Practical Accuracy

[kyratshooter]

What is your limit on acceptable rifle accuracy?

We get very hung up on long range accuracy and high firepower and such but often the real practical limits of the gun/shooter combination are not condusive to threading needles with a string on a bullet.

I love to tote several rifles in the woods that I know are not MOA shooters or anywhere close to it. My problem is that I always see game at just outside the range of these less than perfect shooters and seem ot always wish I have brought the other rifle.

Even the military of various nations can not settle on this question. The U.S. says 3@100, the Soviet block says 6@100. My own personal limit is 8"@100 (keep them on the pie plate).

I just finished a project gun that is not shooting the "perfect group". It is sticking to about 4" and is at its full accuracy potential. I was really feeling like I had wasted a lot of effort untill I remembered that my 30-30 does no better and I still love to carry it. I am still inside the K-zone of a deer at 200 yards and I should not beat up myself or the rifle either one.

Do you carry what you love and adjust the range limit to suit the rifle?

[Rick]

100 yards is my limit on everything I own. I try for 6 @ 100. Everything I own is better than me by quite a bit. I have no idea what it will be now with the new shoulders. I'll find out next year I guess.

[Pretty Pants]

Well, for me anyway, the answer to the question would depend on the terrain you frequent. While I've only read about it, hunting opportunities back East are in generally brushy areas requiring shots of 100 yards or less?? Accuracy probably wouldn't be too important in those circumstances.

My adult :o) life, I've lived in Oregon and Montana. Shooting opportunities can sometimes be limited only by how far you can place an accurate shot. Considering that, I've never hunted with a rifle that wasn't capable of 1" or better. If you restrict longer shots to when you have a decent rest, and use a good cartridge in an accurate rifle, humane shots can be made fairly easily. As a gunwriter once said, "only accurate guns are interesting".

I now only hunt with pistols, but I still want them as accurate as possible. I use a 44 mag Ruger Redhawk with open sights, for up to 80 yards, and also carry a scoped Remington XP100 in a chambering equivalent to a 243 for longer shots. While everything has to be right before you squeeze the trigger, they do a great job on game. Of course, I'm not that concerned with getting something, so I won't take an iffy shot.

While self defense has different needs, accuracy is still a concern to me. I have no experience with self defense, and may end up crying and quivering like a little girl if confronted, I still think accurate weapons are the best choice. I think of accuracy as a crutch.

Thanks, Pretty Pants

[natertot]

Depends on it's purpose. My .22 is for small game, rabbit and squirrel mostly. It has a scope and I am pretty confident that given the chance, I could take a mouse at fifty yards. Four inch groups out to 75yds is fine for me. I don't really trust the .22 beyond that for humane reasons. The only other rifle that I shoot is my mosin. Always hitting in a 10"x10" square at 100 with open sights is fine for me.

[kyratshooter]

Well Pretty Pants what you are saying is eaxctly what the discussion is about. Your limits under your conditions with the equipment at hand. And you have gone a whole different way in your hunting experience, limiting yourself to weapons with short range, pistols.

But, you still want unlimited/strict accuracy capabilitites from your rifles?

My own experiences over the years at numerous ranges and in the field, is that most shooters are not capable of doing what they think they are capable of doing and should pose self limitations on their attempts. But they will not do so. If they can see it they are going to shoot at it.

Here in the east we have a problem with "far sighted hunters". The ones that think they are shooting at 300 yards when they are actually shooting at 75. My sightings of deer at ranges beyond 200 yards have been few and in almost all the circumstances I can remember the shot would have been illigal or futile, as in nearly dark or on protected WMA areas where the deer seem to know they have nothing to fear.

Everyone wants the elusive MOA capability. I have found that in most cases achieving MOA requires a stable shooting bench, ideal weather conditions, an absense of distractions and perfect lighting. In most cases it also requires a good deal of tinkering with the equipment and in 50 years of shooting I have encountered few rifles that would achieve it out of the box with factory ammo. But everyone thinks their rifle will do it.

Or their rifle is more accurate than they are. What does that mean, really?

Most of my receint hunting has been done in conditions where a red dot scope or illiminated recticles were needed. I was discussing long range shooting with another forum member via PM and he invited me to shoot with him at a 1,000 m range. It was going to be a 5 hour drive to reach a place where we had that range capability! The only place in my area where I would ever approach a 1,000, or even a 500 yard shot would be down the right of way along the interstate highway.

Why not 2 MOA? 2 inches @100 yards, 8"@400 yards and still in a deers' kill zone. At 400 yards very few 4x scopes have enough resolution to tell buck from doe. (in most cases what is estimated at 400 yards is actually more like 200-250) And as stated, here in the east few shots will be encounterd outside 100, well within the capabilities of a peep sighted off the shelf 30-30 rifle.

There is another thread where we are extrolling the good fortune of a member that has acquired a Ruger Scout Rifle. I am sure that rifle will be capable of excellent accuracy. But what accuracy level should be expected of it? The rifle is based on the concept of Jeff Cooper and his "General Purpose Rifle". The term "Scout Rifle" has been coined and tacked to it, but it was conceived as a general purpose long term survival rifle. A specifically unrefined tool with no expectations of speciaized application. While the length, weight and caliber requirements were very restrected, the sighting equipment was left as an open choice; peep sight, LER scope or standard scope of low power, whatever the user prefered.

Cooper stated that its accuracy requirement was to be as practical as the rest of the concept; 2MOA capabilities. Mr Cooper was an avid hunter and used an oversized model of the scout he named "Thumper" as a game getter while on safari on the African plains, where range is also unlimited in many cases. He was a western guy from the "Big Sky Country", but felt 2MOA was acceptable.

My rifles might be capable of MOA, but taking a shot using a pack and jacket as a rest, at estimated range, with fading sun and my heart beating like a freight train? It might be best if I got a little bit closer. I ain't that good. My 1 MOA rifle just became a 10 MOA rifle.

And Natertot, over the years I have come to expect better accuracy from my .22 rifles than from my centerfires. My targets are usually smaller and harder to track and see. They are also usually the food of despiration. I do not want to miss if I need something in the pot for supper.

I want no more than one inch groups at 50 yards from my hunting grade .22 rifles. But that is also inside the 2MOA restriction.

[Pretty Pants]

Hey kyratshooter, I totally agree with your last post. And arguing against anything Jeff Cooper said on guns and shooting would be foolish.

Since being a kid, I've always been intrigued with accuracy. Starting out with a 22 on jackrabbits and ground squirrels, moving up to a 222 with longer potential, then the 7mm mag when Remington first came out with it. Was always trying to compete with my childhood buddies.

Whether using pistols or rifles, we were always trying to beat each other. You know how it goes.:sneaky2:

And you're 100% corect on the practical/real world accuracy bit. While my guns shoot pretty well from the bench, they do seem to go to hell in the boonies. But I'm aware of that, and what I am capable of given the circumstances. I would think that should be a given whether talking pistols or rifles, plinking or hunting, or self defense. Like Clint said, "A man has got to know his limitations". While I do have tons of limitations, I still want to do the best I can.

But I still love accuracy, it allows me to shoot a bit better than I could with a sloppy shooting gun.

Thanks, Pretty Pants

[Rick]

Or their rifle is more accurate than they are. What does that mean, really?

For me it means the rifle has capabilities that are better than me. When you factor in all the human stuff I'm not the best shot in cavalry. That same rifle in someone else's hands is bound to be more accurate. Ergo, (I actually just wanted to use that word) my weapon is better than me.

I don't have a bazillion rounds that I've shot at 3000 yards on a ridge line at dusk in driving snow and still dropped a prized elk. I have fun at the range, I bring home a few squirrels or rabbits now and then and just like things that go boom. If ATF allowed I'd probably have an anti-tank gun or mountain howitzer and we'd be talking MOA at 2 miles. If I can hit the target six times consistently at the 100 yard range I'm pretty happy with the results. If I can do that in the trunk of a body target I'm even happier. I'm a simple guy.

[hunter63]

Some how or other I came across a Ruger m77 in 7 mag thru an add in the paper....for a good price, in about 1980....came with a scope, while not expensive, has held "0" for all these years.

Benched it, until I was getting 1" at 100 yds consistently....Different loads moved the group on target, but still maintained the "cover with a half dollar" group.
I know that the rifle can do it, the rest is up to me....even from a bench, good scope, there are the little thing like breathing, steadiness, lack of flinching and generally good shooting skills.

I practiced the 2 shot placement from all sorts of free hand positions.....and because I hadn't shot scopes before....idea was hit the paper plate, work the bolt and hit it again.

To this day, if I'm doing some serious hunting, this rifle "Elviria" is my first choice.

For a hunting rifle, consistant MOpaper plate will kill most animals......if the tool is tuned, it's up to the shooter.

For target rifles,or pistols that's a whole 'nuther animal.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Or their rifle is more accurate than they are. What does that mean, really?


For me it means the rifle has capabilities that are better than me.

Agreed, Rick. When I say it -- and I do say it, or something like it -- I am acknowledging that my personal factors (e.g. knowledge, skill, focus, concentration, motor control) contribute much more to any accuracy/consistency issues than does any characteristic of the rifle. For example, and as we all know, when shooting at longer ranges (even from a very stable rest), your own heartbeat can significantly increase the CEP.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Circular-error-probable/119885944723833?rf=132949876742748

[hunter63]

So how many times have you been at the range,..... seen and heard guys female doggin' about what a POS the rifle, or scope, or ammo or wind, or sun in their eyes etc, etc causes them to shoot all over the place......then their buddy shoot a decent group with the same rifle.

There is more operator error than mechanical error in most cases.

I don't worry about the range much, I use it to try my toys out, work on scopes, sights and ammo loads, anf fun.........But hunting is completely different, over the shoulder, running full tilt thru the alders, down hill....becomes a "see, raise rifle up, acquire target, safety off,...squeese....watch it fall over.....All one moment, you don't feel it, hear it....just do it.

[lucznik]

It all depends on the gun and it's intended purpose(s).

Where I live a 250-300 yard shot on big game is to be routinely expected. For me, my primary, bolt-action hunting rifles need to be capable of essentially 1.5 MOA. This figure is arbitrary to be sure, but it's what I expect. A gun that won't routinely hold 1 1/2 inch groups at a hundred yards just isn't worth keeping. Lever action, blackpowder, etc. rifles get a pass on this expectation.

I have only one rifle that is a legitimate sub-MOA rifle. It is a Winchester m70 (post-64) in .264 Win Mag. It is also my biggest, heaviest, and most cumbersome rifle to pack around and yet, I still carry it a lot because I know that missing with that gun is a truly rare phenomenon. If I had to limit myself to only one rifle, this would be it.

My hunting handguns are expected to maintain groups of no more than 2 1/2" at 25 yds with the chosen hunting ammo. Both my m686+ (.357 Mag) and my 22A (.22 LR) exceed this mark and it looks like my new SR22 is going to be able to do that also.

For self defense handguns the ubiquitous 4"@25 yds is unimpressive but, (marginally) acceptable.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

So how many times have you been at the range,..... seen and heard guys female doggin' about what a POS the rifle, or scope, or ammo or wind, or sun in their eyes etc, etc causes them to shoot all over the place......then their buddy shoot a decent group with the same rifle.

There is more operator error than mechanical error in most cases.

Egg-zackly!


But hunting is completely different, over the shoulder, running full tilt thru the alders, down hill....becomes a "see, raise rifle up, acquire target, safety off,...squeese....watch it fall over.....All one moment, you don't feel it, hear it....just do it.

Haven't hunted for several decades now. But when I did there was a momentary sensation, much like a very mild electric shock, when I intuitively knew I was on-target. And it was always right.

[kyratshooter]

In opposition to the "rifle is more accurate than I am" view, what about the times you have done your part and the shot goes wide? Way wide.

You analyze the situation and think through the shot and absolutely KNOW you should have hit the mark, and the gear let you down.

I will never forget the first time that happened to me. I suddenly realized that I could shoot better than the gun I was holding. No matter what I did there was the distinct possibility that I could miss because of the gun/ammo combination.

That might not matter if one has a selection of firearms to choose from, but for a poor boy that just traded everything he had for a bag of magic beans it is really a sinking feeling.

[hunter63]

It all depends on the gun and it's intended purpose(s).

Where I live a 250-300 yard shot on big game is to be routinely expected. For me, my primary, bolt-action hunting rifles need to be capable of essentially 1.5 MOA. This figure is arbitrary to be sure, but it's what I expect. A gun that won't routinely hold 1 1/2 inch groups at a hundred yards just isn't worth keeping. Lever action, blackpowder, etc. rifles get a pass on this expectation.

I have only one rifle that is a legitimate sub-MOA rifle. It is a Winchester m70 (post-64) in .264 Win Mag. It is also my biggest, heaviest, and most cumbersome rifle to pack around and yet, I still carry it a lot because I know that missing with that gun is a truly rare phenomenon. If I had to limit myself to only one rifle, this would be it.

My hunting handguns are expected to maintain groups of no more than 2 1/2" at 25 yds with the chosen hunting ammo. Both my m686+ (.357 Mag) and my 22A (.22 LR) exceed this mark and it looks like my new SR22 is going to be able to do that also.

For self defense handguns the ubiquitous 4"@25 yds is unimpressive but, (marginally) acceptable.

I have to agree with location of the hunt.
Elvira has taken antelope at a paced off 235 paces, rested on my jacket....and a couple of mulies at 250 and 210 paces (or there abouts) all were DRT shots...as well as an Elk at about 30 ft, was gonna get run over.
Long distances out west seem shorted than in the Midwest?...dunno why that is?

Many people I have talked to over the years have found that magic rifle, and tend to use it as the "go to".

I guess I just equate Practical Accuracy with a one shot one kill....unless i betting money on a shot at the range.

[lucznik]

...hunting is... over the shoulder, running full tilt thru the alders, down hill....becomes a "see, raise rifle up, acquire target, safety off,...squeese....watch it fall over.....All one moment, you don't feel it, hear it....just do it.

Someday I would like to try this kind of hunting. I've always been in positions where the shooting is very controlled, very deliberate, and rather long. I've never had to "hurry up and shoot," ever... well, except for small game and/or bird hunting but, that's kind of different.

[hunter63]

LOL, and I guess I was surprised at the bi-pods, shooting sticks, range finders and such the guys were using, when in the western states.

Wisconsin, Missouri, Louisiana all have pretty thick cover, short ranges, snap shots at a balls out target...shot placement my butte, ya gotta see it first.
So that kinda what I grew up with....
Out west was a treat........Two guys argueing about how many clicks and windage.

[kyratshooter]

Someday I would like to try this kind of hunting. I've always been in positions where the shooting is very controlled, very deliberate, and rather long. I've never had to "hurry up and shoot," ever... well, except for small game and/or bird hunting but, that's kind of different.

You'd starve around here!

It is not like the hunting shows on the outdoor channel by a long shot!

If you get a sitting shot it will be through ruff brush and you will be picking a spot to shoot through to hit the game. You probably will not see the whole animal at one time and will have to time your shot to hit the vitals as they pass by the "spot". If it is close the game will be moving. Hunting deer around here is sort of like shooting quail with a rifle.

[Simple Survivor]

Out in Utah, my neck of the woods...er...desert, the range is as far as you can see. I moved here from Virginia where 200 yards was like "whoa!" But out in Utah we routinely shoot out to 300-600 yards, no problem. Even my AK is capable of hitting a deer sized target at 300. (can't guarantee where on the target though.) And my PSL with a x4 can accurately hit out to 600. Past that and it becomes iffy for me. I do like to push the limits of what a rifle can do.

[Rick]

You analyze the situation and think through the shot and absolutely KNOW you should have hit the mark, and the gear let you down.

That's always going to happen. The wrong weapon/ammo can occur to anyone and almost any weapon. When I say the rifle is better my assumption is you are past that dilemma. When I miss the mark at the range my first thought is what did I do wrong. Not the wind or the ammo or the dog that barked 40 acres away.

[hunter63]

LOL, I can say that the last time I was trying out the gun show Handi Rifle in .44 mag, with open sights, was shooting it at 25 yards to see where on the paper I was hitting....It was bad ammo.

Was getting them in a 2 " group at that range, with my home ready rolls off hand....so switched to a box of reloads that a guy gave me a long time ago.......Herters brass, home rolled cast bullets wad cutters.
I couldn't believe that I couldn't hit the whole target twice in a row....now I know why he gave them away....Oh yeah the leaded up the barrel pretty good as well.

Still got 3/4 of a box, and even the brass seems over size, tried reloading 5 rounds a while back, and even with a full length sizer die, the bullet was loose......factory crimp die helped, but I won't use any more of these.

Have to say this was the first time in a real long time that I ran into crappy ammo....like real crappy ammo.

[stmtrn]

If the gun I was using was for defense or hunting, I know I would want the best accurate piece I could find. I work up many different combinations of reloads and factory to get the best. 3 in at a 100 is max. If I can't do any better than that the weaponnis off to a new home. I want to make sure to get the job done correctly.

[kyratshooter]

If the gun I was using was for defense or hunting, I know I would want the best accurate piece I could find. I work up many different combinations of reloads and factory to get the best. 3 in at a 100 is max. If I can't do any better than that the weaponnis off to a new home. I want to make sure to get the job done correctly.

If you are ever placed in a "shotgun only" hunting state what are your plans? 99% of the slug guns will not hold 3"@100. In fact, 99% of the over the counter rifles will not hold 3"@100yds shooting factory ammo.

The AK is widely accepted as one of the top two battle rifles of world history, yet it is not expected to do better than 3-6 inches at 100 meters.

Is this the reason the used gun racks are filled with perfectly good rifles that only need a little tuning to become fine shooters? Have they all been turned out into the cruel world because they would not shoot MOA with factory ammo? Sent to a new home.

[natertot]

If you are ever placed in a "shotgun only" hunting state what are your plans? 99% of the slug guns will not hold 3"@100. In fact, 99% of the over the counter rifles will not hold 3"@100yds shooting factory ammo.

The AK is widely accepted as one of the top two battle rifles of world history, yet it is not expected to do better than 3-6 inches at 100 meters.

Is this the reason the used gun racks are filled with perfectly good rifles that only need a little tuning to become fine shooters? Have they all been turned out into the cruel world because they would not shoot MOA with factory ammo? Sent to a new home.

I agree! Ohio is shotgun only and it sucks!!!!!! Using rifled slugs out of a smooth bore and a bead sight, I get 8"-10" groups at 75yds. Needless to say, if I see a deer outside of 60yds, I will be hesitant. I know I can get a rifled barrel, scope, and sabot slugs.......I just can't justify another $400 to hope for 5" groups at 75yds.

Perhaps I should come visit you for hunt so you can show me how it's done! Last year, I would have been vegetarian had it not been for small critters!

[lucznik]

If the gun I was using was for defense or hunting, I know I would want the best accurate piece I could find. I work up many different combinations of reloads and factory to get the best. 3 in at a 100 is max. If I can't do any better than that the weaponnis off to a new home. I want to make sure to get the job done correctly.

As mentioned, I do carry my most accurate rifle a lot but, it does get left home occasionally. This is most particularly true when backpack hunting in true wilderness areas. On these trips I usually end up carrying my Ruger m77 Compact Rifle in 7-08 Rem for no other reason than it is lighter and handier to carry over long distances. Capable of obtaining, at best, 1 1/4 inch groups with quality handloads and good form on my part, it is not nearly as accurate as my .264; but it's accurate "enough" and is much, much easier to pack around.

Accuracy is great and is very important, but at a certain point, other considerations come into play as well.

Oh and Kryat - I don't quite think I'd starve in your neck of the woods. I would have to make some adjustments in my accustomed shooting style and maybe, (just maybe) some equipment adjustments but, I'm pretty flexible.

[hunter63]

I agree! Ohio is shotgun only and it sucks!!!!!! Using rifled slugs out of a smooth bore and a bead sight, I get 8"-10" groups at 75yds. Needless to say, if I see a deer outside of 60yds, I will be hesitant. I know I can get a rifled barrel, scope, and sabot slugs.......I just can't justify another $400 to hope for 5" groups at 75yds.

Perhaps I should come visit you for hunt so you can show me how it's done! Last year, I would have been vegetarian had it not been for small critters!

Well, If you had a Handi Rifle....rifled shotgun barrels are like $75 bucks....

20 Ga 24” Fully-Rifled, Rifle Sights FB024 $75.00

12 Ga 24” Fully Rifled, Rifled Sights FB014 $75.00

Just saying......

P.S. "vegetarian"....Native American word for "Bad Hunter"

[Wildthang]

I hold different accuracy standards for each type of gun. I have a Savage 12F bull barrel rifle that I expect 1 MOA at 100 yards the minimum accuracy for that rifle. But my Remington 30/06 I am good with 2 MOA at 100 yards because that is the best that gun can do. I had a Mini 14 one time that wouldn't stay on a pie plate at 50 yards, so I sold it and wouldn't own another one.
My favorite rifle of all time is my Remington 40X .22 cal. That gun will shoot 1 ragged hole at 50 yards as long as I am shooting steady and the wind is laying low!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

In summary, I think we're saying that different rifles at different ranges with different cartridges yield different results. With all due respect, DUH...!

This is neither good nor bad -- its just reality. Again with all due respect, and in my not-so-humble opinion, them's the cards we wuz dealt. So, the challenge becomes how to best use the tools (aka rifles & cartridges) we have, in order to generate the results we wish.

For example, a certain rifle-cartridge combination I used to use was an absolute game-getter out to 400 yards or so. Any attempt to go beyond that, however, was a real crap-shoot (no pun intended).



-- [I]Nighteyes

[Old Professor]

As a general practice, I expect any rifle that I own and hunt with to shoot 1.5 MOA at 100 yards. At my age I hunt only from a stand and use a rest of some kind. I know that if I do my part, and don't try questionable shots, I would not have a problem taking a 350/400 yard shot WITH THE RIGHT RIFLE!!!! Right now, because of shoulder injuries, my rifle of choice is a Remington Model 7 in .260 Rem shooting 125 gr Nosler PT handloads. Now with this rifle I can shoot sub MOA groups but I limit my shots to 250 to 300 yds. I had a Browning BAR that I gave to my SIL that shoots my hand load into 5/8 inch groups at 100 yards. My SIL has made several one shot kills at long range. Last year he made a one shot/DRT deer kill at a lazer measured 344 yards. When I was still mobile enough to stalk deer, I prefered a fast shooting pump or lever and either a peep sight of low power scope and a 2 to 3 inch MOA was acceptable. When I hunted shotgun only counties, I had a rifled bbl slug gun that would shoot its prefered sabo slug into a 1 & 1/2 to 2 inch group at 100 yds. My longest deer kill with that gun was 94 yd DRT shot on a nice buck in southern Michigan. I expect the same accuracy from my muzzle loaders but limit range to 150 yds.

[RandyRhoads]

When you talk about such and such group at so and so meters, are you talking about in a vise with no wind, as in the ammount of play in the gun? Or are you talking about shooting like you would in a certain situation, like kneeling, prone, standing?


And hey, my Ruger was mentioned :)

The more I read here the more I realize I know nothing about shooting.

[natertot]

Well, If you had a Handi Rifle....rifled shotgun barrels are like $75 bucks....

20 Ga 24” Fully-Rifled, Rifle Sights FB024 $75.00

12 Ga 24” Fully Rifled, Rifled Sights FB014 $75.00

Just saying......

P.S. "vegetarian"....Native American word for "Bad Hunter"

Yeah, Yeah.....I hear ya. :rolleyes:

[natertot]

When you talk about such and such group at so and so meters, are you talking about in a vise with no wind, as in the ammount of play in the gun? Or are you talking about shooting like you would in a certain situation, like kneeling, prone, standing?

Mine is done from a shooting bench, using a rest for the barrel (usually my ammo box with gun case on top of it) and holding the firearm otherwise as normal. Also, I shot in yards....I don't know no meter stuff.

[hunter63]

When you talk about such and such group at so and so meters, are you talking about in a vise with no wind, as in the ammount of play in the gun? Or are you talking about shooting like you would in a certain situation, like kneeling, prone, standing?

Most accuracy is stated from a bench rest......shooting off hand is considered "practice" in my book....when I hear about 5 shot key hole groups off hand every time @ what ever yards or meters (use meters if trying to impress some body).....I just say "sure" and nod my head....while my mind screams BS.

[Batch]

I don't use a rifle much for hunting. We hunt archery and black powder. During general gun we try for quotas in good WMAs. The deer are tough to get by then from all the pressure. More and more they are limiting us to shotguns in the WMAs anyway.

As for yardage. My brothers yardage is what he would walk off and has nothing to do with your tape measure. He puts the target at "30 yards" and my pin is set to his "30 yards". I mark off my paces at my stand. But, I do most of my killing stalking "really walking around dumb game". My last kill I put at 70 yards and my brother Sean who was standing right next to me said 20 yards. LOL We finally went back and walked it off. He said it was a little more then he thought. It walked off just a little less then I thought. Next time I am going to use meters just to screw him up.


Anyone knows the goezintus of that there arithmaticin?

[Rick]

Use chains for distance. That will really turn his head.

"No way. That's a four chains if it's a link."

100 links to a chain and ten chains to a furlong.

[kyratshooter]

Most accuracy is stated from a bench rest......shooting off hand is considered "practice" in my book....when I hear about 5 shot key hole groups off hand every time @ what ever yards or meters (use meters if trying to impress some body).....I just say "sure" and nod my head....while my mind screams BS.

And since the advent of the internet we shake our heads quite a bit.

On the bench is where you find out what the gun will do. Everything else is where your find out how bad YOU are.

Odd thing though, you never hear that kind of bragging at the range.

[RandyRhoads]

Use chains for distance. That will really turn his head.


Hey...we use chains all the time....

[Phaedrus]

I guess "practical" will mean lots of things to lots of people. My .308 cal Browning A-Bolt Synthetic Stalker shoots 1 M.O.A. or better with almost every type of factory ammo it's been fed...a fact that's long astounded me. For most hunters that would be much better than good enough. Where I live shots at Pronghorn can routinely take place beyond 400 yards where the newer magnums seem to rule the day but I don't really hunt anymore.

For a home defense weapon I'd consider 3 M.O.A. to be plenty sufficient, maybe even overkill. For a non-hunting handgun the ability to keep 'em on a pop can at 50 feet is more than good enough for me.

[hunter63]

.......................For a home defense weapon I'd consider 3 M.O.A. to be plenty sufficient, maybe even overkill. For a non-hunting handgun the ability to keep 'em on a pop can at 50 feet is more than good enough for me.

It might be sufficient, and possibility even acceptable, gotta agree....but a any tool should be a good as it "can"be.......
Kinda getting into confidence factor.
Example, Home defence (plug in el-neato super duper magic imitation metal framed super shooter, here).

Take it to the range....you plug 12 out of 13 every time in your circle.(you pick the circle size, that's what started this).....but you got one fly-er?
Reload, start blasting away.....same thing, 12 "nice ones" one fly-er.......Why?????

This is the stuff that keep you up at night, as in your mind, when the Zombies show up....which shot is gonna be that fly-er?

Or hunting rifle, you got one shot....is it gonna be one of the MOA DRT shots....or the fly-er?

Lots of hanky ringing has happened because of this......

But I think I have finally figured it out.....Take the offending tool out of the box....shoot the fly-er, get that out of the way....then you can be confident that all the next 12 will be dead on!
Confidence in your tools

[kyratshooter]

Somehow it has been accepted that we will always be able to chose which weapon we use for each task.

At this moment as I look around, my .22 that is presently in use as a "racoon safari rifle" is the closest firearm at my disposal. If I have to grab something in the next 15 seconds with which to defend myself that will be the tool.

It is not my first choice. It would not be my second choice. It's accuracy potential, design or stated purpose would not even be a factor in the decision because I needed a gun and I needed it RIGHT NOW!

Self defense, defense of property or family or emergency food acqusition often do not allow you to carefully select the power and/or accuracy level of your hardware. You use what you can lay your hands on instantly.

I only own one single firearem that I can say "I do not care how it shoots" inside or out of my accruacy limits. It is a sentemental favorite and I never actually use it.

[Rick]

I agree with you KY. It's one of the reasons I often carry in the house. My wife thinks I'm nuts but I always ask what would you use if someone came through the door right now? You might find yourself in the garage when some goof ball decides to join you or out in the garden working. If you don't have a weapon where you are you should at least be giving thought to what you can turn into a weapon if you need to. If it's on the nightstand and you're in the garden it's not much good to you.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

In opposition to the "rifle is more accurate than I am" view, what about the times you have done your part and the shot goes wide? Way wide.

You analyze the situation and think through the shot and absolutely KNOW you should have hit the mark, and the gear let you down.

Been there, done that, got the ulcer to prove it (figuratively speaking of course). When such a thing happens, certain firearms notwithstanding, I generally look to ammunition issues first. Case in point: I have a great Pedersoli Remington Rolling Block in .45-70. I sighted it in carefully, made out a range card, the whole deal. Come the day of the Cowboy Long-Range match, all three of my warm-up/sighter shots were dead-center at 480 yards. Once I began shooting for the record, however, things went straight to H*LL in a handbasket. Needless to say, I didn't even place. Long story short, the ammo was the culprit.


I suddenly realized that I could shoot better than the gun I was holding. No matter what I did there was the distinct possibility that I could miss because of the gun/ammo combination.

And sometimes the rifle is the culprit. Consider, if you will, the Mini-14. The earliest versions (Series 180 and 181) were reasonably consistent, but nothing to write home about. The later the version, it seems, the worse the accuracy/consistency. The term "minute-of-barn-door accuracy" comes to mind...

-- Nighteyes

[hunter63]

Had one of the early ones 1976 model, shot good for the first 3 shots, then started walking off (0) high and to the right, did it every time...... but would hold about 1-1/2 @50yds.

One of the range rats say's,..... after watching it/me for a while....."Just sight it in when the barrel is warmed up"....That had to be one of the Dumbest statements I ever heard...still not sure to this day if he was serious or pulling my leg.....yeah like right, coyote hunting....hey coyote, you wanna hold still... till I fire about 3 "warm up shots?"

Got that rifle in a trade, ened up trading it back to the guy i had traded with for a SS .357 S&W 686 w/11' barrel and target sights...he was happy, and I was ecstatic......

[lucznik]

When you talk about such and such group at so and so meters, are you talking about in a vise with no wind, as in the ammount of play in the gun?

For me it's not a vise exactly, or even a Ransom-type rest, but it is a special, purpose made, padded rifle rest up front and another rest for the buttstock. These two tools allow me to really hold the gun rock solid. The goal is to eliminate as much of "me" from the equation as I can so that I can zero in on other variables to try to wring out the very best accuracy possible

[Phaedrus]

Somehow it has been accepted that we will always be able to chose which weapon we use for each task.

At this moment as I look around, my .22 that is presently in use as a "racoon safari rifle" is the closest firearm at my disposal. If I have to grab something in the next 15 seconds with which to defend myself that will be the tool.

I used to have a lot of guns. Now, as a full time student working full time to go get thru school, I only have a few. My most accurate weapon, the A-Bolt in .308, would never be used for defense except under really bizarre circumstances (since I live in the city). The two guns that are almost never more than 5 feet from me are my Kimber LME-II and my Browning Hi-Power. Both wear night sights and sit next to Sure Fire lights. As they're my only other guns, one of them would be pressed into service, at least until such time as I acquire a new E.B.R. or a new shottie.

[jake abraham]

most of my shots are under 75 yards

[Daniel Nighteyes]

For me it's not a vise exactly, or even a Ransom-type rest, but it is a special, purpose made, padded rifle rest up front and another rest for the buttstock. These two tools allow me to really hold the gun rock solid. The goal is to eliminate as much of "me" from the equation as I can so that I can zero in on other variables to try to wring out the very best accuracy possible

I use a Harris bipod and a rear bag for much the same reason. The bipod is obviously quite portable, and there are any number of reasonable substitutes for the rear bag.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Somehow it has been accepted that we will always be able to chose which weapon we use for each task.

At this moment as I look around, my .22 that is presently in use as a "racoon safari rifle" is the closest firearm at my disposal. If I have to grab something in the next 15 seconds with which to defend myself that will be the tool.

Well-said. In many situations, the "best" firearm is the one you can reach. I'm currently sitting at the breakfast table. Were I to need a firearm in the next 15 seconds, 12 of them would be occupied by running (well, more like "Walter Brennaning" really fast) up the stairs to our second-floor bedroom, thinking all the way. 2 more would be consumed by grabbing either my S&W Model 19 or my 12ga. Savage riot gun from their resting places. The one I'd grab was what I was thinking about on the way... :sweatdrop:

[bucky]

The ideal situation for me is when I know that the weapon I'm shooting can do anything that I can resonably expect it to do; that is, the firearm will shoot better than I can hold it and deliver the proper amount of energy to the target.

[hunter63]

It is reasonable to assume that most firearms are built with some sort of quailty control.........Humans, not so much.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

It is reasonable to assume that most firearms are built with some sort of quailty control.........Humans, not so much.

We humans are definitely the weak link in the chain.

[glockcop]

Bolt guns for hunting = under 2" @ 100 yrds. Rem 700's and Ruger M77 will best this easily even with ammo they don't like.
lever guns for hunting = under 3" @ 100 yrds. Marlins regularly best this with ammo they like.
4" barrel semi auto pistol for S/D = about 2 3/4" or better @ 25 yrds. Sigs, Glock, HK best this with ammo they like.
4" barrel revolver for S/D = about 2 1/4" or better @ 25 yrds. S&W and Ruger best this with ammo they like.

If my guns won't meet these standards, they have to find a different address. Honestly, with today's close tolerance manufacturing, it would be hard to find new guns that would't meet my accuracy standard.

[hepit]

Hell, my little M4 is 3" at 100 yds, wth the iron sights, from the sandbagged bench, with a RRA drop in trigger job. With the scope and match ammo, it's always under 2" and sometimes right at 1.5", for 5 shots. 8" at 100 yds aint all that good pistol shooting, actually, much less with a rifle. Not from the bench, at least. Standing offhand, with a rifle and iron sights, it's just fair, not good. 4" at 100 yds is ok standing, with iron sights, assuming that the gun and ammo can deliver 2" or so, from the bench.

[Rick]

If I did 8" at 100 yards with a hand gun I'd think I died and went to Heaven. I'm sure glad you joined up to keep us straight on this stuff. We've been missing someone with some good information on firearms. Most of us just know what we read on the net.

[2dumb2kwit]

Hell, my little M4 is 3" at 100 yds, wth the iron sights, from the sandbagged bench, with a RRA drop in trigger job. With the scope and match ammo, it's always under 2" and sometimes right at 1.5", for 5 shots. 8" at 100 yds aint all that good pistol shooting, actually, much less with a rifle. Not from the bench, at least. Standing offhand, with a rifle and iron sights, it's just fair, not good. 4" at 100 yds is ok standing, with iron sights, assuming that the gun and ammo can deliver 2" or so, from the bench.

Wow! What I got from this post, is that you spent a fortune on an AR that shoots about as good as an out of the box 336 Marlin, or a mini-14......but that's OK, because YOU can out shoot at least 99% of the population, with it!

[Echo2]

In my AO...it's not really hunting....it's called waiting. I would wager that there are about 4 deer in the back yard right now....lingering among the apple trees...:)

The first 5 deer I ever dropped....were with a old Brit 303 Enfield mk4. It had a refurbished Simmons 3-9x32. Best group was about 2.5 @100....average was 3.5. It was perfectly adequate deer rifle.

Next was a Rem 700 270.....flat shooter....under 1 MOA was easy....started using shooting sticks.....began with the head shots.....once again a very adequate deer rifle.

Still have all the .308s....They can out shoot me....all are within 1 MOA....still taking head shots....will drop just about anything in the state of VA.

I hunt from a seat on the edge of the field/range....or off the deck.....I generally will use a rest of some form or fashion.

Average shot is within 100 yards.

I did not hunt last year....due to the fact that I zeroed in a few rifles for folks.....and got meat in exchange.

I do plan on going this year....want to see what this will do in the field....

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4126/5218194123_efa93f509e_z.jpg

It will ride to my perch in a case on the back of the 4 wheeler.....damn thing weighs 13lbs....but from the bench did 3/4" @ 200...:)

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keepagoodoffing (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

прав (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/7964)124 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/692)Bett (http://eyesvision.ru/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1926-09)Tabl (http://eyesvisions.com)Loon (http://factoringfee.ru/t/183718)Forb (http://filmzones.ru/t/128017)Bass (http://gadwall.ru/t/128142)Ñ�Ñ�ыл (http://gaffertape.ru/t/247490)ПиÑ�а (http://gageboard.ru/t/238585)Ð*умÑ� (http://gagrule.ru/t/15543)Matt (http://gallduct.ru/t/161172)Дойн (http://galvanometric.ru/t/53771)Clas (http://gangforeman.ru/t/24075)AMBA (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/135839)9125 (http://garbagechute.ru/t/144384)
Scho (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/132985)Unit (http://gascautery.ru/t/17182)Supe (http://gashbucket.ru/t/69806)Full (http://gasreturn.ru/t/122812)Stef (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/126656)Мага (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/195980)Serv (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/195891)Папе (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/199674)(�лм (http://geartreating.ru/t/242650)Льво (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/196187)Iron (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/136884)XVII (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/249830)Laca (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/137040)Lond (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/129212)Caro (http://getthebounce.ru/t/22111)
�емч (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/195367)�ча� (http://habituate.ru/t/195680)парт (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/56653)Жидк (http://hackworker.ru/t/280707)Past (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/295752)Клей (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/196150)Dess (http://hailsquall.ru/t/16745)Ahav (http://hairysphere.ru/t/79931)Geor (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/229743)XVII (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/292981)Один (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/187343)анек (http://haltstate.ru/t/189460)Собо (http://handcoding.ru/t/49731)Mako (http://handportedhead.ru/t/193782)Sear (http://handradar.ru/t/94628)
Clea (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/17475)Brau (http://hangonpart.ru/t/10122)Line (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/63124)�рми (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/45244)Phil (http://hardasiron.ru/t/35906)Adva (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/107026)Nint (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/164327)Wind (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/24411)ме�� (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/94810)Stev (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/65652)Fumi (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/43117)Емце (http://headregulator.ru/t/24682)XVII (http://heartofgold.ru/t/111576)Шишк (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/65199)Digi (http://heatinggas.ru/t/128078)
Cath (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/254844)Марк (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/226647)го�у (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/179497)Куче (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/197041)движ (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/195299)чита (http://jobstress.ru/t/245469)заво (http://jogformation.ru/t/189211)Fran (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/17208)Марь (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/380780)Wind (http://journallubricator.ru/t/135571)Brat (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/140127)XIII (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/47395)Wind (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/26848)Wind (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/26408)Wind (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/25238)
Ange (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/197679)skir (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/25975)Clan (http://kentishglory.ru/t/163506)Carp (http://kerbweight.ru/t/122500)Монт (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/33009)Wind (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/26222)Near (http://keyserum.ru/t/130566)Drea (http://kickplate.ru/t/128922)diam (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/173544)Лавр (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/141575)Иллю (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/151410)и�пр (http://kinozones.ru/film/7964)Vict (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/196605)Gard (http://kneejoint.ru/t/143648)Poul (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/186860)
Unde (http://knockonatom.ru/t/128923)пере (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/196154)Mult (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/155129)Olim (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/144136)Micr (http://laborracket.ru/t/155566)оник (http://labourearnings.ru/t/19790)чи�т (http://labourleasing.ru/t/23275)авто (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/225726)абха (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/109813)Orat (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/146635)Кузн (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/93030)�рти (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/79354)Людм (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/67256)Jenn (http://laggingload.ru/t/65243)Masa (http://laissezaller.ru/t/69045)
Audi (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/54596)Andr (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/39122)Free (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/24302)удо� (http://lamphouse.ru/t/80826)канд (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/70123)Pedr (http://lancingdie.ru/t/59298)Warh (http://landingdoor.ru/t/25467)10-1 (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/142214)Jewe (http://landreform.ru/t/132809)Брум (http://landuseratio.ru/t/126555)цена (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/158611)указ (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1214897)туфл (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1537784)Indu (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1517)клей (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/592066)

[yellowcab]

Rake (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1194849)whit (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451753)О�иа (http://layabout.ru/shop/600649)Book (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1326945)Ки�т (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/449043)Book (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/794234)8801 (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1026126)Long (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/446306)Mich (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/789395)WWUn (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/609843)науч (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/443415)EA-2 (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/788644)Bobi (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/861185)Magi (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/613323)Увар (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1175545)
изго (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1175876)боль (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1248)FLAC (http://mp3lists.ru/item/7964)�кла (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151751)Тек� (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/912428)пазз (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462594)камн (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1065086)тема (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/642439)Maxi (http://navelseed.ru/shop/107163)пла� (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/459513)RedS (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/185832)mpeg (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/642475)Delu (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/652715)Disn (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/471587)Kenw (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/96143)
хлоп (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/458376)FIFI (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/469879)Choi (http://octupolephonon.ru)Кара (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/150393)Дани (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/233553)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/204860)Jung (http://onesticket.ru/shop/583412)Only (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/584815)Ð�Ñ€Ñ�е (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/688826)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/688346)Тамо (http://palmberry.ru/shop/743075)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/680929)ДетÑ� (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/1044719)Вилл (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1173659)Phil (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1174677)
Лебе (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1295611)Клык (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1177031)Крон (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1544536)Пухл (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1544689)Тютч (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/599035)Ferd (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/912875)Step (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1080948)Asia (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1404657)вече (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/1413370)по�л (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/514261)Шуба (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/747326)wwwt (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/914636)по�т (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1077654)Davi (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1400975)Birt (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1401691)
музы (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/516741)Thie (http://rearchain.ru/shop/879173)Artu (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/880038)акти (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1643963)марш (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1659101)И�ае (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1065457)Vick (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1688208)дей� (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1695584)(��т (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1773131)Hail (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1776586)Шепе (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1822153)Друж (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1823334)Тимо (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1855516)Хача (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1881307)Heav (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1917796)
Маль (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1929794)Тепл (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1941484)�ико (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1957805)авто (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1969060)Кузн (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1461463)кале (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1495163)SenS (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/1551755)Пуше (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/407039)Поно (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1672635)школ (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1694321)Indu (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1517)Indu (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1517)Indu (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1517)Abra (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/486543)Чижо (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/1758621)
Сере (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1769594)изда (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1775489)Free (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/491093)Хухл (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/503222)де�т (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1854809)МБул (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901500)Шойх (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1950063)мире (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/860679)Welc (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/917235)This (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/985075)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)авто (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/985608)допо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/487356)

[yellowcab]

http://geartreating.ruhttp://hadronicannihilation.ruhttp://getintoaflap.ruhttp://gashbucket.ruhttp://scarcecommodity.ruhttp://kerrrotation.ruhttp://hailsquall.ruhttp://heavydutymetalcutting.ruhttp://hazardousatmosphere.ruhttp://mammasdarling.ruhttp://heatageingresistance.ruhttp://laborracket.ruhttp://kaposidisease.ruhttp://landuseratio.ruhttp://offlinesystem.ru
http://lacingcourse.ruhttp://semiasphalticflux.ruhttp://packedspheres.ruhttp://neatplaster.ruhttp://gaussianfilter.ruhttp://secularclergy.ruhttp://hardasiron.ruhttp://kleinbottle.ruhttp://cottagenet.ruhttp://laminatedmaterial.ruhttp://selectivediffuser.ruhttp://papercoating.ruhttp://objectmodule.ruhttp://jobstress.ruhttp://getthebounce.ru
http://gardeningleave.ruhttp://olibanumresinoid.ruhttp://temperedmeasure.ruhttp://readingmagnifier.ruhttp://quasimoney.ruhttp://reachthroughregion.ruhttp://haphazardwinding.ruhttp://hangonpart.ruhttp://eyesvision.ruhttp://naturalfunctor.ruhttp://landmarksensor.ruhttp://knifesethouse.ruhttp://heartofgold.ruhttp://satellitehydrology.ruhttp://gasreturn.ru
http://radialchaser.ruhttp://quadrupleworm.ruhttp://lactogenicfactor.ruhttp://haltstate.ruhttp://rabbetledge.ruhttp://latrinesergeant.ruhttp://juicecatcher.ruhttp://lacrimalpoint.ruhttp://jogformation.ruhttp://magneticequator.ruhttp://haemagglutinin.ruhttp://sagprofile.ruhttp://hatchholddown.ruhttp://samplinginterval.ruhttp://galvanometric.ru
http://seawaterpump.ruhttp://laserpulse.ruhttp://spysale.ruhttp://rattlesnakemaster.ruhttp://labourleasing.ruhttp://safedrilling.ruhttp://screwingunit.ruhttp://gaffertape.ruhttp://oceanmining.ruhttp://nationalcensus.ruhttp://keyserum.ruhttp://laterevent.ruhttp://journallubricator.ruhttp://gageboard.ruhttp://haveafinetime.ru
http://tapecorrection.ruhttp://railwaybridge.ruhttp://secondaryblock.ruhttp://layabout.ruhttp://landreform.ruhttp://taskreasoning.ruhttp://nameresolution.ruhttp://radiationestimator.ruhttp://knowledgestate.ruhttp://justiciablehomicide.ruhttp://halforderfringe.ruhttp://tappingchuck.ruhttp://gangforeman.ruhttp://manualchoke.ruhttp://knockonatom.ru
http://gagrule.ruhttp://ladletreatediron.ruhttp://gatedsweep.ruhttp://geophysicalprobe.ruhttp://languagelaboratory.ruhttp://keymanassurance.ruhttp://qualitybooster.ruhttp://necroticcaries.ruhttp://rearchain.ruhttp://largeheart.ruhttp://handcoding.ruhttp://hardenedconcrete.ruhttp://gaugemodel.ruhttp://rapidgrowth.ruhttp://lammasshoot.ru
http://kentishglory.ruhttp://gallduct.ruhttp://medinfobooks.ruhttp://harmonicinteraction.ruhttp://majorconcern.ruhttp://handradar.ruhttp://hardalloyteeth.ruhttp://jibtypecrane.ruhttp://laggingload.ruhttp://offsetholder.ruhttp://kneejoint.ruhttp://scrapermat.ruhttp://habituate.ruhttp://jointsealingmaterial.ruhttp://octupolephonon.ru

[yellowcab]

http://negativefibration.ruhttp://keepsmthinhand.ruhttp://obstructivepatent.ruhttp://factoringfee.ruhttp://learningcurve.ruhttp://salestypelease.ruhttp://observationballoon.ruhttp://laissezaller.ruhttp://referenceantigen.ruhttp://telescopicdamper.ruhttp://labeledgraph.ruhttp://geriatricnurse.ruhttp://killthefattedcalf.ruhttp://rectifiersubstation.ruhttp://leadingfirm.ru
http://filmzones.ruhttp://naphtheneseries.ruhttp://gangwayplatform.ruhttp://temperateclimate.ruhttp://gascautery.ruhttp://randomcoloration.ruhttp://leadcoating.ruhttp://managerialstaff.ruhttp://lambdatransition.ruhttp://halfsiblings.ruhttp://navelseed.ruhttp://narrowmouthed.ruhttp://audiobookkeeper.ruhttp://machinesensible.ruhttp://neighbouringrights.ru
http://tenementbuilding.ruhttp://quodrecuperet.ruhttp://recordedassignment.ruhttp://leaveword.ruhttp://partialmajorant.ruhttp://reinvestmentplan.ruhttp://recessioncone.ruhttp://parasolmonoplane.ruhttp://laburnumtree.ruhttp://telangiectaticlipoma.ruhttp://redemptionvalue.ruhttp://paraconvexgroup.ruhttp://habeascorpus.ruhttp://heatinggas.ruhttp://magnetotelluricfield.ru
http://generalprovisions.ruhttp://parkingbrake.ruhttp://juxtapositiontwin.ruhttp://hartlaubgoose.ruhttp://gadwall.ruhttp://labourearnings.ruhttp://handportedhead.ruhttp://hackedbolt.ruhttp://lamphouse.ruhttp://stungun.ruhttp://quenchedspark.ruhttp://japanesecedar.ruhttp://hairysphere.ruhttp://laserlens.ruhttp://kilowattsecond.ru
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