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View Full Version : Challenging myself.... Purifying water WITHOUT gear, or in a 100% natural way?



jhnnymwr75
06-16-2012, 01:26 AM
I was just thinking about cavemen/Neanderthals and how they survived, for they seem to be the 'experts'. I see how they could have made fire and shelter, while also collecting and gathering foo or modern luxuries. But how did they purify water? Maybe they didn't, the probably didn't, maybe they just man'd up? I don't know. But the only way I could see it happening is collecting it into some kind of container other than a hand, such as a bowl like rock, but pouring it threw a cotton like material for a filter than boiling it over a fire, or just boiling it, but I HIGHLY doubt that was what they did. Does anyone know? Or possibly even better does anyone else have a theory or something that works. I guess what I'm asking is, if you got stuck in your birthday suit and nothing else, and you had all the supplies provided by mother nature without worrying about anything else just the water, what would you do to purify it?:lookatme:

*** I understand this would probably fit better in the primitive skills category, forgive me?

Rick
06-16-2012, 03:12 AM
They didn't have to. At least to our knowledge they didn't. The water was much purer than it is today. In fact, the water in the US didn't have Ghiardia or Cripto until Europeans brought livestock over. It spread from there. They probably went to the nearest water hole and got a drink.

Find a depression that holds water. That might be in rock or a downed tree. Add water. Build a fire and heat rocks. Add the hot rocks to the water. It will boil the water and kill any microbes.

If you expect to get back to civilization soon then drink away and worry about the consequences later. Dehydration is a bigger risk. By the way, if you are running around in your birthday suit the cops will be by to pick you up shortly. Someone is sure to report you.

Sparky93
06-16-2012, 03:12 AM
I doubt cavemen purified their water, not all to long ago in America people didn't worry about purifying their water. People would just go to the livestock water trough, slide the scum on top to the side and get a drink... maybe that's why the lifespan of people back then was so short...

What you could do is fashion some form of water container or use a bowl like depression the rock beside a stream and then heat up rocks in the fire and then place the hot rocks from the fire into the water causing it to come to a rolling boil. Just be careful, because some rocks can have water in them and will explode in the fire. Another way to make a bowl to boil water with this method is to burn one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p-ctAJNYO8

Just about everywhere you go there is trash like cans, bottles, etc...

Rick
06-16-2012, 03:18 AM
Great minds and all. We posted at the same time.

Daniel Nighteyes
06-16-2012, 05:29 PM
You don't have to go all the way back to Neanderthals for this, just to the 19th Century. One of the deadly diseases was cholera, which was commonly transmitted through cooking with or drinking contaminated water. "Modern sanitation" didn't begin until late in the 19th Century, and didn't become truly common until the early 20th Century.

Thaddius Bickerton
06-16-2012, 11:22 PM
Remember when the boys in that funny asian land we got the all expense paid trip to; would skip the big pill hoping to get sick and out of the bush or drink the water etc?

Seems the ones wanting it never got it so much. Then the dumb fools would try to shoot off a thumb or something.

All you had to do was just wait it out, either you got back home or you died, was real simple.

Celticwarrior
06-17-2012, 12:14 AM
Cavemen didn't purify water. In fact, no one purified water on purpose until the modern age because no one made a connection between dirty water and disease. It wasn't until a cholora epidemic happened in London and a physician made the connection between the victims of the outbreak and the wells they were getting their drinking water from that anyone actually scientifically figured out that bad water = illness. The truth is that people died from water-borne illness all the time and even today in undeveloped nations disease from unsafe water is still the leading killer among the natives, especially children. New pathogens are always creeping up in 3rd world nations' water supplies. The only reason that people survived into the modern age to figure out the water needs to be purified is that they ACCIDENTALLY had been 'purifying' it for years, by boiling it for tea and coffee, or by making alcoholic beverages like beer, wine, mead, and hard cider, which were safe to drink because the low amounts of alcohol in them had killed the pathogens in the water. While there is some truth to the idea that water is more polluted today, it is actually that we have no natural defenses against them because we drink pure water all the time. Don't believe it? Go down to Mexico and drink the local water. All the folks there drink it with no ill effects. You won't be that lucky. They have developed antibodies to fight the amoebic dysentary the water carries. You don't have them and will spend many long hours on the toilet pondering how you wound up in this mess and cursing those locals with their natural immunities. LOL. Similarly, our ancestors likely had natural immunities to many of the things like E.Coli, Giardia, Crypto, and other nasties. The more 'civilized' we became, the less we were exposed to them and the more we got sick from going out and drinking strange waters.

On a related topic, our ancestors lived exactly as long as we do. The actual human potential maximum age is and always has been the same as we have today. It is a statistical 'error' that causes us to say that we have a longer lifespan today than a couple thousand years ago. What the stats show is that we had a much higher infant mortality rate due to illness, injury and death at childbirth than we have today because of our higher degree of medical care from conception through birth. If you remove the deaths before age 5 and the much larger death tolls in wartime (again, due to lack of medical knowledge and care), you get an average that is only slightly lower than our own. On average, the greater numbers of accidental deaths due to hazardous jobs like farming/ranching, mining, sailing/fishing, etc. are offset today by much higher numbers of deaths due to cancers, heart disease, and modern illnesses linked to our exposure to chemicals. Ramses the Second lived to the ripe old age of 91 or 92, many of the figures in the Bible and Sumarian/Babylonian stories lived to be old men and women, and many Greeks and Romans were in their 70's and 80's when they died of natural causes (as opposed to being stabbed in dark alleyways, poisoned, or exterminated in warfare.) Washington, Adams, Franklin, and Jefferson were all old men when they died, even by our standards.

Rick
06-17-2012, 03:10 AM
First, let's make a distinction between water in an urban environment and water in the wilderness. The OP's question was Cave Man/Neanderthal. There were no cholera epidemics that befell them. There were probably cholera cases among coastal tribes because shellfish can harbor the bacteria but fecal contaminated water is the primary source of cholera and since both Home Sapiens and Neanderthal were hunter/gatherers they were constantly on the move. They no doubt had identified both sources of food and good water and those locations were passed down to each successive generation. There were probably cases of water borne disease but those were locations were probably known and avoided.

Celtic - While you can site examples of individuals with long lives the average life span of humans has dramatically increased with time mostly because of advances in medical care. Look at the average live span of folks in undeveloped countries today. They don't come anywhere near western ages. Humans live on average 31.88 years in Swaziland and 82.6 years in Japan. Are there folks in Swaziland that live into their 80s? Of course. Are there folks in Japan that die at 15? Sure.

You also have to figure in that once a specific population reaches a set age then life expectancy increases. Since childhood mortality and childhood disease plays such an important role in the life expectancy of people it impacts the overall numbers in a large way. If you survived to 15, for example, the, your life expectancy increased additional years. That's taken into affect in the numbers below. For example, your life expectancy in the first set of numbers was 43 but if you lived that long then your life expectancy increased to 64. The problem is most didn't make to 43 that's why it's the average.



1200-1300 A.D.: 43 years (to age 64)
1300-1400 A.D.: 34 years (to age 55) (due to the impact of the Black Death)
1400-1500 A.D.: 48 years (to age 69)
1500-1550 A.D.: 50 years (to age 71).


"During the early 1600s in England, life expectancy was only about 35 years, largely because two-thirds of all children died before the age of four. The average life expectancy in Colonial America was under 25 years in the Virginia colony, and in New England about 40% of children failed to reach adulthood. During the Industrial Revolution, the life expectancy of children increased dramatically. The percentage of children born in London who died before the age of five decreased from 74.5% in 1730-1749 to 31.8% in 1810-1829."

You can't simply remove the deaths of a given segment of the population then claim new numbers. It doesn't work that way. You have to accept the entire set of data.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy










(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy)

Celticwarrior
06-17-2012, 04:18 AM
Life expectancy charts are skewed due to infant mortality rates. Removing those up to age 5 swings the overall mortality numbers more in line with modern humans. When they say average life expectancy was 34, that is because families would lose 4 or 5 children under the age of 5 to disease or other factors for every one that made it to adulthood. Removing those children from the equation (because we don't have those kinds of deaths much anymore) skews the numbers back into a reasonable age for the average adult. Honest. It is a trick of statistics. If you lived to the age of 5, you had the same likelihood (barring accident, illness or war - just like today) of reaching a ripe old age as modern man. The myth that somehow we are magically living double or triple the lifespan of the average person is perpetuated all the time because it doesn't take into account that most of the deaths are during childbirth or early infancy due to diseases we have vaccines for today. In Swaziland, or any other place that might not have modern medicines, the infant mortality still skews their numbers, making it seem as though by the time you reach your thirties, you are an old man on your way out. That just isn't reality. By simply removing childhood deaths from the equations, you get a much more accurate view of how long adults could expect to live in their societies, and it really isn't that far off of what we live today. Statistics for life and death are manipulated all the time, based on risk factors, societal impacts, living conditions, race, creed, sex, etc. My point was that saying that our ancestors lived much shorter lives than ours on average isn't necessarily true. If you survived childhood, you had as good a chance as anyone today to live to be an old man or woman. It was getting past the hurdle of mumps, measles, pox, influenza, whooping cough, etc. etc. that killed off so many children and kept them from becoming adults. Because we no longer fear those things due to modern vaccines, we can't really compare life expectancies as apples to apples. We have artificially changed the playing field by introducing modern medicine. No longer is it a matter of being bigger, faster, smarter, stronger, or having a better immune system than the guy down the street. It is whether your country has modern medicine and are you able to get it for your children? That makes the numbers shift dramatically. If TEOTWAWKI happened today, and we lost our medical advantage, within a generation, we would have the same kind of mortality rates as our ancestors and the same deadly shift in infant deaths. We are no better or worse as a species than we were in caveman days, from a life expectancy standpoint. We are just better at controlling our environment to disallow infant deaths that would normally keep our L.E. score much much lower.

As for Homo Sapiens being mostly hunter-gatherers, that was true until the advent of agriculture about 13,000 years ago. Once we started raising our own livestock and crops, or even created artificial oases to come back to when things were in season as we moved from winter grounds to summer, the idea of us having pristine water pretty much went out the window, since it has always been the case that where you have large settlements, human and animal wastes were disposed of in the nearest water supply if possible. Otherwise they simply lay where they were dumped, usually within the settlement perimeter. Shallow dug wells and dipping from the rivers, lakes and streams for potable water meant that people were constantly being exposed to things like Cholera and Typhus. The Neanderthals likely remained mobile and elusive, choosing not to settle down like Homo Sapiens, but one has to wonder if our diseases bred from those early proto-cities might have contaminated the drinking supply so badly in his habitat range that Neanderthal Man died out at least partially from cross-species illnesses brought on by our waste water? Homo Sapiens has been around for a long time, and in that time, some aboriginal groups remained hunter-gatherers for a very long time, following the seasons and the herds or crops. Many created settlements that were larger than just a tribe or extended family, and built semi-permanent communities, mainly along rivers and waterways. Their droppings and other contaminations would have entered the water supply not only for themselves, but for anyone downstream. A Homo sapiens family downstream from such a village would be at risk when their drinking water comes from the same water source that the village uses as their toilet. Even today you see that in India along the Ganges. Thousands of people get sick there every year because the water they use for cooking, drinking, washing and so forth is the same stuff that people are dumping raw sewage, rotten garbage, and corpses into. Cavemen were still social creatures and formed tribes much like the aboriginal peoples we know from more recent history. They would have suffered the same kinds of problems with populations congregating on the riverbanks and polluting the drinking water with their wastes. In the mountains, when you get Giardia, it is likely from an animal's feces. When you have people, ANY people, upstream from you, the problem multiplies quickly. Now it is waste from MANY beings, dumped day in and day out into the water. It wasn't until very recently that here in America we stopped thinking that once you toss things into the water that the stuff magically vanishes and found that it is just going downstream to become someone else's problem. Early man didn't think that way. They took a dump right in the river, and it floated away downstream and to them, that was good enough. It didn't sit and stink up their living areas, it didn't contaminate their crops, and if fish and bears crap in the water, then that is probably how the Gods made it, so that your water was always clean and you didn't have piles of filth lining your streets. Like I said, it is only recently that we started believing differently.

randyt
06-17-2012, 08:57 AM
I've been researching the family tree of late. Not counting infant mortality into the mix, my family is not living as long as they use too.

Rick
06-17-2012, 09:04 AM
"That car is very expensive."
"Not really. You have to exclude all the dealers that price their cars less than us to make an honest comparison."
"Yeah, but I just saw one down the street a lot cheaper."
"It's a trick of statistics."

Infant mortality is the reason the AVERAGE life expectancy has shifted. How can you exclude a subset of the data? It's even accounted for in the numbers I offered above. Excluding infant mortality even shows an increase. Try this from Oregon University.

http://mappinghistory.uoregon.edu/english/US/US39-01.html

kyratshooter
06-17-2012, 10:00 AM
Oh good, our twice a year "How did the cave men purify water and life expectancy charts mean nothing?" thread!

Those infants you want to eliminate from the mortality chart are the ones that were dying from the water borne illnesses folks! If you eliminate all of the population that dies before 80 you could have numbers that were really up there!

If you research the American experience closely you will find that most of the numbers being shown are guesswork. The normal rate was that 50% of the infants died before reaching one year. Half of the rameinder died before age 10. If you survived past age ten you had a good chance of reaching adulthood. For those folks that did reach adulthood the average total life span was 50. That is still the average in most 3rd world nations!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Life expectancy for males does not top age 70 until you get to the top half of the chart. The male female discrepancy is often shocking! Most of eastern Europe has men dieing in their 50s and women shuffling along until 80, which really skews the numbers. Would you believe male life expectancy in Russia is only 56?

When you walk away from the ER and EMT services, well staffed hospitals and drugstores you instantly revert to what was available 100 years ago. Another aspect of "living in the wilderness" no one really wants to look at. And all the great big fully stocked first aid kits available do not change the numbers much.

My home town was named after the doctor that founded the settlement. He had 12 children. In one week of 1836, all 12 died of cholera, and the father was a doctor!

When Social Security was instituted in 1937 the average age of adult demise was 56. That was the reason they put retirement age at 65. Most people would never collect.

Rick
06-17-2012, 11:29 AM
In all of these threads have we established where zombies and vampires fall on the life expectancy tables? 'Cause they would mess things up bad.

http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/files/2008-june/_59205A7C_635C_4745_9404_A47DD901F327_.gif

jhnnymwr75
06-17-2012, 01:49 PM
Oh good, our twice a year "How did the cave men purify water and life expectancy charts mean nothing?" thread!

sorry if this was already asked, apparently I didn't use the search bar correctly. Sorry again.

Rick
06-17-2012, 01:54 PM
You're fine, John. He was just making a funny. Did you glean anything out of the water purifying question?

hunter63
06-17-2012, 03:18 PM
Beer was the answer to bad water........You had to heat it to make it....killing a lot of bad things growing in plain water.
Most of us wouldn't be here is it wasn't for beer........

kyratshooter
06-17-2012, 03:31 PM
As I have pointed out before;

Agriculture was invented to keep the beer supply stable.
Writing was invented so they would not forget the recipe.
Counting was invented to keep the bar tab straight.
Religion was invented to have someone to pray too and insure a good harvest.

Right there you have the basis of civilization and the first point where wilderness survival turned into agricultural survival. It most certainly was all about the beer.

Even the kids were given beer as soon as they were weaned.

We have mentioned cholera but not the thyphoid, diptheria, disentary that took the children and the never ending fight against milaria (took 1/2 of the new immigrants child and adult in the first year after arrival). All of them were primarily water borne. I had relitives that were dying of thyphoid and diptheria right here in the States as late as the 1940s.

If you ever want a depressing field trip find an old 18th-19th century cemetary and count the number of graves of children and adults under age 40. For every adult that lived to 70 there are more than a dozen that did not make it to 40.

Rick
06-17-2012, 03:33 PM
Most of us wouldn't be here is it wasn't for beer........

That's pretty much true for modern days, too, and has nothing to do with bad water.

Warheit
06-17-2012, 05:56 PM
I can't think of any evidence in Cro-Magnons or Neanderthals, that I can remember through reading or going to school and learning about. Great question. Honestly, I don't think any good inference could be made with any method of research done by an archaeologist or cultural anthropologist given the nature of the question at hand and factors that would make it a difficult task. However, I know that there are Sanskrit and Greek texts date back as 4000 BC that discuss methods to purify water (running through charcoal, boiling. The Ancient Egyptians also have a lot of that as well, they even came up with principles of coagulation. (Evidence through writings in tombs.) Stuff evolved, and had to over time. Public sanitation is really one of the driving factors in us living a lot longer than our predecessors. It is a relatively modern new phenomena and one that we take for granted every day.

JPGreco
06-17-2012, 07:24 PM
If you want to know what relatives of homo sapiens did for water you don't have to look very hard. A relatively accurate inference can be deduced from observing wild apes. The only question after that is at what point in our history did we start to require the need for purified water?

jhnnymwr75
06-17-2012, 08:43 PM
You're fine, John. He was just making a funny. Did you glean anything out of the water purifying question?

Actually yes, I have gotten much out of this thread. Thank you for asking.

Graf
06-18-2012, 04:30 AM
I would dig a hole next to the possible infected water source, let the hole fill with water from underground using the soil as a filter

Rick
06-18-2012, 05:39 AM
That won't purify your water. Since cysts can survive for long periods you have no assurance that the hole you dug doesn't contain giardia or other infectious organisms before the water even begins filtering in.

Daniel Nighteyes
06-21-2012, 03:27 PM
That won't purify your water. Since cysts can survive for long periods you have no assurance that the hole you dug doesn't contain giardia or other infectious organisms before the water even begins filtering in.

Agreed. About the only thing your approach will do is filter out the larger-than-dirt (or sand) particles. One still has a whole-heckuva-lot to do before said water is safe.

I have had Giardiaisis -- not because of anything I did or did not do, but because of something another person (in this case, a Boy Scout) failed to do. Trust me on this, Giardiaisis is something you do not wish to experience!!!

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yellowcab
12-18-2025, 08:16 AM
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yellowcab
12-18-2025, 08:17 AM
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yellowcab
03-17-2026, 07:22 AM
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yellowcab
03-17-2026, 07:23 AM
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05-27-2026, 05:11 PM
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05-27-2026, 05:12 PM
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