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your_comforting_company
11-13-2011, 07:57 AM
Met with the Chief on Friday evening.

What I do is something of a lost art, and even the actual Native American descendants have forgotten it.

I've been asked to teach several of their members how to tan hides the way it was done 500 years ago; the way I do it. For expedience sake, I do use metal tools, but I have bone tools ready to go also.

I was asked many wrong questions about how I do things. "do you frame them to scrape?" "No, I do it the way it was predominantly done right here where we are standing. I wet-scrape over a 'beam'." "How do you get it so soft?" "It's simply a result of the process of brains and smoke, but I prefer to hand-stretch over my lap". "Isn't buckskin supposed to be white?" "Well, right here where we are standing, it's too hot in summer to bother with more than a loincloth, and in winter we can all agree that darker colors are warmer from absorbing sunlight, so I have no real desire to produce anything less than functional."

Please don't get me wrong.. I'm not trying to talk down about these people, but I would think that any group of people that hold so tightly to their roots would have better preserved their ancient way of life.

Art knappers can produce very beautiful points, as thin as a vinyl LP and as sharp as a razor, BUT they are NOTHING like what I find in the fields around HERE that were made 1000 years ago. The found pieces are fat, and sturdy and very often reusable, or at least re-workable into smaller, sharper tools. Nowadays, knappers produce points and heads for no reason other than to sell. I really have to stress to these people that this monetary trade system is something "new" and that the time frame I am focused on did not use "currency" but rather traded arrowheads, meat, salt, skins, rocks, beads, shells, maize, seeds... need I go on?
Disease and a belief system shattered by the arrival of white man caused the collapse of these great civilizations.. not corrupt government officials, not economic collapse, not inflation...

I can teach these people how to do the things they want to learn to do. That's not a problem. The problem is going to come when I try to educate them on things they no longer hold in their belief system. I did ask (tho I probably shouldn't have) if they were converted. These people are now modernized Christians (not that it's a bad thing) who have diverged from their belief in "The Creator", Immissee, and no longer hold [much] regard for any of the ancient "Spirits" like those of the waters, the reptiles, the beasts of the air and fields and forests. They hunt and trap and fish, sure, but now they are "trophy hunters" who value the horns more than the meat, which truly angers me.

let me say that my grandmother's mother was full-blooded Cherokee named Viney Viola Glass who married an Irishman carpenter. Three generations removed, I'm about as much Native American as this keyboard that says "Made in China" and have never claimed to be anything more than that. I'm as white as snow where the sun-don't-shine. Yet I hold their ancient belief system close to my heart. I try not to offend any of the "spirits" as I do believe in "karma" or whatever you want to call it. I had an opportunity just yesterday to take a doe and her fawn, but would not because of what I believe in. Would it cause me to have a bad hunting year if I took them? probably not, but it would cause that ache in my heart that I do not want. (a little off topic but I'm getting there...)

This all came about by beekeeping. A few weeks ago I was helping another local apiarist treat for mites when one of his friends came over to watch and learn. Great! We all want healthy bees! This gentleman took me to his 50 acre farm where his hives were, and proposed an idea to me: To build an authentic Native American village, have it habitable, and several times a year hold celebrations there. They want lodges and teepees (that were not used by the people who lived here 500 years ago..). He put me in contact with Chief Lodge, who later told me that the man was the mayor of my town! (haha! can you believe I didn't know who my mayor is??)

So how do I tell these people exactly what I think? It's easy enough for me to meet up with the mayor (I have his number) and explain these things to him (who is as white as myself) and get him to understand the extent of what he's wanting to do, but how on earth am I going to tell these Cherokee people that they either have bad information, or have failed to preserve a way of life that dominated this continent for millennia?

Just a little news and some random thoughts from your friendly neighborhood cave-man.

Willie
11-13-2011, 09:29 AM
Good read and good point!

Willie

Rick
11-13-2011, 09:40 AM
Why do you want to tell them what you think? Take baby steps. Help them to understand the process then you can work on beliefs. You have a truly gifted knowledge of not only how to do things but why those things work the way they do. That's what you need to focus on. If I came in to show you how to be a better bee keeper you'd be excited. But if I began telling you why you should be a Socialist and why your bees should be socialist bees you'd be turned off pretty quickly. That's not what you showed up for. You're dealing with a belief structure that has been built over a couple of hundred years. You aren't going to change that overnight and you might drive them away in the process. Stay focused.

gryffynklm
11-13-2011, 10:04 AM
I'd give points to Rick but it won't let me. I totally agree.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
11-13-2011, 12:53 PM
It may help you to reflect on what it would have taken to preserve their way of life. On the internet I can readily find where my Grandfathers Father fled with his family into the woods in AL to avoid the census bureau. I also have a Father that it took me 20 yrs. to convince that he was not as white as he thought he was. He was convinced otherwise due to the rascist tensions in MS where he was raised. Perhaps the effort to just survive outweighed the need to pass on the culture.

hunter63
11-13-2011, 01:07 PM
Much is learned by just listening.
Good luck.

Rick
11-13-2011, 01:29 PM
Good stuff, Hunter. Aristotle once said that man has two ears and one tongue that he might listen twice as much as he speaks. Wise words often lost on me.

Winter
11-13-2011, 03:17 PM
Interesting read YCC.

My thought would be to not tell them, but show them.

Build an authentic camp with authentic tools.

"Here's where your wrong." is much harsher then " Here's how it was."

SARKY
11-13-2011, 06:23 PM
Just as the skills they lost were originally learned over thousands of years and refined over that period, you will have to take on that same journey. If you try and force it without explanation you will be met with resistance due to their preconceived ideas.

rebel
11-13-2011, 06:53 PM
On a different level...maybe the reason for not having a written document or documented pictures was...?

Was it Sitting Bull that changed his name to worm?

We can only strive to be better and that is not enough.

JPGreco
11-13-2011, 11:08 PM
I've been told that my great great grandmother was from the Blackfoot tribe, though thats about all I know. But I agree with you. I know that I wish I knew some of the things you know and more of what was lost, but i feel that way for my other line of ancestry too (traced back to Ikaria in greece so far to sometime in the late 1800's). It's sad to see people of those cultures lose what was so special about them.

I would look for someone who is genuinely interested in preserving this knowledge and take him or her under your wing. As for the others, teach what they will accept and as you do educate them. It won't be easy.

your_comforting_company
11-14-2011, 06:57 AM
All very good and very valid points. I will focus on demonstration and educating How and Why, and those that wish to learn more about the Old Ways will seek my knowledge, however limited, and perhaps do their own digging and research.

Thanks for the vote of confidence and direction. I will do my best, as always.

rwc1969
11-15-2011, 10:49 PM
I don't know what to say to this post YCC. I will refrain!

JPGreco
11-15-2011, 11:24 PM
Well, I can say this with full confidence; if I'm ever down your way, I will definitely stop by to see you in action. I'm very impressed with the things you know.

your_comforting_company
11-17-2011, 08:07 AM
After re-reading the OP I feel I should clarify that it's those things listed that I want to AVOID. I feel that it will come up in the conversations, some of the conflicting ideas between what knowledge has been retained, vs what's been lost. The OP kind-of sounds like I think I'm a know-it-all and that is not the case. It was a clumsy attempt at expressing my ignorance to the circumstances and a request of how better to word such things that need to be expressed to these folks.

Just like Rick said above, I wouldn't want anyone coming to my house telling me I should be a socialist because my ancestors were socialists... We are all victims of time and circumstance and please, PLEASE understand folks, that this is a request for a better approach, than my clumsy, redneck way of explaining things that will certainly be parts of the conversation. I'm not getting a big head, or becoming egomaniacal like "I know more than you".. NEVER!! I need to use kid-gloves for this, and don't want to bring any negativity to any of the conversations.
With better understanding of how this knowledge was lost, and why they have strayed so far from that path, I feel like I can tiptoe around the unexplainable and shameful parts, and simply exchange knowledge as any of us would at a rondy or other event. This is a great opportunity for me to help a group of people recapture some of their lost knowledge and perhaps gain some in return.

I'm still not sure I'm saying this the way I meant to, to start with.. Maybe you get the idea.
I'm not that finger-shaking, evangelical, know-it-all that the OP sounds like.
I am that humble student who wants to learn and share knowledge WITHOUT putting in my 2.

A couple guys have contacted me with some great information and resources to study, so that I might be a better teacher. You guys know who you are and I thank you very much.

Rick
11-17-2011, 08:51 AM
I didn't take it that way at all. I read it as though you had a deep concern for the spiritual side of the culture as well and wanted to help them understand it. I can't speak for others but my only concern was the spiritual side has to grow and can't be taught with the ease and acceptance of knapping or tanning. That's a bit like making fire with a firebow. It takes a small spark that must be gently coaxed and cultivated. You are one of the last folks I would ever imagine being or coming across as a know-it-all.

gryffynklm
11-17-2011, 09:14 AM
You will do fine. there are some good suggestions. Your last post #15 shows that you are approaching this great opportunity from the right attitude. You will learn as much if not more from them as you offer your knowledge to them.

hunter63
11-17-2011, 10:35 AM
I agree, if your thinking about it, just show you care.....and have the correct prospective.
Anyone that puts as much time and work in to stuff like you do, and respect for the spiritual side, will be fine.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
11-17-2011, 01:38 PM
Watched a special on the Cherokee of Cherokee NC and Snow Creek NC last night. It reminded me of this thread. One thing to also be aware of in your endeavor is that as the Cherokee that avoided the Trail of Tears did so by "heading for the hills" though eventually allowed to coexist they were forced to schools to learn the white way or "become civilized". In many cases it was not permissable to even teach there chidren their native language.

Rick
11-17-2011, 05:22 PM
YCC - While there are literally hundreds of tribes in the U.S. I think I'm correct in saying there are no federally recognized tribes in the lower Midwest and Central South states, Georgia included. There are certainly descendants of various tribes and even some lose confederations of certain tribes but none, that I am aware of, that are federally recognized. I only mention it because you may run into some point of contention with descendants that you work with. Understandably so, I would think. Tribes that would have been indigenous to Georgia such as the Cherokee, Creek, Apolachee, Gualel, Hitchitti and others as well as displaced tribes like the Shawnee and Yuchi are no longer recognized in Georgia or North through the Mississippi and Ohio valleys. All of them having been forced into Oklahoma and points west even though the Supreme Court ruled against the move. The Supreme Court granted them the "right to occupancy" in an 1823 ruling. President Jackson still moved them despite the ruling.

You might also be interested to know that the Cherokee of Georgia actually filed suite against the state of Georgia based on a Georgia law that forbade white settlers from living on Cherokee lands. The law was originally designed to remove missionaries that were aiding the Cherokee but the Cherokee successfully argued the law gave them the right to self government and they won!!! However, the state of Georgia refused to follow the Supreme Court ruling and President Jackson refused to enforce the law. And we think our government is corrupt today. The rest is pretty much history but the Cherokee were granted the right to self government in 1831.

We have many nations locally, none recognized but they exist none-the-less.

gryffynklm
11-17-2011, 09:42 PM
Check out the Our Spirits Don't Speak English:
Indian Boarding Schools
http://www.richheape.com/boarding-school.htm

Well done documentary's

CS Thanks for mentioning the Special on the Cherokee. We are researching My wife's Shawnee and Cherokee ancestry.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
11-17-2011, 11:39 PM
I am Creek Indian. I am on the the role at the Poarch Creek Indian Reservation in AL. Rick you are mistaken, My GGGGGF was Red Eagle - William Weatherford III, Google him, he also has a National Monument. Interesting enough Red Eagle actually lived on Andrew Jackson's estate and lived and died a free man. We are federally recognized. An interesting story...see the "Battle of Horseshoe Bend" or "Fort MImms Massacre" I was given a number from the Dept. of the Interior as a young'n. I also believe the Waccamaw tribe of SC is federally recognized. There were a few left behind....

Rick
11-18-2011, 08:06 AM
Cowboy - Neither the Creek nor the Waccamaw are federally recognized. Just because there are descendants or those descendants have established some confederation for themselves doesn't mean the federal government has ever officially recognized them as a nation. That's a huge difference for the tribe and what they can do under U.S. law. It's also a burr under the saddle for many and the reason I mentioned it for YCC's benefit.

We have a number of tribes locally as well. Many of them have pow wow's or meetings but they aren't nationally recognized either.

Rick
11-18-2011, 08:17 AM
Here's the list of federally recognized tribes. They are governed under the Bureau of Indian Affairs. That includes the rights to certain lands, subsistence fishing and hunting, recognition, etc. The BIA published criteria in the 70's that tribes had to meet in order to be federally recognized. There were six or seven if I remember correctly but I don't know what they are.

http://www.usa.gov/Government/Tribal_Sites/index.shtml

I've never gone through the whole list and as I said above I could be wrong but I don't think any tribe existing today in the Midwest or central Southern states are recognized. You'll find a few Eastern Seaboard tribes recognized like in Florida and you'll see something like the Cherokee in Oklahoma recognized but you won't see Shawnee in Illinois or Indiana or Ohio recognized or the Cherokee in Alabama recognized.

your_comforting_company
11-19-2011, 07:11 AM
Cowboy, I am familiar with the Poarch Creeks. They donated a LOT of money to schools in Alabama, including Dothan. I wish to speak with you about some of this stuff if that's doable.

Uncle (hunting buddy) called me last night, about 5 minutes after I got home. Their satellite box went on the fritz and they were watching PBS. They were running an all-day documentary series on this very subject, called "We Shall Remain: American Experience". While I only got to watch about 2 hours of it before I fell asleep, I got a lot of notes and will be purchasing the DVD set in the next few days. Really a great documentary which also included face painting, authentic (primitive) dress, AND tattoos!!

Some days the Universe smiles on me!

Thanks for all the links and references, guys. I already feel better about meeting with these folks if/when it happens, and feel better armed for any animosity that might arise from yet another white man interfering. To bring this history back to these people would be one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done. Thanks so much gang!!

your_comforting_company
11-19-2011, 07:18 AM
http://www.pbs.org/search/?q=We+shall+remain&mediatype=Video

http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=3511812&cp=&kw=we+shall+remain&origkw=We+Shall+Remain&sr=1

COWBOYSURVIVAL
11-19-2011, 07:41 AM
Here it is Rick.

http://www.poarchcreekindians.org/xhtml/index.htm

COWBOYSURVIVAL
11-20-2011, 05:44 AM
Pictured is my GGGGGrandfather recieving a pardon from Andrew Jackson.

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af330/COWBOYSURVIVAL/Horseshoe20Bend20Jackson_and_Weatherford.jpg

your_comforting_company
11-22-2011, 07:25 AM
A great justice would have been done if your GF had assassinated him then and there.

Rick
11-22-2011, 07:48 AM
Folks talk about how bad our government is today but Jackson's disregard of laws and Supreme Court rulings is well documented. I think he only followed the law when it served his purpose.

your_comforting_company
11-24-2011, 10:49 AM
absolutely. He was a vigilante with no regard for human life, however civil or uncivilized.

On a happier note, my DVD's arrived yesterday!! Time to get my learn on!

COWBOYSURVIVAL
11-24-2011, 11:05 AM
absolutely. He was a vigilante with no regard for human life, however civil or uncivilized.

On a happier note, my DVD's arrived yesterday!! Time to get my learn on!

A great day to remember how we got to where we are.

kyratshooter
11-24-2011, 11:30 AM
absolutely. He was a vigilante with no regard for human life, however civil or uncivilized.

I know that dissing Jackson is in vogue these days but remember that our nation was young then and the branches of government and roles of office were still undefined. Minds were also trained differently and our "War on terrorism" was being fought against Indian nations. Jackson's hatred was for the British, the Indians that served them were the friends of his enemies. If he lived today he would be praised as a general who took no crap off anyone and did not care what the current president establised as politically self serving rules of engagement that cost American service men their lives.

Yes, he was self serving, as were all leaders in that era. "Conflict of interest" had not been defined yet.

And remember, most of us live in parts of the U.S. that Jackson and the following presidents that he trained brought into the Union during the War of 1812, the Creek Wars and the Mexican War. If it were not for Jackson the Gulf coast might still be British and the southwest and California still Spanish. Even Texas owes its heritage to Jackson as the mentor of Sam Houston, the only man to be father of a nation, president of a nation, senator in two nations, governer of two states and still die in disgrace bacause he loved the U.S.

Jackson made our nation what it is today, politically and geographically, like it or not. We still view his principles as true nationalism in the turist form: Limited government, secure borders, free market economy.

Rick
11-24-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm sorry, I don't hold Jackson to the high esteem you do and it has nothing to do with being vogue. His presidency occurred 50 years after the establishment of the Republic and the signing of the Declaration. More than enough time to understand there were three branches of government. He greatly expanded the practice of giving jobs to political cronies instead of based on some trifling thing like ability. Directly after he was elected he removed 10% of government employees from their jobs. Forget experience and knowledge. Forget education. Rally round the spoils, boys! He was indeed responsible for many things including the Civil Service System because of the crap he pulled while in office.

Even though he knew the British and French were assisting and supplying the Indians the easiest thing to do was get rid of the Indians. So he did. He lobbied against nearly everything the Founding Fathers had put in place; the Electoral College, the National Bank, restrict the role of Congress, and increase the role of the President. The greatest parcels of land he added to the U.S. were lands directly stolen from the indigenous folks. Fully 100 million acres were Indian lands.

your_comforting_company
12-09-2011, 07:28 AM
My thoughts and the ensuing conversations related to Jackson are far too political for this board.

After getting more education about this matter (not the Jackson part of the discussion) I feel that I can relate the ideas, and shed more light on the Old Ways in a much more sensitive way. I do not think it will be an avoidable conversation.. "Why is this white bread, yet again, telling us soandso?". Thanks for the links and suggestions. If anyone would like to view some of the DVD's, just PM me and we'll make arrangements.

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yellowcab
12-15-2025, 02:31 AM
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yellowcab
12-15-2025, 02:32 AM
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yellowcab
03-13-2026, 11:33 PM
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yellowcab
03-13-2026, 11:34 PM
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