We have to start to stop this madness of killing!

[BornthatWay]

The horrendous day of Dec. 14, 20012 is still very much all our minds. I am not here to ban guns as the guns are not the problem. It has a lot to do with how we treat metal illness or lack of treatment and these video killing games that award points for the more you kill. Putting these two things together is a ticking timebomb.

I watched the View today and they had a forensic psychologist on and he said that guns and mental illness are not the real problem because both of these have been around for a very long time and it is only in the past 20 years that this type of violence has begun to escalate. Now I didi not agreee with everything he said but he did mention that the video games were a problem but that mental illness was not necessarily the issue. That I have to disagreee with. Because in 1970 the laws change about treatment of mental illness as people thought it was too inhumane. So if someone is psychotic they can only be held for a maximum of 72 hours and then they are free to go if they do not want to stay. I think there needs to be changes in how long a person needs to receive help and it needs to be done humanely but however it is best for the person who is ill.

We as individuals must also take some responsibility. If we see a child or know of a child that has trouble dealing with people then take an opportumity to at least acknowedge that child by speaking to them to let them know that we do realize they exist. If you have the time or desire to take a child like this under your wing to do somethings with them ask the parent if you could.

As parents we have to treat out children as human beings. We need to teach them to accept responsibility for thieir actions and not put the blame on someone else. This means that interaction must occur in the family. Just because both parents work does not mean that you cannot find time to talk with our children and give them postive feed back and creative outlets for their energy.

The most important thing is to stop this 24/7 coverage of the crimes. This is exactly what these types of people are wanting. It gives them the attention they could never get when they were alive. This is something we all have to think about because when we keep seeing these types of things over and over again it begins to make us think that things are worse than they are.

The psychologist on the view said that as long as they are getting coverage for these acts they will do it again. He feels that this guy chose kids because he knew this would get him much more attention than the killing inthe mall or at an employer as these are no longer played up in the media as they once were. I pray that he is wrong but I am so afaid he is right.

Again we as a society have to take some responsibility for these people as we often ignore people or children that apperar stange to us. We buy these very violent games and even though we say we do not let our children play them you just do not know what they are doing all the time, so if these things are not in our house then they cannot be an exposure to our children. The same goes for these magaizines about soldiers of fortune etc. Kids love to do the forbidden because it is exciting and they certainly are not going to talk to you about it as they know they are not supposed to be looking at ti.

NOw I know people do not have to agree with me on the points that I made but some how we need to solve this problem becasue if we do not the government is going to try to fix it in a manner that we do may not agree with.

I hope if nothing else this has given you some food for thought. I am asking if you respond to respond with ways that you think could help to solve the issue of such violent rage in people.

[Rick]

I don't disagree with you. I think there are other things tied in as well. For me, it would be straying from religion and a lack of involvement in our kids every day lives. But it's probably even deeper than that. It's just a fundamental change in society. And it's not just in the U.S. Every country has felt the pain regardless of the tool that was used.

We may never know the true and complete story but I doubt his mother thought him capable of such violence. Few parents do.

[RangerXanatos]

I agree. But I'd also like to add that I believe another large factor is that these people who have been doing these horrendous acts (who seem to all be pretty young males, most are 20's and younger) seem to have an attitude of entitlement, have been babied, and place the blame of their actions onto others. When those attitudes have been corrected, I think we would see a lot less of these acts of violence and lack of life sacredness.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

BornThatWay and Rick,

I agree with both of you in general, if not in all of the details. Its well past the time that we should have begun a long, hard, objective investigation into what's really going on. But, all too unfortunately, that's not the way we Americans tend to do things.

Its time to start doing it that way.

Ranger,

Again, I agree with you in general, if not in all the details. What you recommend would solve a good bit of the problem, long-term. But what about now, tomorrow, next week?

-- Nighteyes

[finallyME]

Whatever the solution, we need to make sure and not toss out the 1st and 2nd amendments to the constitution.

[Delta 5168]

Did I understand correctly? His mother bought all the guns in her name? Conn. shooter must have had some mental or legal history.

[crashdive123]

According to what is now being reported - the guns were hers. She took him to the range to shoot thinking that it would help him bond with her. He had recently been denied the purchase of a gun.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Whatever the solution, we need to make sure and not toss out the 1st and 2nd amendments to the constitution.

I agree. Recognize, though, that EVERYONE at this point is still reacting out of emotion and not reason. The most likely outcome of an absolute insistence that the Second Amendment should not be infringed is that we'll be locked out of the decision entirely. For the long-term good of gun-owners and the Constitution it may be preferable to make some short-term concessions, much like the original Assault Weapons ban.

-- Daniel (who has spent better than 40 years studying human behavior, academically and practically) Nighteyes

[crashdive123]

I agree. Recognize, though, that EVERYONE at this point is still reacting out of emotion and not reason. The most likely outcome of an absolute insistence that the Second Amendment should not be infringed is that we'll be locked out of the decision entirely. For the long-term good of gun-owners and the Constitution it may be preferable to make some short-term concessions, much like the original Assault Weapons ban.

-- Daniel (who has spent better than 40 years studying human behavior, academically and practically) Nighteyes

I couldn't disagree more with that (bolded part).

[Daniel Nighteyes]

According to what is now being reported - the guns were hers. She took him to the range to shoot thinking that it would help him bond with her. He had recently been denied the purchase of a gun.

Those facts first surfaced late yesterday. In terms of direct, real-world application, that means that he would have "slipped through" even the most stringent laws. The mother's purchases were legal in each and every sense. He tried and failed, and then resorted to theft.

This is truly scarey, folks, because it strongly implies (to the general public) that new and much stricter laws are needed. In my rather educated-and-experienced opinion, each and every one of us needs to exercise EXTREME sensitivity and EXTREME diplomacy when discussing this with non-gun-owners.

[Geek]

There wasn't recently a story about a NYC policemen buying a pair of shoes for a homeless man. Two weeks later the same man was found again without shoes. When asked what happened, he replied that the shoes were valuable so he had hidden them. Clearly, our mental health system is broken and it is serving neither the mentally ill, nor those they might harm, well.

Every one of the high profile mass shootings lately appears to have been committed by someone with serious mental illness. For someone to suggest this is not about mental illness is ridiculous.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I couldn't disagree more with that (bolded part).

I understand, Crash, and in other circumstances I would agree. I tend to think in long-term strategic terms. Strategically speaking, isn't it better to loose a battle (tactical) so one can win the war (strategic)? I'm talking, possibly, even beyond the end of my time here on Earth. The Assault Weapons Ban had a sunset provision, and it expired.

So that our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have and be able to exercise their full Second Amendment rights, would it not be better to accept a well-defined, short-term limitation, as a part of a long-term, permanent and far-less limiting solution?

I am (a) a lifelong gun owner, (b) a lifelong student of human behavior. and (c) a lifelong student of political/military strategy. In world history my viewpoint has been proven very, very many times.

But hey, what do I know? I'm only a slow-talking Alabama country boy.

[RangerXanatos]

[B]Ranger,

Again, I agree with you in general, if not in all the details. What you recommend would solve a good bit of the problem, long-term. But what about now, tomorrow, next week?

-- Nighteyes

Honestly, with the world we live in today, I don't think there is anything we, the government, religion, or anything mankind can do will stop the violence/hatred we have. We may be able to limit one kind, but another will soon take it's place. A lot like thermodynamics say things degenerate to disorder/chaos. We may be able to keep things in order/solved for a little while, but those bindings breakdown and disorder and chaos ensue again, perhaps worse or in another form. Governments, Empires and etc rise and fall. What I truly think is the solution, we have no control over and is not allowed to be discussed on the forum.

[RangerXanatos]

I'm not saying that we should just give up and let everyone run rampant and nor try to help those we can, but I see the world a lot like throwing a cup of water on a burning house...

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I'm not saying that we should just give up and let everyone run rampant and nor try to help those we can, but I see the world a lot like throwing a cup of water on a burning house...

Ranger, mi amigo, your statements - this one and the one above it - really bother me, primarily because I cannot find a single flaw in them.

[Rick]

It's a bit disturbing to me that many of our politicians are saying we must have a dialog about gun control. We've been discussing it for decades. We've even made some pretty solid decisions about it based on majority rule. That fact that it doesn't appeal to the minority will always be a point of contention. The fact is the "assault weapons" (whatever that is) ban will probably be reinstated in some form. It's sad but it will probably be the bone tossed to the other camp. Then attention will die down just like it always does when one tragedy or another occurs and the politicians will discourse eloquently how they negotiated some action for the betterment of all. I just hope they put a time stamp on it that's shorter than the last one and everything is grandfathered in. (Glad I got all my stuff even though I lost it all in the great canoe mishap).

[Daniel Nighteyes]

It's a bit disturbing to me that many of our politicians are saying we must have a dialog about gun control. We've been discussing it for decades. We've even made some pretty solid decisions about it based on majority rule. That fact that it doesn't appeal to the minority will always be a point of contention. The fact is the "assault weapons" (whatever that is) ban will probably be reinstated in some form. It's sad but it will probably be the bone tossed to the other camp. Then attention will die down just like it always does when one tragedy or another occurs and the politicians will discourse eloquently how they negotiated some action for the betterment of all. I just hope they put a time stamp on it that's shorter than the last one and everything is grandfathered in. (Glad I got all my stuff even though I lost it all in the great canoe mishap).

Are you SURE we aren't related? [<Big Dang Grin!>]

The "American Curse" is our simplistic, naive and narrow-minded focus on "The Simple, Quick Fix." It nearly put us out of business in the late 1980s/early 1990s, and it may well spell our doom now. Folks, this ain't a simple problem, and it ain't gonna be simply or quickly fixed.

"That's my opinon; oughta be yours." -- Syndicated Radio Humorist Red Neckerson

Regards to all,

-- Nighteyes

[Phaedrus]

Sadly it's not just the dreaded liberals this time. If it had been anyone but little kids...that just seems to short circuit the rational part of the mind, especially for parents. Even some conservatives can imagine their kids being the ones in that school. Yes, a "bone" probably will be thrown, and it will probably be some type of restriction on "assault weapons", even though the place where the shooting occurred already had draconian restrictions on exercise of the 2nd Amendment.

20 years ago I may have even been one of guys willing to make a concession on just the "evil" guns. But not now. I've seen that those attempts at appeasement only whet the appetites of those with a goal of total prohibition. I'm sorry if if I can no longer be reasonable in the face of those asking me to give up some rights so others can enjoy the illusion of safety.

I feel terrible for the families of all those kids, I really do. There are sick people in this world. That's pretty much why I own guns. I am gearing up for a fight. My hunch (and I'd love to be wrong) is that some knee-jerk legislation will be passed and it will suck. This week I will join the NRA. I hate to do it; in the last 20 years they've become a bunch of dirtbags IMOHO. But they're the devil I know, so I'll be rejoining them. Probably GOA, too. The latter group is smaller but they're one of the very few to realize that giving the anti-gun lobby concessions is just like 24/7 news coverage for shooters- it just encourages further bad behavior.

[jfeatherjohn]

The mental health system is in shambles. WI actually puts a ton of energy (and money) into s system that is known around he world. The bottom line is, when a client disappears, its very hard to find them, and many times, when you do, they are in a jail.
I was the psych nurse in the old horseshoe intake in Phoenix (Maricopa County Jails). Our computers were linked with the County mental health provider, with a "matching" system. Every morning I wound get a list clients who had been booked. After I checked what hey were booked for, I would start calling the various team to get history on these clients. What I heard regularly was, "Oh thank God he'
s safe. He missed his appointment three weeks ago, and we've combed he steets for him."
Some of the crimes were pretty serious. But, we finally found them a home.
Point is, even in Wisconsin or other places that have helpful systems set up, I isn't easy.
So "gun laws" are just a diversion so the real issues aren't faced.
That young fellow who shot Congresswoman Gabby was KICKED OUT of the Pima Community College District because they decided he was dangerous, yet the Pima Cty Sheriff and Tucson PD had no record of contact with the College regarding this fellow.
If the States won't beef up their mandatory reporting laws, and enforce them, then the Fed need to step up; that is something that can be done fairly quickly.
JFK was hit 3 times in rapid succesion via a bolt action rifle; the assault rifle ban is pure stupidity.
Off rant.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

The mental health system is in shambles. WI actually puts a ton of energy (and money) into s system that is known around he world. The bottom line is, when a client disappears, its very hard to find them, and many times, when you do, they are in a jail. I was the psych nurse in the old horseshoe intake in Phoenix (Maricopa County Jails). Our computers were linked with the County mental health provider, with a "matching" system. Every morning I wound get a list clients who had been booked. After I checked what hey were booked for, I would start calling the various team to get history on these clients. What I heard regularly was, "Oh thank God he's safe. He missed his appointment three weeks ago, and we've combed the steets for him." Some of the crimes were pretty serious. But, we finally found them a home. Point is, even in Wisconsin or other places that have helpful systems set up, it isn't easy.

As a former mental health professional I have to say that the leadership in dismantling the American Mental Health System, so that today it is in the chaotic condition it presently is, belongs to then-California-Governor Ronald Reagan. As California leads, other states follow. This is a fact, btw, not a political position.

Pre-Reagan, the California Mental Health System was THE benchmark for other states. I know this because, as a then-Alabama resident and a fledgling mental health professional, I could cite the names of all the leading and most progessive mental health institutions -- and nearly all of them were in California. Today, and ever since the late 1970's, that is no longer the case. Today they're in Europe or Asia. Once again a fact, not a political position.


So "gun laws" are just a diversion so the real issues aren't faced. That young fellow who shot Congresswoman Gabby was KICKED OUT of the Pima Community College District because they decided he was dangerous, yet the Pima Cty Sheriff and Tucson PD had no record of contact with the College regarding this fellow.

The same, essentially, is true of Seung-Hui Cho, who perpetrated the Virginia Polytechnic shootings in 2007.

Folks, the fact that I TALK slow doesn't mean that I THINK slow. And by now you should all know that neither do I succumb to the propaganda-of-the-day.

[ElevenBravo]

I dont exactly have stable residents in my household, thus all bang bangs are locked in a SAFE, not a gun "locker" or "cabinet", a real SAFE. Alibit not a big one, nor an expensive one, but it would still take a small war head to open it.

Ive taken my steps to prevent my firearms from being used in a manor which they were not intended.

The guy got the gun from somewhere.... From where? From whom? THAT person holds as much responsibility for the tragedy as does the trigger man IMHO.

No need to toss 2A to the curb.... but holding the OWNER of said weapon used in aggressive actions would go a LONG way to preventing future problems.

Though, I realize it is not just as "simple as that"... There are other concerns that need to be addressed, but impeding the law abiding citizen from ownership of a weapon of there choosing is not the solution.

Andrew

[crashdive123]

but holding the OWNER of said weapon used in aggressive actions would go a LONG way to preventing future problems.

In this particular case - the owner was "held accountable". She was shot and killed by her son who went on to kill many others.

[canid]

I suspect this was the result rather of the direction of involvement in this young man's early life. Something seems to have made him hate childhood an his mother, and his early home life is where I would start looking.

[Cast-Iron]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those killed and those survivors now forever scarred by this tragedy. I just don't see how you will ever end random acts of violence thru legislation. Perhaps arming and training some number of staff within the safe zones of America's public schools would offer greater deterence and a last line of defense. Even a less than lethal weapon might have saved many of the victims in this particular instance.

[ElevenBravo]

Perhaps arming and training some number of staff within the safe zones of America's public schools would offer greater deterence and a last line of defense.
Dont know about outside my little space, but here in Virginia we call them School Resource Officers. In Roanoke City & County, each school as an assigned, armed, sworn, real to life police officer.

Curious, if this school had the same?

I know in just Roanoke County, there already has been a few potential incidents that have been thwarted by the SROs. (In my previous life, I was a corrections officer for seven years, you get a lot of back stories that never make it to the media).

Andrew

[BENESSE]

Placing gun control and mental illness off the table, we can start guarding schools the way we guard Fort Knox. Yes, it will cost more, but which one of the parents who just lost a kid wouldn't have given his last penny to have his child back? There is always something we can do.

[deafdave3]

BornThatWay and Rick,

I agree with both of you in general, if not in all of the details. Its well past the time that we should have begun a long, hard, objective investigation into what's really going on. But, all too unfortunately, that's not the way we Americans tend to do things.

Its time to start doing it that way.

Ranger,

Again, I agree with you in general, if not in all the details. What you recommend would solve a good bit of the problem, long-term. But what about now, tomorrow, next week?

-- Nighteyes


I agree. Recognize, though, that EVERYONE at this point is still reacting out of emotion and not reason. The most likely outcome of an absolute insistence that the Second Amendment should not be infringed is that we'll be locked out of the decision entirely. For the long-term good of gun-owners and the Constitution it may be preferable to make some short-term concessions, much like the original Assault Weapons ban.

-- Daniel (who has spent better than 40 years studying human behavior, academically and practically) Nighteyes


Those facts first surfaced late yesterday. In terms of direct, real-world application, that means that he would have "slipped through" even the most stringent laws. The mother's purchases were legal in each and every sense. He tried and failed, and then resorted to theft.

This is truly scarey, folks, because it strongly implies (to the general public) that new and much stricter laws are needed. In my rather educated-and-experienced opinion, each and every one of us needs to exercise EXTREME sensitivity and EXTREME diplomacy when discussing this with non-gun-owners.


I understand, Crash, and in other circumstances I would agree. I tend to think in long-term strategic terms. Strategically speaking, isn't it better to loose a battle (tactical) so one can win the war (strategic)? I'm talking, possibly, even beyond the end of my time here on Earth. The Assault Weapons Ban had a sunset provision, and it expired.

So that our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have and be able to exercise their full Second Amendment rights, would it not be better to accept a well-defined, short-term limitation, as a part of a long-term, permanent and far-less limiting solution?

I am (a) a lifelong gun owner, (b) a lifelong student of human behavior. and (c) a lifelong student of political/military strategy. In world history my viewpoint has been proven very, very many times.

But hey, what do I know? I'm only a slow-talking Alabama country boy.


Ranger, mi amigo, your statements - this one and the one above it - really bother me, primarily because I cannot find a single flaw in them.


Are you SURE we aren't related? [<Big Dang Grin!>]

The "American Curse" is our simplistic, naive and narrow-minded focus on "The Simple, Quick Fix." It nearly put us out of business in the late 1980s/early 1990s, and it may well spell our doom now. Folks, this ain't a simple problem, and it ain't gonna be simply or quickly fixed.

"That's my opinon; oughta be yours." -- Syndicated Radio Humorist Red Neckerson

Regards to all,

-- Nighteyes


As a former mental health professional I have to say that the leadership in dismantling the American Mental Health System, so that today it is in the chaotic condition it presently is, belongs to then-California-Governor Ronald Reagan. As California leads, other states follow. This is a fact, btw, not a political position.

Pre-Reagan, the California Mental Health System was THE benchmark for other states. I know this because, as a then-Alabama resident and a fledgling mental health professional, I could cite the names of all the leading and most progessive mental health institutions -- and nearly all of them were in California. Today, and ever since the late 1970's, that is no longer the case. Today they're in Europe or Asia. Once again a fact, not a political position.



The same, essentially, is true of Seung-Hui Cho, who perpetrated the Virginia Polytechnic shootings in 2007.

Folks, the fact that I TALK slow doesn't mean that I THINK slow. And by now you should all know that neither do I succumb to the propaganda-of-the-day.

YOU, sir... are an extremely intelligent man. Bravo.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Sadly it's not just the dreaded liberals this time.

Ah-hem! I happen to be one of those "dreaded liberals", and a quick review of my posts will unequivocally demonstrate where I stand on the Second Amendment.

"Liberals" aren't the enemy here. In fact, AFAIK, there are no "enemies" other than us -- just like Pogo once said (and has been quoted untold thousands of times).

We would ALL (Conservative and Liberal alike) do well to entirely abandon this needless, useless, ineffective, binary, reptile-brained good/bad, right/wrong, Left/Right, black/white, live/die way of looking at the world. We're ALL Americans, for goodness' sake, and we should be working TOGETHER to find common ground instead of engaging in all of this needless/useless self-righteous bickering!

To my colleagues on this Board: Do you want a democratic, majority-rule solution? The truth is that we're a minority here. Unless we can find a way to constructively insert ourselves into the process as equal and helpful partners (thereby exerting some positive, constructive influence on the outcome), we're about to get just that -- a majority-rule solution.

Yell, and rant, and "cold-dead-fingers" all you want. Just understand that, each time you do these things, you're pushing more and more of the undecided middle into the Anti-Gun camp. We don't have all that many friends now, and we're losing them day by day, tragedy-by-tragedy.

-- Nighteyes (a 43-year student of human and group behavior)

[WolfVanZandt]

The world, as Steven King said, is moving on. I sorta hope we aren't past the point of no return but the world is turning into a mean, dark place.

I watched Blade Runner again the other night. The story was set in 2018. We're there. The buildings might not be as big and we might not be flying around instead of driving, but the world is getting just as gritty and mean.

It's not the laws.

Just a little while back, people relied on each other to survive. We don't have to do that any more - our technology deals with all that. We can be individuals. We don't need anyone else........we think. Everybody else is really parts of us. We don't realize it but, when we hurt anyone else, we hurt ourselves and we don't even know where the pain is coming from.

I'm amused that people are so inspired by Van Halen's "Humans Being" - "Shine on, shine on." Heh, do they ever listen to the lyrics?

People kill other people because they don't value the other people's lives. It's mental illness, for sure, but it's a very, very common disease. Most psychologists/sociologists will admit that we live in a sick society. You're not going to cure the disease by applying laws/treatments to individuals. At bottom, it's not the sickness of people that is the issue, but the sickness of society.

We can turn it around but it has to start with people and move outward. Whether you're Christian or not, the model is the church. You have to form and recognize an expanding family of people who's lives work. They form a core for other people to see what works. When they see what works, they'll want some of it. There's enough to go around.

It's going to soon become the norm for people to look around and see that there is nothing that works. When they no longer see any happiness or joy in life, they'll stop valuing the world. Then they won't care who are what they destroy because none of it matters anyway. That's where we're going.

[BENESSE]

Yell, and rant, and "cold-dead-fingers" all you want. Just understand that, each time you do these things, you're pushing more and more of the undecided middle into the Anti-Gun camp. We don't have all that many friends now, and we're losing them day by day, tragedy-by-tragedy.

-- Nighteyes (a 43-year student of human and group behavior)

That is precisely the mindset that lost us the election and the mindset that will drive us into a ditch we won't be able to climb out of next time. Better get on the ball, folks, 2016 is not that far off.

[Seniorman]

" ... So that our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren will have and be able to exercise their full Second Amendment rights, would it not be better to accept a well-defined, short-term limitation, as a part of a long-term, permanent and far-less limiting solution?"

I am (a) a lifelong gun owner, (b) a lifelong student of human behavior. and (c) a lifelong student of political/military strategy. In world history my viewpoint has been proven very, very many times.

But hey, what do I know? I'm only a slow-talking Alabama country boy.

I disagree very strongly with your idea that we must "compromise" with those who have one object and one object only: the eventual banning and confiscation of all firearms from us worker peasants.

Here is the dictionary's definition of "compromise."

"A settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions, or gives up something to the other." American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

Here is how the "far left liberal progressives," "compromise."

They say, "You gun owners must give up all your guns to us."

We say, "No, no way are we going to give you all our guns."

They say, " Well, you must compromise."

We say, "In what way?"

They say, "You must give us your evil semi-automatic guns."

We say, "Uhh, a 'compromise' means that both parties agree to give up something. What are you good "far left liberal progressives," going to give up?"

They say, "Nothing. That's how we compromise."

We say, "Oh. Uhhh, well, I suppose that is a square deal."

They say, "Yes it is. By the way, we'll be back tomorrow for another 'compromise.'"

Daniel Nighteyes, as you are a student of Human Nature and behavior, history, and political power, I am surprised you do not understand just what "they" mean to accomplish. They never, ever, disengage.

There are already over 22,000 anti-guns laws on the books, Federal, State, and Local where "compromises" have been made over the years. Another "compromise" with the anti-gun "far left liberal progressives," will accomplish nothing, other than to continue to slice away, incrementally, at our Rights, Freedom, and Liberty.

BTW, I was born in a small Alabama town, and later raised in a tiny rural town in north central Arkansas. Guess I am just a slow talkin' country boy too, so what do I know? ;)

S.M.

[BornthatWay]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I simply wanted us to understand that many things are involved in this issue. We must think long and hard about these issues and use our logic and not our emotions to solve the issues. As gun owmimg citizens wanting our 2nd amendment rights conyinued then we must present our reasoning in logical order and not emotionally or we will loose the battle for sure. If we are continued to be thought of as wanting guns for guns sake then we might as well turn our guns in now. We have to present our thoughts logically and cuncisely and realize there are many things involved in this idea of gun control besides the hatred of guns by those who want to get rid of guns.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

YOU, sir... are an extremely intelligent man. Bravo.

I'd like to think so, mi amigo. Muchos gracias for the compliment.

[deafdave3]

I'd like to think so, mi amigo. Muchos gracias for the compliment.

Eh bien, vous avez tout à fait bienvenue, mon ami. Si ce n'était Facebook, je vous envoyer une demande d'amis.

You're quite welcome, my friend. If this was Facebook, I'd send you a friends request.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I disagree very strongly with your idea that we must "compromise" with the who have one object and one object only: the eventual banning and confiscation of all firearms from us worker peasants. ...

Daniel Nighteyes, as you are a student of Human Nature and behavior, history, and political power, I am surprised you do not understand just what "they" mean to accomplish. They never, ever, disengage.

BTW, I was born in a small Alabama town, and later raised in a tiny rural town in north central Arkansas. Guess I am just a slow talkin' country boy too, so what do I know? ;)

Seniorman, mi amigo,

I see that you completely underestimate this Alabama Country Boy! Like I said before (and as you, of all people, should understand), the fact that I talk slow doesn't mean that I think slow. What you stated of the "Opposition" (my abject apologies for using this unflattering and actually inapplicable term, but for the moment it works) is merely their opening position. That they hold and believe in this position does not demonize them; rather, it humanizes them. This, I think, is a point that's been sorely missing in much of this "debate".

This is neither the place nor time to "take you to school" on the fine art of negotiation, or the even finer art of truly understanding the "opposition" and validating their viewpoint, even though we disagreee. Particularly in terms of human/Constitutional rights & obligations, and especially when one is in the minority, to demonize or discount the opposition is the direct pathway to LOSING.

Why can't people understand that?

-- Nighteyes

[le Metis]

I hope if nothing else this has given you some food for thought. I am asking if you respond to respond with ways that you think could help to solve the issue of such violent rage in people.

We need better methods of socializing males at an earlier age starting at the Middle School level. What I feel is needed, are rites of passage into adulthood and citizenship with ordeals of physical and mental challenges. Currently, both adulthood and citizenship in this society consist of nothing more then the attainment of a driver's license, and a birthdate. Passing these ordeals would earn the right to vote, the right to marry, the right to bear arms, the right to a higher education, the right to a passport, and the right to serve in the military branch of choice among others.....

[BENESSE]

We need better methods of socializing males at an earlier age starting at the Middle School level. What I feel is needed, are rites of passage into adulthood and citizenship with ordeals of physical and mental challenges. Currently, both adulthood and citizenship in this society consist of nothing more then the attainment of a driver's license, and a birthdate. Passing these ordeals would earn the right to vote, the right to marry, the right to bear arms, the right to a higher education, the right to a passport, and the right to serve in the military branch of choice among others.....

What we need is peace time draft. No exceptions for fallen arches or any kind of disability. When you feel like an active member of society, working with your fellow countrymen and women toward the same goal of protecting your country you'll feel far less like an outsider looking in. There is less empathy now and less camaraderie among people in general. That's because we don't share common values any more nor are we capable of focusing on any cause bigger than ourselves.

[Williepete]

Well some very fine comments here, I can agree with most and disagree with one major comment. we can not throw them a bone, it would not do any good. To my way of looking at this problem it is a simple thing of following the 2nd amenment as it is written, "NO INFRIGEMNET" period.

The main problem that I see has not even been mentioned here, and that is to do away with all the GUN FREE ZONES. Isn't that where all these things are happening? My wife came out in the kitchen the other night after watching some of the news, and starting ranting "Why didn't some body just shoot him down?" Because its a GUN FREE ZONE.

Bil

[deafdave3]

What we need is peace time draft. No exceptions for fallen arches or any kind of disability. When you feel like an active member of society, working with your fellow countrymen and women toward the same goal of protecting your country you'll feel far less like an outsider looking in. There is less empathy now and less camaraderie among people in general. That's because we don't share common values any more nor are we capable of focusing on any cause bigger than ourselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by, "peace time draft." Please explain.

[Phaedrus]

Ah-hem! I happen to be one of those "dreaded liberals", and a quick review of my posts will unequivocally demonstrate where I stand on the Second Amendment.

"Liberals" aren't the enemy here. In fact, AFAIK, there are no "enemies" other than us -- just like Pogo once said (and has been quoted untold thousands of times).

We would ALL (Conservative and Liberal alike) do well to entirely abandon this needless, useless, ineffective, binary, reptile-brained good/bad, right/wrong, Left/Right, black/white, live/die way of looking at the world. We're ALL Americans, for goodness' sake, and we should be working TOGETHER to find common ground instead of engaging in all of this needless/useless self-righteous bickering!

To my colleagues on this Board: Do you want a democratic, majority-rule solution? The truth is that we're a minority here. Unless we can find a way to constructively insert ourselves into the process as equal and helpful partners (thereby exerting some positive, constructive influence on the outcome), we're about to get just that -- a majority-rule solution.


I'm not sure how much you read these forums lately, but if you read them much you'll probably notice that I too am one of the "dreaded liberals"; that's why I used the ironic phrasing. I guess we have another thing in common- I'm also 43. At any rate, the rest of your post pretty much restates my opinions. But while I advocate being reasonable, I don't advocate compromise on the 2nd amendment. I will be reasonable, meaning polite and respectful, but I'm afraid this is a binary issue to me and you can be sure it's a binary issue to the anti gun elite cogniscenti.

Take this as an example. You're walking out of a store and are accosted by store security. It seems a $10,000 watch is gone and someone claims they saw you take it. A search of your person shows you didn't and don't have it. So the guard offers you the reasonable option of paying for only $5,000 of the value of the missing watch. You protest that you had no part in it and refuse to pay anything at all. This is the scenario with gun control advocates, yet in this bizarro-world scenario, people expect us to be reasonable and chip in maybe $3,000.

This will sound very hard and heartless, and perhaps it is. The nature of forums and the limits of my eloquence will probably make it even worse. But here it is: 1,000 children could have been shot and it still wouldn't change my opinion. Don't misunderstand; my heart aches. I can't even read about the event it pains me so much. But I didn't take the watch, and my money isn't going to get it back for them. Taking my guns won't bring a single child back or save the life of another. You can take 5,000,000 rifles and it won't change what one man did with one (or pistols, I don't know what the media says today).

Freedom is a terrible burden at times, perhaps almost too heavy to bear. But we must bear it or not. If we can't, then we don't deserve it. Maybe we're reaching the threshold as a society where we don't want it anymore. Heaven help us if that's the case.

As a liberal, I think the problem is that we've created a mercenary society where we don't value each other anymore, we're just a dollar sign on a ledge, only good for what the rich can milk from our blood. The economy has become a wealth pump, pushing a torrent of 60% of the nations wealth uphill into the hands of the 1% that call all the shots. The money isn't being invested in the country and it's people any longer. It's being laundered and stored offshore to the tune of about $80 Trillion dollars. Companies are raided for their equity and sold as scrap. Iconic brand names are purchased and production farmed out overseas. The middle class is shrinking. The next generation almost certainly will have it worse than their parents, the inverse of the American Dream. We've created a dangerously large mass of citizens with little stake in society and nothing to lose.

That's why I won't be "reasonable" in the way you probably mean. I won't sacrifice any freedoms in a futile attempt to balm the grief of a handful of families. It simply doesn't do any good, never had and never will. We simply can't afford to take the irrational yet emotionally satisfying route of transferring our failings as a society onto inanimate objects.

[Winnie]

Well, I live in a country that had such a knee-jerk reaction to a mass shooting as your govt is contemplating. Our Firearms laws were tightened to such a point where it's practically impossible to obtain a licence.
Now, in the last twenty odd years since the first of these mass killings in Hungerford in the '80's there have been several others. All of them carried out by lawful gun owners and all of them were completely fruitloop. This pretty much proves the theory that it doesn't matter how strict Firearms laws are, a mad person will do what he does regardless. The control should be of these lunatics, not their weapon of choice. Just my 2p's worth.
I have no idea what the answers to preventing these terrible tragedies from happening are, I do believe that the fall of a structured family and population mobility plays some part. Few people know their neighbours anymore, and families are splintered and live miles apart.

Edit: As for making concessions. Don't do it! A reason will be found to write it permanently into law and the slow erosion of your Gun ownership will have begun.

[Williepete]

I understand that Australia has basically gone the same way as England. Is that what we really want in this Country? I sure don't want that for my Grandchildren. I have one GS that is an avid hunter and a GD who has started hunting with her Dad. We can not give an inch or as Winnie says, we will lose out.
Winnie , what is the real story on the crime rate over there? I have see some news where the ER docs wanted to outlaw butcher knifes, any truth to that? I'm still sorry that I missed seeing you at the jam. I'm doing real good with my recovery through.

Cheers
Bill

[Faiaoga]

I'm not sure what you mean by, "peace time draft." Please explain.

I do not want to get off the topic, but I think that Bennese has a good point concerning comon values and empathy. A "peace time draft" is probably not the correct term to use. A "national service" program might be a better idea for helping youth become integrated into society and become productive. It need not be military service but it could be conservation work, social work or some similar activity and such service could be a requirement for scholarships and help with job training.

As a school teacher, I am ashamed to admit that compulsory education has largely failed in providing integration and deveoping common values. I never served in the military, but I know that military service has helped some peoploe where school did not. My Peace Corps (Western Samoa) service provided me with useful experiences and allowed me to live and work with other people and experience another culture. National service or "peace time draft" could be similar.
Faiaoga

[Winnie]

Pete, our Nanny state has gone bonkers. I cannot carry ANY knife with a blade over 3 inches in public. I cannot carry a fixed blade, or lock knife of any length in public The beautiful knife Crash gave me at the Jamboree, I can only use at home. The penalty for carrying an illegal knife/ dangerous weapon(oh yeah! they have that covered too! No metal nail files or anything that could be construed as a dangerous weapon) is up to 4 years imprisonment and up to £5,000 fine.
See link.

https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife

The problem we have in UK is we are a small country (think a small US state) and as such violent deaths and crime are reported countrywide. I have just looked up the homicide rate per capita and the UK statistic is 1.2 Homicides per 100,000 citizens, USA has 5 per 100,000 citizens. These numbers are based on 2009 findings.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc
So relatively speaking we have a lower homicide rate than you, but it is more sensational because of the small area in which these happen.

Anyhoo, that's neither here nor there, I still have nothing but contempt for the crazies who perpetrate these crimes and my heart goes out to the families who have lost a child under such terrible circumstances.

[le Metis]

What we need is peace time draft. No exceptions for fallen arches or any kind of disability. When you feel like an active member of society, working with your fellow countrymen and women toward the same goal of protecting your country you'll feel far less like an outsider looking in. There is less empathy now and less camaraderie among people in general. That's because we don't share common values any more nor are we capable of focusing on any cause bigger than ourselves.


A "peace time draft" is too little, too late. Middle School must be the start point, where they are just starting the process of leaving their childhood behind and starting on the path to becoming adults.... know that there exist at this moment in time great age appropriate programs that could be tapped into. A short list would include COPE, Outward Bound, NOLS, and BOSS. Plus these programs can grow additional wings with community support and involvement programs.

[Solar Geek]

One of the first things they teach you in criminal law and oddly enough, corporate law classes, is that you CANNOT prevent a determined evil person from wreaking havoc on yourself or company. Fraud will occur despite the greatest safeguards. Wicked people will shoot others no matter how many police are in place.
That said, you can put in place options to slow the criminal or to spot the crime more quickly (wish we had that machine on "Person of Interest" that spots problems before they blow up!) Evil exists in the world and whether we want to excuse it or try to stop it is the determining factor.

We were living in IL when Laurie Dann wreaked havoc on 2 schools and 3 families. SHE was evil walking. (I include the recent article below. Please read it). Nothing in my mind excuses shooting children then or now. It is one of society's biggest taboos and every religion and institution makes clear it is beyond the pale.

A little later and after 9/11, I was on a small Wisconsin school's council for 3 years and my biggest accomplishment was getting the school to recognize the need for lockdown procedures, to close up the access points from the parish (it was attached to a church) and to get the kids to practice lockdown. We too had windows at the front door. But we made them bullet-proof glass, a buzz-in lock system, doubled the entryway to make anyone breaking in have to go thru 2 sets of windows and doors and thus slow them down, and closed off the doors to the parish. HUGE outcry by parish members and staff (including the pastor). I was vilified, yelled at and gossiped about. I was called paranoid, etc. I didn't care. My kids were there and we had just come from a much older school (again attached to a parish) that had instituted even stronger lockdown/safety measures after Laurie Dann.

Methods short of Fort Knox do exist to make our kids safer (again, you can't completely stop all evil in the world). The problem is NOT guns, but easy access to targets by those trying to cause harm. IMHO, IF only the efforts and funds now diverted to the hue and outcry against guns were used to "harden" schools, many of these tragedies could be avoided. But a simple locked door will not do it.
Here is the article on Laurie Dann - it is eye-opening and chilling.

In May 1988, the Chicago area witnessed its own horrific tragedy involving a killer stalking elementary school students.

Laurie Dann, a 30-year-old baby sitter with a history of mental illness, engaged in a violent spree on May 20th that left one elementary student dead and five others wounded. It could have been much worse.

Dann began that day by delivering arsenic tainted Rice Krispie treats and arsenic tainted juice boxes to a number of families for whom she had baby sat. She made more deliveries to a group of Northwestern University fraternity houses -- Dann lived on campus for a time but never enrolled in school. She was known to date some fraternity members. Many believe Dann was trying to exact retribution against individuals she felt had wronged her.

After her visit to Northwestern, she drove to the home of a family in Winnetka where she once had baby sat, the Rushes. Dann picked up the two youngest Rushe children and drove them to Ravina Elementary School in Highland Park, had them wait in her car while she entered the school and detonated a weak fire bomb in the school hallway.No one was hurt at Ravinia, and the fire was quickly extinguished.

She drove the boys back home, herded them into the basement with their mother and set fire to the home, using gasoline as the accelerant. The family escaped harm.

Next, Dann drove to Hubbard Woods School in Winnetka armed with a .22 caliber Beretta pistol and a .357 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver. That's where she did her most damage.

Dann wandered the elementary school with the weapons accosting students. She shot a boy in the stomach in a school lavatory and then shot wildly into a second grade classroom, where she killed 8-year-old Nicholas Corwin and wounded five others.

Dann fled the school, crashed her car, and, wearing only a garbage bag around her waist, entered the home of Phillip Andrews, 20, and held the Andrews family hostage for six hours.

Ultimately, Philip Andrews convinced Dann to let his family go. He then tried to disarm her and was shot in the chest.

Dann retreated to the upstairs of the Andrews home, placed her revolver in her mouth and pulled the trigger.

Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Remembering-The-Laurie-Dann-Spree183533341.html#ixzz2FPoAHSBI

[oldsoldier]

I don't really think that any kind of gun ban is now or has ever been the answer. If someone knows where to look you can find anything you want. From illegal porn, to drugs to fully automatic weapons and explosives. So a ban would be usless with millions of weapons out there. IMHO what is needed is a change in the thinking of many people who when they hear "personality disorder" or "treated for depression" or whatever, they immediatly say it wasn't the attackers fault because they are/were "sick" so we can't blame them. therfore they don't want to give them the sentencing they deserve. just a slap on the wrist for it.

[jfeatherjohn]

Solar, you did what I was only thinking. Slow the madman down; a three foot fence will do that.
But lets try to stop them before they get to the fence.
In AZ, Court Odered Treatment will not be sustained in court unless the person has made overt suicidal or homocidal gestures. In WI, they have he "fifth criteria", which means if Docs can show that all roads are leading to a cliff for that person, they can get the court order.
If we can't stop them, we must be able to slow them down, at the school door, if that becomes necessary.

[Seniorman]

DANIEL NIGHTEYES - "... What you stated of the "Opposition" (my abject apologies for using this unflattering and actually inapplicable term, but for the moment it works) is merely their opening position. That they hold and believe in this position does not demonize them; rather, it humanizes them."

Uhhh, that seems to this country boy a little too abstruse.

Are you saying that because the "oppostition" -- who actually call themselves "Democrats," "liberals," and/or "progressives," -- humanize themselves by having a gun confiscation (eventually) position? And that we "conservatives" "demonize" them by referring to them as what they call themselves? Perhaps I was a bit rash in labeling the anti-Constitution gun grabbers "Democrats, liberals, and progressives." Probably should have used a more appropriate word, "Socialists." :laugh:

By the way, the word "progressive" is used quite often in the writings of Marx and Lenin, and I don't mean Groucho and John. Millions of people who were considered "not progressive" and "politically incorrect" were either stood up against the wall and shot, or sent to balmy Siberia for a lifetime of "work shall make you free" vacations. Lenin and Stalin did not mess around with "non-progressives." Nor did Mao, Castro, Che, Kim Jong Il, and their like ilk.


D.N. - " This is neither the place nor time to "take you to school" on the fine art of negotiation, or the even finer art of truly understanding the "opposition" and validating their viewpoint,... "

Now Daniel, that strikes me as being rather condescending. Of course, as you said, you're a "liberal," and it seems to me that condescension is standard for liberals when talking down to "the rabble." Being a forgiving sort myself, I however, take no affront. :D

I will say I certainly appreciate your magnanimous offer to "school me" in the future on the fine art of negotiation. But I must decline as I've had some experience previously negotiating with some of the most dedicated negotiators you might have met. You know, the smiling "killer lawyers" wearing Armani suits, Seville St. custom shoes, and Patek Philippe watches. (None of those pedestrian Rolex watches for those ol' boys.)

I have spent nearly 50 years working with and for "liberals, or "progressives," or Socialists, or whatever. I am at least somewhat cognizant of how they think, and what they hope to eventually achieve politically here in the U.S. One goal is the disarmament of the people, or, "worker peasants" as they think of us. Liberals are so superior in intellect, wisdom, and education, they always know exactly what is best for the "unwashed rabble," don't you know?

As far as they being in the majority, (???) and we constitutionalists being in the minority, I still reject your admonition that we compromise, compromise, compromise with them.

That, to me, is the road to the loss of all our Rights, Freedom, Liberty, and private property.

As far as gun owning "liberals" or "progressives" go, I know many who own firearms but support the "strict control" of those owned by the "worker peasants." I used to have lunch with a man who said his politics were "to the left of Fidel Castro's." He was 100% serious of what he said. Then we'd go to the Beverly Hills Gun Club in Los Angeles and fire away for the afternoon. He owned many guns.

Of course, in the "liberal progressive" crowd, hypocricy often seems to have no bounds, does it?

Anyway, that's my take on the current situation.

S.M.

[crashdive123]

I know it's tempting, and that passions run high on the subject - please stay away from the left/right - liberal/conservative. If you cannot do that, then move on to another topic.

[BornthatWay]

Solargeek I agree that having the best protection for children is school is vital and I also agree that we are not going to stop every nut that falls out of the tree butif help for those with mental illness had more options available and their parents or loved ones to get them the help they need we could also cut down some that have fallen out of the tree. We need to help people understand that wether they make these rifles outlawed if someone wants one they will get it.

The important thing is if we can make a difference as a nation to improve the care for those with mental illness and or disorders we have certainly done something to honor these 20 little lives that became heroes on Dec. 14, 2012 and got rid of one more scum then many good things have come out of this ordeal.

Alan Lanza does not need to be discussed or mentioned as that would be giving him and all the others like him what they want.

May God loving arms be wrapped tightly around these young children that lost their lives. And may God have a special place in heaven for the teachers and teachers aides who died that day as heros doing all they could to save those little children.

[WolfVanZandt]

Hmmmm......I think Lanza needs to be discussed. Didn't I hear that he had no past history of mental illness or legal problems?

It strikes me that in these reports of serial killers, there's always neighbors, friends, and family members expressing surprise when they find out that this quiet, unassuming, nice person has been killing people. In order to treat people, they have to be identified and ill.

Further, psychopathy, as far as I know, doesn't have a "treatment". You might be able to convince a psychopath to avoid their destructive behavior but, once they start on that path.......probably not. Schizophrenia? Well maybe, but the problem there is that there are compelling reasons to stop taking the medicine necessary to keep them stable.

First, you don't have to be mentally ill - certainly not in a clinical manner - to be a serial killer or mass murderer. You simply have to not value others' lives and be ticked.

Second, I'm not so sure mental illness is the problem, anyway. I've worked with a lot of mentally ill people with all kinds of diagnoses and just the fact that they're mentally ill doesn't seem to predispose them to go out and start killing people. In fact, it doesn't do justice to people with mental illnesses to assume that they need to be "controlled" in order to protect society. The vast majority of people with mental illnesses are not a danger to society. I would hate for society to decide that people with mental illnesses needed to be "controlled" in some way in order to protect society, but with the human penchant toward witch hunts, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[Wildthang]

Well I was reading last night that this guys mother was a prepper, and am now wondering how much bad publicity this is going to bring to people that like to be prepared. There were comments on how she was stockpiling ammo, food, and weapons. This incedent may bring bad press and suspicion to all preppers on top of gun ban laws as well.
As bad as this terrible crime was, I am hoping the press moves on to other things as fast as it normally does, like as soon as something else newsworthy happens. This was a rerrible crime and something needs to be done, but there is no simple answer and pointing fingers at preppers and gun owners is not the answer. I think the media is our worst enemy, and most of the guys that do these crimes crave the media coverage they know they will get, and I think that will never go away. I think the desire to kill people is not nearly as important to this type of person as the media coverage that comes afterward. So will they outlaw media coverage, absolutely not, will they give all preppers a bad name, probably, and outlawing assult rifles will not stop these crimes.
That kids mother is the culprit for not getting proper help for her son, and exposing him to firearms when she knew he was mentally unstable. And she should have had her guns locked up as well. She is absolutely as guilty as her son, it is too bad that so many innocent children had to pay the price. There are no good answers for stopping this kind of crime because theoretically this crime could have been performed with a couple of Glocks and a semi automatic shotgun just as easily as with an assult rifle.
This crime is not good for preppers, firearm owners, and at the expense of young children. It just dont get any worse than this!

[Rick]

Just some random thoughts from a random guy.

Did you know that Chicago, which has one of the toughest gun laws in the nation is statistically more dangerous for an American than Afghanistan? Each year they surpass the previous year's murder rate. I find it difficult to understand why folks can look at Chicago's number and not conclude that gun control does not work.

If the anti-gun folks want to impress me they can put a sign in their yard that says:

Attention Criminals
We do not believe in owning guns
There are no weapons inside our home

I know they won't do that because they understand what the potential ramifications might be. Some criminal might just take them up on it. Yet, when you put a sign in front of a school or any other public building that says, "Gun Free Zone", you've just told the criminal the very same thing.

I don't want armed guards in our schools but our society has evolved to the point that I think it's necessary. If staff want to conceal carry then train them the same as police, have them qualify just like policy and let them carry. We are talking about protecting the most precious thing any of us have on this earth....our children.

Why are all the anti-gun folks waiting for Congress to do something? Why aren't they championing a resolution by asking their school board to harden their facilities, reduce the possibility that children can be targets, regardless of what type of weapon is used, and agreeing to fund it?

Why does the President want to look at "mass shootings"? What the heck is that? Does that imply that killing 1 or 2 kids is okay? Why isn't he concerned about looking for a solution for school violence of any type? I guess I'm confused on this one.

[BornthatWay]

Rick I do not think you are the least bit confused. This incident has brought many questions to the forefront. It is a sad time in America when we have to lock our children in school and have armed guards and possible teachers carrying guns as well. We have a socety that has changed so drastically in the last 40 yrs. We have so many parents that choose to not interrupt their lives to raise their children in a loving environment and to not care about anybody but themselves. We no longer have people living close to faimly to have that extended family connetion that has forced people to beconme more isolated and not desire to know what is going on in their neighborhoods. We have so many that are so fascinated by guns and not in a healthy way. So I see no easy answers to solve these problems and quesitons.

I guess if this incident causes enough people to sit down and talk about these things in a logical way and not by emotions only we have come a long way in this process. We cannot solve all these things by knee jerk gut reactions it will take time. However right now many people want to find some short term solutions until we can work this all out.

As far as people diagnosed as a psycho path or sociopath perhaps they do need to be in a more controlled invironment as they do not have the consience to stop them from committing these types of acts. Yes there are those that will do these things without this diagnosis but I can assure you that if they get caught before they commit suicide they are going to play the psychological card. How many of these people are able to fool the pshchologist into thinking they are crazy?

I do understand that not all people with psychological problems are going to do bad things and we do not need to hide the "crazy" relative in the closet anymore. We just need to make help for people with psychological issues easier to access and not so limited on insurance policies. If you have diabietes they do not diagnose you and then say well after 30 days we are not going to pay for your treatment or for you to see a doctor about your disease.

Insurance companies are going to say they cannot afford to offer this form of pshychological coverage without a significant increase in the cost of a policy and there is the rub for why so many cannot get the help that they need. That is why dental and eye care are not covered under your normal health policy.

Perhapws we need to look at how some other countries are handling psychological needs in their society. There are many other countries that are industiralized nations and do not have the problems we seem to have with what we have just faced in this country so at least talking with theem cannot hurt.

[Wildthang]

I think it will take our entire society to fix this problem, and the only problem with that is that Americans no longer stick together on anything. They are all too consumed with their own little world to watch the big picture. If we all banned together in identifying potential lunatics, we all banned together to protect our children, and we all banned together to defend each other when a mass murderer begins to harm us, it would probably get better.
We as a society have lost our ability to ban together and fight together. I am not talking about the military I am talking about the average citizen!

[jfeatherjohn]

Wow, people are ticked off.
As a former mental health professional, I am now keeping my firearm on the end table until I go to bed.

[WolfVanZandt]

I do understand that not all people with psychological problems are going to do bad things and we do not need to hide the "crazy" relative in the closet anymore. We just need to make help for people with psychological issues easier to access and not so limited on insurance policies.

That is absolutely the case.

What I'm saying, though, is that better mental health services won't even start to fix the problem. Wildthang hit the nail right squarely on the head.

[letslearntogether47]

That is absolutely the case.

What I'm saying, though, is that better mental health services won't even start to fix the problem. Wildthang hit the nail right squarely on the head.

I disagree,
Ever try to get a relative help?
One that doesn't want help and thinks you're the one that's crazy?
Can fool and lie to so called professionals when being interviewed?
Go to court and testify???
My brother wieghs close to 300 lbs and is over 6 ft.He is diagnosed as paranoid scitzophrenic.(i'm not even looking up that spelling)
It took over 1/2 a police force to take him down one night.Full moon,no meds for weeks(his choice).Thought the moon was giving him instructions.He is a teddy bear when he takes his meds.
Trust me,they can be EXTREMELY dangerous.

[Winter]

"

The carnage has compelled many observers to examine the possible reasons behind the rise in mass murder. New York Times columnist David Brooks noted the number of schizophrenics going untreated. Gun control advocates have pointed to the 2004 expiration of the federal assault weapons ban as the culprit, while gun-rights proponents have argued that the body counts would be lessened were more Americans armed and ready to intervene and overtake an active shooter.

There is one not-so-tiny flaw in all of these theories for the increase in mass shootings. And that is that mass shootings have not increased in number or in overall body count, at least not over the past several decades.

(…)

Without minimizing the pain and suffering of the hundreds of who have been victimized in seneless attacks, the facts say clearly that the has been no increase in mass killings, and certainly no epidemic. Occasionally, we have witnessed short-term spikes with several shootings clustering close together in time."

From http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/are-mass-shootings-really-on-the-rise/

The media and politicians are manipulating the tragedy for ratings and justification for their existence.

[Rick]

Dang good article Winter. Thanks for posting that. I hadn't see it before.

[WolfVanZandt]

We need better mental health care, but it's not going to prevent the serial killers and mass murderers.

[letslearntogether47]

Newtown, CT – Some of the stylists who used to give Adam Lanza haircuts have said interacting with the young man was “uncomfortable,” according to The Associated Press.

Although stylist Bob Skuba and his colleagues used to cut Lanza’s hair every six weeks, the man said Adam rarely spoke to the stylists or made eye contact with anyone at the shop. In fact, his mother would answer any questions the staff posed to the youngster.




I would say, ‘Adam, come on.’ He wouldn’t move,” Skuba explained. “And his mother would have to say, ‘Adam, come on, he’s ready.’ It was like I was invisible.”

The stylist said that Adam Lanza never had any interaction with the stylists while receiving his haircuts. Skuba added that the young man spent most of his time looking at the ground.

According to the Daily Mail, stylists said they originally thought Adam Lanza and his family had moved away. Apparently the boy hadn’t been in to get his haircut by stylists in over a year.

[rebel]

Oops. Wrong thread.

[Seniorman]

WINTER - "The media and politicians are manipulating the tragedy for ratings and justification for their existence. "

They always do. In addition, their manipulation is to further their political agenda.

S.M.

[natertot]

I say we treat guns like cars. Back in the 80's and into the 90's, drunk driving was crazy. Through EDUCATION and TRAINING, drunk driving took a nose dive. After said firearm training, you get a firearms license. As long as you have a firearms license, you may buy, sell, trade, barter firearms AND ammunition. Free to do so as before, just make sure the person has the license. It would prevent private sales to those who shouldn't have them such as felons, pyschs, etc.

Next on the agenda, schools (and other gun free places) should allow for volunteered staff to carry with the proper training for using it in the said environment.

Finally, beef up how mentally ill is treated. That has already been covered well here so I would beat the drum again.

[hunter63]

From http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/are-mass-shootings-really-on-the-rise/

The media and politicians are manipulating the tragedy for ratings and justification for their existence.

Nailed it....and the reason I haven't said much.

The whole shooting of kids thing has made me sick....but not near as much as the continual bombastic of the media, and people with the own agendia to press....and so many seem to have a tip off of what was to come(?), judging by the flurry of perpared statements, new bills, and general organized band-wagoning.....

Lately the fall out of that continuous coverage is resulting of the traumatization of kids everywhere....local news story of a 16 year old wrote a will before going to school.....

In respect to the victims, their families, first responders and any one else that had to deal with the horrific situation....I will simply add my thoughts and prayers....

Bad things happen to good people.

[Rick]

You guys know I'm pretty easy on politicians but I sure think Winter is right on this one. When the President paused and wiped his eye I almost hurled. They need me in the Senate. I might only last 4 years but they'd know I'd been there.

LLT - If my mom made me go to a stylist I probably would say anything either. I'd probably wear a hat pulled real low and hoped no one that knew me saw me. Just sayin'......

[BENESSE]

LLT - If my mom made me go to a stylist I probably would say anything either. I'd probably wear a hat pulled real low and hoped no one that knew me saw me. Just sayin'......

His mom also got him out on the shooting range to play with her arsenal. The family that shoots together, stays together. Just saying'...

[crashdive123]

She also, according to media reports (so don't know the accuracy of the claims) was planning/seeking information on the committal process for him. If that is true, and she did not have her weapons locked up - she (RIP) shares a great deal of the responsibility of what happened.

[2dumb2kwit]

Just to keep things in perspective, let's look at some numbers. While people are calling "mass killings" an epidemic, the numbers are actually small, compared to other "normal" things. While throwing fits, to ban certain guns, people are not mentioning things that kill far more children, than guns kill. Just an example....even as much as drunk driving has been reduced, in the last 20 years, there are still 21 children (Under21 years old) killed every week, due to drunk driving. That's right, 21 children killed every week. Not just this week, but EVERY WEEK. Let's look at another stat. Around ten times more children die in swimming pools each year, than are killed by guns. Why are people not screaming for us to ban swimming pools? Let's look at another stat. High school football. Did you know that twice as many high school kids are killed playing football, than are killed by guns? Where are the people screaming to ban football?

My point, in all this, is that we should not be fooled by people claiming to be trying to save children. If they were, they would be going after many things, before they even think about guns. These people are using the death of innocent children to further their agenda. I find this sickening, but even if you agree with their agenda, try to get people to agree with you on merit....not on emotion brought on by dead children. That is just disgusting.

[BENESSE]

My point, in all this, is that we should not be fooled by people claiming to be trying to save children. These people are using the death of innocent children to further their agenda. I find this sickening, but even if you agree with their agenda, try to get people to agree with you on merit....not on emotion brought on by dead children. That is just disgusting.

They are doing it on BOTH sides...so you can selectively choose to be disgusted all you won't. While everyone's engaging in urinary Olympics, Rome's burning.
After it's all said and done, more has been said than done.

[Winter]

I don't think there's anything to do.

Coach Gault, in my JR High School, carried a gun every day and taught gun safety. In PE class, we had to qualify with bb guns and archery for a grade.

Our society has built a regulatory safety net that doesn't work. People, knowing this safety net is there, take less and less personal responsibility for their own well being.

The result is a softer and gentler society and a bunch of easy victims. There's no justification for these killers, but if you are a human and lack the basic instinct and ability to protect yourself and your family than you are also in a position impossible to justify.

The fearless warrior is now seen as a dumb barbarian unnecessary in our society. Well, if that warrior is not there, nothing is there to stop these "monsters".

If there's anything we could do, it would be to quit trying to behave, as a species, as if we are more intelligent and civil then those that came before us. Violence and a fear of violence are oftentimes the answer.

[Warheit]

America embraces the most violent culture (celebrated in almost every aspect of our being) in the entire world. Until that changes, things like this will happen. I think Daniel and FeatherJohn are absolutely 100% correct in their comments regarding mental health (the system, access, etc.) in America. Thanks to you two for pointing this out!

Additionally, I disagree with the comments on here saying that a "stray away from religion" is partially due in part to this. Principles of morality and ethics existed long before organized religion did. Besides, there is a high link between religion and violence in the first place. "Godlessness" in society isn't a primary factor in advent of these crimes. FWIW, crimes like this (violent crimes, gun related, etc.) are down from the levels they were happening over 5 decades ago. With the advent of social and mass media, we just here more about it.

I do agree with what a poster said about parents not being involved enough in the lives of their kids, their kids friends and the general neighborhood. Instead of taking on the responsibility of parenting, they have sloughed it off to the informality of the next great tech gadget on the market. That much is very true to see. Was at a small gathering the other night at a local establishment and saw 10 families sitting down with their dinners. There were ~ 60 people at the tables. All but a handful of them (5-7) were on their mobile devices while trying to have a "family" moment. Sad and pathetic.

[Seniorman]

NATERTOT - " As long as you have a firearms license, you may buy, sell, trade, barter firearms AND ammunition. Free to do so as before, just make sure the person has the license."

Uhhhh, no.

Where does it state in the Second Amendment that "... the Right of the People to keep and bear arms, so long as they have a government issued and approved license, shall not be infringed"?

Be aware that for every license of any kind, the Government (and unelected, mindless, faceless bureaucrats) makes regulations and rules for that license to be issued. If the Federal Government were to pass a law requiring all firearms owners to obtain the Government issued "gun owner" license, you can bet the farm that the "requirements" would become increaingly more difficult to overcome by law abiding citizens.That's the way the anti-guns crowd operates.

Unfortunately, criminals do not bother to obey laws. That is why they are called "criminals."

Nope, no Government license to exercise an inalienable and Constitutional Right.

S.M.

[BENESSE]

Nope, no Government license to exercise an inalienable and Constitutional Right.
S.M.

Not putting you on the spot, just asking...
Does this mean, for those who can afford it, anything the military has, we can have as well, such as Surface to Air Missiles?

[canid]

I'll field that one if nobody objects.

[BENESSE]

Please, C...

[Geek]

America embraces the most violent culture (celebrated in almost every aspect of our being) in the entire world.


I have to disagree with that one. In Pakistan the Taliban are killing healthcare workers, including fellow Muslims, who are trying to give polio vaccinations. Our culture certainly includes violent movies and video games, but it isn't the most violent culture. We're not even close.

[canid]

Under the current body of the constitution via the 2nd amendment, that is exactly, precisely and unequivocally the state of the law. Leglislation which contravenes it can not by definition be lawful.

Wishing it different and arbitrarily Legislating against it can not make it less true, and is not a valid way to approach any reform which might be necessary.

[BENESSE]

So is that a yes, to my question, C?

[canid]

As a point of law, Yes.

[2dumb2kwit]

As a point of law, Yes.

I agree.

Just as the first amendment isn't limited to certain words, the second amendment isn't limited to certain "arms".

[canid]

Indeed. I'm sure I don't actually want my neighbor owning Patriot missiles (or whatever comparable arms anybody might actually sell him, or he might manufacture), the laws which currently say he may not are at odds with the one which is currently the ultimate and fundamental law of the land. That's no way to run a body of legislature.

[BENESSE]

So then, those with a $hitload of money can afford more "rights" vs. the Ist Ammendment where everyone has equal rights regardless of $.
Interesting and interestinger.

[canid]

No, that is a fallacy. There is a substantial distinction between those right we are all guaranteed and the resources to afford to exercise. We all have the right to drive a gold plated Rolls Royce. We do not all have the means to do it.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yep....you have the right to own property. Some can afford Trump Plaza....some, a single wide on a 100'x100' lot.

[BENESSE]

No, that is a fallacy. There is a substantial distinction between those right we are all guaranteed and the resources to afford to exercise. We all have the right to drive a gold plated Rolls Royce. We do not all have the means to do it.

Apples and oranges.
A constitutional right should not be contingent on resources.

[canid]

Apples and apples, as both examples demonstrate the same principle. It is not the right which is constrained by or contingent upon the personal store of resources but the means. Whether you can afford the arms or not, the car or not, your right to have it is unaffected. This will readily reduce to a political-philosophical argument to address your late point, but there's not much point in that here.

[BENESSE]

Apples and apples, as both examples demonstrate the same principle. It is not the right which is constrained by or contingent upon the personal store of resources but the means. Whether you can afford the arms or not, the car or not, your right to have it is unaffected. This will readily reduce to a political-philosophical argument to address your late point, but there's not much point in that here.

Lets apply that to the 1st amendment and see how it plays...
Whether you can afford ($$$) to say what you want or not, your right to say it is unaffected.
I don't like how that sounds...not one bit.

[canid]

But it is the way things are. One poor man may voice himself to a single person in person, or a rich man may voice himself to a million by commercial mass media. That is one reason I value the Internet so highly. It does much to work around that problem. It is an exercise of that right even to the extent that none of us needs buy a plane ticket to have this conversation, and the rest reading can see it form home. It doesn't care that print and televised media are so expensive, it is affordable to most and free to many.

[BENESSE]

But it is the way things are. One poor man may voice himself to a single person in person, or a rich man may voice himself to a million by commercial mass media. That is one reason I value the Internet so highly. It does much to work around that problem. It is an exercise of that right even to the extent that none of us needs buy a plane ticket to have this conversation, and the rest reading can see it form home. It doesn't care that print and televised media are so expensive, it is affordable to most and free to many.

Huh?
That shouldn't even enter the conversation. We're talking pure rights as conceived by the Founding Fathers before the media, the internet and all sorts of new fangled other things which have no bearing on the amendments. I'm just trying to stay on point as laid out by our constitutional purists.

[canid]

Sure it should, it's exercise of the right. Before media? How so? Mass media abounded during the revolutionary period. In point of fact, we're talking about rights as described in law, without respect to period except where it's considerations apply directly. For the purpose of my point, they do not at all. Were we discussing an amendment which guaranteed the right specifically to use a quill and parchment, or the right to keep and bear muskets and swords, this would be a different matter.

It is not whether or how they bear on the Constitution, but how it bears on them. Were it otherwise, we would be afforded the right to no things no possible on or before 4 March, 1789, or those not directly borne upon by subsequent amendments. Again, the only way around that except where they are ambiguous is to change it.

[BENESSE]

Thing is, "we" don't treat the 1st & 2nd amendment rights equally (apples to apples) in the way they were conceived...as I think we should, if we're ever going to have a meaningful dialogue. Whereas we believe that anyone has the right to own, if they have the $$$, any firearm & weapon of mass destruction (per your earlier confirmation*), we vilify individuals with $$$, clout & therefore pulpit, for their right to say anything we disagree with.
If we can't be intellectually honest and dispassionate, we will continue to have circular arguments that invariably end in a ditch.


*

Does this mean, for those who can afford it, anything the military has, we can have as well, such as Surface to Air Missiles?


As a point of law, Yes.

[Rick]

Since I'm the official MATDDTDHOJ (Mayan After the Dooms Day That Didn't Happen Opinion Judge) I'm keep tally of all the opinions on here. B you owe me about $4.20. Most of those are invalid. 2D. Just send in your next paycheck.

[BENESSE]

Since I'm the official MATDDTDHOJ (Mayan After the Dooms Day That Didn't Happen Opinion Judge) I'm keep tally of all the opinions on here. B you owe me about $4.20. Most of those are invalid. 2D. Just send in your next paycheck.

Know what? I'll give you $10 'cause I ain't finished.:sneaky2:

[WolfVanZandt]

If we can't be intellectually honest and dispassionate

I suspect that's a myth, that people can be intellectually honest and dispassionate. I don't think humans are wired for that.

Still, I'm not so sure that we always feel great about who's able too afford the big artillery, it's just the way our society is wired.

A lot of "liberals" tout the great goodness of freedom of speech, but there are always the buttons you can push to make them fly into a rage.

I'm not so sure we handle the 1st and 2nd amendments that much differently.

[BENESSE]

A lot of "liberals" tout the great goodness of freedom of speech, but there are always the buttons you can push to make them fly into a rage.


That applies to all people, not just liberals.
Freedom of speech is great when you get to say what you want and terrible when someone else does whom you abhor.
Still...sticks and stones, and all that...

[WolfVanZandt]

Which is one reason I placed it in quotes. And......


Freedom of speech is great when you get to say what you want and terrible when someone else does whom you abhor.
Still...sticks and stones, and all that...

indeed.

[2dumb2kwit]

Huh?
That shouldn't even enter the conversation. We're talking pure rights as conceived by the Founding Fathers before the media, the internet and all sorts of new fangled other things which have no bearing on the amendments. I'm just trying to stay on point as laid out by our constitutional purists.

OK. Let's look at Back then. Let's say that two men have opposing views, and each wants people to see things their way, for an up coming referendum. One man is a poor illiterate farmer, the other a well educated wealthy business man. They each have the right to tell people what they think, but which one do you is a more affective speaker? They both have the right to have pamphlets printed. Let's say the farmer can afford to have ten printed......the wealthy business man can have enough printed to put one in the hands of every person who could read. Heck....he might even hire a Ms. "B", to get his point across. The rich man can spend every minute of every day, getting his point out, while the poor farmer tries to get his crops in, so he can eat all winter. Heck, the rich guy may have owned the news papers, in those parts and had all his "reporters" write articles that called his ideas correct, influencing whole towns.

Need I go on?

[2dumb2kwit]

Since I'm the official MATDDTDHOJ (Mayan After the Dooms Day That Didn't Happen Opinion Judge) I'm keep tally of all the opinions on here. B you owe me about $4.20. Most of those are invalid. 2D. Just send in your next paycheck.

I see. I get charged so much, because the opinions that I express are the opinions of so many.:drink:

[BENESSE]

I see. I get charged so much, because the opinions that I express are the opinions of so many.:drink:

...Of so many in your circle.
That's why I'm here...trying to EXPAND my circle by getting to hear all sorts of POVs. For me, preaching to the choir is not stimulating and not likely to teach me anything new. That's where we differ.
Hey, but I still love you, even though you make my hair hurt, every now and then.:winkiss:

[Seniorman]

Getting back to my objection (Post # 75) to being forced to obtain a license from the Government to utilize my inalienable Right to own firearms, it is imperative in a discussion to understand that the instant an inalienable Right, expressed specifically in the U.S. Constitution, is licensed, it no longer is an inalienable Right, but becomes nothing more than a Government granted privilege by politicians and their unelected bureaucrats. Any Government granted privilege is instantly revokable at the whim of politicians.

Along those lines, consider the fact that the Most Inalienable Right of human beings, is the Natural Right to one's own life and to defend oneself (and family) against vicious criminals who would steal that life (or injure an innocent person). Given that in such a situation the most effective weapon is a firearm, by licensing gunowners, the Government has effectively forced a citizen to beg for permission from Government to save his, her, or family's lives.

That is totally unacceptable.

To argue that the First Amendment is somewhat invalid because rich people can effectively "speak" to far more people of their "ideas" through the use of their "big bucks" is invalid and enhances "class warfare." The First Amendment rejects restricting free speech and press. They are not a "privilege," they are a Right." A poor person can speak or write all he wants, just as can the rich person. Just because the poor person can not reach as many people as he wants, has nothing to do with his First Amendment right, nor the right of the rich person.

As much as I abhore a MegaMillionaire Marxist using his/her $$$$$$$ to try and destroy our Constitution and Rights, I still do not want any licensing or resrtictions of his/her Right to do so.

Anyone who advocates licensing gunowners should be aware that once a license (tax) system is in place, it soon thereafter becomes more and more expensive to obtain that license and then renew it every year. As usual with politicians and bureaucrats, more and more restrictions could and would be added in the future. Of course, in addition, then every single honest gun owner is registered with the Government as a "gun owner." ("We know who you are and where you live.")

I say again, "No!"

S.M.

Merry Christmas to all and best wishes for a Happy and Healthy New Year.

[Warheit]

I have to disagree with that one. In Pakistan the Taliban are killing healthcare workers, including fellow Muslims, who are trying to give polio vaccinations. Our culture certainly includes violent movies and video games, but it isn't the most violent culture. We're not even close.

Meanwhile in America, we are planning our next drone strike that ends up decimating a few civilian houses and racking up a couple dozen casualties. No big deal. I guess after being fully engaged in the affairs of sovereign nations on a full-scale military (and covert operations) level for decades on end now, you kinda get numb to the harm we do around the globe.

[BENESSE]

That's what moral high ground does, Warheit.

[2dumb2kwit]

Meanwhile in America, we are planning our next drone strike that ends up decimating a few civilian houses and racking up a couple dozen casualties. No big deal. I guess after being fully engaged in the affairs of sovereign nations on a full-scale military (and covert operations) level for decades on end now, you kinda get numb to the harm we do around the globe.


That's what moral high ground does, Warheit.

Yet, if someone talks of the second amendment being about the ability to protect yourself from that same Gov't, they are looked at like they are crazy. Many can't believe they would ever need that protection. Which one is crazy?

[BENESSE]

Yet, if someone talks of the second amendment being about the ability to protect yourself from that same Gov't, they are looked at like they are crazy. Many can't believe they would ever need that protection. Which one is crazy?

Don't know who you're referring to but I hope it's not me because I don't believe there's anything crazy about it.
I was under the impression (in the text you quoted) that we were talking about interfering in other sovereign nation's bidness.
What does that have to do with our 2nd Amendment, pray tell?

[Dolphin]

What we need to get rid of is not the guns, it is the media. I believe this boy did what he did because of the attention and 'fame' he knew he would get from the media afterward. When the media stops blowing up these kind of stories maybe the people will get other ideas. After Columbine it seems like these copycat crimes have exploded in popularity. It's sad that these things happen but banning weapons is not going to stop the sale of them and it is not going to stop people that want to do this from doing it. Getting any weapon is much easier illegally than legally and it will always be that way.

[2dumb2kwit]

Don't know who you're referring to but I hope it's not me because I don't believe there's anything crazy about it.
I was under the impression (in the text you quoted) that we were talking about interfering in other sovereign nation's bidness.
What does that have to do with our 2nd Amendment, pray tell?

Sorry I'm so late answering, B. I missed this one, somehow.
My point was that our Gov't doesn't mind doing those things to other sovereign nations, so I don't think it is much of a stretch to think they would do those same things to us. Thus the need for the 2nd amendment.

[crashdive123]

This is worth watching.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU24i3Th27U

[WolfVanZandt]

Absolutely........and I would bet you anything that we, as a people, are not going to follow his advice. We're just going to try to keep on addressing superficial issues that will never get at the bedrock problems.

[cowgirlup]

This is worth watching.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU24i3Th27U

That was so good! I'm glad he took control of the interview and got to say what needed to be said.

[Psalm25]

Honestly, with the world we live in today, I don't think there is anything we, the government, religion, or anything mankind can do will stop the violence/hatred we have. We may be able to limit one kind, but another will soon take it's place. A lot like thermodynamics say things degenerate to disorder/chaos. We may be able to keep things in order/solved for a little while, but those bindings breakdown and disorder and chaos ensue again, perhaps worse or in another form. Governments, Empires and etc rise and fall. What I truly think is the solution, we have no control over and is not allowed to be discussed on the forum.


I'm not saying that we should just give up and let everyone run rampant and nor try to help those we can, but I see the world a lot like throwing a cup of water on a burning house...

X2. Its not going to get any better folks. I personally am religious and everything the bible says has lined up so far, and it is only going to get worse. But even looking at from a non religious view anyone with open eyes can see it is not going to get better. This is how I see it:

Take a look at the world population clock: http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ Now take a look at world stats:

http://www.worldometers.info/

Now read this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/nov/11/thisweekssciencequestions1

What it all comes down to is a struggle. The Governments fighting for power and people fighting to survive. The Governments are not stupid, they know exactly how much they are spending and they know the more people, the less resources there are. There are only so many tree's to be cut, only so much land to grow and raise food, only so much fish that can be gathered from the Ocean without impacting reproduction (which already has been grossly impacted)

Compare a village to a town and a town to a city. What one has more crime? What one is the closest community helping each other?

Put two people together and enough food and water for two people in between them.... they will share equally.
Put a group of people together with enough food and water for each in between them and they will share, but argue who gets what.
Put a mass of people together with enough food and water for each in between them and they will fight over it to get the most they can.

Greed for the most part is human nature. That is the small picture... not getting into the big picture.

[BENESSE]

That's all been true since the dawn of man. It's the ebb and flow of life and humanity.
Adversity always looks worse when you live through it but walking down memory lane of history will quickly remind you that there's more to be grateful for than you realize.

[Psalm25]

There is much to be grateful for... no argument there... but the world has never been even slightly close to being this populated and struggled this hard to produce food without killing off all resources. There has always been plenty of food available and easily replenished all thru history... but that is becoming no longer the case.

[ryaninmichigan]

Is it bad to say we need about 3 billion less people on the planet? When do we out grow our enviorment?

[Psalm25]

Is it bad to say we need about 3 billion less people on the planet? When do we out grow our enviorment?

I don't think it is bad to say we need about 3 billion less people... to try and control it is what would be bad. It is not when do we out grow our environment... we already have. It is just a matter of time now before what is left runs out. I would guess another 15 years or so... maybe less. Just a guess on that one.

[Pale E O]

Those facts first surfaced late yesterday. In terms of direct, real-world application, that means that he would have "slipped through" even the most stringent laws. The mother's purchases were legal in each and every sense. He tried and failed, and then resorted to theft.

This is truly scarey, folks, because it strongly implies (to the general public) that new and much stricter laws are needed. In my rather educated-and-experienced opinion, each and every one of us needs to exercise EXTREME sensitivity and EXTREME diplomacy when discussing this with non-gun-owners.

I couldn't agree more. Please, learn to tone it down. Otherwise you are ONLY preaching to the choir. The point is, issues of mental health need attention as they apply to public safety. This question of what to do to prevent children from being targeted is NOT an easy one. Personal rights will be affected. Rights vs responsibilities is always a balancing act and perfect solutions are seldom part of reality.

[Pale E O]

Fantastic interview. Thanks.


That was so good! I'm glad he took control of the interview and got to say what needed to be said.

[Geek]

I'd like to hear that guy go through some of the others he has studied. I'd like to see where these incidents are the same and where each one is unique. Good interview.

[Warheit]

Mother Earth is unsustainable due to the # of people and how much resources we are using. Has nothing to do what was said in the Bible.

[crashdive123]

I listened to him this morning on a radio interview (Bill Bennett) while on my trip to Gainsville.

[Psalm25]

Mother Earth is unsustainable due to the # of people and how much resources we are using. Has nothing to do what was said in the Bible.

I talks about it all in the bible. Scripture says the day will come when a loaf of bread will cost a days wage.

[crashdive123]

Please leave the religious discussions for other forums or venues. Thank you.

[Psalm25]

Please leave the religious discussions for other forums or venues. Thank you.

Sorry Crash, was just answering a question. But I agree it is off topic of wilderness survival, won't happen again.

[Psalm25]

^Just realized this topic is in general chat. For some reason I had thought it was general survival.

[welderguy]

Instead of starting another thread I figured I would just post this here. In an Adult mature fashion, show me documented proof that a HIGH CAP mag band lowers crime, lowers the body count of a shooting, helps to keep guns out of peoples hands that shouldnt have them.

Keep your personal feelings, thoughts and uninformed comments out of it. ONLY DOCUMENTED PROOF!!! links are a must or its BS.

[welderguy]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied the "assault weapon" ban and other gun control attempts, and found "insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence," noting "that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness." A 2004 critical review of research on firearms by a National Research Council panel also noted that academic studies of the assault weapon ban "did not reveal any clear impacts on gun violence" and noted "due to the fact that the relative rarity with which the banned guns were used in crime before the ban ... the maximum potential effect of the ban on gun violence outcomes would be very small....

In 2004, a research report submitted to the United States Department of Justice and the National Institute of Justice found that should the ban be renewed, its effects on gun violence would likely be small, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement, because rifles in general, including rifles referred to as "assault rifles" or "assault weapons", are rarely used in gun crimes. That study by Christopher S. Koper, Daniel J. Woods, and Jeffrey A. Roth of the Jerry Lee Center of Criminology, University of Pennsylvania found no statistically significant evidence that either the assault weapons ban or the ban on magazines holding more than 10 rounds had reduced gun murders. However, they concluded that it was "premature to make definitive assessments of the ban's impact on gun crime," and argue that if the ban had been in effect for more than nine years, benefits might have begun to appear.

Research by John Lott in the 2000 second edition of More Guns, Less Crime provided the first research on state and the Federal Assault Weapon Bans. The 2010 third edition provided the first empirical research on the 2004 sunset of the Federal Assault Weapon Ban. Generally, the research found no impact of these bans on violent crime rates, though the third edition provided some evidence that Assault Weapon Bans slightly increased murder rates. Lott's book The Bias Against Guns provided evidence that the bans reduced the number of gun shows by over 20 percent. Koper, Woods, and Roth studies focus on gun murders, while Lott's looks at murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assaults. Unlike their work, Lott's research accounted for state Assault Weapon Bans and 12 other different types of gun control laws.

The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence examined the impact of the Assault Weapons Ban in its 2004 report, On Target: The Impact of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapon Act. Examining 1.4 million guns involved in crime, "in the five-year period before enactment of the Federal Assault Weapons Act (1990-1994), assault weapons named in the Act constituted 4.82% of the crime gun traces ATF conducted nationwide. Since the law’s enactment, however, these assault weapons have made up only 1.61% of the guns ATF has traced to crime. "A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) stated that he "can in no way vouch for the validity" of the report.

!!!!

[natertot]

Instead of starting another thread I figured I would just post this here. In an Adult mature fashion, show me documented proof that a HIGH CAP mag band lowers crime, lowers the body count of a shooting, helps to keep guns out of peoples hands that shouldnt have them.

Keep your personal feelings, thoughts and uninformed comments out of it. ONLY DOCUMENTED PROOF!!! links are a must or its BS.

Check out the sites of the brady campaign and MAIG. What more documented proof could you want?

[welderguy]

did you actually read the last post I made.

The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence examined the impact of the Assault Weapons Ban in its 2004 report, On Target: The Impact of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapon Act. Examining 1.4 million guns involved in crime, "in the five-year period before enactment of the Federal Assault Weapons Act (1990-1994), assault weapons named in the Act constituted 4.82% of the crime gun traces ATF conducted nationwide. Since the law’s enactment, however, these assault weapons have made up only 1.61% of the guns ATF has traced to crime. "A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) stated that he "can in no way vouch for the validity" of the report.

[welderguy]

Here is the list of weapons that were in the 1994 ban. this way everyone knows that under this ban it wasnt always an ak or an ar or a uzi with a 100 round mag.
Now do you honestly think that these are the only weapons criminals have and use for crimes?

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine.
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 amended Section 921(a) of title 18 of the United States Code to define semiautomatic assault weapons and specifically named the following nineteen (19) semi-automatic firearm models and/or model types, as well as any copies or duplicates of these firearms, in any caliber, as assault weapons.
Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies AK-47 (all models)
Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI
Action Arms Israeli Military Industries Galil
Beretta AR-70 and
SC-70
Colt AR-15
Fabriqué National FN FAL
FN LAR and
FNC
MAC-type handguns, including MAC-10
MAC-11
MAC 11/9 and
MAC-12
Steyr AUG
INTRATEC TEC-9
TEC-DC9 and
TEC-22
Revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and
Striker 12.

[prariewolf]

Look at big pharmacutical..They pay Millions if not billons out thru their capital hill boys (+ girls ) ....If a medication can make you suicidal it CAN make you HOMOCIDAL ...IMHO...The media doesn't want to lose their advertisemers...The politicains don't want to lose their campain contributions and the Gov't (FDA ) doesn't want to lose their pay-offs.....

[letslearntogether47]

Maybe we should work backwoods and reverse engineer this problem.
So let's start with madness.

[welderguy]

Maybe we should work backwoods and reverse engineer this problem.
So let's start with madness.

I always mad about something now days does that count.

[BENESSE]

I always mad about something now days does that count.

Not if you enjoy it. :sneaky2:

[welderguy]

Not if you enjoy it. :sneaky2:

well ok,then I got nothing!

[LowKey]

However, they concluded that it was "premature to make definitive assessments of the ban's impact on gun crime," and argue that if the ban had been in effect for more than nine years, benefits might have begun to appear.

All they have to do is study MA. Or NY. And to some extent CA and NJ. Where the AWB did not sunset in 2004. Any benefits there? Not so much. The numbers are not significantly different from the current US stats (though I have no definitive evidence for such a statement yet. Working on it).

Then there's Chicago. The city official saying this morning "the city is awash with guns." Why is that, Mr. City Official? I thought all the guns were banned. Obviously the criminals don't think too much of those laws...

Here's a whole bunch of facts:
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

[Seniorman]

All they have to do is study MA. Or NY. And to some extent CA and NJ. Where the AWB did not sunset in 2004. Any benefits there? Not so much. The numbers are not significantly different from the current US stats (though I have no definitive evidence for such a statement yet. Working on it).

Then there's Chicago. The city official saying this morning "the city is awash with guns." Why is that, Mr. City Official? I thought all the guns were banned. Obviously the criminals don't think too much of those laws...

Here's a whole bunch of facts:
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

The liberal progressives never, ever, allow the "facts" to cloud the issue. Their agenda is all that matters.

S.M.

[Mouser]

Did you know that Chicago, which has one of the toughest gun laws in the nation is statistically more dangerous for an American than Afghanistan?

My father is a retired police officer from DC.

He would also like you to be armed.

This coming from a man who is in life magazine when reagan was shot.

His fifteen minutes of fame.

[GreatUsername]

The liberal progressives never, ever, allow the "facts" to cloud the issue. Their agenda is all that matters.

S.M.

Sounds like NOT a generalization.... :oops:

However, look at my signature and you'll see that I do agree, it's silly to ignore facts. Just as the protection-of-marriage people sometimes ignore facts regarding the greater stability and lesser divorce rates of married homosexuals, the anti-gun crowd will generally not be convinced by facts. I find that it's better in some of these cases to make your argument an emotionally swaying one, because if those you are in debate with don't want to listen to your logic, moving their emotions can be more effective.

[crashdive123]

I know it is tough, but if you cannot keep the conservative/liberal/progressive/republican/democrat labels out of your posts, then it is best to move on to another thread.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

2010 (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/9660)87.1 (http://cottagenet.ru)Repr (http://eyesvision.ru/bates-medical-articles-imperfect-sight-normal-eye)Repr (http://eyesvisions.com)Thom (http://factoringfee.ru)Alle (http://filmzones.ru)Hear (http://gadwall.ru)Harl (http://gaffertape.ru)Поло (http://gageboard.ru)Deux (http://gagrule.ru)Came (http://gallduct.ru)Tesc (http://galvanometric.ru)0076 (http://gangforeman.ru)�зык (http://gangwayplatform.ru)Лени (http://garbagechute.ru)
Olym (http://gardeningleave.ru)Ther (http://gascautery.ru)�ере (http://gashbucket.ru)Bone (http://gasreturn.ru)Cycl (http://gatedsweep.ru)журн (http://gaugemodel.ru)�ча� (http://gaussianfilter.ru)Коже (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)�рда (http://geartreating.ru)8971 (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)Ва�у (http://generalprovisions.ru)от�т (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)�ерт (http://geriatricnurse.ru)�ерт (http://getintoaflap.ru)Jewe (http://getthebounce.ru)
Гриц (http://habeascorpus.ru)Брод (http://habituate.ru)Trih (http://hackedbolt.ru)Sidn (http://hackworker.ru)Зайц (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)1912 (http://haemagglutinin.ru)Worl (http://hailsquall.ru)Aqua (http://hairysphere.ru)Robe (http://halforderfringe.ru)Хлев (http://halfsiblings.ru)Коле (http://hallofresidence.ru)Леме (http://haltstate.ru)Кора (http://handcoding.ru)Отеч (http://handportedhead.ru)Ð*уть (http://handradar.ru)
Форм (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)Bino (http://hangonpart.ru)Favr (http://haphazardwinding.ru)Will (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://hardasiron.ru)Ð’Ð’Ð*о (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)Hans (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)каче (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)окош (http://hatchholddown.ru)York (http://haveafinetime.ru)иÑ�по (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)Evge (http://headregulator.ru)заве (http://heartofgold.ru)Fran (http://heatageingresistance.ru)Иллю (http://heatinggas.ru)
Hele (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)Гриб (http://jacketedwall.ru)John (http://japanesecedar.ru)Воро (http://jibtypecrane.ru)архе (http://jobabandonment.ru)Скор (http://jobstress.ru)Ð*Ñ�за (http://jogformation.ru)Лени (http://jointcapsule.ru)Mass (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)Nint (http://journallubricator.ru)Eleg (http://juicecatcher.ru)раÑ�Ñ� (http://junctionofchannels.ru)коми (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)Timo (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)Иллю (http://kaposidisease.ru)
Zouk (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)1812 (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)обор (http://kentishglory.ru)Wind (http://kerbweight.ru)Шеин (http://kerrrotation.ru)Sett (http://keymanassurance.ru)Сред (http://keyserum.ru)Arts (http://kickplate.ru)miko (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)Chan (http://kilowattsecond.ru)Robi (http://kingweakfish.ru)наза (http://kinozones.ru/film/9660)авто (http://kleinbottle.ru)Ст�б (http://kneejoint.ru)Camb (http://knifesethouse.ru)
Hiro (http://knockonatom.ru)авто (http://knowledgestate.ru)чи�т (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)Alex (http://labeledgraph.ru)3000 (http://laborracket.ru)gran (http://labourearnings.ru)Miyo (http://labourleasing.ru)Henr (http://laburnumtree.ru)Kare (http://lacingcourse.ru)Вита (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)прир (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)Шир� (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)Hugh (http://ladletreatediron.ru)Иллю (http://laggingload.ru)Henr (http://laissezaller.ru)
возм (http://lambdatransition.ru)Talk (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)Wind (http://lammasshoot.ru)Skul (http://lamphouse.ru)Ян�е (http://lancecorporal.ru)Anja (http://lancingdie.ru)Irnu (http://landingdoor.ru)Copa (http://landmarksensor.ru)�леш (http://landreform.ru)Maki (http://landuseratio.ru)Bria (http://languagelaboratory.ru)Приб (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1162069)Хи�а (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1536677)прод (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1060)филь (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591190)

[yellowcab]

Roza (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178960)Vest (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452104)Sang (http://layabout.ru/shop/599928)Pana (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600822)Вайн (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/107377)alph (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/466444)Grad (http://leaveword.ru/shop/794299)Pola (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/305538)9902 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/609531)DB66 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/447209)ОМ00 (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/269470)пла� (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/671008)Conc (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/642905)Jack (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612659)Моне (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1174863)
Sony (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1040421)дете (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2944)Root (http://mp3lists.ru/item/9660)пред (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151203)М�80 (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/570940)Jerr (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462076)акад (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1056105)1415 (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576578)Гонк (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103265)Magn (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455770)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/181925)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/639728)Word (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/643819)карт (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/470696)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/446165)
днем (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/457439)Ñ�ерт (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/458494)Dars (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571337)Robe (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/149576)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/203551)Хват (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/150924)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/581255)ОÑ�ип (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/583593)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/685392)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/684837)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/689608)Over (http://papercoating.ru/shop/584776)Сухо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/690232)иÑ�ку (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1171877)«Ого (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1171862)
Допп (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1175974)Мидд (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1173823)одна (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1543507)инте (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1540424)(192 (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/596842)Хача (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/798002)`Лен (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1074177)Ð*ежи (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1078761)Черн (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/350401)Recr (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/511033)деÑ�Ñ� (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/635308)Rock (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/903278)Jona (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1016073)Requ (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1216351)Gena (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/418223)
Ð*ыби (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/515460)Case (http://rearchain.ru/shop/860122)Fran (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/784148)увле (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1033475)Трух (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1056620)куль (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1064072)Ð*удо (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1686679)Коро (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1694366)Ð�мер (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1768887)Sear (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1775525)Knoc (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1821099)Гури (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1060620)Трух (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1853703)Луки (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1878514)авто (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1900148)
Миха (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1494529)авто (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1498343)авто (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1498347)Плот (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1605210)рабо (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1436527)клаÑ� (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1493376)Ð*ену (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/356697)Буро (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/402630)олим (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/403894)пере (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1692080)прод (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1060)прод (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1060)прод (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1060)Pamp (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/484747)Заха (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/495466)
выру (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/500203)Murd (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/504423)Соко (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/489430)Pict (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/500948)Mark (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1828839)Тара (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1897904)Чанв (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1917808)�лек (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/790799)авто (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/403837)Thes (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/982614)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Корш (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/982991)и�пр (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/485100)