View Full Version : First gun-California
Kosuki
08-08-2012, 03:44 PM
As a California resident I am limited on the "Legal" guns I can own.
As I decided to purchase my first gun I decided upon a shotgun
I have fired many shotguns (out of state) everything from a Mossberg 500/590/930/935, Remington 870, Beneli M2/M4, Sagia 12's, and a old fashion Armsel Striker Street Sweeper.
Living in Cali, I had to limit my options and I am going with a Mossberg 500 Persuader. I will get is stock with the Home Defense and turkey/fowl barrels. I am going with a few aftermarket parks though. Keeping it simple yet practical.
Stock: Black Hawk Stock (http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SpecOps-NRS-Gen-II-Adjustable-Shotgun-Stock,1806,165.htm)
SideSaddle: Tac Star Side Saddle (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/386040/tacstar-sidesaddle-shotshell-ammunition-carrier-12-gauge-6-round-mossberg-500-590-600-black)
Forend: Forend (http://www.sears.com/aim-sports-mossberg-500-forend-polymer-and/p-SPM6997311102P?prdNo=18)
As for a optional gunlight Ill go with a Surefire Universal X series rifle light
Light 1 (http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/rifle-carbine-smg/x-seriesweaponlights/x300-led-weaponlight.html)
If I do not get the Tri Trail forend ill go with this light
Light 2 (http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/shotgun-forend/mossberg590500.html)
Let me know what you thing. Please post any comments or suggestions you have on this build. dont worry about ammo I am set on ammo.
Kosuki
kyratshooter
08-08-2012, 04:11 PM
Good luck with that!
I have the 500 as well. What will all the accessories buy you? And you already have 8 shot capacity.
hunter63
08-08-2012, 04:17 PM
I'm thinking you can't go wrong with the Mossberg, and as far as the add on stuff, at least the stock will extend to full size for hunting, when not 'street sweeping".
I'm also thinking that those light are vastly over priced, for the amount of use you will be getting from them....that forearm you posted can mount most any kind of flashlight, and have enough money left over for another Mossberg.....Just my opinion.....
Congrats.
Kosuki
08-08-2012, 04:22 PM
I have the 500 as well. What will all the accessories buy you? And you already have 8 shot capacity.
The green letters are hot links ^^
karatediver
08-08-2012, 06:35 PM
I've shot Mossbergs and Remingtons and both worked just fine. Some folks prefer one over the other but I think it usually comes down to the Chevy vs Ford arguments.
kyratshooter
08-08-2012, 07:01 PM
Let me know what you thing. Please post any comments or suggestions you have on this build. dont worry about ammo I am set on ammo.
Kosuki
Now do you really want to know what I think or are you just looking for 5 pages of "that's great!" posts?
canid
08-08-2012, 07:25 PM
What we need to do is take up a collection to hire an extra two people to perform the state's per model safety testing on handguns. that should triple their productivity...
Sorry. I didn't mean what will you buy. I meant what will it buy you over and above the weapon? Why the add ons? Just curious.
RandyRhoads
08-08-2012, 07:54 PM
Just a thought, before you buy that stock or anything for that matter make sure it's what you will like in the end. I went through just about every part before I found what I liked on mine. Now I have a bunch of parts taking up space.
I like this style of stock, still can be used for home defense, but unfolds to a good length to shoulder and aim. It also can hold 5 rounds. I don't know how other people feel about the Tacstar sidesaddle but I found it to be a POS. Maybe use some lock tite when you put it on and it will work better.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1556.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1557.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1558.jpg
hunter63
08-08-2012, 08:23 PM
Each to his oun, but if it were me I would try out the folding stock/pistol grip before shelling out the cash.
I prefer the standard stock/forearm with out all the stuff hanging on it, but that's just me.....maybe not cool to some, but my preference.
Still have a bullpup stock set up for a ruger 10/22 that was a waste of money....as it's just sitting here.
Kosuki
08-08-2012, 09:01 PM
I've shot Mossbergs and Remingtons and both worked just fine. Some folks prefer one over the other but I think it usually comes down to the Chevy vs Ford arguments.
That is true. Some people like red, other like blue ^^
Now do you really want to know what I think or are you just looking for 5 pages of "that's great!" posts?
I really want to know your opinion. When I ask what do you think I mean it what do you think :) (On topic of course). So tell me what your opinions are and what you may add or change or what I could add or change
What we need to do is take up a collection to hire an extra two people to perform the state's per model safety testing on handguns. that should triple their productivity...
? Ya lost me bro lol
Sorry. I didn't mean what will you buy. I meant what will it buy you over and above the weapon? Why the add ons? Just curious.
Oh, got ya. The rails will buy me the adaption for universal adapters to the shotgun if I wanted. Thats why those are 100% optional to me.
The Recoil reduction stock allows my shoulder not to get the sh*t kicked out of it(Its dislocated 5 times (long story) )
The side saddle will give me 6 extra rounds for home defense.
The light will allow me to identify my target for any Nighttime deployments of my shotgun.
Just a thought, before you buy that stock or anything for that matter make sure it's what you will like in the end. I went through just about every part before I found what I liked on mine. Now I have a bunch of parts taking up space.
I like this style of stock, still can be used for home defense, but unfolds to a good length to shoulder and aim. It also can hold 5 rounds. I don't know how other people feel about the Tacstar sidesaddle but I found it to be a POS. Maybe use some lock tite when you put it on and it will work better.
I have read reviews on the saddle I may change it or yes use locktite (P.S. finger nail polish can be substituted in emergency or low budget for locktite).
I like the stock on your shotgun, I have fired shotguns with those stocks before it is great, but its not for me. Thank you for the pictures, that is a very nice shotgun, and well maintained from what I can tell.
Each to his oun, but if it were me I would try out the folding stock/pistol grip before shelling out the cash.
I prefer the standard stock/forearm with out all the stuff hanging on it, but that's just me.....maybe not cool to some, but my preference.
Still have a bullpup stock set up for a ruger 10/22 that was a waste of money....as it's just sitting here.
I hear ya on the 10/22. I love the simpleness and clean looking stock shotguns. I have tried the Folding stocks and the pistols and like them but its just not for me. I need the black hawk stock for the recoil reduction. II know they make a standard recoil reduction stock but I like the pistol grip.
oldtrap59
08-08-2012, 09:18 PM
I shoot a 870 and my son shots a 500 which I shot for a few years before he took it over. Both guns imo are hard to beat. Also imo why all the extra add ons? Either way you go you already have a shotgun that will do just about all you could ask of it. As far as kick. My 870 doesn't bother my 3 time dislocated shoulder. It's your choice though so do as you think best for you.
OT
hunter63
08-08-2012, 09:31 PM
Guns don't kick if you are shooting at game....just when you are fooling around, with pattering and blowing up pumpkins and such.
canid
08-08-2012, 09:57 PM
Kosuki: I was making a humorous reference to the fact that handguns in California are only lawful for sale or import on an as-approved basis, following a safety testing proccess which is characteristically slow in the way that under-funded/under-motivated bureaucratic things tend to be. Compared to the extremely long list of handguns in the world in the acceptable to high quality category, the california certified handgun list is an excruciatingly small one.
oldtrap59
08-08-2012, 10:25 PM
canid. How's that working out for California? Not trying to be funny. Just wondering if you think all that is making it any safer to live in that state?
OT
Batch
08-08-2012, 10:31 PM
Randy,
I bet it would damned near take an act of congress to get that safety off on that thing if you needed to.
Either the Mossy or the Remington are solid guns. I am as guilty as the next guy of tacticool. I have a Mossberg 590 and a box of crap that I realize doesn't belong on the gun. Then I have some more crap that I realize doesn't belong on the gun. But.. Hey it looks really cool and it does give me a handy zombie gun.
Shoot what ever it is you get. my brother bought a Benelli Super Nova and only shot a couple of boxes through it before turkey season. He drew down on a gobbler and she no go bang. Went back to the camp and shot a couple shells through it and it worked fine. Went back out and had another failure to fire. He sent the gun back and they fixed it. I don't recall what they said teh problem was. But, any hunter on here find that acceptable? LOL
If I had advice it would be get the gun and go pattern it with the ammo you are going to use in it. Then run some ammo through it and learn the gun. If you think you need the extra rounds get a longer mag tube if allowed.
Sarge47
08-08-2012, 10:37 PM
As a California resident I am limited on the "Legal" guns I can own.
As I decided to purchase my first gun I decided upon a shotgun
I have fired many shotguns (out of state) everything from a Mossberg 500/590/930/935, Remington 870, Beneli M2/M4, Sagia 12's, and a old fashion Armsel Striker Street Sweeper.
Living in Cali, I had to limit my options and I am going with a Mossberg 500 Persuader. I will get is stock with the Home Defense and turkey/fowl barrels. I am going with a few aftermarket parks though. Keeping it simple yet practical.
Stock: Black Hawk Stock (http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SpecOps-NRS-Gen-II-Adjustable-Shotgun-Stock,1806,165.htm)
SideSaddle: Tac Star Side Saddle (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/386040/tacstar-sidesaddle-shotshell-ammunition-carrier-12-gauge-6-round-mossberg-500-590-600-black)
Forend: Forend (http://www.sears.com/aim-sports-mossberg-500-forend-polymer-and/p-SPM6997311102P?prdNo=18)
As for a optional gunlight Ill go with a Surefire Universal X series rifle light
Light 1 (http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/rifle-carbine-smg/x-seriesweaponlights/x300-led-weaponlight.html)
If I do not get the Tri Trail forend ill go with this light
Light 2 (http://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/shotgun-forend/mossberg590500.html)
Let me know what you thing. Please post any comments or suggestions you have on this build. dont worry about ammo I am set on ammo.
Kosuki
If it works for you then it works for me. I use a single barrel .20 gauge myself, or at least I did before that horrible canoe accident! I'm still traumatized by that! :online2long:
Oh, yeah. The canoe accident. It was back in 2010. Hard to believe so many years have passed. One tends to block such things from memory. A survival trick of the specie I'm sure. It was one of those moments indelibly etched in your memory. I know exactly where I was at the very moment it happened. Sort of like Kennedy getting killed or the Space Shuttle disaster. You know exactly where you were the minute you heard about it. I was in the canoe. Like I said, hard to forget.
natertot
08-08-2012, 11:36 PM
Congrats on the addition! I grew up shooting 870's but I have had extensive use with mossy 500's and 590's in the Navy. That being said, I'll shoot a mossy just like I'll drive a chevy, but given a choice, I'll take the Remy like I'd take a ford.
(This should get a argument going for a while!!!!)
RandyRhoads
08-08-2012, 11:36 PM
Randy,
I bet it would damned near take an act of congress to get that safety off on that thing if you needed to.
That's only a problem when the stock is up, and when it's up it's next to my bed with the safety off and one in the tube so all I have to do is pick it up chamber one and fire. If the stock is down for bird hunting, it's not a problem.
Kosuki
08-09-2012, 01:16 AM
Kosuki: I was making a humorous reference to the fact that handguns in California are only lawful for sale or import on an as-approved basis, following a safety testing proccess which is characteristically slow in the way that under-funded/under-motivated bureaucratic things tend to be. Compared to the extremely long list of handguns in the world in the acceptable to high quality category, the california certified handgun list is an excruciatingly small one.
I got ya bro sorry I am a bit slow today, and busy. I get what your saying. As for the handguns list its a joke in my book. Its the honest citizen that gets screwed... I will get pictures up when I can and Ill start another thread when I get my first handgun, already have it picked out, but you have to wait for that post ^^
wtrfwlr
08-09-2012, 02:10 AM
That's only a problem when the stock is up, and when it's up it's next to my bed with the safety off and one in the tube so all I have to do is pick it up chamber one and fire. If the stock is down for bird hunting, it's not a problem.
A gun without a round in the chamber is nothing more than a metal pipe in my opinion.
RandyRhoads
08-09-2012, 04:25 AM
A gun without a round in the chamber is nothing more than a metal pipe in my opinion.
Last I checked I couldn't slide my hand a couple inches on a metal pipe and have it ready to blast a massive hole in something. I'm not going to keep one in the chamber and have the safety off. One or the other, and the safety is a pain. I can chamber a round just about as quick as I can pick it up.
canid
08-09-2012, 06:49 AM
I know intellectually that it must help some. E.g. there are none of those designs which AD every single time you drop them available, and the minimum trigger pull is probably better enforced than in many other places which have one, and there aren't more than a couple 'saturday night specials'.
The can not ultimately do all that much to reduce crime because 1.) there are still a few cheap pistols certified for sale, 2.) there are still plenty of operable used pistols in poor condition on the used market who's values have fallen enough to make them very inexpensive and 3.) firearm theft does, and long has put high quality arms into the hands of even the brokest would be crook.
Reducing a trigger pull to unsafe levels can of course be done to any firearm. It's as easier as attempting do adjust it yourself for your first time, as a few owners will be able to attest.
The safety issue is obviously a hugely important social concern; firearm accidents after all account for a whopping almost half a percent of accidental deaths in the us. That's about 1/75th as many deaths as caused by vehicle accidents. Most firearm accidents (and deaths as a whole) are still those involving children. The lock requirement, and the fact that it's a felony criminal offense to allow a minor access to a firearm should they harm themselves, others or damage property with it is quite possibly the more effective approach. So for that matter is paying enough attention to your teen to know whether they are suicidal (another large chunk of gun fatalities).
As for the criminal effects; well, California is still one of the usual handful of leading states in a few categories of handgun crime. In firearm involved robberies, we're higher than most states, per capita, but then we're lower than most eastern and midwestern states. the same is true for firearm involved homicides. in firearm assaults in general, we're about average, but better than any southern state.
Basically; I can't see that it helps by any great degree. Leave it to the California people to decide whether that's worth their while, and their having only about 100 pistols to chose from. I can live with it if it's preventing any deaths and injuries, but that's not the same as liking it. It's also not the same as wishing it on all my neighbors (sorry Thoreau).
shaner
08-09-2012, 07:18 AM
all i can add is either mossberg or 870 will do u anything you want, alot of 870 police trade ins around also that can be had at a decent price if you have them in your area. i love my mossbergs , from HD to the field , swapping barrels on either is a big plus if your only going to own one shotgun,
2dumb2kwit
08-09-2012, 08:49 AM
It sounds like you have picked a good gun. My advice, for what little it's worth, is to shoot it....then shoot it some more....then go out and shoot it even more. If you are going to add a bunch of extra weight to the end of the thing, shoot it a bunch with the extra weight hung on it. The goal is to be so used to shooting that gun, that you can do anything with it, without really having to think about it.
The best tool in the world doesn't do you any good, unless you know how to use it.
(For the record....I'm just a dummy. Listen to what professionals say, if it's any different than what I say.)
wtrfwlr
08-09-2012, 09:23 AM
Last I checked I couldn't slide my hand a couple inches on a metal pipe and have it ready to blast a massive hole in something. I'm not going to keep one in the chamber and have the safety off. One or the other, and the safety is a pain. I can chamber a round just about as quick as I can pick it up.
That is exactly my point. I would never install an accessory on a gun that interfers with the operation of the safety. No offense intended, it's your gun and your choice, yours just happens of differ from mine.
karatediver
08-09-2012, 10:53 AM
Just be careful in CA with tacticool accessories. With the goofy laws in this state the wrong accessory can make your gun illegal if you are not careful. Even the cops don't understand the laws here and something that may be legal but looks too much like an evil "assault weapon" could get your gun confiscated and then good luck getting it back here without spending big $$$ on a lawyer. It ain't a free state.
As for the handgun list I agree that it is stupid. There are so many handguns that are available everywhere else that you cannot get here.
Kosuki
08-09-2012, 12:06 PM
That is exactly my point. I would never install an accessory on a gun that interfers with the operation of the safety. No offense intended, it's your gun and your choice, yours just happens of differ from mine.
I agree I am making sure, what ever is put on does not halt the operation of the weapon.
Just be careful in CA with tacticool accessories. With the goofy laws in this state the wrong accessory can make your gun illegal if you are not careful. Even the cops don't understand the laws here and something that may be legal but looks too much like an evil "assault weapon" could get your gun confiscated and then good luck getting it back here without spending big $$$ on a lawyer. It ain't a free state.
As for the handgun list I agree that it is stupid. There are so many handguns that are available everywhere else that you cannot get here.
Ya I know they ban guns because it looks scary not because how it perform... *SIDE NOTE* Ya well their are some scary looking cars on the road maybe they should ban them too... ^^
I know intellectually that it must help some. E.g. there are none of those designs which AD every single time you drop them available, and the minimum trigger pull is probably better enforced than in many other places which have one, and there aren't more than a couple 'saturday night specials'.
The can not ultimately do all that much to reduce crime because 1.) there are still a few cheap pistols certified for sale, 2.) there are still plenty of operable used pistols in poor condition on the used market who's values have fallen enough to make them very inexpensive and 3.) firearm theft does, and long has put high quality arms into the hands of even the brokest would be crook.
Reducing a trigger pull to unsafe levels can of course be done to any firearm. It's as easier as attempting do adjust it yourself for your first time, as a few owners will be able to attest.
The safety issue is obviously a hugely important social concern; firearm accidents after all account for a whopping almost half a percent of accidental deaths in the us. That's about 1/75th as many deaths as caused by vehicle accidents. Most firearm accidents (and deaths as a whole) are still those involving children. The lock requirement, and the fact that it's a felony criminal offense to allow a minor access to a firearm should they harm themselves, others or damage property with it is quite possibly the more effective approach. So for that matter is paying enough attention to your teen to know whether they are suicidal (another large chunk of gun fatalities).
As for the criminal effects; well, California is still one of the usual handful of leading states in a few categories of handgun crime. In firearm involved robberies, we're higher than most states, per capita, but then we're lower than most eastern and midwestern states. the same is true for firearm involved homicides. in firearm assaults in general, we're about average, but better than any southern state.
Basically; I can't see that it helps by any great degree. Leave it to the California people to decide whether that's worth their while, and their having only about 100 pistols to chose from. I can live with it if it's preventing any deaths and injuries, but that's not the same as liking it. It's also not the same as wishing it on all my neighbors (sorry Thoreau).
I know what you mean. I knew a guy once, who was kind of COO COO Crazy, who had set his trigger pull to wher ea fly landing on it could set it off... Ya thats a bit to light for me :bored:
all i can add is either mossberg or 870 will do u anything you want, alot of 870 police trade ins around also that can be had at a decent price if you have them in your area. i love my mossbergs , from HD to the field , swapping barrels on either is a big plus if your only going to own one shotgun,
True it really just comes down to preference and what you like. Again the Chevy Ford, Red Blue, HP Dell...
It sounds like you have picked a good gun. My advice, for what little it's worth, is to shoot it....then shoot it some more....then go out and shoot it even more. If you are going to add a bunch of extra weight to the end of the thing, shoot it a bunch with the extra weight hung on it. The goal is to be so used to shooting that gun, that you can do anything with it, without really having to think about it.
The best tool in the world doesn't do you any good, unless you know how to use it.
(For the record....I'm just a dummy. Listen to what professionals say, if it's any different than what I say.)
Yep, I plan to put 500 rounds through it (not all at once) over hours. I also already have 250 rounds of high end HD buckshot. Even after my 500 rounds of 7bird Ill get 500 more to have for fun. Ammo is not an issue for me.
hunter63
08-09-2012, 12:59 PM
Why would you put 500 round thru it even in a couple of hours?
You can tell the pattern or effect with 3 to 5 rounds, so unless you are trying out different loads, and different manufactures, (the smart way to do it)....then you are just having fun and get a sore shoulder.....doesn't matter if it's free or not.
I agree with finding out what your weapon will do, and get comfortable with it, and the ammo, but I guess I am just to cheap to do that.....LOL
Kosuki
08-09-2012, 01:44 PM
Why would you put 500 round thru it even in a couple of hours?
You can tell the pattern or effect with 3 to 5 rounds, so unless you are trying out different loads, and different manufactures, (the smart way to do it)....then you are just having fun and get a sore shoulder.....doesn't matter if it's free or not.
I agree with finding out what your weapon will do, and get comfortable with it, and the ammo, but I guess I am just to cheap to do that.....LOL
Yep I am trying out diff loads. I am sticking with a select few manufacturers. I am trying different birds and bucks and some other rounds, including LLR's (Less Lethal Rounds).
Seniorman
08-09-2012, 01:55 PM
Each to his own, but if it were me I would try out the folding stock/pistol grip before shelling out the cash.
I prefer the standard stock/forearm with out all the stuff hanging on it, but that's just me.....maybe not cool to some, but my preference.
Same here. My Remington 870 Wingmaster, with the Remington 20" Deerslayer barrel with Rem. Express sights, works just fine for me. Shot or slugs, it'll do the job if I do mine.
S.M.
Wildthang
08-09-2012, 06:16 PM
Nice gun man, at least now you have protection against those annoying beach zombies:smartass: I have a Remington 1100 that is sawed off a little and no tube plug. It is all I need for sweeping. I also have 2 new barrels to put on for hunting.
Batch
08-18-2012, 11:50 AM
That's only a problem when the stock is up, and when it's up it's next to my bed with the safety off and one in the tube so all I have to do is pick it up chamber one and fire. If the stock is down for bird hunting, it's not a problem.
I don't use safety's on defensive weapons. What ever I carry depends on me and a good holster to stay safe. No manual safety and always ready to fire by pressing the trigger.
That being said I have my handgun beside my bed in a gun vault safe. So I am not much faster then racking a round in the chamber. But, once I do get my hands on the gun it will be aim and fire. While I have heard of many people in a gun fight or Oh Shift moment pull the trigger several times before they remember to chamber a round or take off the safety.
2dumb2kwit
08-18-2012, 12:14 PM
Why would you put 500 round thru it even in a couple of hours?
You can tell the pattern or effect with 3 to 5 rounds, so unless you are trying out different loads, and different manufactures, (the smart way to do it)....then you are just having fun and get a sore shoulder.....doesn't matter if it's free or not.
I agree with finding out what your weapon will do, and get comfortable with it, and the ammo, but I guess I am just to cheap to do that.....LOL
I have to be honest.....my advice of shoot, shoot , and then shoot some more was mainly due to my poorly functioning brain. I completely blocked out the part of the O.P. about shooting all the different shotguns, and I was thinking first gun = no shooting experience.
My bad.
(Although practice never hurts. Well...other than your wallet and shoulder.) LOL
kyratshooter
08-18-2012, 02:39 PM
I have gotten lost in the logic of thist particular thread.
It is a "first gun" bought by an "experienced shooter"?
and in the normal vein of forum activity he wants "advice" on what he has already decided?
And I really hate to say this, but Batch, I ain't going hunting with you! Not only that but I an hopeful I never have to do any defense or tatical work anywhere near you!
Learn to appriciate and use your safety devices.
wtrfwlr
08-18-2012, 03:16 PM
I don't use safety's on defensive weapons. What ever I carry depends on me and a good holster to stay safe. No manual safety and always ready to fire by pressing the trigger.
Oh my, a chambered round with the safety in the off position with no intended target? The makings of yet another tragic headline of an accidental shooting. This goes against the most basic rules of gun safety. Please reconsider your use and practice of handling a weapon with a loaded chamber and the safety in the off position. Please?
Batch
08-18-2012, 07:07 PM
Oh my, a chambered round with the safety in the off position with no intended target? The makings of yet another tragic headline of an accidental shooting. This goes against the most basic rules of gun safety. Please reconsider your use and practice of handling a weapon with a loaded chamber and the safety in the off position. Please?
Well a lot of handguns don't come with a manual safety. The Sig Sauer 226 I have on my hip right now, my Glock, the PF9 I slide in my pocket (in a pocket holster) if I am going to be doing something that might cause me to inadvertently flash a lot, the S&W .44 Mag I carry as a side arm during hunting, the .357 mag. All have built in mechanical safety of some sort and most have several. But, all will go bang if you pull the trigger WITHOUT requiring me to manually manipulate a separate safety. None of the holsters I use expose the trigger.
My belief is that you treat every gun as if it is loaded at all times. So you handle a gun as if it is ready to fire at all times. I have been muzzle swept by more idiots than I care to remember and almost always they declare that the safety is on! Nope safety is between your ears.
Not that it means anything. But, I am also a NRA certified Range Office and you treat any gun any other way than it is loaded and may go off at any moment on the line your gone. To many times people will rely on manual safety and not safe handling practices.
Also, I would guess that you are unfamiliar with a lot of today's modern firearms. I grew up on 1911's and I practiced my draw stroke with guns that have a similar manual safety. Snick it down with your thumb as you draw to the two. But, if I grabbed a number of other weapons such as some Brownings or S&W pushing the safety down makes the gun safe.
Many agency that require a sidearm be carried daily feel the same way as they carry SIG and Glocks.
2dumb2kwit
08-18-2012, 08:31 PM
Many agency that require a sidearm be carried daily feel the same way as they carry SIG and Glocks.
I want to stay out of this, but I just have to make one comment, after reading that last statement.
I would say that 90%+ of all accidental discharge stories I have read or heard about, over the last few years, have involved a cop and a Glock. Just something to think about.
wtrfwlr
08-18-2012, 09:14 PM
Also, I would guess that you are unfamiliar with a lot of today's modern firearms.
With all due respect Kind Sir, your guess as to my familiarity with modern firearms would be incorrect. I stand by my statements regarding safeties and their use.
Batch
08-18-2012, 10:07 PM
An accidental discharge is extremely rare with any handgun and involves a discharge based on a mechanical defect occurs resulting in a round being discharged. A negligent discharge is where someone fires a round accidentally because they did not follow safe firearm handling. Negligent discharges will always be human error and will happen to almost everyone who owns a gun. If you practise all gun safety measures. Your ND will be down range or in a safe direction where nothing you did not intend to destroy anyways will be hurt.
http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006/04/glocks-and-safety.html
Putting your finger on the trigger and pulling it is about the only way you'll get a Glock to go off. Do that without clearing it and while pointing it in an unsafe direction is the problem.
I also got a bit wordy in my response as I tend to do. I am no expert and was just expressing my own opinion. I also took no offense to wtrfwlr post.
2dumb2kwit
08-18-2012, 10:22 PM
An accidental discharge is extremely rare with any handgun and involves a discharge based on a mechanical defect occurs resulting in a round being discharged. A negligent discharge is where someone fires a round accidentally because they did not follow safe firearm handling. Negligent discharges will always be human error and will happen to almost everyone who owns a gun. If you practise all gun safety measures. Your ND will be down range or in a safe direction where nothing you did not intend to destroy anyways will be hurt.
http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006/04/glocks-and-safety.html
Putting your finger on the trigger and pulling it is about the only way you'll get a Glock to go off. Do that without clearing it and while pointing it in an unsafe direction is the problem.
I also got a bit wordy in my response as I tend to do. I am no expert and was just expressing my own opinion. I also took no offense to wtrfwlr post.
I hope you didn't take any offense to my post either. I don't doubt that you are extremely safe with your firearms. My point was that many people are not as safe as they should be, and that means that in many cases a redundant safety would be a good idea. (But shouldn't be law.)
I must say, that I am a firm believer in that the person with the firearm is responsible for its safe operation. Period. Same thing goes for cars and trucks. I get ticked off at nit-pick laws about so called safe operation. If some one drives recklessly, bust 'em! I don't care if it was because they were on the phone, putting on make-up, changing the radio station, or just dirt stupid. It's up to the driver to maintain control. If they don't....bust 'em!
Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now.:blush:
Batch
08-18-2012, 10:29 PM
With all due respect Kind Sir, your guess as to my familiarity with modern firearms would be incorrect. I stand by my statements regarding safeties and their use.
Maybe you could then correct my improper handling of the firearms I specifically mention my using? I look forward to being enlightened in my misuse of those firearms. To save you time let me relist them here so that you can address each individually.
SIG Sauer P226
Glock
S&W 29-2
S&W 627
Keltec PF9
Please include how a negligent discharge can be avoided with a manual safety. I believe that if the person believes the firearm to be safe and empty they will experience the same results. But, a manual safety has proven to show me that people can disregard fundamental safety with a firearm. Lulled to do so with an improper feeling of safety by a mechanical safety.
Also, look at the gun safety rules.
NRA
Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use
Better said by Jeff Cooper
All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Remington Hunter Safety
Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
Firearms should be unloaded when not actually in use.
Don't rely on your gun's safety.
Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.
Use proper ammunition.
If your gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled, handle with care.
Always wear eye and ear protection when shooting.
Be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before shooting.
Don't alter or modify your gun and have it serviced regularly.
Learn the mechanical and handling characteristics of the firearm you are using.
You can point out the one that says have a good manual safety and rely on that.
Batch
08-18-2012, 10:33 PM
2dumb no offence from anyone. I was trying to make sure that I was clear I wasn't attacking anyone's opinion. Just having a discussion. Type-speak can get badly misinterpreted. Something that is much less likely having the same discussion around a fire. LOL
crashdive123
08-18-2012, 11:48 PM
Oh come on guys. Let's not turn this into a shooting match over guns. Wait - that didn't come out right. You know what I mean --- agree to disagree.
wtrfwlr
08-18-2012, 11:58 PM
Oh come on guys. Let's not turn this into a shooting match over guns. Wait - that didn't come out right. You know what I mean --- agree to disagree.
There is no animosity here at all. There is the right way and the wrong way and obviously my way is right! Just like always......No, not really, I'm kiddin.
It's all cool, I was brought up a bit different than Batch so's ya'll really can't blame me. Blame my Daddy and all the drilling he did into my simple little brain.
kyratshooter
08-19-2012, 07:47 AM
Yes, this thread switched from addressing shotguns, specifically the safety position on the Mossburg when adding goodies, to the use of handguns in the defensive role.
This changes the entire complexion of even the presence of safeties and their use in the defensive role.
Next thing you know we will be addressing the "conditions of carry" for the 1911, gripping over lack of safeties on revolvers, complaints because people want a safety on a Glock, advantages of DAO over SA/DA and insistance on the loading of only 5 shots in the SSA.
LowKey
08-19-2012, 08:09 PM
Judging from the comments of a Police Lt. in a recent class I took, the "Accidental Discharges" on Glocks are usually from not clearing the weapon before pulling the trigger as a required step in field stripping the gun. Negligent Discharge is a better term.
As for the shotgun. I have no use for TactiCool. And since MA isn't too far behind CA in their firearms laws, having TactiCool for home defense? Not on a bet. The prosecution would try to charge you with the equivalent of dragging a felon in off the street and into your house at gunpoint just so you could have an excuse to use it. And if the State doesn't get you, the Civil Suit will. No Thanks.
Batch
08-19-2012, 09:24 PM
And I really hate to say this, but Batch, I ain't going hunting with you! Not only that but I an hopeful I never have to do any defense or tatical work anywhere near you!
Learn to appriciate and use your safety devices.
I missed this.
I don't consider myself to be in a defensive position when I am hunting. I use the safety on all of my long guns. I check the safety position constantly as well. We unload our hunting guns when we get back to the truck. I use the safety, but never rely on it. I keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times.
I have seen people point guns that they said were safe after having watched that person not even remember how to correctly manipulate the safety into the on position.
I follow the rules of the shooting events I do attend. So, if we ever attended a class together you can bet the farm I am more focused on safety then a score or looking cool. And that focus on safety won't stop when my firearms safety is engaged.
But, my first post in this thread was to let the OP know how hard it would be to reliably manipulate the safety with his configuration. All of the firearms I carry come from the factory to be carried the way I carry them. So how the hell am I doing something dangerous? LOL
hunter63
08-19-2012, 09:56 PM
If you don't have a shell in the chamber, it makes it safer,..... and according to everything I read on the interweb....scares the bejesus out any and all bad guy....just jacking the round in the chamber.......of course you are falling to the ground when this is happening as the bad guy came in WITH his gun loaded, and has just shot you.
crashdive123
08-20-2012, 05:51 AM
Are you trying to tell me that not everything on the internet is true? I'm shocked - shocked - I tell ya.
Wildthang
08-20-2012, 05:51 AM
If you don't have a shell in the chamber, it makes it safer,..... and according to everything I read on the interweb....scares the bejesus out any and all bad guy....just jacking the round in the chamber.......of course you are falling to the ground when this is happening as the bad guy came in WITH his gun loaded, and has just shot you.
That's how I see it as well. I keep my bedroom gun loaded with 1 in the chamber. Most of the time, when somebody breaks into your home, they are in your bedroom before you know they are there, and if you even have time to grab your gun, you are lucky!
2dumb2kwit
08-20-2012, 09:21 AM
If you don't have a shell in the chamber, it makes it safer,..... and according to everything I read on the interweb....scares the bejesus out any and all bad guy....just jacking the round in the chamber.......of course you are falling to the ground when this is happening as the bad guy came in WITH his gun loaded, and has just shot you.
See.....that's why everybody needs a good dog. They will let you know if a bad guy is coming!
kyratshooter
08-20-2012, 10:33 AM
I don't use safety's on defensive weapons. What ever I carry depends on me and a good holster to stay safe. No manual safety and always ready to fire by pressing the trigger.
I was simply working with and replying too the infirmation given in the post. That is all any of us have to work with here. If I misinterpreted that very direct statement please forgive me.
Now, I suppose a bad guy could get into your bedroom before you knew he was in the house; if you left the doors unlocked or the windows open so he could walk right in, gave him a clear uncluttered path through the house and invited him in to survey the territory in advance, and possibly turned on a night light for him, then took some serious meds to keep yourself in a coma or drank yourself into a stupor.
Average people wake up when their door is smashed open or things crash to the floor when folk stumble into them in the dark, because they have never been in your house before.
I do not sleep with a gun next too me, I have to make a conscious movement to get it. I want to be awake enough to realize what I am doing and not working on instinct, which I tend to do in such situations.
Most intrusions are daytime arrairs during work hours when the residence is empty anyway. Burgelries at night while the residence is occupied are extremely rare. It makes for good TV though! Very exciting to camra-track movement through the house in simidarkness.
The "home invasion" trend in the big city just north of me has turned toward knocking on the door and waiting for an answer, then kicking the door in, shooting anyone that moves and doing the bum's rush while shock and awe are in effect. Lately they have been shooting through the door when movement is detected, then kicking in the door!
To me that calls for strong locks, strong doorjambs, a weapon in hand every time the doorbell rings and never standing in front of the door. Might even rig up a camera for the porch. They are no longer the expensive toys of the rich.
http://www.harborfreight.com/general-merch/security/black-and-white-security-system-with-two-cameras-monitor-66556.html
hunter63
08-20-2012, 11:06 AM
Well at my house, they will trip over the black dogs sleeping in halls and door ways (why do they do that?)....and with all the cussing (bad guy) yipping and barking ( dogs....or maybe the bad guy). I figure I have time to go to the safe, dial the combination ...in the dark. 3 or four times..(.never seems to just open on the first try)...then choose the "best tool for the job",...(maybe the .22 lr, as it will kill anything on the planet, it's all about shot placement).... then of course have to unlock the lock....(where are the keys?)....then find the ammo...'cause everyone knows, never stores you ammo and guns together......Oh yeah put your pants on, looks better in the TV interviews, while the talking heads are trying to get you to admit how BAD guns are.....But don't wear a shirt....all gun toting people need to be shirtless...(I watch cops...sometimes).....So now you are ready to go.....
The bad guy is in the kitchen, drinking the pot of fresh coffee he just made while waiting on you....filling out his lawsuit papers to sue you for his sprained wrist from falling over the dogs...............and violating his rights to have a nice and clean burglary........
kyratshooter
08-20-2012, 12:46 PM
And Hunter, if you are much like me, the last words of the talking head interview woudl be;
"I don't know what he thought I had that was worth stealing?"
hunter63
08-20-2012, 01:26 PM
LOL, the above scenario was purely fictional, contrived to address the idea that if you abid by the rules, you are best off locking the bed room door and hiding.
I'm still trying to figure out if a single .45 dia hole in the living room wall, or maybe a few, beats replacing the drywall after the buck shot....aimed high as as to not hit the dogs.....
wtrfwlr
08-20-2012, 01:32 PM
LOL, the above scenario was purely fictional, contrived to address the idea that if you abid by the rules, you are best off locking the bed room door and hiding.
I'm still trying to figure out if a single .45 dia hole in the living room wall, or maybe a few, beats replacing the drywall after the buck shot....aimed high as as to not hit the dogs.....
Blow down the whole wall if you gotta Hunter, I'm great with drywall repair and finish!
Daniel Nighteyes
08-23-2012, 01:54 PM
Sorry to have joined this discussion so late. Mea culpa. Now, speaking as a long-term California resident (since BEFORE the Stockton tragedy), in my personal experience the state laws are not quite as restrictive as they've been described.
You see, before that horrible and often-lamented canoeing accident, I legally owned every firearm I wanted to own. My keys to this were (1) PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE, (2) focusing on the WHAT rather than the HOW - what legal firearms would accomplish the mission rather focusing on ONE firearm that could accomplish it, (3) knowing the laws as written and enforced rather than as lamented by the Chicken-Little Brigade, and (4) partnering with an FFL who is also quite knowledgeable about the realities rather than the doom-saying lamentations of the Chicken-Little Brigade.
Just like baseball, basketball, football, soccer, or any other sport, ya gotta determine what's legal and what's not, and get creative on how to walk the line. For example, before that horrible and often-lamented canoeing accident, I had a California-legal AR-15 that I could operate nearly as efficiently as anyone who had one from a non-California state. And, to make it even better, had the S ever HTF, using only a couple of screw-drivers and a couple of replacement parts, I could have converted it to a fully-functional, non-California (though still semiautomatic) version in about 12 minutes. Too bad that it, and the replacement parts, were lost in the canoeing accident.
Here's an example of what I mean. Should you want a specific 9mm handgun, check to see whether it is on the California "approved" list. Should it not be, find one that has the same or similar features that is on the list. Failing that, and with the assistance of your knowledgeable California FFL, simply check to see if a used one is available from a current California resident. In my case I liked the CZ 75 BD. It was not on the list at the time. With the advice of my knowledgeable FFL I simply substituted a used SIG P226 -- owned by a California resident -- that was quite legal for me to own. I've never looked back.
IMHO, rather than getting our panties in a wad by focusing on what CAN'T be done -- as determined by the current language of law -- we should instead focus on what CAN be done -- again as determined by the current language of law. Then, simply, DO IT. This also applies to anyone who lives in another "restrictive" state.
As syndicated radio humorist Red Neckerson was so fond of saying, "That's MY opinion; oughta be YOURS!"
-- Nighteyes
crashdive123
08-23-2012, 04:55 PM
I just have trouble with any state having an "approved list".
canid
08-23-2012, 05:03 PM
As do I. Sadly, it was sorta' hinted at that they wouldn't be consulting me directly on matters of state legislation. Shame, really, as I have some really good ideas for a driver 'peer review' system involving roof-mounted paintball turrets and a grading scale based on vehicle body surface coverage.
kyratshooter
08-23-2012, 06:03 PM
Why should it take a comittee of three, including one lawyer to interpret the restrictions, to decide what gun one can or can not buy?
Too short front to back, it goes bang more than once with each trigger pull and "have you ever been to jail?" is about all I can deal with or should have to deal with.
Daniel Nighteyes
08-23-2012, 06:16 PM
I just have trouble with any state having an "approved list".
With all due respect, that particular train left the station back in 1934, when the National Firearms Act became the law of the land. The follow-on train left the station when the Gun Control Act of 1968 also became the law of the land. Them's the facts. Anything else is just haggling over the details.
We can wail, whine, starve ourselves, tear out our hair, wear sackcloth & ashes, and the like, but none of what we can do will change the reality of WHAT IS. Unless, of course, we're successful in changing out all of our politicians [and the chances of that are two -- SLIM and NONE...]
With respect to all and enmity to none,
-- Nighteyes
Notes to Canid and Kyratshooter:
The above, I'm afraid, applies to your posts as well. Nothing is so daunting as the simple facts.
-- NE
crashdive123
08-23-2012, 08:40 PM
The fact remains - I have trouble with a state having an approval list. You can call it what you want - I won't repeat your eloquent list - but that doesn't change things for me. To delve further into it would cross into the realm of politics and then I'd have to ban myself.
kyratshooter
08-23-2012, 10:20 PM
With all due respect, that particular train left the station back in 1934, when the National Firearms Act became the law of the land. The follow-on train left the station when the Gun Control Act of 1968 also became the law of the land. Them's the facts. Anything else is just haggling over the details.
We can wail, whine, starve ourselves, tear out our hair, wear sackcloth & ashes, and the like, but none of what we can do will change the reality of WHAT IS. Unless, of course, we're successful in changing out all of our politicians [and the chances of that are two -- SLIM and NONE...]
With respect to all and enmity to none,
-- Nighteyes
Notes to Canid and Kyratshooter:
The above, I'm afraid, applies to your posts as well. Nothing is so daunting as the simple facts.
-- NE
Not necessarily Daniel. That is simply a law and can be repealed at any point that congress decide to do so.
In addition there have been modifications to that law on numerous occasions. Johnson gave us the 1968 law, during the Regan admin we got a break on surplus importation, Clinton shut things down with the Brady Bill, the assualt rifle/large capacity mag ban went out of effect under Bush. Things change,, and can be changed. A law can be reversed with a simple vote.
And the states have more and less favorable laws on their own. I can own anything federal law allows (class 3 or NFA of any kind with or without pistol grips....), while Kalifornia and various other states do not allow that.
In many of the other states of the Union it is actually a simpler process to purchase now than it was in the 1970s. My CCW card in KY gets me instant purchase approval of guns you are not allowed access too in your state. Ammo is much simpler. I remember cleaning and storing my M60 and coming home from the Army and my Mom having to go buy me .22 shells for a squirrel hunt because I was not yet 21!
No, we are not all on the same train. If you stay somewhere long enough you might get used to the conditions, like a frog in the pot, but do not take it for granted everyone is in the pot with you.
Don't go riddin' on that long black train!
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yellowcab
12-19-2025, 06:09 AM
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yellowcab
12-19-2025, 06:10 AM
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yellowcab
03-18-2026, 09:11 AM
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yellowcab
03-18-2026, 09:12 AM
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yellowcab
05-28-2026, 03:21 PM
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yellowcab
05-28-2026, 03:22 PM
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