Defending your home

[kennethdnunn]

Since you Guys are giving Stiffy a hard time about hiding out I have a question for everyone....What is your plan for defending your home? I am assuming that most have families, and I assume since everyone seems to be will armed these weapons are mostly for defense, I mean you only need one weapon for hunting. Now, it is a fact that a house is indefensible, ask any swat team member, special ops, or seal..... a house is a death trap....any number of ways to force anyone inside to surrender or to kill them.....today's houses offer little more protection than a tent from a bullet.....then there is a Molotov cocktail are any kind of fire.....so my question is if there are a few armed desperate or just mean Folks wanting your supplies how do you defend yourself.

[SARKY]

The best way to defend a home (provided you can't hide it from the marauders) is to keep them at distance. That means uncluttered fields of fire and reach out and touch someone calibers. Man trapping is another means of defense. (Check out Ragnar Bensen's book, mantrapping) Having better tactics and better firepower are both a plus in this situation.

[crashdive123]

You start your question out with a tone that may not yield the answers you seek, if in fact that is your goal.

If you are serious about the premise of your question, take a look at the following link. You may want to rephrase your question so that everybody that wants to answer it will be on the same page. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?5477-Survival-Scenario-Check-List

[kennethdnunn]

The best way to defend a home (provided you can't hide it from the marauders) is to keep them at distance. That means uncluttered fields of fire and reach out and touch someone calibers. Man trapping is another means of defense. (Check out Ragnar Bensen's book, mantrapping) Having better tactics and better firepower are both a plus in this situation.


Most Folks live in neighborhoods where the next house is twenty or twenty yards away or closer, so anyone can get close, also man traps are out in that case, then at night everything is in the bad Guys favor...all it takes is on Molotov Cocktail. If you are trapped in a house there are no tactics.

[hunter63]

I thinking you are reading to much into it........

As I was one of the first to offer asked for advice......I will offer you my take.

To be invisible, hide,or "gray-man" invisible in plain sight, (this is not always possible), threat in the open........some on hears a pop in the "north 40" and says What was that......air rifles are just about as loud as the lowest power .22 short or CB

Any firearm be it .22 or air rifle is banished, (is visible to a perceived threat, put people on high alert, and you may end up in a situation where you may be out gunned, whether you like it or not.
An air rifle at 50 yds looks like a rifle......no one will want to be mistaken.

Better off to be "unarmed"....carry a more primitive food gathering tool.
This is my personnel opinion.

It you don't want an answer, of what WE think......Don't ask.

This forum doesn't take a posted question, spend three pages slapping you on the back, agreeing with you,..... thumbs up, smileys,
etc....unless of course you are correct.

Hope that helps.

[kennethdnunn]

You start your question out with a tone that may not yield the answers you seek, if in fact that is your goal.

If you are serious about the premise of your question, take a look at the following link. You may want to rephrase your question so that everybody that wants to answer it will be on the same page. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?5477-Survival-Scenario-Check-List

I assume that with all the fire power every one seems to have it must be for defending their home...otherwise why have it?.....You certainly wouldn't have it with you if you were in the field and found yourself in a survival situation....only one purpose for the firepower that I see......must be deafening the home from what every scenario there may be....

[crashdive123]

I assume that with all the fire power every one seems to have it must be for defending their home...otherwise why have it?.....You certainly wouldn't have it with you if you were in the field and found yourself in a survival situation....only one purpose for the firepower that I see......must be deafening the home from what every scenario there may be....

Good luck with that.

[hunter63]

I assume that with all the fire power every one seems to have it must be for defending their home...otherwise why have it?.....You certainly wouldn't have it with you if you were in the field and found yourself in a survival situation....only one purpose for the firepower that I see......must be deafening the home from what every scenario there may be....

Now that sounds kinda troll-ie........
So Good luck with that.

[kyratshooter]

If a defense is untenable why do they still teach defensive operation in the military, right down to how to properly dig a fighting hole?

If defending a house is impossible why did several State Department administrators just loose their jobs because the house they were responsible for was not properly defended? And why did it take an organized Taliban group (mob) 7 hours to take the badly defended structure from four trained fighters?

Hardened houses have been part of warefare since King Phillip's War here in the U.S. and has been part of each war through history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlov's_House

I can assure you that "inside the wire" is a good place to be. Yes, some us us also have fencing gear on the farm.

Some places are indefensable. Guess what? You do not stay in those places!

As said before, you are writing the rules of this thread as you go along, making every answer the wrong answer by changing the premise on the fly.

[kennethdnunn]

A fox hole is the last line of defense.,,.,usually to cover others retreating or in waiting for reinforcements.....Your right about Benghazi it only took a band of Terrorist 7 hours to completely overrun a armed compound..armed with machine guns and thirty people some of which were trained Seals and CIA...and by the way they had informed the State Department about a week before the attack that the compound was indefensible...a fence of any type is like a lock only protects you from honest people.....during King Phillip's war the houses were made of log or rock and they were firing muskets......

[Sarge47]

Sorry dude, that's classified! Good luck with that. :nono:

[kennethdnunn]

Now that sounds kinda troll-ie........
So Good luck with that.

Sorry don't understand what you mean by troll-ie

[Sarge47]

Since you Guys are giving Stiffy a hard time about hiding out ...

No one's giving Stiffy a "hard time." Everybody's trying to give him reasonable answers, but it would seem to me that he's giving THEM a hard time...just sayin'. :closedeyes:

[kennethdnunn]

Sorry dude, that's classified! Good luck with that. :nono:

Good answer

[Echo2]

No worries...everyone here is going to run out in to the national forest and live off the land....:)

It's hard to say how folks would defend their home....each person here lives somewhere different....different land....different conditions.....different structure.....

It would be impossible to explain to someone who didn't have an intimate relationship with the AO....how you intend to do it.

I can say I'm out in the boonies....all brick structures with metal roofs....choke points that will be monitored by more than my eyes....and you can call BS on me.

But until you saw what I was talking about.....you wouldn't grasp my intentions. Yet I feel very confident in the ability to secure my abode.

Then again....some folks will go with the hornets nest theory....you're only going to poke at it so many times before deciding to leave it alone.

Some folks will be very fluid in their defense....with several cashes of supplies.

You don't know what will work for other folks....so being critical of folks plans is insanely counter productive until you understand their situation...

Just saying...

[Geek]

Hardened houses have been part of warefare since King Phillip's War here in the U.S. and has been part of each war through history.


King Phillip's War is kind of an interesting thing to bring up. I wonder how many here are even aware of that interesting bit of history? As for hardened houses, are you speaking of specific houses such as Caleb Abell's or are you simply making the point that a house can be hardened?

Maybe we should have a thread on how to make a typical frame house "harder".

[Echo2]

http://bulletresistant.bulletguard.com/viewitems/resistant-and-bullet-proof-fiberglass-panels-frps-/bullet-resistant-wall-cabinet-armor

http://www.nabulletproof.com/shopping/start.php?browse=1&cat=5&=SID

[kennethdnunn]

No worries...everyone here is going to run out in to the national forest and live off the land....:)

It's hard to say how folks would defend their home....each person here lives somewhere different....different land....different conditions.....different structure.....

It would be impossible to explain to someone who didn't have an intimate relationship with the AO....how you intend to do it......

I can say I'm out in the boonies....all brick structures with metal roofs....choke points that will be monitored by more than my eyes....and you can call BS on me.

But until you saw what I was talking about.....you wouldn't grasp my intentions. Yet I feel very confident in the ability to secure my abode.

Then again....some folks will go with the hornets nest theory....you're only going to poke at it so many times before deciding to leave it alone.

Some folks will be very fluid in their defense....with several cashes of supplies.

You don't know what will work for other folks....so being critical of folks plans is insanely counter productive until you understand their situation...

Just saying...

I doubt very seriously many people will live in a harden house, are for that matter could afford it..... what you say about being fluid is my point...several caches....to survive you have to be mobile....you can't site one instance were a force in a confined area defeated a mobile force......

[Wildthang]

I can see almost 1/2 mile in all directions, so the reach out and touch them is my plan!

[kennethdnunn]

I can see almost 1/2 mile in all directions, so the reach out and touch them is my plan!

What happens when the sun goes down?....

[Echo2]

I doubt very seriously many people will live in a harden house, are for that matter could afford it..... what you say about being fluid is my point...several caches....to survive you have to be mobile....you can't site one instance were a force in a confined area defeated a mobile force......

Define "confined area"

Once again...you are making assumptions about others situations.

I'm going to argue that it would be very difficult to defend a stationary point with one family....but in all reality if it hits the fan....doubling and tripling up will be the norm....and folks will tend to do it in homes that have the higher survivability rate.

If folks plan now....choose the area and structures....plan for limiting access....create choke points....etc...the survivability of folks become much greater.

Yes....If a military style force were to come to attack and over take.....odds are they will win.

But with good planning....if all they are looking for is to loot....you can make a target so hard....they may wise up and move on.

[Echo2]

What happens when the sun goes down?....

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7105/7358318422_5e10f4de91_z.jpg

[Wildthang]

What happens when the sun goes down?....

Ever heard of a night scope? Plus high wattage lights that beam in every direction will help as well. If the S ever does hit the fan, I will have four close friends here watching the perimeter with night optics so if they get through that, we will just be had! It is probably darn near impossible to totally defend a home if enough bad guys come at you all at once. But we will do the best we can with what we have and that is all I know to do.

[kennethdnunn]

Ever heard of a night scope? Plus high wattage lights that beam in every direction will help as well. If the S ever does hit the fan, I will have four close friends here watching the perimeter with night optics so if they get through that, we will just be had! It is probably darn near impossible to totally defend a home if enough bad guys come at you all at once. But we will do the best we can with what we have and that is all I know to do.

Don't get me wrong ,,,,I am not trying to be argumentative.....you seem to be the most practical person on the Forum....a couple points.....as I here is a disadvantage is have a 1/2 mile of clear visibility and night scopes....the bad Guys may also have the same equipment...the difference is they can choose the time to expose their selves ...you don't ......you may not even know they are there until to late....remember if TSHF by the time these bad Guys get to you they will probably be desperate hunger and scared.....an like you said it is impossible to defend a home...another point I have seen on this site and our survival sites were the members have openly said they would get what they need with their superior fire power...so chances there may be some pretty savvy Folks that take advantage of the situation.....

[kyratshooter]

OK what is your answer kennethdunn?

I have none in a situation where the premise changes with every other post. I used to call these "what if" sessions to a quick hault when I was a teacher. It goes into circular overdrive in rapid order.

You can defend a house.
You can defend a compound
You can defend a city

The trick is you have to know HOW to do it. If you do not know HOW it might seem impossible.

[kennethdnunn]

OK what is your answer kennethdunn?

I have none in a situation where the premise changes with every other post. I used to call these "what if" sessions to a quick hault when I was a teacher. It goes into circular overdrive in rapid order.

You can defend a house.
You can defend a compound
You can defend a city

The trick is you have to know HOW to do it. If you do not know HOW it might seem impossible.

How has the premise of my question changed on every post.... it seems this is a stock reply when you don't have a better answer...I asked how you where going to defend your home..simple question....you should know history...there is more than one well armed and manned castle ....city or compound has been taken....many without a shot fired....

My answer....have the ability to be mobile and don't have all your supplies in the house....then again everyone will have different answer depending on their situation....that's why I asked the question...I am sure my plan is different than yours.....but I am for sure not going to be trapped in a house...and I am not going to be running through the woods living in primitive conditions rubbing sticks together to start a fire because I thought I could defend my house.

[Echo2]

KD....do you have kids?

[kennethdnunn]

KD....do you have kids?

Yes , but they are grown but will have Grand kids one day....your point....

[Echo2]

Yes , but they are grown but will have Grand kids one day....your point....

Is your plan to drag them from point to point....while practicing E&E?

Or find a spot to hunker down and have some form of normalcy for them?

[kennethdnunn]

Is your plan to drag them from point to point....while practicing E&E?

Or find a spot to hunker down and have some form of normalcy for them?

Already have a spot to hunker down a wait it out...it is is remote enough where chances of being approached is slim ....also will be with a small Group....Just think for a moment ...if SHTF and it gets bad enough for anarchy will any populated area be a place where you would want to live?.... especially with a family?....would you want your kids to be confined in a house where a bullet could come through at any moment...where garbage and sewage were in the streets?.... my philosophy is to prepare for the worst case event...any thing else we can handle...I take a long term approach....remember that is my philosophy not yours are anyone else....everyone need to do what they are comfortable with....I just want to point out that you can't defend your home from an outside assault...that's just a fact....

[Sarge47]

....would you want your kids to be confined in a house where a bullet could come through at any moment...where garbage and sewage were in the streets?....

I already have, it was a really mean neighborhood I lived in when I was 12 in Chicago! I figure I'll just have my ex-wife answer the door...she'd scare the crap out of anybody, and if they shoot her.....oh well.



http://legacy-cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/3/thong-15.jpg

Would you like her number?
:innocent: :sneaky2: :creepy: :thumbup:

[ElevenBravo]

The best defense is superior firepower. If lacking that, a hasty retrete with gorilla tactics to follow for a long duration is an excellent prescription.

I would assume a slow snipers crawl to your hacienda and take out the knee cap of one bad guy, then crawling back to your rear position for some rest, while they are awaiting the next attack.. would be a great psyop tool!

Follow that up with some H&I fire at random times, if you dont knee cap them all, they will probably eventually leave.

At least, thats the way I see it. If it were me flying solo, being Rambo is the last thing Id do... snoop & poop is totally in order!

A whining, crying, infected and slowing dying MZB is way more detrimental to the moral of an evil group than a fast & clean kill is...

Andrew

[kennethdnunn]

The best defense is superior firepower. If lacking that, a hasty retrete with gorilla tactics to follow for a long duration is an excellent prescription.

I would assume a slow snipers crawl to your hacienda and take out the knee cap of one bad guy, then crawling back to your rear position for some rest, while they are awaiting the next attack.. would be a great psyop tool!

Absolutely agree
Follow that up with some H&I fire at random times, if you dont knee cap them all, they will probably eventually leave.

At least, thats the way I see it. If it were me flying solo, being Rambo is the last thing Id do... snoop & poop is totally in order!

A whining, crying, infected and slowing dying MZB is way more detrimental to the moral of an evil group than a fast & clean kill is...

Andrew

Absolutely... a couple Guys like you in a Group would do more harm or good depending on how you look at it than twenty people holding up in a compound
or house....

[TheUnknownPoet]

What happens when the sun goes down?....

Then he can use a giant spotlight to see....
oh wait.....
;)

OP, why not just take a rat trap, and file away the metal bar into something reall sharp and put them around your yard? I've never tried this, but i'd assume it'll cut off a few toes of anyone trying to get in, unless they have steel toed boots or something.

[hunter63]

Then he can use a giant spotlight to see....
oh wait.....
;)

OP, why not just take a rat trap, and file away the metal bar into something reall sharp and put them around your yard? I've never tried this, but i'd assume it'll cut off a few toes of anyone trying to get in, unless they have steel toed boots or something.

So like is there a "Troll saying hand book,.... sarcasm for all occasions?

Oh you were serious, my bad.....LOL
Bazinga

[Echo2]

Already have a spot to hunker down a wait it out...it is is remote enough where chances of being approached is slim ....also will be with a small Group....Just think for a moment ...if SHTF and it gets bad enough for anarchy will any populated area be a place where you would want to live?.... especially with a family?....would you want your kids to be confined in a house where a bullet could come through at any moment...where garbage and sewage were in the streets?.... my philosophy is to prepare for the worst case event...any thing else we can handle...I take a long term approach....remember that is my philosophy not yours are anyone else....everyone need to do what they are comfortable with....I just want to point out that you can't defend your home from an outside assault...that's just a fact....

I live in a rural area....My BOL is in an even more rural area.....if you find us....you're looking for us.

In our group....the family is key...and the protection of them is key.

The group allows for greater security...a greater variety of skill sets....more buying power....more collective resources....etc.

[TheUnknownPoet]

So like is there a "Troll saying hand book,.... sarcasm for all occasions?

Oh you were serious, my bad.....LOL
Bazinga

Be realistic- almost no one can afford to reinforce their homes with bullet proof walls (as mentioned earlier) and the night opptics would work, but good luck getting them out of the US. (In canada there's no way you can get one of thoes.)

Besides, rat traps will spring up when triggered, distracting whoever's walking, giving you a chance to shoot.

[BENESSE]

James Wesley Rawles has gone into a lot of detail about this in his "Patriots" book.
Doable but not easy unless you're in a compound with people who can actively participate in a 24/7 OpSec (inside and outside the home), and you're armed out of the wazoo. And that's just for starters.

[Echo2]

James Wesley Rawles has gone into a lot of detail about this in his "Patriots" book.
Doable but not easy unless you're in a compound with people who can actively participate in a 24/7 OpSec (inside and outside the home), and you're armed out of the wazoo. And that's just for starters.

:).....just...:)

[Echo2]

Be realistic- almost no one can afford to reinforce their homes with bullet proof walls

these are cheap....

http://www.catalogclearance.com/itm_img/sandbags.jpg

[ElevenBravo]

Sandbags are king,, and OP... Im *old school* 11B, as you can tell by my ref to H&I... though I wasnt in Nam, I has soome fellow soldiers that were,, and taught us a lot...

Andrew

[SHTFMIKE]

Since you Guys are giving Stiffy a hard time about hiding out I have a question for everyone....What is your plan for defending your home? I am assuming that most have families, and I assume since everyone seems to be will armed these weapons are mostly for defense, I mean you only need one weapon for hunting. Now, it is a fact that a house is indefensible, ask any swat team member, special ops, or seal..... a house is a death trap....any number of ways to force anyone inside to surrender or to kill them.....today's houses offer little more protection than a tent from a bullet.....then there is a Molotov cocktail are any kind of fire.....so my question is if there are a few armed desperate or just mean Folks wanting your supplies how do you defend yourself.

This topic has been discussed many times on many forums. There are many things that can be done to fortify your home.

Exterior: Depending on the size of your yard you can install chain link fencing around the perimeter with either barbed or razor wire on top. The taller the better.
Tall trees to block your home from prying eyes is a plus.
Plant thorny brush outside your windows to prevent anyone from trying to break in that way.
Security bars on windows.
sandbags around perimeter.
I spoke to a guy who has an elaborate sprinkler system setup for the exterior of his roof in case of fire.

Interior: Weapons. Many of them.
The insides of your entry's and windows can be fortified as well. I.E. steel security plating.
Sprinkler systems and fire extinguishers.
Safe room/ underground safety.

These are just some ideas that can be utilized for home protection. If a determined group of people want in badly enough, they may figure a way in regardless.

[Rick]

I use gators on chains around the house. Cats hate 'em but I haven't been robbed.

[Sourdough]

http://maxvelocitytactical.blogspot.com/2012/10/long-term-security-and-defense-of-your.html

[1stimestar]

Since you Guys are giving Stiffy a hard time about hiding out I have a question for everyone....What is your plan for defending your home? I am assuming that most have families, and I assume since everyone seems to be will armed these weapons are mostly for defense, I mean you only need one weapon for hunting. Now, it is a fact that a house is indefensible, ask any swat team member, special ops, or seal..... a house is a death trap....any number of ways to force anyone inside to surrender or to kill them.....today's houses offer little more protection than a tent from a bullet.....then there is a Molotov cocktail are any kind of fire.....so my question is if there are a few armed desperate or just mean Folks wanting your supplies how do you defend yourself.

Perhaps YOU only need one weapon for hunting...

[Desert Rat!]

What happens when the sun goes down?.... Fight in the shade!

[Desert Rat!]

these are cheap....

http://www.catalogclearance.com/itm_img/sandbags.jpgExactly..............

[kyratshooter]

How has the premise of my question changed on every post.... it seems this is a stock reply when you don't have a better answer...I asked how you where going to defend your home..simple question....you should know history...there is more than one well armed and manned castle ....city or compound has been taken....many without a shot fired....


Kenneth, you have never been through a combat leadership training school, have you?

What kind of historical training do you have?

As a historian I must point out that the only fortresses that have fallen to seige fell due to the actions of a well organized and well suipplied army, as long as the technology was equil. It takes a dedicated and well supplied army to starve out a good defensive position.

When only small arms were available not a single frontier fort in America was ever taken by force unless the defenders opened the gates through trickery and deceat, and let the enemy in or no guards were posted. That is historical fact!

When a frontier fort fell it did so because someone opend the door, someone went to sleep on their post, or the enemy showed up with artillery. In many cases the designers of the fort included several hardened houses with oeverlapping fires as part of their defense. Hardened houses have been mainstays of defensive works in our nation since King Phillip's war in 1675.

I have several documented instances where as few as a dozen defenders behind wooden walls held off as many as 400 attackers.

At Adobe Walls 28 men held off 1500 Comachee using a combination of sniper fire and massed firepower in the defense operating out of abandoned adobe houses. They had such a fine time that within 4 days their ranks had swelled to 150 frontiersmen that infiltrated through the Indian lines into the defense parimeter so they would not miss the fun.

As an Infantry officer I was ordered to establish a series of holes in the ground and make a defense using weapons at hand on several occasions. If I can defend a hole in the ground I can sure defend a well hardened house!

I have also been called on to establish outpost defenses and larger perimeters around refugee camps. Sometimes mobility is not an option and you simply make a location so dangerous to attack it is not worth the lives that will be lost in taking it.

I must say that it is almost impossible to defend a house if no hardening is done and if one is alone. Perhaps you should make some friends. Try to find some that did not get their training from vidio games or zombie forums.

[1stimestar]

Kenneth, you have never been through a combat leadership training school, have you?

What kind of historical training do you have?

As a historian I must point out that the only fortresses that have fallen to seige fell due to the actions of a well organized and well suipplied army, as long as the technology was equil. It takes a dedicated and well supplied army to starve out a good defensive position.

When only small arms were available not a single frontier fort in America was ever taken by force unless the defenders opened the gates through trickery and deceat, and let the enemy in or no guards were posted. That is historical fact!

When a frontier fort fell it did so because someone opend the door, someone went to sleep on their post, or the enemy showed up with artillery. In many cases the designers of the fort included several hardened houses with oeverlapping fires as part of their defense. Hardened houses have been mainstays of defensive works in our nation since King Phillip's war in 1675.

I have several documented instances where as few as a dozen defenders behind wooden walls held off as many as 400 attackers.

At Adobe Walls 28 men held off 1500 Comachee using a combination of sniper fire and massed firepower in the defense operating out of abandoned adobe houses. They had such a fine time that within 4 days their ranks had swelled to 150 frontiersmen that infiltrated through the Indian lines into the defense parimeter so they would not miss the fun.

As an Infantry officer I was ordered to establish a series of holes in the ground and make a defense using weapons at hand on several occasions. If I can defend a hole in the ground I can sure defend a well hardened house!

I have also been called on to establish outpost defenses and larger perimeters around refugee camps. Sometimes mobility is not an option and you simply make a location so dangerous to attack it is not worth the lives that will be lost in taking it.

I must say that it is almost impossible to defend a house if no hardening is done and if one is alone. Perhaps you should make some friends. Try to find some that did not get their training from vidio games or zombie forums.

*Clap clap clap. I tried to rep you but have to share the joy around first.

I live in Alaska. We are all armed. We all have stockpiles of food, fuel and ammo. Why would anyone, who has the same type of stuff as I do, go through possibly dying to take MY stuff, when they have their own stuff as well as a few newbies here and there who would be much easier targets.

[kennethdnunn]

Kenneth, you have never been through a combat leadership training school, have you?

What kind of historical training do you have?

As a historian I must point out that the only fortresses that have fallen to seige fell due to the actions of a well organized and well suipplied army, as long as the technology was equil. It takes a dedicated and well supplied army to starve out a good defensive position.

When only small arms were available not a single frontier fort in America was ever taken by force unless the defenders opened the gates through trickery and deceat, and let the enemy in or no guards were posted. That is historical fact!

When a frontier fort fell it did so because someone opend the door, someone went to sleep on their post, or the enemy showed up with artillery. In many cases the designers of the fort included several hardened houses with oeverlapping fires as part of their defense. Hardened houses have been mainstays of defensive works in our nation since King Phillip's war in 1675.

I have several documented instances where as few as a dozen defenders behind wooden walls held off as many as 400 attackers.

At Adobe Walls 28 men held off 1500 Comachee using a combination of sniper fire and massed firepower in the defense operating out of abandoned adobe houses. They had such a fine time that within 4 days their ranks had swelled to 150 frontiersmen that infiltrated through the Indian lines into the defense parimeter so they would not miss the fun.

As an Infantry officer I was ordered to establish a series of holes in the ground and make a defense using weapons at hand on several occasions. If I can defend a hole in the ground I can sure defend a well hardened house!

I have also been called on to establish outpost defenses and larger perimeters around refugee camps. Sometimes mobility is not an option and you simply make a location so dangerous to attack it is not worth the lives that will be lost in taking it.

I must say that it is almost impossible to defend a house if no hardening is done and if one is alone. Perhaps you should make some friends. Try to find some that did not get their training from vidio games or zombie forums.

First I am not trained in any type History....nor am I trained in combat leadership....I can however read....First the Adobe Walls...the first Adobe Walls war was fought by Kit CArson and he was forced to retreat...the second the Comanches did not get defeated they simple left....and if you will read the true accounts these Folks were not having a ball many died........second....Historical Facts?...you every hear of Fort Detroit? British forced a far superior number of Americans in the fort to surrender....there are many instances of Forts that were taken....Fort William Henry....Fort Pillow...Fort Seybert...etc..How about the Lake Shetek, massacre where thirty settles held up in a cabin and were massacred... Most of the Forts in the West were simply warehouses that supported Calavery which where always on patrol to keep the Indians from holding siege to the forts....in other words mobile forces protected the forts...and remember most of those instances were in log or rock structures and the enemy was firing arrows or muskets....
How about Napoleon that what he did lay siege to the towns and cities....then there is Vietnam mobile forces ruled there from what I am told and read....then there was World War II ....didn't we win by running the Germans out of all the towns and cities.....do you Guys every do anything on this Forum but try and contradict someone trying to show how smart you are?

[kennethdnunn]

*Clap clap clap. I tried to rep you but have to share the joy around first.

I live in Alaska. We are all armed. We all have stockpiles of food, fuel and ammo. Why would anyone, who has the same type of stuff as I do, go through possibly dying to take MY stuff, when they have their own stuff as well as a few newbies here and there who would be much easier targets.



That is probably true but how many Folks are going to be as well supplied as you?

[JPGreco]

First I am not trained in any type History....nor am I trained in combat leadership....I can however read....First the Adobe Walls...the first Adobe Walls war was fought by Kit CArson and he was forced to retreat...the second the Comanches did not get defeated they simple left....and if you will read the true accounts these Folks were not having a ball many died........second....Historical Facts?...you every hear of Fort Detroit? British forced a far superior number of Americans in the fort to surrender....there are many instances of Forts that were taken....Fort William Henry....Fort Pillow...Fort Seybert...etc..How about the Lake Shetek, massacre where thirty settles held up in a cabin and were massacred... Most of the Forts in the West were simply warehouses that supported Calavery which where always on patrol to keep the Indians from holding siege to the forts....in other words mobile forces protected the forts...and remember most of those instances were in log or rock structures and the enemy was firing arrows or muskets....
How about Napoleon that what he did lay siege to the towns and cities....then there is Vietnam mobile forces ruled there from what I am told and read....then there was World War II ....didn't we win by running the Germans out of all the towns and cities.....do you Guys every do anything on this Forum but try and contradict someone trying to show how smart you are?

I've noticed that around here, people who start a thread with a perceived antagonistic tone are treated pretty poorly. Also, open ended questions such as this aren't received well, as there is a set format for 'what ifs'. When you don't adhere to that system, the what if babble is endless. As for the historical facts, anyone can find something to support and contradict any idea. However, there is a lot more to success or failure of an armed conflict outside of the structure and numbers, so again, it brings in numerous what ifs.

The way I see it, the success or failure of entrenching in your home comes down to which side is better prepared (including knowledge). On equal grounds, it becomes a war of attrition and what ifs.

as for why have so much firepower. All I have to say is why not. Some people collect stamps, some coins, some people collect guns. So what? Do they need a justifiable reason?


And Rick, you forgot the moat.

[Echo2]

That is probably true but how many Folks are going to be as well supplied as you?

A lot of folks here...

[kennethdnunn]

Kenneth, you have never been through a combat leadership training school, have you?

What kind of historical training do you have?

As a historian I must point out that the only fortresses that have fallen to seige fell due to the actions of a well organized and well suipplied army, as long as the technology was equil. It takes a dedicated and well supplied army to starve out a good defensive position.

When only small arms were available not a single frontier fort in America was ever taken by force unless the defenders opened the gates through trickery and deceat, and let the enemy in or no guards were posted. That is historical fact!

When a frontier fort fell it did so because someone opend the door, someone went to sleep on their post, or the enemy showed up with artillery. In many cases the designers of the fort included several hardened houses with oeverlapping fires as part of their defense. Hardened houses have been mainstays of defensive works in our nation since King Phillip's war in 1675.

I have several documented instances where as few as a dozen defenders behind wooden walls held off as many as 400 attackers.

At Adobe Walls 28 men held off 1500 Comachee using a combination of sniper fire and massed firepower in the defense operating out of abandoned adobe houses. They had such a fine time that within 4 days their ranks had swelled to 150 frontiersmen that infiltrated through the Indian lines into the defense parimeter so they would not miss the fun.

As an Infantry officer I was ordered to establish a series of holes in the ground and make a defense using weapons at hand on several occasions. If I can defend a hole in the ground I can sure defend a well hardened house!

I have also been called on to establish outpost defenses and larger perimeters around refugee camps. Sometimes mobility is not an option and you simply make a location so dangerous to attack it is not worth the lives that will be lost in taking it.

I must say that it is almost impossible to defend a house if no hardening is done and if one is alone. Perhaps you should make some friends. Try to find some that did not get their training from vidio games or zombie forums.

I forgot Ft. Sumter....Vicksburg...Ft.Smith...and about digging that hole and protecting it from all comers with whats at hand...you were joking were you not?....got lot's of friends...also have a sister in law that is a history professor at a major university so that's not impressive...also new a lot of officers....also not impressive...give me a sergeant any time .....

[JPGreco]

Ft. Sumter was held for nearly 2 days by a force that was under heavy cannon fire and vastly outnumbered.

Ft. Smith was held by a a larger army with heavy artillery vs a smaller non artillery force.

Vicksburg was a siege by a well supplied army, which has already been noted that the defending force cannot win.

I fail to see what those three have to do with the discussion. 1 proved to be able to hold a position with better equipment. 1 proved a better supplied siege unit will be victorious. 1 proved that a lesser equipped force will fail to hold. Pretty much proves my point that there is more to it than the structure and numbers and that there are numerous occurrences in history to support any side.

[kennethdnunn]

I've noticed that around here, people who start a thread with a perceived antagonistic tone are treated pretty poorly. Also, open ended questions such as this aren't received well, as there is a set format for 'what ifs'. When you don't adhere to that system, the what if babble is endless. As for the historical facts, anyone can find something to support and contradict any idea. However, there is a lot more to success or failure of an armed conflict outside of the structure and numbers, so again, it brings in numerous what ifs.

The way I see it, the success or failure of entrenching in your home comes down to which side is better prepared (including knowledge). On equal grounds, it becomes a war of attrition and what ifs.

as for why have so much firepower. All I have to say is why not. Some people collect stamps, some coins, some people collect guns. So what? Do they need a justifiable reason?


And Rick, you forgot the moat.

What could possible be a more important a question than how you are going to defend your home?....Thats were it all starts...
Nothing wrong with having firearms....never said there were...

[1stimestar]

That is probably true but how many Folks are going to be as well supplied as you?

Most of them. Really, when you can go for WEEKS when the HIGH temperature of the day is -40, you tend to be prepared for anything. Even a lot of people in town are fairly well prepared. Now I'm not talking Anchorage, but the sub arctic, the Interior, the arctic, in the bush, etc. You know, the real Alaska.

[JPGreco]

nothing wrong with the question, but parameters are needed. Someone said most people live with houses 20 yards away. Well most isn't everyone. Some people here live in cities, others in the middle of nowhere. So parameters are vital. How I go about defending my home will be vastly different from someone who lives in a rural area. There are more people within 1500 square miles of me than there are in something like 40 states. Add in NYC and the metropolitan area the amount of people grows immensely. The amount of ammo I would need alone to repel attacks over a year would supply others for more than their lifetime, even if I can accomplish 1 shot, 1 kill at an impossible rate of fire. Second problem is that there are already heavily armed and massed numbers of gangs. So again, my issue is way different than someone elses, hence why parameters are vital. I never said the question is irrelevant. I said to eliminate as many what ifs by following the scenario template.

I'm relatively neutral on the this since getting out would be exceedingly difficult with the number of people on the move and I'm not prepared to defend any location.

Also, parameters of the scenario can force you into or out of your home, so defending your home is not where it all starts, specifics of the scenario is where it all starts. After all, this is all hypothetical.

[JPGreco]

1stimestar illustrates my point very well. Alaska forces you to be prepared. I live in an area that I can get pretty much anything I want at pretty much any hour of the day.

[1stimestar]

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/i/pi/667125_1.gif

[crashdive123]

1stimestar illustrates my point very well. Alaska forces you to be prepared. I live in an area that I can get pretty much anything I want at pretty much any hour of the day.

Sandy may have changed that for a lot of your neighbors.

[kennethdnunn]

nothing wrong with the question, but parameters are needed. Someone said most people live with houses 20 yards away. Well most isn't everyone. Some people here live in cities, others in the middle of nowhere. So parameters are vital. How I go about defending my home will be vastly different from someone who lives in a rural area. There are more people within 1500 square miles of me than there are in something like 40 states. Add in NYC and the metropolitan area the amount of people grows immensely. The amount of ammo I would need alone to repel attacks over a year would supply others for more than their lifetime, even if I can accomplish 1 shot, 1 kill at an impossible rate of fire. Second problem is that there are already heavily armed and massed numbers of gangs. So again, my issue is way different than someone elses, hence why parameters are vital. I never said the question is irrelevant. I said to eliminate as many what ifs by following the scenario template.

I'm relatively neutral on the this since getting out would be exceedingly difficult with the number of people on the move and I'm not prepared to defend any location.

Also, parameters of the scenario can force you into or out of your home, so defending your home is not where it all starts, specifics of the scenario is where it all starts. After all, this is all hypothetical.

Every ones situation will be different that is why I asked the question to more than one person....

You could say the same about almost any question...like what is the best rifle for survival...that is a question that is often asked.

[JPGreco]

haha, yeah, I'm pretty much done here unless a scenario is put forth, and even then I will have little input since I don't know much about the actual subject outside of a handful of concepts. I put out the necessary info and illustrations of concepts and situations. No point in going any further without an appropriate response. I wasn't even gonna pop my head in the door, but Rick beat me to the gators joke, but he forgot the moat.

[kennethdnunn]

Most of them. Really, when you can go for WEEKS when the HIGH temperature of the day is -40, you tend to be prepared for anything. Even a lot of people in town are fairly well prepared. Now I'm not talking Anchorage, but the sub arctic, the Interior, the arctic, in the bush, etc. You know, the real Alaska.

The same is true where I live most everyone around has supplies...because of the snow and distance to store....

[kennethdnunn]

This topic has been discussed many times on many forums. There are many things that can be done to fortify your home.

Exterior: Depending on the size of your yard you can install chain link fencing around the perimeter with either barbed or razor wire on top. The taller the better.
Tall trees to block your home from prying eyes is a plus.
Plant thorny brush outside your windows to prevent anyone from trying to break in that way.
Security bars on windows.
sandbags around perimeter.
I spoke to a guy who has an elaborate sprinkler system setup for the exterior of his roof in case of fire.

Interior: Weapons. Many of them.
The insides of your entry's and windows can be fortified as well. I.E. steel security plating.
Sprinkler systems and fire extinguishers.
Safe room/ underground safety.

These are just some ideas that can be utilized for home protection. If a determined group of people want in badly enough, they may figure a way in regardless.

These are great ideas but how many people can afford to do these things and how many have wives that would let them....I mean you could install bullet proof panels and glass...no end what you can do but what is really plactical?

[redneckidokie]

Unfortunately, I am not one that lives on a secret underground compound, beneath a hardened bunker of goods above.
I live in a normal everyday neighborhood, with houses on three sides.
The common retort is, ''get out of there''. Well there is small lull in the house market of late. I can't just pick it up and move it, though I wish I could.
It is a standard brick and morter house from the early 70's, and as I have said before in other threads, It is not defendable, or even surviveable in hard times.
If I push up burms around the perimeter, put up kevlar siding behind sandbags, fire suppression and a turret on the roof, and surround the whole thing in razor wire, and 'alligators', somebody is going to come see me. Beside the housing association?
My only choice is to bail if need be.
I guess my point is not all houses are defendable. If you are lucky enough to live out in the tullies you might possibly have a better chance. It will come down to manpower, man hours, and money. The less well situated, and supplied families are in for a rough patch.

[SHTFMIKE]

These are great ideas but how many people can afford to do these things and how many have wives that would let them....I mean you could install bullet proof panels and glass...no end what you can do but what is really plactical?

Of course they are just ideas. I can't afford ALL of those things, but can afford a couple. They are all effective ideas on how to fortify your home, weather it be from intruders or an angry mob. I'm sure if it came down to a total SHTF situation, your wives would be right on board with whatever you could do to keep the family safe.

[kennethdnunn]

Unfortunately, I am not one that lives on a secret underground compound, beneath a hardened bunker of goods above.
I live in a normal everyday neighborhood, with houses on three sides.
The common retort is, ''get out of there''. Well there is small lull in the house market of late. I can't just pick it up and move it, though I wish I could.
It is a standard brick and morter house from the early 70's, and as I have said before in other threads, It is not defendable, or even surviveable in hard times.
If I push up burms around the perimeter, put up kevlar siding behind sandbags, fire suppression and a turret on the roof, and surround the whole thing in razor wire, and 'alligators', somebody is going to come see me. Beside the housing association?
My only choice is to bail if need be.
I guess my point is not all houses are defendable. If you are lucky enough to live out in the tullies you might possibly have a better chance. It will come down to manpower, man hours, and money. The less well situated, and supplied families are in for a rough patch.

I would guess that at least 95% of the people in the U.S. are in the same situation.....

[Dolphin]

Punji pits and booby traps, psychological warfare.

[loner]

a home isn`t indefesable it is a starting point true you will get over run in time ie run out of amo to properly defend a home you must have8 ppl with guns not this is a starting point !
my views are as follows you must pre plan for this in the event of this happening you have a escape plan an escape route and train to implament said plan . you must also have a safe place to escape to ie hideing in plan site wich the indians were great in this me i would by a plot of unimproved land and leave it that way then i would dig a hidden underground bunker not of concrete or steel of ground and wood bracing i would hide the entrance in plan site by useing natural material something you could walk over and not fall thru . i would sbring in all i think i would need in to my whole in the ground prior to the crap happening . back to the home
the way the milatry teaches the seals to regress i call it fire and run and tapping the next man on the shoulder when passing him or her ( live to fight another day) their no honor no respect no caring when it happens it i protect me and mine and anubody who atempts to interfeer with that will die PERIOD .. sorry about the spelling mistakes

[1stimestar]

gud luk with that

[Wildthang]

I feel I am fortunate that I live right in the middle of a bunch of farmers that are all gun enthusiasts. In the spring, summer and fall, they all get out back and burn lead, and it sounds like a war zone. These are the kind of people that live in an 8 mile radius around me. nothing is for sure, but if a bunch of hoodlums come my way, by the time I see any of them, they will more than likely be dead, or badly wounded by the time they start looking at my place.

[GreatUsername]

Another possible solution is a more passive defense (in the situation of a somewhat crowded suburban environment) where you intentionally trash the exterior of your house and make it appear to have been looted already. There wouldn't be much reason for looters to come by if your house looks that way, and if they DO come, they would be less likely to be on their guard (and therefore easier to eliminate) because the home looks abandoned. The hard part would be staying in place and doing the necessities of living (such as cooking) without drawing attention to oneself, and obviously using lights at night would be inadvisable.

So, that's my summary plan. Concealment is a lot less work than constantly prepping for a fight, just be ready to fight if it comes to it, and to flee if a defense is untenable. Your supplies aren't worth your life, you can always get more later.

[kyratshooter]

If your supplies are not worth your life and you can get more latter,,,

You are not in a survival situation.

[Exbrit]

Some excellent things to thing of in this thread, wish things were as clear cut here.

[old2531]

i dont think there is one right answer just do best we can if the bad guys have gotten ahold of a 50 cal it doesnt matter what kind of security u have as an oposing force im gonna get what u have even if i have to steel an armored truck to do it
if u live in the suberbs or city forget hardend house idea as u buy supplys cops will think your making a meth lab bunkers arnt bad but have a bunnie hole ( if u live in midwest your not building a bunker your building a tornado shelter- police know who has massive amounts of ammo and in what calibers

[old2531]

it doesnt matter what kind of guns you have or how big they are if your oponite can shut your water source off your screwed

[natertot]

On a regular basis, I make my homestead less appealing to criminal types. I drive average and mundane cars, my house is white with nice but simple landscaping. I'm careful how I discard trash, and how I bring goods in my house. My neighbor who has a Z06 Corvette and a Cadillac in his drive on the other hand..........

A battle not fought is a battle aleady won in my book......

[GreatUsername]

On a regular basis, I make my homestead less appealing to criminal types. I drive average and mundane cars, my house is white with nice but simple landscaping. I'm careful how I discard trash, and how I bring goods in my house. My neighbor who has a Z06 Corvette and a Cadillac in his drive on the other hand..........

A battle not fought is a battle aleady won in my book......


Indeed. This is part of what I was saying before, which garnered a response from Kyrat about "not a survival situation"
Everything has to be weighed by situation, but I'd err on the side of "better to survive in the short-term" when deciding whether or not to engage in a fight to defend my resources. Not much point in fighting for your food if you die for it. Better to risk starvation if it gives you a chance to at least escape and look for food elsewhere. In other words: hard times are better than no times at all.

[kyratshooter]

There is a difference between defending ones existance, inviting intrusion or daring someone to attack you.

Nate is talking common sense security, general real world conflict avoidance. Anyone with good sense avoids all that can be avoided and hopes conflict never materializes.

In turn. some of us are faced with situations that make running like a bat out of hell impossible; pregnant wives, infant children, infirmties or injuries. The loss of those supplies sometimes is a death sentance in itself, not just "hard times". If one knows he is hindered one prepares for defense.

Or one prepares not to defend. One hides, preserves life and watches from a distance as the sustanance of life is stolen, the family is butchered or run to the ground and killed.

Some things are worth dying for, some are not. I suppose each person decides where that line happens to be in their case and for their conscience. Is there anything or anyone in your life worth dying for?

Ask you wife if she qualifies, or your kids.

Is you Constitution worth dying for? Some of us took an oath that said it was, and it is only an abstaract guide for operation of a government!



Defense comes in two versions, purposeful prepared defense and being cornered.

Often people forget that one of the stratigies of a good attack is to channel the enemy into a kill zone that looks like an escape. It is also not good to make an enemy feel he is fighting a last ditch effort. If he thinks there is an escape he takes it. Flushing the enemy out of his position is the goal of every attack. Then you run him into the ground.

In turn, the first principle of defense it to never leave a good defensive position until contact is confirmed broken.

These are simple small unit tatics taught by the militaries of every nation, but they are real world, not the normal discussion on forums, what is used on the paintball field or conjured up on a video game.

[old2531]

Be realistic- almost no one can afford to reinforce their homes with bullet proof walls (as mentioned earlier) and the night opptics would work, but good luck getting them out of the US. (In canada there's no way you can get one of thoes.)

Besides, rat traps will spring up when triggered, distracting whoever's walking, giving you a chance to shoot. a simple caltrop will do the same thing and easier to disperse

[birdman6660]

this idea of defending is foremost for me .. we have ok field of fire ... son lives 100 feet away so anyone coming in has to look in two directions .. we in the middle of nowhere so we gonna avoid detection for the most part .. both house will be surrounded with numerous cords of stacked firewood .. deterrs small arms fire anyways .... weapon in pretty much every room including the sheds n barns ... every person here can shoot every weapon fairly well ... we have all agreed that anyone approaching our home POST TEOTWAWKI will be required to do so NAKED ... no concealed weapons there laddies ! well almost ! this system is almost totally in place and will be complete before fall .... Fire is about all we cant defend against .. will hafta ponder that one ... ANY IDEAS OUT THERE ?

[Geek]

Fire extinguishers belong in every home. How many and where located is up to you.

[endurance]

Prepping has its limitations when it comes to the individual. If all my neighbors think I'm an a-hole, but can plainly see that I have 8kw of solar on my roof and one or two has seen I have a garage full of food, I'm a target. On the other hand, if I'm that neighbor that is always happy to come over and help you plow your driveway, plant that new fruit tree, share your venison all summer long with neighborhood BBQs and gently encourage others to be prepared for winter storms and other disruptions of service; I'ma gunna be alrighty, mahn. If my neighborhood and community see me at a resource; as someone to go to when things are tough, they'll take what I say to heart today and after the SHTF. If I'm generous with my time and resources, they're more likely to be generous with what they can offer me. They're also more likely to help me protect my community, whether it's keeping an eye on my house when I'm out of town or helping me man the road closure at the bottom of the road when the SHTF. It's a lot easier for 1,200 residents to prepare 24/7 coverage and be able to report strangers where they don't belong than for me and my family.

Home security should never start at your front door. If they've made it that far into your space without some kind of warning, you've screwed up. That's why you can't make it to my front door without setting off a motion detector (or the dogs). I want the time to prepare a response, even before the SHTF. I don't like surprises. Now, if you can expand that buffer of warning time to the end of your street or the end of the next street beyond that and you can prepare an organized response of not just yourself, but a half-dozen well drilled folks, well, you have a lot more control over the outcome and your average cookie cutter home doesn't have to worry about stopping bullets or bottle bombs.

[BENESSE]

Along those lines, I highly recommend reading "Lights Out" by David Crawford.
http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-David-Crawford/dp/0615427359/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362264209&sr=8-1&keywords=lights+out+book
Fiction, but very plausible...anyone can relate. Good read, makes you think.
Bottom line and to be corny, it takes a village. Very hard to sustain any kind of defense by yourself and a few family members. Add to that neighbors, and you're beginning to have a prayer.

[yellowcab]

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Rexo (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1028396)Spla (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1144781)обще (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/853686)Собч (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/720720)XVII (http://hardasiron.ru/t/806746)Deut (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/947191)четы (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/977496)КонÑ� (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/851818)Льво (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/959604)King (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1547408)Ð*аги (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1256168)Харч (http://headregulator.ru/t/1547460)Modo (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547835)Alis (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1049019)Фише (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1354532)
Eleg (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182899)Anth (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/770043)Печн (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/832664)XVII (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1246527)Иван (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/813762)Соде (http://jobstress.ru/t/836826)Twin (http://jogformation.ru/t/1032690)Coto (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1148134)Каты (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1217113)Davi (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1238522)Coto (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1148125)Sela (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180788)Neri (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182297)Krew (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1183659)Silv (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180439)
Muns (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181505)Соде (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/814547)Stop (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1183508)ноут (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1188030)реда (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/829883)иллю (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/808768)карм (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181303)Zapp (http://kickplate.ru/t/1356807)Веге (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1346358)Mari (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1098640)Anne (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1320239)Junk (http://kinozones.ru/film/10658)Kham (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1200431)Beet (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1141797)Буре (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711251)
Стро (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1015966)Mich (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1210979)XVII (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1478090)Тын� (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1250807)Кушн (http://laborracket.ru/t/1308651)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1548903)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1548631)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190997)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1189648)мен� (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188934)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1187268)Miyo (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1194011)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192346)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190653)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192284)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192342)Miyo (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1194035)ум�т (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1241724)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185486)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185439)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186877)ABQS (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1189052)Лучи (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1346035)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1187326)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185674)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1191444)Koln (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159479)века (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/151817)Tani (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/2059)XIII (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/588645)

[yellowcab]

Aspe (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1030599)HANS (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453712)Gall (http://layabout.ru/shop/99411)Warp (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/18394)Sven (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/47824)Воро (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/96698)4200 (http://leaveword.ru/shop/141911)Down (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/53564)�рти (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/96367)EPTP (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/135647)1772 (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/46774)�зин (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/196382)Edmi (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/145011)кур� (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159039)ARAG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/612697)
Phoe (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/153746)July (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/584)Chan (http://mp3lists.ru/item/10658)most (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/142020)Magi (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/103666)пеÑ�к (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/304734)Древ (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/145634)Кита (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/11432)Ñ�зык (http://navelseed.ru/shop/61040)STYL (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/123052)инÑ�Ñ‚ (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/24488)Ð*ыжо (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/167492)Mono (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/12446)Башк (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/106269)Hyun (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/97531)
Tefa (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/97891)Stil (http://oceanmining.ru)Stur (http://octupolephonon.ru)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147221)Fred (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/150887)Деше (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30595)диÑ�Ñ� (http://onesticket.ru/shop/89855)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578621)Cleo (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585380)перк (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/200659)Кары (http://palmberry.ru/shop/203975)Фили (http://papercoating.ru/shop/579777)Java (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684016)Изак (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165410)меди (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165464)
Wind (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1055089)дире (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167226)Emil (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/153951)Erne (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/152907)Magi (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/572219)Mada (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/478466)Mick (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/124166)Cole (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1047299)вече (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/111194)Chri (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/68401)�каз (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/322021)Dani (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/480692)Waxw (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/574200)(Вед (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/125552)Медв (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/124939)
Бат� (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/86400)Mant (http://rearchain.ru/shop/318118)Гу�е (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/468362)Micr (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/13904)Майк (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1046109)Смир (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058074)во�п (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1066378)обоб (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692075)Yves (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1198725)�хре (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120518)Сорв (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1294592)бухг (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1033617)Миха (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1063666)�ило (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1389915)парт (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1406535)
XVII (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1422924)Вахн (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1214268)Ко�т (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1485029)Биль (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/166111)ложн (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/246203)Матв (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/105332)факу (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/35639)�аза (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/47085)чита (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/396612)авто (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/65403)Tani (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/2059)Tani (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/2059)Tani (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/2059)PSPI (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/460082)�ром (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/463434)
Oliv (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82214)Ли�т (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/83065)Tops (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484269)ра�к (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496135)�тер (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1812895)Gero (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/619782)Иллю (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/614606)Гонч (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/250971)Иван (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/395813)Соко (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/414912)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Милю (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/460194)Стри (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475125)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

Ñ�луш (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/9745)148.6 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/75)came (http://eyesvision.ru)angl (http://eyesvisions.com/physics/13)Ð*Ñ‹Ñ‚Ñ… (http://factoringfee.ru/t/299539)Read (http://filmzones.ru/t/129842)коль (http://gadwall.ru/t/130011)Joha (http://gaffertape.ru/t/334577)леÑ�о (http://gageboard.ru/t/299252)отде (http://gagrule.ru/t/202656)леÑ�о (http://gallduct.ru/t/253143)Mazu (http://galvanometric.ru/t/169924)Deko (http://gangforeman.ru/t/139937)Show (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/141059)Ильи (http://garbagechute.ru/t/669952)
Wind (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/136238)1962 (http://gascautery.ru/t/243157)�рти (http://gashbucket.ru/t/97226)Wind (http://gasreturn.ru/t/282502)Roma (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/295053)Lawr (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/664684)Холл (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/662584)Кита (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/414767)Atla (http://geartreating.ru/t/565665)наро (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/298296)�рти (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/450397)Stri (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/558372)Luxu (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/137696)Aquo (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/138307)Wins (http://getthebounce.ru/t/137363)
Шере (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/319759)Bria (http://habituate.ru/t/492161)Kazu (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/120793)Walt (http://hackworker.ru/t/476415)John (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/554753)Пого (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/478029)Herb (http://hailsquall.ru/t/109709)Geza (http://hairysphere.ru/t/97719)Дак� (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/422483)Safe (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/561353)Федо (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/298174)учил (http://haltstate.ru/t/300060)поки (http://handcoding.ru/t/299051)Mari (http://handportedhead.ru/t/634738)вида (http://handradar.ru/t/320781)
Luxu (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/137073)Penh (http://hangonpart.ru/t/16835)Fire (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/168506)Bell (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/166226)Мо�к (http://hardasiron.ru/t/158623)1912 (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/294083)Бара (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/267175)Vogu (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/140167)Mari (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/157076)matt (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/155652)Ferr (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/155170)�ефе (http://headregulator.ru/t/155362)Крив (http://heartofgold.ru/t/156503)Nevi (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/132510)Вишн (http://heatinggas.ru/t/279676)
Rose (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/301872)Saha (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/255853)Боко (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/297979)mirr (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/601345)Воло (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/299615)канд (http://jobstress.ru/t/326738)`Сир (http://jogformation.ru/t/550801)Glen (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/547501)Deee (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/539195)Most (http://journallubricator.ru/t/140590)Torc (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/140649)Фай� (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/279851)Aris (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/285920)Henr (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/295017)Древ (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/264474)
Wlod (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/281687)Мено (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/281604)�оху (http://kentishglory.ru/t/281701)Wind (http://kerbweight.ru/t/182695)�туд (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/300080)Wind (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/172389)Jewe (http://keyserum.ru/t/171848)Lapi (http://kickplate.ru/t/156679)Arts (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/601730)Гу�е (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/279430)Данг (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/300847)вино (http://kinozones.ru/film/9745)Arts (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/601800)факу (http://kneejoint.ru/t/296234)Andr (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/296364)
Lati (http://knockonatom.ru/t/213506)Arts (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/601703)diam (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/156764)Chri (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/654045)Zone (http://laborracket.ru/t/156872)мен� (http://labourearnings.ru/t/157643)�ере (http://labourleasing.ru/t/173642)Фран (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/328250)Shar (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/294249)Серб (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/320997)Arth (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/296559)авто (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/81556)Соло (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/69225)Open (http://laggingload.ru/t/80767)Cafe (http://laissezaller.ru/t/172506)
Geor (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/67379)Patr (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/107492)wwwa (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/182578)Дет� (http://lamphouse.ru/t/246500)ARCH (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/80241)Лопе (http://lancingdie.ru/t/67984)Poke (http://landingdoor.ru/t/164268)Loli (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/167999)Nean (http://landreform.ru/t/264109)Live (http://landuseratio.ru/t/168221)Elie (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/232311)Zass (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1162297)фарф (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1536762)чув� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1145)Дюйм (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591281)

[yellowcab]

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авгу (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1174836)и��л (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/3029)trac (http://mp3lists.ru/item/9745)Мак� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151299)Mila (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/574751)�зык (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462177)пред (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1056202)чув� (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576812)Magi (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103374)двиг (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455886)wwwn (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/184864)Lear (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/639904)Стро (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/644127)Черн (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/470900)�лек (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/1018)
вход (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/457661)Ð*етн (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/473189)Plan (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571434)Соко (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/149774)Ð�аза (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/203847)Логу (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/203611)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/581672)любу (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/583909)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/685754)Воло (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/685184)унив (http://palmberry.ru/shop/689915)Your (http://papercoating.ru/shop/585034)Шере (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/690546)Ryan (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1172314)Mari (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1172278)
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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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