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natertot
11-14-2012, 05:43 PM
I am not getting into politics, but I am deeply concerned about the recent petitions for state secessions. Over thrity states have one, two of which have reached the number of signatures that is suppose to require a response from the White House.

Concern #1: What will the impact be of states seceeding if granted by the prez?
Concern #2: What will occur if the states are denied their petition?
Concern #3: What will occur should the prez ignore the petitions?

The thought of that small little incident that occured 150 years has popped into my mind, not that it is my desire. I am concerned.

canid
11-14-2012, 06:00 PM
The secessionins movements in most of these states are nothing new, many having been around since the civil war and before. It has for example long been moderately popular in Texas, which state actually set the precedent for the Supreme Court's position that unilateral secession is unconstitutional. This was back in 1868.

In my view, the primary difference today is the availability, and ease of mass public communication about the We The People platform at the White House's website.

cowgirlup
11-14-2012, 06:00 PM
1. It won't be granted
2. There will be a lot of yelling and complaining and then it will die out or some other event will come along and everyone will forget about it.
3. See #2

I could be wrong but that seems most likely to me.

canid
11-14-2012, 06:02 PM
Remember that the president does not have the authority to allow a state to secede. That would require the bi-lateral agreement of congres and that state's legislature. That question was settled during the Civil War.

natertot
11-14-2012, 06:27 PM
Just an update, all 50 states now have a petition............

canid
11-14-2012, 06:31 PM
A petition on the internet anybody with an email address can sign?

That's probably why somebody made this gem:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-united-states-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/VPHgP802

and this one: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-city-austin-texas-withdraw-state-texas-remain-part-united-states/TDD212hQ

kyratshooter
11-14-2012, 06:37 PM
You people in the blue states can look at this as a joke all you wish,

The people in the red states are a bit more serious than you might think.

canid
11-14-2012, 06:40 PM
That makes it more amusing, not less.

canid
11-14-2012, 06:42 PM
I won't say it isn't sad, but I prefer to laugh at foolishness rather than to indulge it.

kyratshooter
11-14-2012, 06:48 PM
This thread just went political due to not being able to respond to such general disrespect without political discourse.

crashdive123
11-14-2012, 07:01 PM
I am not getting into politics, but I am deeply concerned about the recent petitions for state secessions. Over thrity states have one, two of which have reached the number of signatures that is suppose to require a response from the White House.

Concern #1: What will the impact be of states seceeding if granted by the prez?
Concern #2: What will occur if the states are denied their petition?
Concern #3: What will occur should the prez ignore the petitions?

The thought of that small little incident that occured 150 years has popped into my mind, not that it is my desire. I am concerned.

1. Ain't gonna happen. The President does not have the authority.
2. The states are not petitioning. These are being done be citizens.
3. Nothing. This Administration started a website that allows citizens to petition the government https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/ The last petition that was responded to was to make public the White House Chocolate Chip Cookie Recipe.

I'll add a 4th...

Do you really believe that those that sign one of these petitions will not end up on some government watch list????

Phaedrus
11-14-2012, 08:06 PM
I don't think the govt had time to do anything with a list of all the cranks in the US. There's just too many! Also, bear in mind that there's a threshold of petitions at which the White House will respond, but the response can be "go f&ck yourself" if they like. That's because it's not a law; the President just had the site set up to allow people to air their greivances. Lastly there's really no cut and dried way to leave the union. That was kind of the point of the Civil War. And just because you have X amount of nuts that want to seceede doesn't mean the whole state does. If 25,000 Texans and North Dakotans don't want to be Americans any longer, their simplest course of action is to pack up and move. Don't let the door hit you in the @ss on the way out.:yawnb:

On a serious note I do find it a bit disturbing. A certain segment of people are great with democracy when they win, but find it's not so hot when they lose. Perhaps they might found a new party? May I suggest the name, the "I'm Gonna Take My Ball and Go Home Party." It should find lots of new members every couple of years when a the needle swings across the midpoint to the other party. Nothing new here- both major parties have been seriously nipping at the sour grapes when they lose.

natertot
11-14-2012, 11:08 PM
I understand that the prez himself doesn't have the sole authority. I believe that when the country is completely divided nearly 50/50 on things, a fight (not necessarily war) is gonna brew. I agree with phaedrus, I doubt they are going to put a quarter million Americans on a watch list for peacefully expressing their disgust in the government.

KyRat is right though, people are serious. I am technically in a blue state, but only because of three major metro areas. The rest of my state is red, and p!$$ed. I really think that this could go somewhere, unless the federal gov tries to do some damage control.

Personally, I do wish the Prez would at least make a statement to acknowledge these petitions and express a concern and a desire to keep a united America.

canid
11-15-2012, 12:08 AM
It's not that he doesn't have sole authority, it's that he has zero authority. He arguably has the authority to deny such a decision, should it be made, as a matter of national security. It is entirely debatable whether the court would agree.

The supreme court has however settled the question of the right to secession. By process of law, secession would require the bi-lateral consent of the congress and that state's legislature. The only alternative route is the Constitution's assertion of the natural right to revolution. I don't see that particular eventuality coming 'round again, unless some more compelling circumstances should arise.

natertot
11-15-2012, 12:36 AM
The only alternative route is the Constitution's assertion of the natural right to revolution. I don't see that particular eventuality coming 'round again, unless some more compelling circumstances should arise.

And over 700K citizens openly challenging the Prez and whether or not decisions he has made are constitutional isn't compelling enough? Seven states now have the required 25K signatures, Texas has it's own army and navy, and R. Perry is simply trying to prevent a physical confrontation, and it isn't compelling enough? What is it that you woulf find compelling?

canid
11-15-2012, 12:46 AM
Should actual fighting begin to break out, I'll accept that it's happening. Until then, I trust my countrymen to remember the difference between grievance and warfare.

canid
11-15-2012, 12:47 AM
The overwhelming majority of them at any rate. Which 700k are we talking about?

Winter
11-15-2012, 12:51 AM
It's an interesting discussion.

The state legislature would have to put it to a vote, that result would be sent to the white house. The white house may deny it, but they would have to offer cause. Cause may be the feds belief that their resources in that state should either be paid for by the state, or remain in place (such as strategic missiles and military bases.)

GA has Ft Benning, some serious tit for tat would have to occur. SC has the largest nuclear misslie arsenal in the country. The feds wouldn't wanna incur the costs of moving them and repositioning them. A state would have to pay for that. In the case of a military base, the state would be hard pressed to pay for that base.

Any state in debt could never afford to secede.

Alaska could probably foot the bill to secede by granting the US a military reservation and discounted oil, but it would cost the entire permanant fund and institute a state, of New country of Alaska TAX.


Hundreds of billions of bucks are involved.

1stimestar
11-15-2012, 01:30 AM
I really don't consider signing an online petition that someone else wrote, sent to you in email or on Facebook, and which you signed sitting in your bathrob watching The Voice, a direct threat, or as openly challenging the President.

natertot
11-15-2012, 01:52 AM
The 700k citizens I was refering to was those who have signed state petitions. Yes, their is a difference between grievence and warefare. My fear is that the neglect of one will lead to another. Not that I welcome the later, but to ignore it may prove folly in the future.

I do consider the signers to be open. The signing requires first/last name, e-mail, and zip code. If one does not think the feds can't find you on that info, might want to reconsider.

Winter: Good thoughts there that I haven't gave consideration to. Thanks.

canid
11-15-2012, 02:56 AM
You think 700k unique people have signed those petitions?

Think that one through a little further. fraudulent signatures aside ( e.g. a petition to ban propane products was created on We The People by 'Hank H' of Arlen Texas), a substantial portion of those signers have signed multiple such petitions. a couple of states even have two such petitions.

jfeatherjohn
11-15-2012, 11:12 AM
Should actual fighting begin to break out, I'll accept that it's happening. Until then, I trust my countrymen to remember the difference between grievance and warfare.

Well said!

Cast-Iron
11-15-2012, 11:49 AM
I don't believe this amounts to anything more than 0.2% of the populace venting their frustrations with Washington. It is statistically insignificant. I'm not endorsing or attacking the message or the messenger, just pointing out that 700,000 / 314,000,000 = 0.002229.

Sarge47
11-15-2012, 01:29 PM
Do you mean to tell me that we're NOT seceding? And I just put together a Confederate uniform too! Drat! :innocent: :sneaky2:

crashdive123
11-15-2012, 02:08 PM
Sarge --- it won't work. We've been trying to get your state to secede for years.:innocent:

BENESSE
11-15-2012, 03:10 PM
How can we miss you if you won't secede?

2dumb2kwit
11-15-2012, 03:30 PM
I was getting ready to call B.S. on 700,000 people signing up, then I realized they were trying to "secede", not succeed.

2dumb2kwit
11-15-2012, 03:43 PM
Being a little more serious, it really is a small percentage of people. Now the question is why does it seem like such a big deal. I'll give two options for this.

1. In this day and time every person who has a gripe can be seen/heard all over the world, right now. It doesn't take a 30% movement in people to get attention.

2. It's a great diversion. If the media keeps attention drawn to this, what is being ignored?

canid
11-15-2012, 03:53 PM
You may have nailed it.

cowgirlup
11-15-2012, 04:13 PM
Being a little more serious, it really is a small percentage of people. Now the question is why does it seem like such a big deal. I'll give two options for this.

1. In this day and time every person who has a gripe can be seen/heard all over the world, right now. It doesn't take a 30% movement in people to get attention.

2. It's a great diversion. If the media keeps attention drawn to this, what is being ignored?

Actually that's what I was thinking about the whole Petraeus thing. I've been checking BBC online to see what else is goimg on.

crashdive123
11-15-2012, 04:58 PM
......It's a great diversion. If the media keeps attention drawn to this, what is being ignored?

Bengahzi.

.

Cast-Iron
11-15-2012, 07:31 PM
If at first you don't secede, try try again!

Rick
11-15-2012, 07:42 PM
Under the Articles of Confederation there might have been an argument for secession by states. It expressly asserted the rights of states. However, the Constitution of the United States vests the power in the federal government and the states no longer have a right to change the U.S. Constitution as they could have the Articles of Confederation. They can make up all the lists and petitions they want but it is all just barking with no bite. That don't have the authority.

Sarge47
11-16-2012, 12:17 AM
Sarge --- it won't work. We've been trying to get your state to secede for years.:innocent:

Hear dat! :surrender:

Phaedrus
11-16-2012, 03:47 AM
[/B]

Actually that's what I was thinking about the whole Petraeus thing. I've been checking BBC online to see what else is goimg on.

That whole deal really disappointed me. He was a brilliant general and probably would have been great as CIA chief. Lots otherwise great men have been undone by the inability to "keep it in their pants."

crashdive123
11-16-2012, 06:16 AM
And for others it seems to have been a resume enhancement.

Wildthang
11-16-2012, 09:00 AM
They are just trying to send the government a message that will not be heard!

BENESSE
11-16-2012, 10:33 AM
That whole deal really disappointed me. He was a brilliant general and probably would have been great as CIA chief. Lots otherwise great men have been undone by the inability to "keep it in their pants."

Well obviously not. Glad we discovered this earlier in a relatively trivial matter, than later, when much more could be at stake. I would think that part of being a great CIA anything involves knowing how to keep secrets secret. That's much more important than him "stepping out" on his wife which only makes him a scumbag. IMHO.

canid
11-16-2012, 11:10 AM
Another part is concealing - or better still, not having - any compromising baggage which could be leveraged against you to influence your actions or decisions.

crashdive123
11-16-2012, 03:53 PM
Does anybody else find it disturbing that the head of the worlds largest spy agency did not know that the FBI was spying on him for several months?

BENESSE
11-16-2012, 04:06 PM
Does anybody else find it disturbing that the head of the worlds largest spy agency did not know that the FBI was spying on him for several months?

Absolutely!
But then gift just keeps on giving.

2dumb2kwit
11-16-2012, 04:31 PM
And for others it seems to have been a resume enhancement.

Well....for that, the affair has to be with a VERY young intern, or a guy in the airport restroom.

2dumb2kwit
11-16-2012, 04:33 PM
Does anybody else find it disturbing that the head of the worlds largest spy agency did not know that the FBI was spying on him for several months?

There are a whole bunch of things about this, that disturb me. The timing being one of the biggies.

Rick
11-18-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm thinking iceberg.

BENESSE
11-18-2012, 06:46 PM
I'm thinking iceberg.

Yeah. It'll be big, it'll melt, and we'll be back to bidness as usual. No consequences, no repercussions.

canid
11-18-2012, 07:42 PM
Well; not entirely. I seem to be losing business, with family what's more, over this.

BENESSE
11-18-2012, 07:59 PM
Well; not entirely. I seem to be losing business, with family what's more, over this.

It must be slow in the Canid household. :innocent:

Sarge47
11-19-2012, 08:33 AM
Does anybody else find it disturbing that the head of the worlds largest spy agency did not know that the FBI was spying on him for several months?Well, when it was discovered that Aldrich Ames, who manned the Soviet desk for the CIA, was selling secrets to the Russkies, the CIA had to turn the investigation over to the FBI as they cannot do anything "in-country." Aldrich never knew that he was being watched untill they pulled him over in his car and arrested him! Those guys are good! :cool2:

Daniel Nighteyes
11-19-2012, 07:11 PM
Like several others I regard this whole thing as being slightly humorous, but certainly nothing to underestimate. Of the people who desire their states to secede, I only ask that they be certain they understand the full, economic, impact of secession.

As one example ONLY, the "secessionist" states (with one or two exceptions) consume far more Federal financial benefits than they contribute in the form of taxes and etc. In other words, a very large portion of the Federal funds these states now receive actually come from the contributions of the "Blue" states and metropolitan areas. If the "secessionist" states actually secede, how will they compensate for the sudden & dramatic loss of funds? As an aside would they not, in doing so, actually spur the growth & development of the very same "Blue" states and metropolitan areas from which they seceded by instantly and significantly reducing their tax burdens?

This is only one of serveral very important issues, and I am trying very hard not to take a position here. I am merely, albeit rather deeply, concerned because I still have a lot of family (nuclear and extended) residing in said "secessionist" states.

-- Nighteyes

2dumb2kwit
11-19-2012, 10:25 PM
Like several others I regard this whole thing as being slightly humorous, but certainly nothing to underestimate. Of the people who desire their states to secede, I only ask that they be certain they understand the full, economic, impact of secession.

As one example ONLY, the "secessionist" states (with one or two exceptions) consume far more Federal financial benefits than they contribute in the form of taxes and etc. In other words, a very large portion of the Federal funds these states now receive actually come from the contributions of the "Blue" states and metropolitan areas. If the "secessionist" states actually secede, how will they compensate for the sudden & dramatic loss of funds? As an aside would they not, in doing so, actually spur the growth & development of the very same "Blue" states and metropolitan areas from which they seceded by instantly and significantly reducing their tax burdens?

This is only one of serveral very important issues, and I am trying very hard not to take a position here. I am merely, albeit rather deeply, concerned because I still have a lot of family (nuclear and extended) residing in said "secessionist" states.

-- Nighteyes

You would also have to look at where the blue states get their money. How much of it comes from red states, in a form other than taxes? What if all the big insurance companies in Mass. stopped getting any money from red states. What if wall street stopped getting any money from red states? (Not to mention the affect of cutting out middle-men and Gov't bureaucracy.)

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm kind of agreeing with you. I'm not sure which color state would end up with less money, but I'm sure that it's far more complex than we would ever sort out on a internet forum.:surrender:

Cast-Iron
11-20-2012, 08:38 AM
Are we missing the forest for the trees?

The size of our federal deficit suggests that all states receive more dollars than they contribute. Some substantially more than others, but it is all fiat currency anyway. Dollars created out of thin air in the name of "Quantitative Easing". Living within your means is something most Americans deal with everyday. A policy these same Americans would like to see practiced in their government.

kyratshooter
11-20-2012, 12:25 PM
Blue state/Red state finances! Control of the FED! How much will it cost ME?

Is that all there is?

If I remember correctly the last line of the Declaration of Independence has the signers pledging their "lives fortunes and sacred honor".

It says nowhere that they can sell out if it becomes financially uncomfortable.

Our nation has lost its focus. It used to be life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, now it is just pursuit of money, given, stolen or confiscated, with no reguard for the lives ruined or the liberty lost.

We no longer live in the nation I was born in, or the country I fought for. They may have the ability to take what they want, but I owe them nothing.

There are millions that feel the same way, and if you look past the government sponsored history books and into the journals and letters of the people during and after the last Civil War you will find that they felt much the same. Our government has lost the hearts and minds of 1/2 the population, and they do not care. I think they are actually glad for the distinct polarization. It makes the opposition easier to identify and deal with.

BENESSE
11-20-2012, 12:56 PM
Kyrat, it all depends on where one is (or was throughout history) on the socioeconomic scale. The disadvantaged and marginalized weren't happy then & aren't happy now.
"The men who built America" (an amazing series on the History channel) were just as crooked and corrupt as some of the movers and shakers are now. We just tend to gloss over those parts when we recall the glory of the olden days.
(http://www.history.com/shows/men-who-built-america/videos/?mkwid=srSlpAEkH_pcrid_16911626118_pkw_the%20men%2 0who%20built%20america_pmt_e&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=the%20men%20who%20built%20america&utm_campaign=G_MWBA&paidlink=1&cmpid=PaidSearch_google_G_MWBA_the%20men%20who%20b uilt%20america#the-men-who-built-america-andrew-carnegie)

The players are different now, but if we're to be intellectually honest, not much has changed.

kyratshooter
11-20-2012, 01:20 PM
The concept that it might be time to change those shortgommings has escaped all.

hunter63
11-20-2012, 01:36 PM
Krat,... that's 47%, not 1/2 of the population.....Heard it on the TV.......

Wildthang
11-20-2012, 01:51 PM
I'm a bottom line guy, and I think we are all screwed. Not much else to say!

BENESSE
11-20-2012, 02:03 PM
No one is going to get out of this life without being screwed at some point. We're all trying to minimize the degree to which that happens. That's what preps are...that's what insurance is.
Y'all please tell me who, when and where has gotten away unscathed at any point in time anywhere?
$hit eventually happens even to the smartest, strongest and luckiest. It's how humanity rolls and we can't change that. Evidently, not even God can.

2dumb2kwit
11-20-2012, 03:46 PM
Kyrat, it all depends on where one is (or was throughout history) on the socioeconomic scale. The disadvantaged and marginalized weren't happy then & aren't happy now.
"The men who built America" (an amazing series on the History channel) were just as crooked and corrupt as some of the movers and shakers are now. We just tend to gloss over those parts when we recall the glory of the olden days.
(http://www.history.com/shows/men-who-built-america/videos/?mkwid=srSlpAEkH_pcrid_16911626118_pkw_the%20men%2 0who%20built%20america_pmt_e&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=the%20men%20who%20built%20america&utm_campaign=G_MWBA&paidlink=1&cmpid=PaidSearch_google_G_MWBA_the%20men%20who%20b uilt%20america#the-men-who-built-america-andrew-carnegie)

The players are different now, but if we're to be intellectually honest, not much has changed.

Well....yes and no. There will always be big shots taking advantage of whoever they can. You are right, that will never change. What has changed, is the people in the middle and lower part of the "socioeconomic scale". There is an ever growing number of these people who are going from a self responsible mindset, to an entitlement mentality. Most of the people we fuss about, just cater to those people.

Geek
11-20-2012, 05:38 PM
While the topic seems a bit "out there" at the moment, there is no naturaal law insuring that any particular government will last forever. If enough people decide that the Federal Government has become unattractive change will occur. If we get to that point, an ability for non-violent secession strikes me as more attractive than the alternative.

Wildthang
11-20-2012, 05:56 PM
No one is going to get out of this life without being screwed at some point. We're all trying to minimize the degree to which that happens. That's what preps are...that's what insurance is.
Y'all please tell me who, when and where has gotten away unscathed at any point in time anywhere?
$hit eventually happens even to the smartest, strongest and luckiest. It's how humanity rolls and we can't change that. Evidently, not even God can.

No argument there Nessie, and I am staying prepped and as unscrewed as I can, but if we even once think that the Goverment is going to straighten this mess out, we are only fooling ourselves. I really don't blame Texas at all for what they are doing, and it would be so cool if they could actually succeed!

BENESSE
11-20-2012, 06:18 PM
No argument there Nessie, and I am staying prepped and as unscrewed as I can, but if we even once think that the Goverment is going to straighten this mess out, we are only fooling ourselves. I really don't blame Texas at all for what they are doing, and it would be so cool if they could actually succeed!

Who do you think "the Government" is? It's "Us". Just regular people who we vote for and hope they end up doing what they said they would. We don't all agree on what's most important, so someone is always going to be ticked off, no matter who ends up winning our vote. I don't blame anyone or any state for legally doing what's right for them.

Geek
11-20-2012, 07:22 PM
Who do you think "the Government" is? It's "Us". Just regular people who we vote for and hope they end up doing what they said they would. We don't all agree on what's most important, so someone is always going to be ticked off, no matter who ends up winning our vote. I don't blame anyone or any state for legally doing what's right for them.

When people feel that they do not have any influence on the government then they no longer feel the government is "us". That is the whole point.

Not many people realize it today but in 1860 there were 4 significant parties. The Republicans were a relatively new party and only existed in the north. They weren't on the ballot in any of the southern states. Republicans won the northern states, and wound up winning the electoral college, but Lincoln only had 35% of the popular vote and he hadn't even been on the ballot in the south. The south felt they had been disenfranchised and seceded. The south did not feel they were part of an "us" when they couldn't even vote against the winning candidate.

I don't think we have that widespread a feeling of disenfranchisement today, but at least some people feel they are shut out of the process and would be better off without the federal government and that is where the secession petitions come from.

Rick
11-20-2012, 07:28 PM
People never feel they have influence on the government. Not at any time in history and not in any country. Well, maybe in Monaco or Nauru. A mile or two is pretty easy to govern.

Cast-Iron
11-20-2012, 08:25 PM
People never feel they have influence on the government. Not at any time in history and not in any country. Well, maybe in Monaco or Nauru. A mile or two is pretty easy to govern.

You would think at least a slight majority of the people would feel they have some influence on the government on any given election. On a local level, I still feel like this holds true. On a national level, I have started to question the validity of a two party system. Especially since the one or two candidates I feel could make a difference aren't even on the ballot by the time the Texas primary rolls around. Have you ever wondered why the fine folks in New Hampshire and Iowa have a bigger say in the pool of candidates than the other 48 states? It has the appearance of systemic control. Sure I can go through the motion of a national primary, but I have often had trouble finding a desireable candidate among the few who are left in contention. All too often I feel as though I am left to choose the lesser of two evils. Perhaps a national primary with a run-off of the top two candidates might better represent the "will" of the people? Could it be any worse than the process we're stuck with now?

$0.02

WolfVanZandt
11-21-2012, 03:12 AM
I'm not worried too much about government. It's too hard for them to do anything devastating. I like there to be enough monkeywrenches in Washington that no one can do anything unless everybody works together to get it done.

Change comes from the bottom, not the top. If we let things just happen then they will but we don't have to.

Geek
11-21-2012, 06:53 AM
You would think at least a slight majority of the people would feel they have some influence on the government on any given election. On a local level, I still feel like this holds true. On a national level, I have started to question the validity of a two party system. Especially since the one or two candidates I feel could make a difference aren't even on the ballot by the time the Texas primary rolls around. Have you ever wondered why the fine folks in New Hampshire and Iowa have a bigger say in the pool of candidates than the other 48 states? It has the appearance of systemic control. Sure I can go through the motion of a national primary, but I have often had trouble finding a desireable candidate among the few who are left in contention. All too often I feel as though I am left to choose the lesser of two evils. Perhaps a national primary with a run-off of the top two candidates might better represent the "will" of the people? Could it be any worse than the process we're stuck with now?

$0.02

I think a lot of people voice the sentiment in Rick's comment, but I agree with you that at least a majority of those who vote should feel good after each election. I think one of the reasons our government has had such a long run is that we get regular opportunities to make a change if we don't like the way things are going. Whatever one thinks about the current cast of characters in DC, we voted for them so somebody should be happy about the result. I think where the secessionist sentiment comes from is that things have been bad enough that there was an expectation of a change of administration that then didn't happen. Some folks were really surprised by that and consequently very frustrated.

Geek
11-21-2012, 07:11 AM
I'm not worried too much about government. It's too hard for them to do anything devastating. I like there to be enough monkeywrenches in Washington that no one can do anything unless everybody works together to get it done.

Change comes from the bottom, not the top. If we let things just happen then they will but we don't have to.

The things that they might do are more likely to be unintended consequences than deliberate choices. For example, Obamacare is well intended, but if they got it wrong we will suffer from declining quality or availability of healthcare. We'll know the answer over time.

The "monkeywrenches" are constitution restrictions on government. Again the secessionist movement is showing that some people feel those restrictions are not working any longer. At present that is a small number, but the fact that it exists at all should be taken seriously.

WolfVanZandt
11-21-2012, 08:06 PM
Hmmm....hasn't there always been secessionist movements. The county of VanZandt in Texas decided to secede from Texas on fine day and announced their intentions. Texas proceeded to get all up in arms and got an army together to go and set the VanZandtians straight. When they arrived no one was home. They had all called the whole thing off and gone to Aunt Beulah's (fictitious name, there) for dinner on the ground. I think it was Vermont that decided to secede during the Revolution and, of course, that Civil War thing.

Government is a complicated thing full of chaos and, of course, one of the well known characteristics of chaotic systems is the unexpected outcome. Almost literally anything they decide to do in Washington may blow up in their (our) faces. It's always been that way.

Rick
11-21-2012, 09:55 PM
Politicians are no different today than they were 200 years ago. Voters aren't either. Zachary Taylor, John Tyler, Millard Fillmore to name a few. And it's not just Washington either. How about "Boss" Tweed, Thomas Dyer, Richard Daley or Huey Long to name a few more?

WolfVanZandt
11-22-2012, 01:13 AM
Heh, yeah. It's always worse when you're personally involved.

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Шилл (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1306946)сери (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1565364)Zone (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1783887)Абду (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1350947)Tosh (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1245182)Хижн (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1225088)Коха (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1227772)Zone (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1711684)Дале (http://landreform.ru/t/1346679)*удн (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1253656)О`Фа (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1382537)букв (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161434)хоро (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1163286)меся (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/713)Phil (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590777)

yellowcab
03-19-2026, 08:29 PM
иллю (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178609)Проб (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451454)Zanu (http://layabout.ru/shop/452997)Свет (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/290463)Toge (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105973)Marc (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/465642)Гузе (http://leaveword.ru/shop/465886)Ruya (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/268710)Chic (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/575387)Кита (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/267968)Rock (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268624)М-54 (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/574927)Pier (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/557774)ARAG (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/160381)entu (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/614134)
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Taba (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513773)Челы (http://rearchain.ru/shop/649977)just (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/636222)Влад (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/958788)Спед (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1054406)Панк (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1063134)Matz (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1680525)Сидо (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693568)ащоа (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1762152)Piet (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1281621)Engl (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1817025)Лаза (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1056539)Keit (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1375454)выру (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1860174)wwwn (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1480363)
Егор (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1493159)Malc (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1478467)Бенд (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1494711)Ежик (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1552228)Бело (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1416867)Jorg (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1487490)Аром (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/338431)Лукь (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/400396)Форм (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/401548)Козл (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1686714)меся (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/713)меся (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/713)меся (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/713)Скре (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/483462)Anne (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/490962)
Кали (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/498830)Jewe (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/483696)Друж (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/488227)Иман (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/499642)Агап (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1822425)Болт (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1880903)*аск (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/753718)Форм (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/776910)*кол (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/401530)Аром (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/981168)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Марч (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/981531)Open (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/483808)

yellowcab
05-30-2026, 02:05 AM
geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)
lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)
radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)
seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)
tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)
gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)
kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)

yellowcab
05-30-2026, 02:06 AM
negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)
filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)
tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)
generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)
technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)
headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)