Mall shooting

[2dumb2kwit]

Note; These comments are based on info that I have seen/heard/read, from the media...and as such may or may not be accurate.


Isn't it ironic, that this nut-job, as well as that other nut job that did the movie theater shooting, used a gun that the gun grabbers hate (an AR-15), and in both cases, those AR-15's jammed and kept these wack-jobs from killing more people? Can you imagine the additional death that could have been involved, if these nuts had used dependable rifles, or God forbid.....explosives.


All that aside, I hope the victims and the families of the victims can soon find peace.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

2dumb, my erstwhile friend,

Even one death, be it by thermonuclear detonation or a single hammer-blow, lessens us all. Speaking only for me, I find your comments to be disturbing at best.

-- Nighteyes

[BENESSE]

(Note to self: ixney the AR-15)

An aside comment: where were the CCWs?

[2dumb2kwit]

2dumb, my erstwhile friend,

Even one death, be it by thermonuclear detonation or a single hammer-blow, lessens us all. Speaking only for me, I find your comments to be disturbing at best.

-- Nighteyes

I find it disturbing that so many try to blame guns, or a certain type of gun, for the evils of man. Especially when said gun malfunctions and actually limits the number of people harmed by a madman, and the media keeps trying to make it sound like that type of rifle made the harm possible.

I agree with you, that one life lost this way, is too many, but placing blame in the wrong place doesn't do anything to resolve the problem. In fact, I believe that placing the blame in the wrong place hurts our chances of finding a way to limit these terrible crimes.

[edr730]

http://leoniefennell.wordpress.com/2010/12/19/31-prescription-drugs-linked-to-387-homicides/

[rebel]

I'm with ya.

Saw a bumper sticker that said " blaming guns on columbine was like blaming spoons for _________ being fat.

They're just driving the wedge and every day it gets deeper.

[Winter]

I'm just glad psychos don't know how to maintain their firearms or clear jams. They sure as hell weren't Infantrymen.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I agree with you, that one life lost this way, is too many, but placing blame in the wrong place doesn't do anything to resolve the problem. In fact, I believe that placing the blame in the wrong place hurts our chances of finding a way to limit these terrible crimes.

On THAT we are in complete agreement. Though I do not generally like the NRA, I agree with their statement that "guns don't kill people; people kill people." It is from that point forward that I part company with them.

As I mentioned to another poster on this Board, guns are not the cause because several mass killings in the US have been done with other implements. One in Japan was done with a steak knife. The recent one in Wyoming was done with a big friggin' knife and a hunting bow. Just up the road from me in Santa Barbara California, a mass killing was done with a diabolically-aimed automobile.

As long as society continues to focus on guns, or bows, or steak knives, or automobiles (or baseball bats a la Al Capone), we will never be able to stop these horrible mass killings. Collectively, these things are only the HOWs. To succeed we need to uncover, and address, the WHATs and WHYs.

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[BENESSE]

At least 27 dead in tragic shooing at elementary school. (http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-school-district-locked-down-shooting-report-151955384--abc-news-topstories.html)

[Daniel Nighteyes]

At least 27 dead in tragic shooing at elementary school. (http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-school-district-locked-down-shooting-report-151955384--abc-news-topstories.html)

Oh dear Heavens, not another one!!! [Tears in eyes, lump in throat.]

[hunter63]

Yeah, watching it now..........Good grief......
I do wish they would just reports the facts instead of filling in the blanks by making stuff up.........

[2dumb2kwit]

Killing innocent people is a terrible thing, but I really just can't rap my head around someone killing children.

Thoughts and prayers to all those people.

[2dumb2kwit]

Yeah, watching it now..........Good grief......
I do wish they would just reports the facts instead of filling in the blanks by making stuff up.........

The way people are using the deaths of those innocent children, to further their mis-guided agenda, makes me want to puke.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

The way people are using the deaths of those innocent children, to further their mis-guided agenda, makes me want to puke.

People are reacting and speaking emotionally, not rationally. Though I disagree with some of the things they are presently saying, I understand what's going on. So, I think, might you.

On this topic, might I suggest that we all cut each other a bit of slack for the next few hours or days?

[hunter63]

The other night, when the news of the mall shooting was being first reported........The blurg was, "Mall shoots and Johnson Creek locked down....More at 10;00 pm.......
So we were lead to believe that the mall shootings were at Johnson's Creek Mall, (central Wisconsin).....

Turns out the Johnson's Creek Mall was a bomb threat (found nothing) and the shooting were out west......but that's not the way it was reported.

Yes that does make you want to puke........Children being worst, but anyone that started their day with out a care in the world......Gone.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

One of the news reports I just heard, on my car radio, surfaced two not-so-surprising facts. First, in the 60+ U.S. mass killings that the group studied, nearly all of the shooters purchased their weapons legally. Second, nearly all of these shooters had previously-identified mental health problems. Though the report did not say so directly, it seemed that this also describes the Connecticut shooter.

Food for thought, folks, food for thought. I don't know what it means either, but you can bet your bippie that I'll be pondering this very carefully.

[BENESSE]

One of the news reports I just heard, on my car radio, surfaced two not-so-surprising facts. First, in the 60+ U.S. mass killings that the group studied, nearly all of the shooters purchased their weapons legally. Second, nearly all of these shooters had previously-identified mental health problems. Though the report did not say so directly, it seemed that this also describes the Connecticut shooter.

Food for thought, folks, food for thought. I don't know what it means either, but you can bet your bippie that I'll be pondering this very carefully.

I'll take a stab at what it means.
What's at issue isn't the guns but the mentally unstable (with plenty of advanced notice of their instability) who have access to them legally and use them to even some demented score. Unless we as society take action to identify and avert a potentially dangerous person before he acts, we're gonna be living through these kinds of tragedies over and over again.
Alternatively, we can all be armed at all times and post armed guards in every school, hospital or anywhere where people aren't able to carry due to age or infirmity.

[kyratshooter]

I'll take a stab.
Alternatively, we can all be armed at all times and post armed guards in every school, hospital or anywhere where people aren't able to carry due to age or infirmity.

Already done! Every school in my county has a full time Sheriff's deputy on site. Every hspital has full security compliment, after all, the first place they take a crazy is the ER. Then there are the mall cops.

As soon as we identify the crazies and take away the individual firearms they will turn to home made explosives. We have lost more soldiers in the past ten years to explosives than to bullets. Crazy people do what they got to do. The average elementary school would have had as many casulties as this if the perp had used a baseball bat.

You can outlaw everything but insanity. Once you do that there will be no more politicians.

[BENESSE]

So what's your great solution, Kyrat? Or do you even think one is needed?

What's really ironic to me is that people who should be getting up in arms over a tragedy like this, choose to do it over arms themselves.

[crashdive123]

Here's a solution that might help - not solve - the problem of some mental defectives buying firearms. Docs that are treating them report it to the national database that instacheck uses. Currently that is not being done because of doctor/patient confidentiality. Those same doctors should be allowed to remove somebody from that database if/when appropriate.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Currently that is not being done because of doctor/patient confidentiality.

No, actually that isn't (entirely) true. The problem as I see it (and I have discussed this with many mental health professionals) is the restrictive wording and definitions in our current laws. I could write a thorough intellectual treatise here but I won't, because most of you wouldn't read it anyway. [<GRIN!>]

What we need is an absolutely unprecedented coming-together of all involved groups. The purpose would be to craft laws, policies, procedures and practices that all involved groups will get behind and actively support.

Some limitations on Second Amendment rights will obviously be involved, as will some expanded reporting responsibilities that impact current HIPAA regulations.

All in all, crafting the "permanent" solution to this won't be easy, quick or simple. It will involve concessions and sacrifices from all involved parties. In other words, unless all involved parties choose to abandon their initial, dug-in positions, no workable solution will ever be found.

Just my two-hundredths of a dollar. YMMV.

-- Nighteyes

[kyratshooter]

Keep in mind that there are folks out there that feel that anyone that opposes them is mentally ill.

The old Soviet Union incarcerated Christians in mental hospitals for insanity.

You start messing with people's health records and you are going to have a mess.

One of those things being aversion to mental health services for fear of more negitive labeling than already exists. 10% of the nation is on antidepressants, and often it is not for MH issues. they are used to stop smoking, diet aids and antianxiety aids. Family docrors, PAs and Nurse Practitioners proscribe them like candy.

How about all the Vets in PTSD group session across the nation? We incourage them to get help then shoot them down after they served?

BAM!! You're on the list!

Once you are on that list you are never comming off it.


In the case of this school shooter the firearms belonged to his Mother. Do we restrict the ownership of firearms for all people in the family of a MH subject?

No, I do not have the answer. For some things there is NO answer.

[BENESSE]

We've already made huge changes at airports and we're putting up with them because the risks (without them) far outweigh the intrusion and inconvenience.
Something similar will have to happen outside airports. Yeah, it has come to that.
Don't know where people draw the line and what has to happen to jolt them into action but I guess, as in all things, we'll all get that wake-up call sooner or later.

[Winter]

I am sick to my stomach over these 27 innocents dying.

It's a little sad "we" use it as a starting point to a debate that serves our own purposes.

These massacres are not new. No rights need to be watered down over new perceived dangers to society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Freedom has it's risks and dangers. Gerbils are perfectly safe.

[edr730]

I do know that we have restrictions of drug use and some activities. We have laws that restrict driving while under the influence of alcohol is the most obvious one. And, from some of the people I have known, some people should never be behind a wheel when they drink. I can't say that it was the individuals mental condition before he drank the alcohol or after. I can't say that if a person commits homicide while under the influence of a prescribed drug for a mental condition whether or not it's his fault or the drugs fault. I only know that if a person commits homicide while under the influence of a drug that openly states that it can cause suicidal tendencies that it should be considered that it may be part of the problem. I'm the kind of guy that has lots of complaints and no solutions. Crash and Nighteyes have offered their solutions. Here in this great nation, we all play our part.

[2dumb2kwit]

We've already made huge changes at airports and we're putting up with them because the risks (without them) far outweigh the intrusion and inconvenience.
Something similar will have to happen outside airports. Yeah, it has come to that.
Don't know where people draw the line and what has to happen to jolt them into action but I guess, as in all things, we'll all get that wake-up call sooner or later.

Are you ready to outlaw swimming pools? They kill well over 10 times as many innocent children every year, then guns do. Not to mention that they don't save the countless lives that guns do. Nor is the right to have one protected by the 2nd amendment.

Are you ready to take away peoples rights, because of what someone thinks they MIGHT do, in the future?

[BENESSE]

Are you ready to outlaw swimming pools? They kill well over 10 times as many innocent children every year, then guns do. Not to mention that they don't save the countless lives that guns do. Nor is the right to have one protected by the 2nd amendment.

Are you ready to take away peoples rights, because of what someone thinks they MIGHT do, in the future?

Please point out where I've said anything about taking away people's rights to own guns or outlawing guns. If you even skimmed over anything I said you couldn't have come to that conclusion so obviously you didn't.
Here's a reminder, for what it's worth:



What's at issue isn't the guns but the mentally unstable (with plenty of advanced notice of their instability) who have access to them legally and use them to even some demented score. Unless we as society take action to identify and avert a potentially dangerous person before he acts, we're gonna be living through these kinds of tragedies over and over again.
Alternatively, we can all be armed at all times and post armed guards in every school, hospital or anywhere where people aren't able to carry due to age or infirmity.

Which extreme, far out part of what I said do you take issue with?

[Knight of Disorder]

You can't blame guns, that's understood by anyone with an ounce of common sense. At the same time, and I need to point this out. The movie theater shooting was preformed by a mentally in man that went off his medication because his support system failed him and he was excluded from social activities at his school. While these are simply factors and don't lessen what he did, and there is still a chance that he would have done these things regardless, had he remained on his medicine and his support system remained intact, it is believed that the event wouldn't have happened. I've just heard about the school shooting myself, and I don't believe that we'll know why he did what he did ever. The fact of the matter is, while he is to be blamed for his actions, there are reasons behind his actions.

You don't need more regulations, you don't need more protection. People as a whole need to make an effort to understand why these people, and even those who don't suffer mental illnesses do what they do. In understanding, as in many things, these events can be caught more often before they happen.

[2dumb2kwit]

Please point out where I've said anything about taking away people's rights to own guns or outlawing guns. If you even skimmed over anything I said you couldn't have come to that conclusion so obviously you didn't.



We've already made huge changes at airports and we're putting up with them because the risks (without them) far outweigh the intrusion and inconvenience.

Are you telling me that you think people can carry guns in airports and on planes?
(And for the record, I don't think your statement is entirely correct. It seems that a lot of people don't think so. http://www.economist.com/debate/overview/225)

[markybgood]

We have gun regulations in place that just aren't used properly
everytime one of these tragedies takes place. The finger gets pointed in the wrong direction. Guns aren't the problem, its people. Society cottles way too much. These kids grow up thinking they are entitled to fairness, and when lifes realities set in, they become confused and depressed. Then become adults with a false sense of reality. Doubled if they have any mental imbalance. Until we start addressing the why's, the how's will be insignificant . Taking guns away from law abiding citizens isn't the answer. Taking away my right to how much ammo my gun holds? ok? Let me ask this question. How many.people die in car accidents each year? Yet cars go up to 120 miles an hr, when the average speed limit is 65 and bars have parking lots. ??????

[Rick]

To try to put things in perspective.....maybe.....somewhat.....

Guns were outlawed in Japan so Sarin gas was used.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0320.html#article

Guns were outlawed in England so knife assault skyrocketed. "An average of five people are knifed to death in England and Wales every week...."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/29/uk-sees-sharp-rise-in-fat_n_154011.html

Even coffee at church can't be trusted it seems.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/us/arsenic-poisoning-at-church-mystifies-a-maine-town.html

You can blame any tool you want to blame but anyone or any group intent on inflicting harm will find a method to do so. Oklahoma City should always stand as a perfect example to that truth.

[Wildthang]

I think the sad truth is that this will never stop. There are too many people anymore that are mentally unstable, and no way to identify which ones are capable of such heinous crimes. So as much as I would like to see these kind of encedents stopped, there is just no way to do it without infringing on the rights of some people. So do we profile potentially unstable people and lock them all up? Or do we outlaw guns? Neither is the right answer, so it is my opinion that this will never stop.
Probably the only chance to curb these horrible crimes would be with competant armed citizens and it seems that a lot of authorities do not agree with that either! People have murdered other people for as long as they have been on this earth, and it will never stop, sad but true!

[BENESSE]

Well I for one, am relieved that we solved another one, and right before Christmas, too.
Just goes to show what happens when a lot of brilliant minds come together to help those who can't help themselves.

[2dumb2kwit]

Well I for one, am relieved that we solved another one, and right before Christmas, too.
Just goes to show what happens when a lot of brilliant minds come together to help those who can't help themselves.

It sure would be nice if we could.

[LowKey]

This is a tragedy of untold proportions. Children should never be the target of violence and I hate the grandstanding on the lives of these particular children.

Equating guns with cars, knives, baseball bats, and swimming pools makes it look like you are trivializing the crime that took place and broadly paints gun owners as self-centered and uncaring. Even though some of the arguments may make sense, now is not the time to be pushing them.

There is current law that if you have been before a judge and committed, you are ineligible already for gun ownership. There is an avenue there for doctors (and family) to put potentially dangerous individuals into the instacheck system. Perhaps it needs to be used more.

What you don't want to have happen is have people avoid treatment for things like incidental depression perhaps due to a recent loss just for fear of being put on some government list. One psychiatrist this morning said that they do have a profile for these types of killers. The only problem is, 100s of people who would never commit a crime fall into this same profile. Another psychiatrist pointed out that 150 people have been killed by 'mass murderers'. Another 15,000 have been murdered in many other ways. The Mayors Against Illegal Guns were on the radio too. They just can't seem to focus on the illegal part. Society has gotten too crowded, too uncaring and too broke to care about the sick and the criminal among us. That I believe is where the focus should be.

I don't have the answers, but I also don't believe in infringing on all peoples' rights to protect against the insane few. And I don't just mean gun rights, but the right to move about this great country freely, the right of privacy, the right of protection against illegal search and seizure and more importantly, the right of being innocent until proven guilty. The minute you start to put an entire society under lock-down...well-intentioned as it may be...that is when you have given up on that society as a whole.

[BENESSE]

Well put, LK.
I can only add that unless all sides work together towards a solution they can live with, one will be imposed on them and they'll be even less happy than they are now. It's happened over and over again, all over the world.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

The problem as I see it (and I have discussed this with many mental health professionals) is the restrictive wording and definitions in our current laws.

Crash,

Actually, another phrase I should have included is "confusing & contradictory." Mental health professionals do have a duty to protect, warn, etc. under the Tarasoff rulings (beginning with Tarasoff v. the Regents of the University of California in 1976), but the details are entirely unclear. They can still be held liable for making a report or issuing a warning under other laws, etc.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/psylawseminar/Tarasoff.Greene.htm

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Well put, LK.
I can only add that unless all sides work together towards a solution they can live with, one will be imposed on them and they'll be even less happy than they are now. It's happened over and over again, all over the world.

I agree; well-put indeed.

[Rick]

I guess the whole world missed the 22 kids in China that were cut up last week by a knife wielding nut. No furor or press on that. Guess Chinese kids don't rate in this country. They must not sell ad space.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/14/news/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214

Probably need to ban Chinese knives.

[Chris]

I am sick to my stomach over these 27 innocents dying.

It's a little sad "we" use it as a starting point to a debate that serves our own purposes.

These massacres are not new. No rights need to be watered down over new perceived dangers to society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Freedom has it's risks and dangers. Gerbils are perfectly safe.

I recently learned about that, I had no idea that the worst school killing in US history, and the third worst killing period after 9/11 and OKC, happened mere miles from my house (albeit, 85 years ago).

[BENESSE]

I guess the whole world missed the 22 kids in China that were cut up last week by a knife wielding nut. No furor or press on that. Guess Chinese kids don't rate in this country. They must not sell ad space.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/14/news/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214

Probably need to ban Chinese knives.

What you might have missed is that there were NO FATALITIES among the 22. No one died in that particular incident.
See, someone has to get ahold of you in order to stab you. Guns work differently which is why people like them so much including yours truly. However, being confronted by a lunatic wielding one, not even Jesse Owens would have much of a chance. That's pretty much what all the hullabaloo is all about.

[2dumb2kwit]

What you might have missed is that there were NO FATALITIES among the 22. No one died in that particular incident.
See, someone has to get ahold of you in order to stab you. Guns work differently which is why people like them so much including yours truly. However, being confronted by a lunatic wielding one, not even Jesse Owens would have much of a chance. That's pretty much what all the hullabaloo is all about.

What you may have missed, is this part of that article.

In 2010, nearly 20 children were killed and 50 wounded in a string of copycat incidents around central China. China has strict gun control laws, so knives are the weapon of choice in violent crimes.

[BENESSE]

What you may have missed, is this part of that article.

No I didn't. Which is why I said...now read it again, 2D...I said, no one died in that particular incident...the particular incident being what Rick was talking about...you know...the 22 kids just this past week? You with me?

We can split hairs, you 'n me, a l l d a y l o n g and nothing will change....the least of that being our opinions about this. People who you most need to convince ain't here. I am just part of the choir...the small part who realizes that doing something before we're forced to is better than doing nothing.

[crashdive123]

Personally, I don't believe guns or any other device that can be used to cause harm is the issue. I believe that we, as a society are. Back while many of us were growing up we didn't sit in front of the TV all day watching or playing video games. I believe that the realistic nature and extreme violence portrayed in many of today's video games are a contributor (obviously only part of the puzzle). In real life there are not "cheat codes" to help you win. There is no reset button where you get another life. IMO many are becoming so desensitized to death and destruction - and this is a contributor.

Another contributor IMO is that many of today's youth are taught that they can do no wrong. Their "boundaries" have been expanded to the point where they are unrecognizable, meaning there are none. When they venture into adulthood they find out that the world really does keep score, and your performance really does matter.

Another contributor IMO is that in today's society, and this is not limited to just youth, there is the expectation of instant results or gratification. Working hard and sacrificing to achieve something is sadly becoming less and less frequent.

I also believe that in general - humans are kind, caring and compassionate. Sure there are exceptions - there always have been. I feel strongly that it is the political class (regardless of party affiliation) that contributes to pitting people against people. They divide us, often for their own personal gain.

Those are just a few thoughts that have been lingering in my head while I try and wrap my mind around this senseless tragedy.

[2dumb2kwit]

No I didn't. Which is why I said...now read it again, 2D...I said, no one died in that particular incident...the particular incident being what Rick was talking about...you know...the 22 kids just this past week? You with me?

We can split hairs, you 'n me, a l l d a y l o n g and nothing will change....the least of that being our opinions about this. People who you most need to convince ain't here. I am just part of the choir...the small part who realizes that doing something before we're forced to is better than doing nothing.

As I told a friend of mine, a few minutes ago....Maybe the Gov't needs to go batchit crazy, and just outlaw ALL guns, so the criminals can't get them. You know....like they did heroin...and crack.....and meth.

[2dumb2kwit]

Personally, I don't believe guns or any other device that can be used to cause harm is the issue. I believe that we, as a society are. Back while many of us were growing up we didn't sit in front of the TV all day watching or playing video games. I believe that the realistic nature and extreme violence portrayed in many of today's video games are a contributor (obviously only part of the puzzle). In real life there are not "cheat codes" to help you win. There is no reset button where you get another life. IMO many are becoming so desensitized to death and destruction - and this is a contributor.

Another contributor IMO is that many of today's youth are taught that they can do no wrong. Their "boundaries" have been expanded to the point where they are unrecognizable, meaning there are none. When they venture into adulthood they find out that the world really does keep score, and your performance really does matter.

Another contributor IMO is that in today's society, and this is not limited to just youth, there is the expectation of instant results or gratification. Working hard and sacrificing to achieve something is sadly becoming less and less frequent.

I also believe that in general - humans are kind, caring and compassionate. Sure there are exceptions - there always have been. I feel strongly that it is the political class (regardless of party affiliation) that contributes to pitting people against people. They divide us, often for their own personal gain.

Those are just a few thoughts that have been lingering in my head while I try and wrap my mind around this senseless tragedy.

I agree with all that you have said. The only thing I can think to add, is that I believe that the media is worse than/ does more damage than, the politicians.

[jfeatherjohn]

You guys are all way ahead of me here.
First, we had this dead guyin New Jersey, posting on Facebook. We all thought the shooter killed himself, but there he was.
There were a couple of others, but the kicker is:
I saw multiple reports that the 223 was recovered from the madman's car, then, last night, the ME said all of the shots came from that weapon.
Now, I quit watching when everybody started interviewing 6, 7 and 8 year olds about what happened, but I obviously missed something.
Tragedy -> circus.

[Seniorman]

Insanity and irresponibility have never known any bounds. Here is a link to another school tragedy of even worse magnitude, and no guns were involved. Check the date, too.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103186662

S.M.

[Rick]

That's a good reference Seniorman and one I've used quite a bit. I'm hard pressed to understand how any gun restrictions would stop Ted Kazinsky, Tim McVeigh, Ted Bundy, The Green River Killer, Jeoffrey Dammer, John Wayne Gacy, the Anthrax Letter sender or any of the other serial killers that haven't used guns. Shoot, in Cologne, Germany some nut converted an insecticide sprayer into a flame thrower and killed a bunch of kids in a school.

If you look at the period 1994-2004 when the "assault" weapon (whatever that is) ban was on there were all sorts of gun related tragedies including the Columbine Massacre.

Does anyone remember Charles Whitman? You could have banned him to a single shot weapon and he would have still wrecked havoc. He used an M1 but one shot at a time.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Personally, I don't believe guns or any other device that can be used to cause harm is the issue. I believe that we, as a society are.

That's exactly what I've been saying for years, Crash, as you will remember from our other recent conversation.

Now, if we are to be honest with ourselves we have to admit that guns are part of the problem -- they're the method-of-choice in the majority of mass killings. Merely outlawing or restricting the availability of guns won't solve the problem, just slow things down a mite.

Folks, I've been monitoring the news (liberal, conservative, domestic and international) and some of the social media sites. To me, its beginning to look like the Connecticut tragedy might be the national tipping point on this issue, much like Kennedy's assassination was the tipping point that resulted in the Gun Control Act of 1968.

It is certain that, because of the Connecticut tragedy, things are going to change. The only uncertainty is what shape that change will take. As I see it we can either unite with the other constituent groups and work together to help design an effective solution or, by our actions and attitudes, be shut out of the process.

I don't look for anyone to agree, or disagree, with me. This is how I see things, and how I intend to behave over the next days, weeks and months.

Here's hoping that all of you, and all of your loved ones, stay healthy, safe and happy during this Holiday Season.

-- Nighteyes

[Rick]

Try to find 5.56 ammo right now. There is none to be had. Sportsman's Guide is the only place I've found it if you can stomach the price. One thing is for certain. Everyone is buying up everything they can lay their hands on.

[LowKey]

It is very hard to enter the bargaining when you are shut out of the room. The people who are in the position to 'do something' are not currently open to hearing the LAWFUL gun owners' side of anything. Our state gun owners' association has been waiting well over 1800 days into the term of our current state Governor to have a talk on the state gun laws. It is his office which refuses to sit down and talk. I don't think you will see anything different here.

I was in a local gun shop yesterday. All the ARs and high powers were gone; and this state already has a 10 round limit on magazine capacity. Who's to say those new purchases are going to be grandfathered. Face it, the only way the powers-that-be will see to "end the violence" will be to confiscate everything more modern than your muzzle-loader. To do less would still leave the possibility that a multi-shot firearm would be available to a potential mass murderer.
It's going to get ugly. Especially since the more vocal gun owners have embraced the hot redneck pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-fingers persona put forth by the NRA. And the opposition has determined there is no use talking to them. It's too bad those millions of gun owners who don't join the NRA have no voice.

BTW, look to your knives.
Boston, as well as other cities already have ordinances that it is illegal to carry a knife on your person with blades over a certain length. Boston happens to be a 3" blade. While there are exemptions for trades, we have to remind the new guys to put their leathermen in their locked tool box until they get to the worksite and before they leave the worksite. No sense in taking chances. Stores that sell knives within city limits have to have a permit to do so and are only allowed to sell to individuals over 18 years of age. Recently they tried to ban the sale of knives in the city altogether because of a murder committed with a larger than legal knife, but it didn't pass.

[Woodmaster750]

We need to remember there are a lot of good gun owners out there, but it only takes one, two now three butt heads to make 4million good folks look bad. People look for a goat and the good gun owners will be just that...

[LowKey]

WE know there are sane, law-abiding citizens out there with guns.
Tell THEM.

[Rick]

My BIL was on Long Island a couple of weeks back helping to restore power. They were stopped one evening by LEO because one of the guys had a pocket knife clip exposed in his pocket. The LEOs (2 of them) removed the knives and informed all of them they were in violation and could be placed in jail over night. Even though these were used as work tools for stripping insulation. The LEOs let them go but told them not to show up down there with knives again or they would go to jail. Fortunately, no one found the handguns.

[edr730]

Sometimes What you may thinnk is legal really isn't.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247035/Marine-jailed-Mexico-Jon-Hammars-family-fighting-return-US.html

[Wildthang]

Unfortunately the government will probably begin a ban on guns just to be able to say, look what wer'e doing, we are stopping crime. Will it take guns out of the wrong hands, no, will it stop crime and murders, no!

[jfeatherjohn]

I just turned on the TV, and missed this guy's name.
Anyway, a Democrat Congressman from WV, endorsed by the NRA, said enough is enough. He says Diane Feinstein has had THE bill in hand, and he is throwing his support.
Do you think they are gonna take my 22lr Mare's leg?
This is going to go over BIG in AZ, where the Mexican cartels are better armed than the Natl Guard.
Nighteyes, you are on the button. Now, does anyone want to take bets on cessession (sp)?
I think that this state is already fed up; you might be surprised.

[BENESSE]

Here's a thought... Since we can't save everybody, let's save nobody.:santa:

[kyratshooter]

Here's a thought... Since we can't save everybody, let's save nobody.:santa:


Fact is Ms.B that is exactly the premise our legal system is built on.

One is presumed innicent until proven guilty.

One can only be convicted with a perponderance of evidence, overwhelming evidence, or beyound reasonable doubt.

And it is better for a guilty man to go free than to convict an innocent man.

Deprivation of firearms is a penelty for commission of a felony, the fate of a criminal. Any restrictive law is the violation of due process since it applies criminal sanctions on an innicent individual.

There are innocent adults as well as innocent children and there are still a few of us unwiling to take the blame and be treated as a criminal, deprived of due process, for the acts of only a few.

We all know what is in the aschedule. The deviants, psycos and "domestic terrrists" will turn to explosives. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 and injured 800 using fertilizer and desil fuel. That is the standard protest method around the world at this time. The presence of firearms and their limited potential might have been what saved the remainder of the children in that Conecticut school. What if the killer had gotten loose in Lowes or Home Depot? The cost of his guns in fertilizer and gasoline would have produced an eminse device. He might have taken out everyone there.

[2dumb2kwit]

Gun store report;

I stopped by a gun store today. Not only were people filling out paperwork and buying AR-15's, there were people standing in line behind them, waiting for there turn to do the same. In fact, there was a guy in an orange vest, directing traffic, because their small parking lot was full, with cars lining up in the street, to get in.

I wonder just how many more hi-cap rifles are going to be out there, because of people talking about banning them.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

We need to remember there are a lot of good gun owners out there, but it only takes one, two now three butt heads to make 4million good folks look bad.

Actually, IMO, it was we "4 million good folks" who made ourselves look bad by remaining silent and choosing, or allowing, others to speak FOR us. We thought it was enough to smugly refuse to join the NRA and GOA, or to join them as 'silent members.' What we should have been doing was speaking out in our own defense. What we should have been doing is actively rebutting their frequent, militaristic, bigoted diatribes that publicly painted all gun-owners -- including us -- as a bunch of ravening, sociopathic beasts. ("The guys with the guns make the rules", indeed! How's that likely to work for ya NOW, Wayne?)

Yes, we decent, honest, caring and law-abiding gun owners are likely to be shut out of the discussion, largely because of the NRA and the GOA. Whatever political capital these groups may have acquired just got flushed down the figurative toilet, taking us right along with it. IMO, if we seek someone to point our fingers at, we need look no farther than the nearest mirror.

And that specifically includes [B]me.

-- Nighteyes

[Rick]

Isn't it ironic that the anti gun crowd is spurring gun and ammunition sales?

I've been a life member of the NRA for a long time. A long, long time. Since 1978. I don't sit idly by and let stuff happen without comment either. I talk to my elected individuals regularly. It's how a free society is supposed to work.

I have been chatting with a friend on the other side of the pond. He has a level head on his shoulders and reminded me of something this morning I had forgotten and not thought about for some time. He is so right. Here's his comment.

"The 1st Amendment to your Constitution is the 1st because the men that founded your country felt freedom of speech was the most important asset a free man could have. They chose the 2nd Amendment to ensure the government feared the people. Not the other way around. The 2nd also ensures the 1st. If they didn't think the right to bear arms was a terribly important fundamental right it would have been the 5th or 9th Amendment."

I will let his words stand on their own merit. Pretty observant and from an "outsider" to boot.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Rick,

I agree with your friend.

[2dumb2kwit]

Here is an interesting article, that a yankee lawyer friend of mine sent me a link to. I don't agree with everything in it, but the over-all point of the article is correct.



The U.S. Already Had a Conversation About Guns—and the Pro Side Won

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/the-us-already-had-a-conversation-about-guns-and-the-pro-side-won/266335/

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Good post, thanks.

On the other hand, the fact that we "already had" the discussion does not prevent us from "continuing to have" the discussion. To think, believe or behave otherwise, in my decidedly individual opinion, is both unrealistic and immaterial. Things are going to change; so must our perspectives as a people.

-- Daniel (Gun-Owner) Nighteyes

[Chris]

Well, I bought an AR15 today too. I was going to wait until Spring, but didn't want to take the risk... even though I think a ban is highly unlikely, ban fear could make them hard to find. I bought a 10 pack of 30 round mags to go with it.

[BENESSE]

Maybe the Gov't needs to go batchit crazy, and just outlaw ALL guns, so the criminals can't get them.

You keep bringing up an issue NO ONE here is proposing. I guess it's easier than sticking to the actual topic. :innocent:
Is it any wonder we have these circular arguments about once a year?

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Well, I bought an AR15 today...

Been there, done that back in 2009. Of course, the canoeing accident took care of THAT little excursion...

[edr730]

I guess there are conspiracy theories on everything. Looks like there is one on this event too. http://www.lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-2-Mass-Shootings-Connected-To-Libor

[Jimmyq]

No AR15's up here in Canada but I have been thinking more seriously about starting my firearm collection. I have the licenses to purchase and own whats legal (shotguns, rifles, crossbows and handguns) up here but the funding always seems to get in the way....

[Winter]

It's all slight of hand. I think Obama works for Bushmaster.

[Phaedrus]

It's all slight of hand. I think Obama works for Bushmaster.


Hahaha! Yeah, that's what I told the guys at the gun shop. Obama is the best thing that's ever happened to gun dealers. I have been wanting an M4-type rifle for a long time but the economy makes it kinda tough. Well, not even that so much as my circumstances. I'm employed but I'm a middle aged guy that returned to get my Bachelor's Degree, so with school I don't have the cash I used to. Hopefully they'll be there to buy when I have the cash.

I'm going to join the NRA again when I get paid on Friday (unless the Mayans were right and the world ends, in which case it won't matter anyways!). I let my membership expire a ways back because as an organization I find them pretty skeevy. Sadly they're the most influencial group out there, so my enemies enemy will have to be my friend. Heard good things about GOA, so they'll probably get my money, too. I've been busy emailing every politician serves me (haha, if only they really did!) and letting them know politely but clearly that I won't tolerate any dilution of the 2nd amendment. And I let them know that I always always always vote, and I never forget!

[2dumb2kwit]

You keep bringing up an issue NO ONE here is proposing. I guess it's easier than sticking to the actual topic. :innocent:
Is it any wonder we have these circular arguments about once a year?

I was just making the point that laws won't stop criminals. Even if the Gov't went to the extremes that they have on drugs.(Which obviously didn't work.) Get it?

[Rick]

The bans in Chicago and D.C. have done such an effective job at reducing crime that I....wait a minute. They haven't done anything to reduce crime. Never mind.

[Rick]

New show coming this spring......

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QdLprPlH2V4/UIG1P3JGveI/AAAAAAAAS0I/Rhjdhjy0gwA/s1600/CENTER~1.JPG

[BENESSE]

I was just making the point that laws won't stop criminals. Even if the Gov't went to the extremes that they have on drugs.(Which obviously didn't work.) Get it?

I get that. However, that's not the issue being discussed. The latest spree of shootings wasn't done by criminals but by mental cases with no criminal record who chose firearms because it was easy and expedient.
The laws, existing (but not enforced), or new, will have to intervene in these cases before they act. No one is suggesting that we can stop every mad man out there every single time. But I am at least willing to try and stop a few because ANY lives we save are worth the try, IMO.
Again, you seem to be preaching to a choir, of which, believe it or not, I am part. Just because I sing in a different key doesn't make me an outsider no matter how convenient that would be for your arguments?:innocent:

[Chris]

Trying to stop madmen before they snap might be a bit like playing wac-a-mole. Do we start locking up people in mental institutions without due process or probable cause because we fear they might hurt someone? That is a really slippery slope. I'm married to a psychiatrist and I'm uncomfortable with the current relative lack of due process with commitments.

In a way, it reminds me of birth control. Why is there no birth control pill for men? Because in women, the pill has to just stop 1 thing, in men it would have to stop several million things.

No matter what you'll never catch every crazy person out there, not unless we all gave up all of our freedoms. So rather than trying to slap every mosquito that flies at you, just wear a mosquito net. Instead of trying to stop every crazy person before they want to shoot up a school, expect someone will try, and at that point make sure that the school is not a soft target. Cameras, gates, stronger windows, stronger doors, turnstiles, and a shotgun locked up in the office.

Then, for crying out loud, let responsible civilians carry concealed weapons at malls, theaters, and all the other soft targets we have.

[BENESSE]

Chris, none of the things you are suggesting are mutually exclusive. We need to do it all. And if one of the few whose life gets saved happens to be your child or your wife, trust me, you won't be quibbling over how we can't save them all so why even try.

[LowKey]

If the gun owners/sympathizers on this forum can't agree, what chance is there that a bunch of anti-gunners, who are shutting out the law-abiding gun folks, are gonna come up with a viable solution? If they don't want to talk to the NRA there are sportsmen's associations and wildlife associations out there. I can think of Ducks Unlimited and any of the various state Wildlife Management people.

I joined the NRA because I had to, to shoot in competitions. My mailbox fills up with their junk at least twice a month. I joined and more actively support my local state gun owners' group because they really need the money to keep an eye on things here in this state. The NRA has pretty much written off Massachusetts. The state group isn't as venomous as the NRA but because they are an NRA affiliate they do have issues with membership. Maybe 20k of the 60k gun owners in the state.
It really is too bad that large silent majority has no voice.

[Rick]

Looks like Biden is in charge of finding a solution to "mass shootings" whatever that means. Maybe a school version of "Fast and Furious" is in the works.

[2dumb2kwit]

Chris, none of the things you are suggesting are mutually exclusive. We need to do it all. And if one of the few whose life gets saved happens to be your child or your wife, trust me, you won't be quibbling over how we can't save them all so why even try.

What if your child is one who dies, because they imposed laws that hurt safety, rather than helping it....just for the appearance of "doing something"?

[2dumb2kwit]

Looks like Biden is in charge of finding a solution to "mass shootings" whatever that means. Maybe a school version of "Fast and Furious" is in the works.

I.....He......They........aw, nevermind. I just can't do it , without going over the political line.:2:

[kyratshooter]

Quit arguing, whining and worrying and e-mail your congressmen!

[2dumb2kwit]

I get that. However, that's not the issue being discussed. The latest spree of shootings wasn't done by criminals but by mental cases with no criminal record who chose firearms because it was easy and expedient.
The laws, existing (but not enforced), or new, will have to intervene in these cases before they act. No one is suggesting that we can stop every mad man out there every single time. But I am at least willing to try and stop a few because ANY lives we save are worth the try, IMO.
Again, you seem to be preaching to a choir, of which, believe it or not, I am part. Just because I sing in a different key doesn't make me an outsider no matter how convenient that would be for your arguments?:innocent:

So far, all I've heard the Gov't talk about, to solve the problem, is more gun control. Gun control that history has shown us, does not solve the problem. Everything that they have talked about, has been shown to do no good and in most cases, do harm.

Stats and studies show us that around 10,000 people are killed by guns, every year in this country. They also show us that in the same time period and country, guns are used defensively somewhere between 1.5 and 3 million times. Can you guarantee that what ever gun is outlawed, is one that would have murdered someone, and is not one that would have saved lives? The odds are pretty big in favor of it being one that would have saved lives.

[Chris]

I agree, do it all. That's what I'm saying.