The second may anger you more, but here it is: If I could watch a videotape of any of your lives at high speed, I will GUARANTEE YOU that I could identify a tremendous number of misdemeanors that each of you have been guilty of. And guess what - at least 95% of you have also committed more than a few felonies along the way. The fact is, there are so many laws on the books that you probably have no idea that you've even broken one, even if it's a felony. Heck, we've even elected several felons to the Office of President of the United States - it's just that they were never prosecuted for their crimes.

4. Every man and woman should have the right to defend themselves. The Second Amendment makes that pretty clear. Once a person has "paid their debt to society" they should regain the same rights that you and I have to protect ourselves and our families.

5. Surprise. Many convicted felons did not commit the crimes they were convicted of. Some cops lie on the stand, most witnesses lie or significantly embellish the facts on the stand, far too many defense lawyers really suck at their jobs, most prosecutors only care about statistics and regardless of the guilt or innocence of a defendant, judges (most of whom were once prosecutors) are far too often biased toward the prosecution, and many jurors have been waiting for years to convict someone, guilty or innocent, to "correct" the failings of a supposedly liberal criminal justice system.

6. The law provides a range of penalties and/or sentences for every crime on the books. Fines, community service, incarceration, probation, parole, even the death penalty. Increase the penalties if you choose to, but once those penalties have been satisfied, don't advocate depriving anyone of their Constitutional rights, because you just may unwittingly be destroying your own rights.

I have a lot more to say on this subject. But first, let the debate begin.........

[welderguy]

It is nice to think that once a person pays there debt to society, they should or will become productive members of society, Thats not always true, some Kids that get locked up for minor offenses come out worst then when they went in. I worked several facilities from release centers to Max security units, everyone in there is innocent. Just ask them !
I think there people that should be allowed all there rights back after doing there time, they would be the non violent offenders, and people with clean backgrounds up to the point of incarceration. It happens, people get the short end of the stick sometimes, but to allow all ex felons a right to bear arms I think would be a mistake.

[Cast-Iron]

I've felt that way for some time Ken. If a person's crime is so horrible that you can't imagine restoring their rights upon release, don't release them! Lock 'em away for good or send them off into the eternal hereafter. Once you've allowed any limitation on our "unconditional" rights, the precedent is there for the further deterioration of those rights until that protection is lost. Then, if it goes too far, history may have to repeat itself? IMHO, this is one gray area of the law that needs to remain black & white!

[ElevenBravo]

Mostly I believe a leopard cant change his spots, but your post gives food for thought...

EB

[Geek]

The part that rings with me is the fact that there are so many things that are considered felonies today. The book "Three Felonies a Day" comes immediately to mind.

Do I care if Martha Stewart owns a gun? Not really.

[Cast-Iron]

Another thought on this subject regarding the mentally incompetent: I understand there are individuals who lack the ability to distinguish wrong from right, yet they may still have the ability to load and fire a weapon. I don't believe that the same level of 2nd ammendmant protection should apply to folks who the courts have also held can't be held to the same standards of accountability. Another slippery slope! Maybe we were all wacky enough just once to be denied the right to bear arms? Who gets to decide?

[natertot]

I agree with forfeiture of the right with violent cases. That is why domestic violence is included, although not necessarily a felony.

[Ken]

I agree with forfeiture of the right with violent cases. That is why domestic violence is included, although not necessarily a felony.

I understand WHY you feel that way. However, forfeiture is NOT provided for in the Constitution. Justifying forfeiture in the name of "public safety" isn't very different than banning large capacity magazines from a Constitutional perspective.

[Ken]

Point to Ponder: Why do some people believe that they can justify depriving other people of their Constitutional Rights when they themselves cannot understand how others can justify depriving them of their own Constitutional rights?

The fact is, ANY denial of Constitutional rights, unless specifically allowed by the Constitution, IS A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT and only serves to open the door for a further erosion of our rights.

[natertot]

I understand WHY you feel that way. However, forfeiture is NOT provided for in the Constitution. Justifying forfeiture in the name of "public safety" isn't very different than banning large capacity magazines from a Constitutional perspective.

its very different. Those who have demonstrated acts violence lose the right whereas those who haven't demonstrated an act of violence lose their right.

[rebel]

You made a lot of good points. I agree about too many laws. Something else that has confused me is the variable punishment. As for reinstatement of rights after the "debt to society is paid", I don't know. Perhaps permanent consiquinces are a deterrent. I think most religions think so.

[Ken]

its very different. Those who have demonstrated acts violence lose the right whereas those who haven't demonstrated an act of violence lose their right.

Where in the Constitution is Congress or any state granted the authority to deny us our Constitutional rights in the first place?


Perhaps permanent consiquinces are a deterrent.

You may be correct, Reb. However, shouldn't we be intellectually honest enough to amend the Second Amendment accordingly? And if so, aren't we running the risk of a passing whole load of OTHER amendments that we may not be very happy with?

[crashdive123]

I've got no real big issue of individuals having all of their rights restored after they have "paid their debt". Where I do have an issue is with some of the sentencing structures or guidelines that are used.

[welderguy]

Regardless if an ex felon, has a right to own a firearm or not wont stop them from possibly committing another crime if they are intent on continuing there life as a felon. Im just not sure I would feel safe with some one having a right to own arms and have a large "ABT" tattoo across there chest or back.

[Ken]

I've got no real big issue of individuals having all of their rights restored after they have "paid their debt". Where I do have an issue is with some of the sentencing structures or guidelines that are used.

Boy, do I agree with that statement. Our system is totally out of whack in terms of sentencing and sentencing guidelines. Consider these facts:

1. The United States has the largest population of incarcerated people of any nation in the world.

2. The United States has a higher percentage of its population incarcerated than any other nation in the world.

3. The penalties handed out for bootlegging intellectual property are often greater than those handed out for rape of a child.

[hunter63]

This is a subject that has to do with laws that have been around for a while.....
If you don't like the law, work to get it changed...otherwise it's just a waste of time to express opinions.

That being said, I do believe laws like this are going to be used in an "end around " when it come to 2nd amendment rights, and the basic desisions on who can do what.

[crashdive123]

This is a subject that has to do with laws that have been around for a while.....
If you don't like the law, work to get it changed...otherwise it's just a waste of time to express opinions.

That being said, I do believe laws like this are going to be used in an "end around " when it come to 2nd amendment rights, and the basic desisions on who can do what.

That's already started. This mornings local new had a story out of some governmental institution that said - as many as 25% to 35% of Americans may be suffering from some sort of mental illness. I looked at Mrs. Crash and said........read......those are the first 25% to 35% of Americans that we will confiscate guns from.

[Ken]

So, 25% - 35%, huh? Do physical illnesses come next? That kinda' worries me, because about once a year, I get this tiny pimple on the left cheek of .... way at the very top of my left leg. Pimples are caused by trapped bacteria, and trapped bacteria is an infection. Infections are illnesses. So maybe they'll try to suspend my license whenever that pimple shows up.

[crashdive123]

You do realize that when 2D sees this and responds to your above post that I'll have to move his response right?

[Ken]

You do realize that when 2D sees this and responds to your above post that I'll have to move his response right?

Haven't you ever spread chum in the water?

[welderguy]

That's already started. This mornings local new had a story out of some governmental institution that said - as many as 25% to 35% of Americans may be suffering from some sort of mental illness. I looked at Mrs. Crash and said........read......those are the first 25% to 35% of Americans that we will confiscate guns from.

How did they come to this conclusion? Are these people that have been evaluated or just a general consensus?

[crashdive123]

How did they come to this conclusion? Are these people that have been evaluated or just a general consensus?

It's a government agency, so we're just supposed to believe them. They practice.........NEVER LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF AN AGENDA.

[welderguy]

It's a government agency, so we're just supposed to believe them. They practice.........NEVER LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF AN AGENDA.

Ah yes the famous Were from the government were here to help slogan at work. compiling data for the good of the world . well i feel better knowing that came from the government , now I know its TRUE? and will rest easy !

[welderguy]

And if no one reads the sarcasm in that last post and agrees with me I will crawl thru my computer and chock you.

[natertot]

Where in the Constitution is Congress or any state granted the authority to deny us our Constitutional rights in the first place?

The constitution doesn't say alot of things, and I see your point. As a lawyer, I am sure you spend alot of time in court. As a lawyer, I am sure you make a fair amount of money and as such I am sure you drive a rather nice car, have a rather nice home which contains a rather nice family. If you take a moment, however, and step out of your day in and day out routine and look beyond the over simplicity of rights, you may discover a new world. This is the world where felons get guns any way, hookers are on the corner, and sex offenders are looking at their eye candy. Work those second and third shifts in these areas as an officer and see what it is like to have guns pulled on you by felons. See what it is like to explain to a mother why her daughter has been raped by a sex offender because he "felt" like he shouldn't have to register because of his "rights". Or explain to a child why their mom will never come home because of the overdose of drugs a pimp gave her.

Granted, the criminal justice system has it's flaws. Alot of the laws we have are flawed as well. But when a person knows they lose their rights when a felony is committed and commit it anyway, I see that as their forfeiture of their rights and not something the gov'ment took away from them.

[natertot]

The fifth amendment: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

A person loses their gun rights, that is the deprived part. A person is charged with a crime, and convicted by a jury of peers, and then as the opportunity to file an appeal. That would be the due process part.

[2dumb2kwit]

Thinking about this for a minute, I am forced to conclude that the pen is NOT mightier than the sword. If it were, then we would be talking about felons losing their 1st amendment rights. Right?

Hey....do people who are convicted of inciting a riot lose their 1st amendment rights?

[Sarge47]

So, 25% - 35%, huh? Do physical illnesses come next? That kinda' worries me, because about once a year, I get this tiny pimple on the left cheek of .... way at the very top of my left leg. Pimples are caused by trapped bacteria, and trapped bacteria is an infection. Infections are illnesses. So maybe they'll try to suspend my license whenever that pimple shows up.

With you, Ken, that's called a "brain tumor.".....:lol:

[Sarge47]

My wife's middle sister was murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband by a blow to the head with a hammer, then thrown into a campfire. My ex-brother-in-law then plea-bargained a 20 year sentence to avoid the death penalty. Here in Illinois you get one day out for one day in for good behavior so he was actually in the joint for ten years and on parole for another ten. While he was inside he studied hard and got a Bachelor of arts degree. Also, some idiot female decided this wife-killer was quite a "catch" and married him. Today he is a free man and has been up before the judge a number of times for domestic abuse on wife #2. He keeps getting slaps on the wrist for this, and currently is whining because Illinois laws forbid him to buy or own a firearm. I think we should give him one. That way when he shoots somebody they can finish the job they should have done with him in the 1st place! Just my two pennies counselor. :angermanagement:

[rebel]

My wife's middle sister was murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband by a blow to the head with a hammer, then thrown into a campfire. My ex-brother-in-law then plea-bargained a 20 year sentence to avoid the death penalty. Here in Illinois you get one day out for one day in for good behavior so he was actually in the joint for ten years and on parole for another ten. While he was inside he studied hard and got a Bachelor of arts degree. Also, some idiot female decided this wife-killer was quite a "catch" and married him. Today he is a free man and has been up before the judge a number of times for domestic abuse on wife #2. He keeps getting slaps on the wrist for this, and currently is whining because Illinois laws forbid him to buy or own a firearm. I think we should give him one. That way when he shoots somebody they can finish the job they should have done with him in the 1st place! Just my two pennies counselor. :angermanagement:

C'mon Sarge. Judgement will come.

[Sarge47]

C'mon Sarge. Judgement will come.

Just sayin', I'm in agreement with Ken...for my own selfish reasons of course. When the homicide went down there was an infant daughter involved who now is grown, married, and has two kids of her own. The woman that married my former in-law had a 12 year-old son as well. For awhile, after he was out, my niece, then much younger, went to stay with her dad, but left after breaking his nose! That's gotta tell you something!

[Ken]

The constitution doesn't say alot of things, and I see your point. As a lawyer, I am sure you spend alot of time in court. As a lawyer, I am sure you make a fair amount of money and as such I am sure you drive a rather nice car, have a rather nice home which contains a rather nice family. If you take a moment, however, and step out of your day in and day out routine and look beyond the over simplicity of rights, you may discover a new world. This is the world where felons get guns any way, hookers are on the corner, and sex offenders are looking at their eye candy. Work those second and third shifts in these areas as an officer and see what it is like to have guns pulled on you by felons. See what it is like to explain to a mother why her daughter has been raped by a sex offender because he "felt" like he shouldn't have to register because of his "rights". Or explain to a child why their mom will never come home because of the overdose of drugs a pimp gave her.

Granted, the criminal justice system has it's flaws. Alot of the laws we have are flawed as well. But when a person knows they lose their rights when a felony is committed and commit it anyway, I see that as their forfeiture of their rights and not something the gov'ment took away from them.

(Chuckle) I worked on a loading dock for 10 years. I went to school AT NIGHT IN BOSTON and had more than a few experiences there with strangers who tried to take my property and cause me harm. I went to school for 9 YEARS and worked my ARSE off 60 hours a week to pay my tuition so that I wouldn't be buried in debt when I graduated. At the same time, I volunteered hundreds of hours of community service each year. One of my public service jobs was serving as a police commissioner. I paid my dues when I started my practice, working over 80 hours a week, for the first few years, often for less than minimum wage, and still managed to support my family. And BTW - my Dad and brother both retired from law enforcement careers.

As I stated earlier, I've practiced criminal and Constitutional law for almost 30 years. I've represented every nature of criminal defendant - from hard-core criminals to police officers to lawyers to doctors to laborers - against every type of criminal charge you can name, from double murders to shoplifting. I've lost close friends due to gun violence.

When you suggest that I step out of my day to day routine, please know that this IS my day to day routine.

I believe that I understand the criminal mindset as well as any other "expert" you can name.

But my point is this: I have represented the worst of the worst - the most violent and immoral that exist - and I fear each of them far less than I do my own government.

[Rick]

All things being equal your prima facie argument is sound. However, not only are sentencing guidelines askew so are our prisons. For the sake of inhumane treatment we have turned our prisons into country clubs; jail house politics aside. Instead of funding weight training, jogging tracks and basketball courts we should be maintaining our prisons on lockdown 23/7. I'd go for 24/7 but there is that inhumane thing. Instead of televisions, how about chain gangs? Instead of heart transplants how about tough @#it? Our recidivism rate for violent offenders is 60% +/- within 3 years of release according to the DOC. I certainly don't want those knuckleheads to have a weapon again.

When our court system finally pulls it's collective head out of it's collective hat and starts assigning real sentences and when our prison system is allowed to treat prisoners like the losers they are then we can start talking about restoring rights to those who have served out their time because they will never want to go back to such a he(( hole again. As it stands, many have it better inside than they do outside.

Did someone mention Lindsey Lohan? Why I outta.......

[Sarge47]

(Chuckle)I have represented the worst of the worst - the most violent and immoral that exist - and I fear each of them far less than I do my own government.

I still say that the lawyer in the movie "The Lincoln Lawyer reminds me of you!....:FRlol:

[Ken]

The fifth amendment: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

A person loses their gun rights, that is the deprived part. A person is charged with a crime, and convicted by a jury of peers, and then as the opportunity to file an appeal. That would be the due process part.

Life = Death Penalty
Liberty = Incarceration
Property = Fines, Confiscation, Eminent Domain

At least that's what they taught me in law school.........

Where's the part about being denied Constitutional rights?

[BENESSE]

+1 Rick!!!!!

[rebel]

Just sayin', I'm in agreement with Ken...for my own selfish reasons of course. When the homicide went down there was an infant daughter involved who now is grown, married, and has two kids of her own. The woman that married my former in-law had a 12 year-old son as well. For awhile, after he was out, my niece, then much younger, went to stay with her dad, but left after breaking his nose! That's gotta tell you something!

Sounds like my f'd up childhood.
A funny saying from Dolly Parton "get off the cross, we need the wood".

[huskymill]

question... do convicted fellons still have the right to vote? What other rights are denied to fellons? basically what i want to know is whether or not convicted fellons still hold the same citizen status as the rest of US citizens.

[Ken]

My wife's middle sister was murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband by a blow to the head with a hammer, then thrown into a campfire. My ex-brother-in-law then plea-bargained a 20 year sentence to avoid the death penalty. Here in Illinois you get one day out for one day in for good behavior so he was actually in the joint for ten years and on parole for another ten. While he was inside he studied hard and got a Bachelor of arts degree. Also, some idiot female decided this wife-killer was quite a "catch" and married him. Today he is a free man and has been up before the judge a number of times for domestic abuse on wife #2. He keeps getting slaps on the wrist for this, and currently is whining because Illinois laws forbid him to buy or own a firearm. I think we should give him one. That way when he shoots somebody they can finish the job they should have done with him in the 1st place! Just my two pennies counselor. :angermanagement:

I'm not inclined to give up my Constitutional rights in order to make life easier for lazy and/or incompetent prosecutors.

[BENESSE]

My wife's middle sister was murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband by a blow to the head with a hammer, then thrown into a campfire. My ex-brother-in-law then plea-bargained a 20 year sentence to avoid the death penalty. Here in Illinois you get one day out for one day in for good behavior so he was actually in the joint for ten years and on parole for another ten. While he was inside he studied hard and got a Bachelor of arts degree. Also, some idiot female decided this wife-killer was quite a "catch" and married him. Today he is a free man and has been up before the judge a number of times for domestic abuse on wife #2. He keeps getting slaps on the wrist for this, and currently is whining because Illinois laws forbid him to buy or own a firearm. I think we should give him one. That way when he shoots somebody they can finish the job they should have done with him in the 1st place! Just my two pennies counselor. :angermanagement:

So someone has to be deprived of their right to LIFE so the scumbuckett can have his right to a gun?!

[Sarge47]

I'm not inclined to give up my Constitutional rights in order to make life easier for lazy and/or incompetent prosecutors.I understand, now go get the Constitution out of the Executive washroom in the White House...what's left of it anyway, and quit giving them ideas.....:FRlol:

[natertot]

Life = Death Penalty
Liberty = Incarceration
Property = Fines, Confiscation, Eminent Domain

At least that's what they taught me in law school.........

Where's the part about being denied Constitutional rights?

I highlighted it for you.

[Rick]

Some defendants incur undo mental anguish.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/09/04/160554456/state-must-grant-murder-convict-a-sex-change-operation-judge-rules

To be fair this was reversed on appeal today. Still......

[Sarge47]

I'm recusing myself from the jury on Ken's point of the Constitution and the arming of violent felons..as well as non-violent ones...due to my bias based on family history. However I may still question some points on his argument. I'll probably lose though, he does this for a living.....:hammer:

[crashdive123]

This one was in the news today too.

Did he set the fire when he was 16? We may never know, but in order to get out of jail after 42 years he has to plead no contest. http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20130402/US-Tucson-Hotel-Fire/?

[Rick]

And agree not to seek restitution for the years he spent in prison. Is our prison system great or what?

[Ken]

I highlighted it for you.

That isn't what the word "confiscation" means.

[natertot]

That isn't what the word "confiscation" means.

Taken from Wikipedia

Confiscation, from the Latin confiscatio 'joining to the fiscus, i.e. transfer to the treasury' is a legal seizure without compensation by a government or other public authority. The word is also used, popularly, of spoliation under legal forms, or of any seizure of property without adequate compensation.

Seems like it fits just fine.

[Ken]

Taken from Wikipedia

Confiscation, from the Latin confiscatio 'joining to the fiscus, i.e. transfer to the treasury' is a legal seizure without compensation by a government or other public authority. The word is also used, popularly, of spoliation under legal forms, or of any seizure of property without adequate compensation.

Seems like it fits just fine.

nater, you can't "confiscate" someone's rights. That's what we're talking about - Second Amendment rights. Tell ya' what -Ignore Wikipedia and come over to my office. I have a few thousand law books you're welcome to read - about 100 of them are exclusively about Constitutional law. You should enjoy reading all of them. I did. Or you can take the next class in Constitutional Law that I teach. Your choice. :)

[natertot]

nater, you can't "confiscate" someone's rights. That's what we're talking about - Second Amendment rights. Tell ya' what -Ignore Wikipedia and come over to my office. I have a few thousand law books you're welcome to read - about 100 of them are exclusively about Constitutional law. You should enjoy reading all of them. I did. Or you can take the next class in Constitutional Law that I teach. Your choice. :)

I'm not convinced. Has there been any case law on this aspect? Also, doesn't the GCA of 1968 provide a way to get gun rights restored?

[Winter]

Aren't our liberties our rights? Wouldn't losing our right to bear arms be a loss of liberty?

I'm with nater on this.


The 13th amendment demonstrates you can lose rights and actually be enslaved as punishment for a crime.

[welderguy]

Aren't our liberties our rights? Wouldn't losing our right to bear arms be a loss of liberty?

I'm with nater on this.


The 13th amendment demonstrates you can lose rights and actually be enslaved as punishment for a crime.

That is true, but what ken is getting at is , after your punishment is up , your rights to own a firearm should be restored.

[natertot]

That is true, but what ken is getting at is , after your punishment is up , your rights to own a firearm should be restored.

If you get convicted of a felony, a part of the punishment is a life ban of guns. The punishment is up at death unless the right has been otherwise restored.

[Ken]

I'm not convinced. Has there been any case law on this aspect? Also, doesn't the GCA of 1968 provide a way to get gun rights restored?

Do you seriously want to argue this point further? By definition, the word "confiscation" applies to a tangible item. You have to understand the definition of a word before you debate its legal application.

Until you do, I may as well try to describe the unique smell of the number purple.

[Ken]

Aren't our liberties our rights? Wouldn't losing our right to bear arms be a loss of liberty?

I'm with nater on this.


The 13th amendment demonstrates you can lose rights and actually be enslaved as punishment for a crime.

Don't confuse the word "liberty" with the word "rights." Liberty means free movement - the opposite of incarceration. Rights are activities a person may otherwise engage in.

[natertot]

Do you seriously want to argue this point further? By definition, the word "confiscation" applies to a tangible item. You have to understand the definition of a word before you debate its legal application.

Until you do, I may as well try to describe the unique smell of the number purple.
I am not arguing, I am discussing. So I take it that there is no case law? I also Assume that there is no provision in the GCA of 1968 to allow felons to get their gun rights restored?

[welderguy]

Do you seriously want to argue this point further? By definition, the word "confiscation" applies to a tangible item. You have to understand the definition of a word before you debate its legal application.

Until you do, I may as well try to describe the unique smell of the number purple.

OOHHHH I wanna hear this one? describe away.

[Ken]

If you get convicted of a felony, a part of the punishment is a life ban of guns. The punishment is up at death unless the right has been otherwise restored.

And where in the Constitution does it state that you lose your Constitutional Rights upon conviction of a felony?

[natertot]

Don't confuse the word "liberty" with the word "rights." Liberty means free movement - the opposite of incarceration. Rights are activities a person may otherwise engage in.

So a person incarcerated for a misdemeanor cannot be deprived of his second amendment rights?

[Ken]

I am not arguing, I am discussing. So I take it that there is no case law? I also Assume that there is no provision in the GCA of 1968 to allow felons to get their gun rights restored?

You made my point. In law, the word "argue" refers to a debate such as this. Words that have one meaning in the common vernacular may have an entirely different meaning in law. We were "discussing" the word confiscate. Look it up in Black's Law Dictionary.

Of course there is case law and yes, there are povisions to restore "gun rights." Regardless of both, my objection is to the manner in which government has been chipping away at ALL of our rights by way of legislation and judicial opinion.

[Ken]

So a person incarcerated for a misdemeanor cannot be deprived of his second amendment rights?

Did you see that word O T H E R W I S E in my post?

[natertot]

You made my point. In law, the word "argue" refers to a debate such as this. Words that have one meaning in the common vernacular may have an entirely different meaning in law. We were "discussing" the word confiscate. Look it up in Black's Law Dictionary.

Of course there is case law and yes, there are povisions to restore "gun rights." Regardless of both, my objection is to the manner in which government has been chipping away at ALL of our rights by way of legislation and judicial opinion.

In law, your definition is correct, however, this is a forum so your definition of argue is incorrect for this application.

So felons can get the rights restored......which seems reasonable, and occurs after the rest of the sentence is up. Legislatures make the law, LE enforces the law and judges inturpret the law.

[natertot]

Did you see that word O T H E R W I S E in my post?

Oops, my fault. :whistling:

[Ken]

So felons can get the rights restored......which seems reasonable, and occurs after the rest of the sentence is up. Legislatures make the law, LE enforces the law and judges inturpret the law.

You have managed to entirely miss my point. It should not be up to ANY HUMAN AUTHORITY - legislatures, executive branches, or the judiciary to "restore" our rights. Do you homework. I mean REALLY do your homework. We do NOT derive our rights from the Constitution. The founders themselves noted that the Bill of Rights is a RESTATEMENT of the natural rights that men derived from God.

[natertot]

You have managed to entirely miss my point. It should not be up to ANY HUMAN AUTHORITY - legislatures, executive branches, or the judiciary to "restore" our rights. Do you homework. I mean REALLY do your homework. We do NOT derive our rights from the Constitution. The founders themselves noted that the Bill of Rights is a RESTATEMENT of the natural rights that men derived from God.

So it is okay for the punishment of a crime to include the death sentence (the life right which I am pretty certain God gave), but not take away gun rights?

[Rick]

My Bill of Rights comes from wife but I'm going out on a limb and say it's different that what you guys are talking about. Mine are real. Limited...but real. Short list, too.

[Ken]

So it is okay for the punishment of a crime to include the death sentence (the life right which I am pretty certain God gave), but not take away gun rights?

The answer is "YES" according to BOTH the Constitution AND the Bible. Read the Fifth Amendment and Romans 13.

[Ken]

My Bill of Rights comes from wife but I'm going out on a limb and say it's different that what you guys are talking about. Mine are real. Limited...but real. Short list, too.

I don't want to hear from you for the rest of the night. I WAITED at Taco Bell and you never showed up. So now I'm stuffing my face with Pizza Hut Buffalo Wings. My keyboard is a mess.

[natertot]

The answer is "YES" according to BOTH the Constitution AND the Bible. Read the Fifth Amendment and Romans 13.

So according to the Constitution, gun rights are more important than life because the Constitution says the govment can take your life, but not your guns?

[Ken]

So according to the Constitution, gun rights are more important than life because the Constitution says the govment can take your life, but not your guns?

Yep. The Constitution is pretty clear on both issues. The thing is, it's highly likely that a lot more lives would be taken - BUT IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION - if it wasn't for the Second Amendment.

[Rick]

I said ish. It's 10:25 and I'm here. You better hurry 'cause I'm getting weird looks. You said no hong, remember?

[natertot]

Yep. The Constitution is pretty clear on both issues. The thing is, it's highly likely that a lot more lives would be taken - BUT IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION - if it wasn't for the Second Amendment.

I find it interesting that the founding fathers would allow the govment to take away your life, but not your firearms.

[Ken]

So according to the Constitution, gun rights are more important than life because the Constitution says the govment can take your life, but not your guns?

One last thing.... The Constitution makes specific reference to depriving an individual of his/her life. It makes no such reference to depriving a person of the right to keep and bear arms. In fact, it specifically states that that right shall NOT be infringed.

[natertot]

One last thing.... The Constitution makes specific reference to depriving an individual of his/her life. It makes no such reference to depriving a person of the right to keep and bear arms. In fact, it specifically states that that right shall NOT be infringed.

So when did the first laws come into effect that banned guns from criminals? Also, did felons or an equivelant own guns in the last couple of decades of the 18th century?

[welderguy]

So when did the first laws come into effect that banned guns from criminals? Also, did felons or an equivelant own guns in the last couple of decades of the 18th century?

The Gun Control Act signed by President Johnson on October 22, 1968, was an omnibus measure reflecting a variety of congressional purposes. [Page 149] Included in the Act were amendments to the National Firearms Act of 1934, extending its coverage and relatively prohibitive tax to "destructive devices" (bombs, hand grenades, land mines, and similar mechanisms) and altering the registration provisions of the N.F.A. to rescue its registration requirement from a successful 1968 constitutional challenge.[99] The Act also mandated additional penalties for persons convicted of committing federal crimes with firearms.[100] But the major objectives of the Act were three:

(1) Eliminating the interstate traffic in firearms and ammunition that had previously frustrated state and local efforts to license, register, or restrict ownership of guns.

(2) Denying access to firearms to certain congressionally defined groups, including minors, convicted felons, and persons who had been adjudicated as mental defectives or committed to mental institutions.

(3) Ending the importation of all surplus military firearms and all other guns unless certified by the Secretary of the Treasury as "particularly suitable for ... sporting purposes."[101]

The centerpiece of the new regulatory scheme was the ban on interstate shipments to or from persons who do not possess federal licenses as dealers, manufacturers, importers or collectors, coupled with the declaration that it was unlawful for any person other than a federal-license holder to engage in the business of manufacturing or dealing in firearms, whether or not such a business involves interstate commerce.[102] The Act thus granted federal licensees a monopoly on interstate transactions and required a federal license to engage in any but isolated intrastate transactions.

While private citizens were to be excluded from commerce in guns, federally licensed dealers were to be much more strenuously regulated. The fees for all federal licenses were increased (the dealer license from $1 to $10),[103] minimum standards for licensees were set,[104] and the Secretary of the Treasury was given broad powers to establish mechanisms for regulating licensed manufacturers and dealers.[105]

[Ken]

So when did the first laws come into effect that banned guns from criminals? Also, did felons or an equivelant own guns in the last couple of decades of the 18th century?

The first gun ban laws came into effect primarily to prevent freed slaves from owning firearms. The NRA was formed by members of the clergy primarily to train blacks in the use of firearms to protect their families after the Civil War. Betcha' the guy in the White House won't tell you that!

[welderguy]

It has also been documented that in the mid 1800's inmates released from prison in Texas were given , cloths, 5 dollars and a side arm and six bullets.

[Ken]

It has also been documented that in the mid 1800's inmates released from prison in Texas were given , cloths, 5 dollars and a side arm and six bullets.

True. Even the felons.

[welderguy]

True. Even the felons.

Yep didnt matter what your crime was, they all were released and given the same upon exit.

[natertot]

Good stuff. If the gov'tment can take away gun rights, then why are minors also prohibited? In the 18th century, I know the militia contained minors as young as 12, but usually required those 16 and older.

[Ken]

Yep didnt matter what your crime was, they all were released and given the same upon exit.

If not, men who HAD PAID THEIR DEBT TO SOCIETY would be defenseless against the violent predators of the world. That's pretty much the same as it is today.

[Ken]

Good stuff. If the gov'tment can take away gun rights, then why are minors also prohibited? In the 18th century, I know the militia contained minors as young as 12, but usually required those 16 and older.

Minors are NOT necessarily prohibited from gun ownership.

[natertot]

Minors are NOT necessarily prohibited from gun ownership.

Can you elaborate?

[Ken]

Can you elaborate?

Sure. Many states allow minors to own firearms, get hunting licenses, etc. Concealed carry generally kicks in by age 21, generally considered the age of majority by most states. Some states recognize lower ages.

[natertot]

Sure. Many states allow minors to own firearms, get hunting licenses, etc. Concealed carry generally kicks in by age 21, generally considered the age of majority by most states. Some states recognize lower ages.

I know that states allow minors to use firearms, but not owning. Federal Law prohibits minors from purchasing them.

[welderguy]

I know that states allow minors to use firearms, but not owning. Federal Law prohibits minors from purchasing them.

!8 to buy a rifle, 16 to legally posses said weapon, 21 to buy a hand gun , 18 to legally posses said hand gun. Or thats the way it reads for texas.

[kyratshooter]

"Good men must not obey the law too well."

Ralph Waldo Emerson

[natertot]

!8 to buy a rifle, 16 to legally posses said weapon, 21 to buy a hand gun , 18 to legally posses said hand gun. Or thats the way it reads for texas.

Correct, Possess, not own and possession must include parental/gaurdian consent.

[Sarge47]

Correct, Possess, not own and possession must include parental/gaurdian consent.

Sorry, natertot, but Webster's disagrees with you, look at 1 a :

pos·sess

transitive verb \pə-ˈzes also -ˈses\




Definition of POSSESS

1
a : to have and hold as property (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/property) : own (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/own)
b : to have as an attribute (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attribute[1]), knowledge, or skill

2
a : to seize and take control of : take into one's possession (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possession)
b : to enter into and control firmly : dominate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate) <waspossessed by demons>
c : to bring or cause to fall under the influence, domination, or control of some emotional or intellectual response or reaction <melancholy possesses her>

3
a obsolete : to instate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/instate) as owner
b : to make the owner or holder —used in passive construction to indicate simple possession <possessed of riches> <possessed of knowledge and experience>
— pos·ses·sor noun

Examples of POSSESS



nations that possess nuclear weapons
The defendant was charged with possessing cocaine.
The ruby was once possessed by an ancient queen.
He dreams of someday possessing great wealth.
He possesses a keen wit.
The drug possesses the potential to suppress tumors.
Do dolphins possess the ability to use language?
What would possess seemingly sane people to treat concrete walls like trampolines? —Alice Park, Time, 16 Apr. 2007

(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possess)

[Winter]

And where in the Constitution does it state that you lose your Constitutional Rights upon conviction of a felony?
The 13th Amendment.

[Winter]

Ken, you know these people. What do you think about them being legally armed.

[welderguy]

The 13th Amendment.

Winter would you mind quoting that passage in the 13th amendment please, I cant recall seeing that in there.

[Winter]

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


That says you can be forced into slavery upon conviction.

[welderguy]

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


That says you can be forced into slavery upon conviction.

Correct but that isnt the same as losing your constitutional rights after serving said conviction, that is what Ken is getting at.

[Wildthang]

Well I'm not a lawyer, and there are a lot of things about the law I do not undestand. But my opinion is that criminals have too many rights, there is not enough severe punishment handed out in out judishal system, and the criminals know this too well.
In other countrys a criminal loses a hand, gets stoned, gets hanged, or excecuted very quickly for certain crimes, but here it is 10 years worth of trials, then you go to a country club prison. So I am not sure I agree with the constitution on this subject. If criminals had to pay and pay hard for their crimes, they may think twice before they commit crimes!
This day and age the criminals have more rights than the victims:angry:

[natertot]

I believe a supreme court justice once said that a persons right to swing their fist ends when it comes in contact with my nose. Using that logic, a persons right to a gun ends the moment his violent crime began.

[Ken]

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


That says you can be forced into slavery upon conviction.


Correct but that isnt the same as losing your constitutional rights after serving said conviction, that is what Ken is getting at.

Correct, Welderguy.

[Ken]

Ken, you know these people. What do you think about them being legally armed.

Winter, who are the people you're referring to?

[Wildthang]

Don't get me wrong, the constitution is a sacred document to the American people, but after all it was written during an era when you could shoot somebody for stealing your horse or chickens, and that was it, game over and the criminal was paid for and the victim moved on.
Times are much different now because if you shot a horse thief, you would go to prison for at least 10 years! I honestly think hard core criminals should have no rights except to work, live, and stay out of jail if they possibly can. In the old days they would have either got away with their crimes, or they would have died simple as that.
In this era, crime has gone to almost scientific levels and many more people are criminals due to the population explosion, so to me, that changes the original intent of the constitution to some extent. People rarely can protect themselves these days without becoming a criminal themselves and that is really messed up. So if we truly enforce the constitution for the criminals rights, so should we enforce it for honest citizens as well.

[Ken]

Don't get me wrong, the constitution is a sacred document to the American people, but after all it was written during an era when you could shoot somebody for stealing your horse or chickens, and that was it, game over and the criminal was paid for and the victim moved on.
Times are much different now because if you shot a horse thief, you would go to prison for at least 10 years! I honestly think hard core criminals should have no rights except to work, live, and stay out of jail if they possibly can. In the old days they would have either got away with their crimes, or they would have died simple as that.
In this era, crime has gone to almost scientific levels and many more people are criminals due to the population explosion, so to me, that changes the original intent of the constitution to some extent. People rarely can protect themselves these days without becoming a criminal themselves and that is really messed up. So if we truly enforce the constitution for the criminals rights, so should we enforce it for honest citizens as well.

We are supposedly a kinder and more gentle nation today. Laws now discourage "self help" and "self defense" in favor of a wholly flawed criminal justice system.

[Wildthang]

We are supposedly a kinder and more gentle nation today. Laws now discourage "self help" and "self defense" in favor of a wholly flawed criminal justice system.

So there you go, we have changed the entire philosophy of what citizens can do to basically protect themselves, and that is not totally in agreement with the constitution. So it seems society has in some ways, outgrown the constitution, sad but true.
Now, because of the anti gun lobbyists, and basically self serving government we have now, rewriting the constitution would be a very dangerous affair for American citizens, but in actuallity, it should be rewritten to take into account the way society has changed since it was created.
So here we are with an outdated document that needs to be revised in some ways to take into account the things that have changed, and we have nobody with the honesty or caring for the American people that could be trusted to perform such a monumentous task, and get it right the first time.
We have a real conundrum here don't we!

[Ken]

So there you go, we have changed the entire philosophy of what citizens can do to basically protect themselves, and that is not totally in agreement with the constitution. So it seems society has in some ways, outgrown the constitution, sad but true.
Now, because of the anti gun lobbyists, and basically self serving government we have now, rewriting the constitution would be a very dangerous affair for American citizens, but in actuallity, it should be rewritten to take into account the way society has changed since it was created.
So here we are with an outdated document that needs to be revised in some ways to take into account the things that have changed, and we have nobody with the honesty or caring for the American people that could be trusted to perform such a monumentous task, and get it right the first time.
We have a real conundrum here don't we!

We really don't need to revise the Constitution. We need to adhere to it.

[cowgirlup]

I think there people that should be allowed all there rights back after doing there time, they would be the non violent offenders, and people with clean backgrounds up to the point of incarceration. It happens, people get the short end of the stick sometimes, but to allow all ex felons a right to bear arms I think would be a mistake.

+1 Although any ex felon who wanted to continue down a bad road will get a gun if they want one. I think the laws are too broad.
Condensed version of a story:

I worked with a guy who was with a friend that sold pot when he was making a sale. He did know the friend was making the sale. It was a set up. Both go to jail and now have felony convictions for 2lbs of pot. This guy had a clean record and was hard working with a good job. The company has a strict policy of not hiring convicted felons so he couldn't get his job back. etc.. He had a clean record before that.

Granted he made a stupid decision but it seems like he will be paying for that the rest of his life with a bunch of restrictions and loss of basic rights.

[Winter]

Winter, who are the people you're referring to?

Earlier you stated you have worked for the scum of the earth. Are you supporting the idea that they be allowed to own firearms once they get out?

I agree that the constitution should be adhered to.

[welderguy]

Winter, Yes he is saying just that!

[Wildthang]

If the constitution is so simple to adhere to, then why are they always trying to overide it and change it? It was written during a much simpler time, with a very low population of simple people, so something must need to be changed.
I agree that the ideology of the constituion is magnificent, but can modern society really live by those rules as complex as the world is today? Or a more important question is will the government let us live by those rules? If the answer is no, then obviously it needs to be revised if we only had competant people to revise it.
I only wish we could live stricly by the constitution, and we could always adhere to it, but something tells me it won't happen!

[BENESSE]

We really don't need to revise the Constitution. We need to adhere to it.

I thought that's what the amendments were.
Hey, maybe we need more.

[Wildthang]

I thought that's what the amendments were.
Hey, maybe we need more.

Thats kind of what i'm saying Nessie, maybe it is outdated, so why don't we just rewrite it to fit todays society, if we only had somebody smart enough to do it!

[welderguy]

Thats kind of what i'm saying Nessie, maybe it is outdated, so why don't we just rewrite it to fit todays society, if we only had somebody smart enough to do it!

Rewrite what? the amendments or the Constitution?

[BENESSE]

Rewrite what? the amendments or the Constitution?

I would think revise some of the existing amendments.
No need to reinvent the wheel but we've got to address the new realities. If we don't, we'll be no better than some Middle Eastern countries who are still practicing their centuries old laws.

[welderguy]

I would think revise some of the existing amendments.
No need to reinvent the wheel but we've got to address the new realities. If we don't, we'll be no better than some Middle Eastern countries who are still practicing their centuries old laws.

The amendments yes I can see updating them or even outright changing some.

[kyratshooter]

I would think revise some of the existing amendments.
No need to reinvent the wheel but we've got to address the new realities. If we don't, we'll be no better than some Middle Eastern countries who are still practicing their centuries old laws.

So "right and wrong" and the natural laws of the rights of man change with the perception of the situation?

Are we revising the 13th, 14th, 19th or only the first 10 for the purposes of eliminating all these fusses over "rights".

If those first 10 had not been included in the Contitution, as the natural rights of all men, it would never have been ratified and we would not have this problem to argue.

[BENESSE]

So "right and wrong" and the natural laws of the rights of man change with the perception of the situation?

Are we revising the 13th, 14th, 19th or only the first 10 for the purposes of eliminating all these fusses over "rights".

If those first 10 had not been included in the Contitution, as the natural rights of all men, it would never have been ratified and we would not have this problem to argue.

Fine, then.
Let's add new amendments instead of bickering over the old ones.
Or did I miss something about an amendment limit in the constitution that we have now reached?

[kyratshooter]

No limit at all, we can even rescend ammendments, as we did the Volstead act.

All you need is agreement of 2/3 of both Houses of Congress and 3/4 of the States.

[BENESSE]

No limit at all, we can even rescend ammendments, as we did the Volstead act.

All you need is agreement of 2/3 of both Houses of Congress and 3/4 of the States.

So there you go. We got a democratic process in place and if there are enough votes on ANYthing (whether we like it or not) $hit's gonna change. What's all the angst about?

[natertot]

So there you go. We got a democratic process in place and if there are enough votes on ANYthing (whether we like it or not) $hit's gonna change. What's all the angst about?

the country is divided 50/50 and I refuse to forfeit my rights.

[welderguy]

So there you go. We got a democratic process in place and if there are enough votes on ANYthing (whether we like it or not) $hit's gonna change. What's all the angst about?

Ok now how do we go about getting an amendment started, I want an amendment that we can re vote for a president after 90 days if we dont like him. I also want an amendment that says no laws can be passed with out a vote by the people ever.

Oh wait those would be in th ebest interest of the nation so nope we couldnt have that could we.

[hunter63]

Don't need one...you can recall anything you have enough support....we do it in Wisconsin all the time.
It's a cottage industry making TV ads.

[Ken]

Here's the catch, everyone: Is anyone here actually satisfied with the clowns in both houses of Congress? How about our state legislatures, like those in Colorado, California, Illinois, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island - you know, the states voting to restrict our rights. THESE ARE THE ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT WILL BE VOTING ON ANY PROPOSED AMENDMENTS! The very same ones that didn't even bother to READ the NDAA, the Patriot Act, the Obamacare legislation.... And some of you would trust them to amend OUR CONSTITUTION???? :hammer:

[welderguy]

So if were such a democratic society , how come we ( the US) Dont get to vote on what goes into an amendment?


Could it be because our wonderful leaders of this free country , know exactly what we all need and decide what is best for us?

[BENESSE]

Here's the catch, everyone: Is anyone here actually satisfied with the clowns in both houses of Congress? How about our state legislatures, like those in Colorado, California, Illinois, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island - you know, the states voting to restrict our rights. THESE ARE THE ELECTED OFFICIALS THAT WILL BE VOTING ON ANY PROPOSED AMENDMENTS! The very same ones that didn't even bother to READ the NDAA, the Patriot Act, the Obamacare legislation.... And some of you would trust them to amend OUR CONSTITUTION???? :hammer:

Well, if you didn't elect them (and I didn't), the majority did. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. "We" just happened to be on a loosing streak and other than voting and letter writing, I don't see a way around the system that is still (IMHO) the best in the world.

[nell67]

the country is divided 50/50 and I refuse to forfeit my rights.WHO says the country is divided 50/50??? I have NEVER taken part in one of these so called polls and until I do,I will not beLIEve their scewed(?) poll numbers,they can post whatever numbers they want,it still doesn't make them accurate.

[welderguy]

Well, if you didn't elect them (and I didn't), the majority did. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. "We" just happened to be on a loosing streak and other than voting and letter writing, I don't see a way around the system that is still (IMHO) the best in the world.

What system would that be? because the way i'm seeing it our system is starting to fail!

[Ken]

Well, if you didn't elect them (and I didn't), the majority did. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. "We" just happened to be on a loosing streak and other than voting and letter writing, I don't see a way around the system that is still (IMHO) the best in the world.

A few observations.... We do NOT live in a democracy. Our form of government is a Constitutional Republic. The purpose of our Constitution and the cumbersome procedure for ratifying amendments is to protect people like us from the progressive wave we see taking place. The Constitution is DESIGNED TO PROTECT THE MINORITY from things such as the daily attacks we see on the Second Amendment.

Yesterday, I posted that we don't need any new amendments, we merely need to adhere to our Constitution (which includes all amendments thereto). Unfortunately, our state and federal governments are on a destructive path, and our courts are also creating new law by way of their decisions.

[natertot]

What system would that be? because the way i'm seeing it our system is starting to fail!

I believe we have a great system except that it lacks a way to hold the elected to a proper level of responsibility. The only way to change that is for the elected to pass laws holding them responsible with consequences. Of course that'll never happen.

[welderguy]

I believe we have a great system except that it lacks a way to hold the elected to a proper level of responsibility. The only way to change that is for the elected to pass laws holding them responsible with consequences. Of course that'll never happen.

I believe we HAD a great system, and its still there its just not being used the way it should at present time.

And why is it up to the elected to make and pass these laws, why cant the people decide what laws get passed .

[natertot]

I believe we HAD a great system, and its still there its just not being used the way it should at present time.

And why is it up to the elected to make and pass these laws, why cant the people decide what laws get passed .
We could, but the elected would have to pass that law and put themselves out of a job. I don't see that happening either.

[welderguy]

We could, but the elected would have to pass that law and put themselves out of a job. I don't see that happening either.

So in a nut shell , we only get to vote on what the elected feel we need to vote on. So were screwed and our system isnt what it was or is ment to be.

[Rick]

The elected are held to an accountable level every four years. We also remove from office those that are criminal. Lot's of examples in the state and federal arena for that. All the way to Vice President (Agnew) and President (Nixon).

http://articles.kwch.com/2012-06-01/new-law_31966095

[natertot]

The elected are held to an accountable level every four years. We also remove from office those that are criminal. Lot's of examples in the state and federal arena for that. All the way to Vice President (Agnew) and President (Nixon).

http://articles.kwch.com/2012-06-01/new-law_31966095

True, but elected official does a turd move on day one and your still stuck with him/her for the next four years......and then you replace them with more of the same.

Congress gets to chose their own pay increases........isn't that nice? Congress can buy and sell stocks with insider knowledge whereas the public would get hard time for. In fact, congress can make laws to affect stocks. Nothing you can do except vote them out......then they get replaced with more of the same.

It irritates me that elected officials can place themselves above the laws they make.

[natertot]

So in a nut shell , we only get to vote on what the elected feel we need to vote on. So were screwed and our system isnt what it was or is ment to be.

In a nut shell.

[welderguy]

In a nut shell.

Is that a question or an affirmation ?

[natertot]

Affirmation

[Ken]

We also remove from office those that are criminal.

Well, what are we waiting for?

[welderguy]

Ok just checking LOL!!

[natertot]

Well, what are we waiting for?

The next election I guess........

[welderguy]

Well, what are we waiting for?

Congress to pass a law saying we can make a law to remove them from office, after we pass a law making it legal to pass these types of laws.

[natertot]

Congress to pass a law saying we can make a law to remove them from office, after we pass a law making it legal to pass these types of laws.

In other words, the seven horsemen of the apocalypse. :knight:

[welderguy]

In other words, the seven horsemen of the apocalypse. :knight:

Yeah kinda like that!

[letslearntogether47]

Well, what are we waiting for?

This would be possible.But in some states,like ours,some will give up liberty for a temporary illustion of safety.

[BENESSE]

Well, what are we waiting for?

Take them to court and prove your case, counselor.

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Силу (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/676085)ра�� (http://habituate.ru/t/759872)�ерт (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/357767)Медв (http://hackworker.ru/t/682667)Иллю (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/749939)меди (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/676532)Hein (http://hailsquall.ru/t/196257)�ерт (http://hairysphere.ru/t/473207)Yell (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561546)Timo (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562522)Pale (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/562668)Jera (http://haltstate.ru/t/473723)Will (http://handcoding.ru/t/660990)Bill (http://handportedhead.ru/t/899892)�ерт (http://handradar.ru/t/561969)
Фили (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/174610)Wilh (http://hangonpart.ru/t/492404)Phil (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557161)Кре� (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/396735)Flow (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566325)Trig (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/566790)Chan (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567422)Curr (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/141188)dark (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/601475)Холо (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/655346)Flem (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/232477)Собо (http://headregulator.ru/t/497611)Gunt (http://heartofgold.ru/t/790893)Geza (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/396344)Шмак (http://heatinggas.ru/t/829990)
Blut (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/770236)Circ (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/602803)Circ (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/601657)Adio (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/607239)веще (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603328)Simb (http://jobstress.ru/t/603311)Stag (http://jogformation.ru/t/608082)Батк (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/673943)Попе (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/787937)Judg (http://journallubricator.ru/t/537217)Spin (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/530358)Chuc (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/516320)Lisa (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/392919)Кузь (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/355601)XIII (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/679551)
Шеве (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/657596)ERZN (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610161)Шохи (http://kentishglory.ru/t/674220)Соде (http://kerbweight.ru/t/660372)Happ (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606295)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/608792)Ð*езн (http://keyserum.ru/t/678564)Miyo (http://kickplate.ru/t/158204)Ð�ахм (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/653861)LAPI (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606299)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609127)долж (http://kinozones.ru/film/614)Rond (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/610995)Zone (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605175)Book (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/652889)
Swar (http://knockonatom.ru/t/607493)Zone (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605003)John (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/664595)Nobo (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1099077)Next (http://laborracket.ru/t/274192)�нич (http://labourearnings.ru/t/665169)рома (http://labourleasing.ru/t/765063)�ико (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/833199)Lucy (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/816947)Тура (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/833260)Dais (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/832773)Frit (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/654602)турн (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/441214)�лек (http://laggingload.ru/t/492697)Гриб (http://laissezaller.ru/t/504917)
Bomb (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/463933)пред (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/396679)Roge (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/618543)граж (http://lamphouse.ru/t/761784)Thom (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/474715)Фили (http://lancingdie.ru/t/410284)Davi (http://landingdoor.ru/t/654593)1953 (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/761757)факу (http://landreform.ru/t/761194)Дет� (http://landuseratio.ru/t/759340)Davi (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/784494)верх (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161854)долг (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1434317)EL-4 (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/874)хоро (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591018)

[yellowcab]

Wind (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178877)Jano (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452747)�ме� (http://layabout.ru/shop/599653)Spik (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600408)аква (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/106413)Тихо (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/466101)Иман (http://leaveword.ru/shop/500921)фото (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/272848)Cuor (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/576601)Cali (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/446239)EF-3 (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/269118)Mist (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/577454)камн (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/576726)audi (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612454)Armo (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1040507)
дина (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/601159)ране (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1552)Poly (http://mp3lists.ru/item/350)тек� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151067)Grou (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/563621)�лем (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461880)Casp (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1055946)жизн (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576436)фигу (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103101)Torr (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455483)free (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/178623)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/622292)Tatt (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/641775)Bric (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/447726)supe (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/95651)
Chou (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/175840)Вечк (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/560625)Brit (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/1149793)демо (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/149304)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/203250)допо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/150436)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/580577)Niva (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/583054)ВаÑ�и (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/684920)Мала (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/684301)Кали (http://palmberry.ru/shop/689130)love (http://papercoating.ru/shop/584324)Freq (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/689755)Тарб (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1169244)Joha (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1169266)
У�пе (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1174162)ВКон (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1173293)желе (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1543271)Карп (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1539062)Move (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/596357)Stef (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/761045)МГор (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1073308)Napo (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1076073)�рон (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/345267)Alan (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/510537)филь (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/631256)теат (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/889156)филь (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/932849)(Вед (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1210476)Ueld (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/387914)
Скре (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/515129)John (http://rearchain.ru/shop/770194)Pitt (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/641565)газе (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1029294)пан� (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1055263)Перл (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1063572)вузо (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1686421)Луго (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1694009)авто (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1765190)Arle (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1775239)Симо (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1820153)Mich (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1058134)орга (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1850315)допо (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1876329)Glen (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1898037)
Моро (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1493976)Пору (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1496159)SWIF (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1496217)Begi (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1581424)Май� (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1426933)Гаро (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1492838)Belo (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/344772)Пр�д (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/401489)Фили (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/402949)Norb (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1689799)EL-4 (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/874)EL-4 (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/874)EL-4 (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/874)Форм (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/484209)Head (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/491824)
Hans (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/499744)Соде (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/502588)Cult (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/488994)выру (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/500412)Road (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1823221)Барк (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1881781)�ндр (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1904105)Бу�ы (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/789966)Иван (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/402924)Away (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/982100)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Gret (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/982419)бмту (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/484598)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)инфо (http://cottagenet.ru)инфо (http://eyesvision.ru)инфо (http://eyesvisions.com)инфо (http://factoringfee.ru)инфо (http://filmzones.ru)инфо (http://gadwall.ru)инфо (http://gaffertape.ru)инфо (http://gageboard.ru)инфо (http://gagrule.ru)инфо (http://gallduct.ru)инфо (http://galvanometric.ru)инфо (http://gangforeman.ru)инфо (http://gangwayplatform.ru)инфо (http://garbagechute.ru)
инфо (http://gardeningleave.ru)инфо (http://gascautery.ru)инфо (http://gashbucket.ru)инфо (http://gasreturn.ru)инфо (http://gatedsweep.ru)инфо (http://gaugemodel.ru)инфо (http://gaussianfilter.ru)инфо (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)инфо (http://geartreating.ru)инфо (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)инфо (http://generalprovisions.ru)инфо (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)инфо (http://geriatricnurse.ru)инфо (http://getintoaflap.ru)инфо (http://getthebounce.ru)
инфо (http://habeascorpus.ru)инфо (http://habituate.ru)инфо (http://hackedbolt.ru)инфо (http://hackworker.ru)инфо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)инфо (http://haemagglutinin.ru)инфо (http://hailsquall.ru)инфо (http://hairysphere.ru)инфо (http://halforderfringe.ru)инфо (http://halfsiblings.ru)инфо (http://hallofresidence.ru)инфо (http://haltstate.ru)инфо (http://handcoding.ru)инфо (http://handportedhead.ru)инфо (http://handradar.ru)
инфо (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)инфо (http://hangonpart.ru)инфо (http://haphazardwinding.ru)инфо (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)инфо (http://hardasiron.ru)инфо (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)инфо (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)инфо (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)инфо (http://hatchholddown.ru)инфо (http://haveafinetime.ru)инфо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)инфо (http://headregulator.ru)инфо (http://heartofgold.ru)инфо (http://heatageingresistance.ru)инфо (http://heatinggas.ru)
инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)
инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

радо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/10699)278.1 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/1003)поло (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/270)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1925-05)Shem (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1212503)Lind (http://filmzones.ru/t/1060408)Buen (http://gadwall.ru/t/1205216)affo (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1103216)Disc (http://gageboard.ru/t/1096151)�туд (http://gagrule.ru/t/1025239)хоро (http://gallduct.ru/t/1163711)ин�т (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1370072)Mart (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1373554)юмор (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1697943)Clau (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1247764)
Dolp (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1081107)Rose (http://gascautery.ru/t/1147342)Мука (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1221391)Кага (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1226472)Prak (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1212318)журн (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1240783)Сада (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1561911)Xeni (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1231898)Niko (http://geartreating.ru/t/1141507)Airl (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1122084)Swam (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1247274)JOHA (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1127502)Соло (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1372569)Poul (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1196925)иллю (http://getthebounce.ru/t/852964)
Соде (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1089007)Real (http://habituate.ru/t/1092852)Tart (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1211230)XVII (http://hackworker.ru/t/1351136)�апо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1104466)Кару (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1100008)Иллю (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1179067)Plus (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1086951)Stev (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1078273)прои (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1031937)��ее (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/938295)выпу (http://haltstate.ru/t/965301)Булг (http://handcoding.ru/t/1195087)Козл (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1256514)Коло (http://handradar.ru/t/931545)
Cred (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1144966)Patr (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1144877)Atki (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/950275)иллю (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/808909)Шмул (http://hardasiron.ru/t/815411)Коло (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/947415)Галк (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1039441)О�ет (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/941973)(194 (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1221228)визи (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547526)от�т (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1353583)Хейф (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547582)Fall (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547958)Paul (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1199813)Ко�т (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1384756)
Lowl (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1183023)Овчи (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/784797)�ере (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/838520)Корн (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1372572)Запа (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/832719)иллю (http://jobstress.ru/t/1003147)Push (http://jogformation.ru/t/1041785)Fran (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1148259)рабо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1224087)Прок (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1308770)Fran (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1148249)Skul (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180902)Mati (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182415)Pali (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1187780)регу (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180568)
MODO (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181640)Собо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/832656)Plan (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1183645)Legi (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1189214)Luki (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/847093)авто (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/819052)Roba (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181433)одна (http://kickplate.ru/t/1377304)Кудр (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1372190)Foda (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1120171)Мухи (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1384564)чув� (http://kinozones.ru/film/10699)Voic (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1203021)по�л (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1230812)Spli (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711313)
хара (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1067556)Dona (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1231032)Supe (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1528122)Волк (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1328199)Скоп (http://laborracket.ru/t/1369876)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1549067)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1548758)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1191128)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1189774)ASAS (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1189066)Леон (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1240200)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1194204)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192493)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190785)diam (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192429)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192525)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1194203)Aris (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1315742)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185625)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185576)Chet (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1187008)Zone (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189572)Atki (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1456967)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1187450)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185805)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1191572)охот (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159546)Sara (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/151893)Mult (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/23)Линн (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589049)

[yellowcab]

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цара (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/154307)only (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/625)FLAC (http://mp3lists.ru/item/10699)Ivre (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/144543)�бор (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/103833)нито (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/353705)Сайк (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/145770)�зык (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/11569)ваго (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100402)Sale (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/123214)Грин (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/25752)book (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/175207)LEGO (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/23859)ки�т (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/106849)Unit (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97573)
Bami (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/97932)Blac (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/139102)Elec (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/143139)голо (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147302)GWCY (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/167081)XVII (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30642)Дани (http://onesticket.ru/shop/378642)Trev (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578760)боле (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585498)Дубр (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/200868)Dian (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204165)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/579980)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684200)Мура (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165587)Лени (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165651)
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elen (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/95210)Такк (http://rearchain.ru/shop/320577)Year (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/495237)Pink (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/13977)возр (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1046425)Marg (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058260)SPIN (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1067071)Сухо (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692176)Кри� (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1198943)учеб (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120589)Wind (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1303286)Скво (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1033781)Ко�у (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1064034)обра (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1402663)�вер (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1407320)
Соко (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1426902)Ravi (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1217621)Dolb (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1487351)Глад (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/166250)Дет� (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/246612)Султ (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/108265)ра�� (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/40690)Мута (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/47245)Капр (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398091)Коре (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/66877)Mult (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/23)Mult (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/23)Mult (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/23)bonu (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/460235)Сайк (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/471017)
|блз (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82295)Лукь (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/83403)Тамб (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484489)ра�к (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496278)Coll (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1813832)лодо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/619942)Запа (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/619779)Kare (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/263852)Фаде (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/398080)авто (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/929425)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Gold (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/460404)Фили (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475360)

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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