This might sound stupid?

[SemperFi]

I was thinking about this and then realized , if you were to bulid a bomb shelter or any kind of underground bunker that didnt utilize a walk in doorway in other words if it uses a hatch to the surface , How do you keep the from being locked in? Obviously if your inside there will be a way to lock it from the inside and if your outside and not there , you could put a lock on it(maybe) , but if Im inside I dont want it to become my tomb either , I dont want someone to put a lock on it from the outside while im in it and just wait me out (it might be a long wait , either way I will either die in there or he will die outside and I will still be locked in!). Do you see my dillemma ?

Ok money means things can get fancy in a hurry , like fingerprint locks , or use of eyes , or a combination outside/inside , preferrably not the same! anyone want to chime in on this?

[rebel]

No dilemma. Have more than one entrance / exit. Be sure to camo one. Like, leave a little sod. Just follow the NVA examples.

[crashdive123]

Doors for underground shelters need to open "in" for the very concerns that you have. If it utilizes a hatch, there had better be (IMO) another option in case the world falls on top of that hatch. If you are not concerned with debris on top you can utilize a hatch fairing much like modern Submarines use. Upper and lower hatches would probably be a good idea.

[kyratshooter]

In my own situation I use two deadbolts on my entry door, one top and one bottom. The entry door is steel, fireproof. There are three heavy duty hinges on the same door and each hinge is backed by a security chain. From the inside there is a bar, as well as the two deadbolts and slip chain and the three security chains.

My back door, heavy plywood & 2x4s sheathed with steel, can only be opened from the inside. I have 4 sliding bolts on the back door, one on each corner. That gets you in the shop. Entry to the house requires passing through another metal door with a sliding bolt at each corner.

All windows are secured, grilled, and can not be opened, even from the inside, without a special tool. All the back windows are second story. Front windows are clear of any shrubery.

That is my house. I have no idea what I would do on a bunker and if I am using the space as a storm shelter I would not be so concerned with security.

The only need I see for a bunker is nuke attack. If that is the case the folk outside are pretty much toast and not much worry.

If there are folks moving around outside with no fear of NBC threats you need to be able to see what is going on. Hiding in a bunker is not the best thing you could have done.

Two kinds of bunkers, hiding bunkers and fighting bunkers.

[JPGreco]

The actual lock means very little. The means of the door/hatch opening means everything. Even if it's the fanciest lock in the world, if it opens out and is blocked, you're screwed. It should open in for sure and even then, I would have a second entrance that is hidden. I personally like burying it. Once you open that one, you only have to dig a little to get out and if the dirt falls in when you open it, it's only like foot's worth.

However, the situation you're postulating about someone locking you in can be done even from a door that opens in. I can park a car over your hatch and blow out the tires. I can throw a lot of big debris on top. I have options to prevent you from getting out, though the odds are I want you out and me in. This makes a second exit not just a good idea, but a necessity.

[natertot]

I would also place the shelter in a semi remote location. If people can't really find it, they can't lock you in. That combined with a second door/hatch concealed by sod, I think you'll be A O'kay.:nuke:

[Winter]

Good thread.

Kyrat. I'd like to see your doors. They sound very secure. I'm curious as to the chains on the hinges.

I concur on the 2 types of bunkers and believe the best bunker would do both. As in, the entryway is a hardened fighting position. An emergency exit is a must.

[Rick]

Unless the weather shelter is small you'll want a second exit for a fire escape anyway. If you are prevented from having the door open in because of construction then have it slide open. If you already have an open out door then a small hydraulic jack might be good to have inside. I've thought that if I had one I'd also have a tube that ran outside that pepper spray could be shot out of.

On the door make certain you have 4 inch case hardened screws through the strike plate into the framework. If you can, a metal plate on the inside of the house that backs the strike plate (at a 90 degree angle) will keep the door from being kicked in if the other items aren't engaged. The strike plate and lock are the weak points in any door.

[SemperFi]

The second door or hatch is excellent and I didnt even think of that ,. just as said too , filled in with dirt , dig your way out !! As far as the entryway , yes the hatch opens in (i see your point !) , I would think it would have to be semi remote and possibly like "Hogans Heroes" with the base of an old tree trunk bolted to the hatch when you open it the tree trunk opens as well !Thanks all!

[Rick]

That would work well especially is Sgt. Schultz it around. He knows nothing, nothing.

[Sparky93]

I'm probably one of the few people my age who knows what Hogans Heroes is.....

[SemperFi]

i dont know about that , its been insyndication for years so somewhere in the world right this moment it is on TV!

[hunter63]

I'm finding this thread pretty intresting as a "Ag" building is in our future at "The Place". Cabin has no basement.
Main concern is storm protection as tornadoes might be the biggest real threat.

What I had in mind is a garage type building with loft area, the back dug into the side of a hill, and a poured concrete 'bunker" located on the inside.
Was thinking abut a 8 x16 ft interior room with steel door, and hatch into the loft.
Undecided is the roof of the room at this point, but was thinking about heavy timbers or steel I-beams

This would give me a storm room and a secure (or mostly secure) place to store stuff that might freeze when not there, as well a more secure location for SHTF preps.
I'm thinking that a dug in, thermal mass room may be able to maintain above freezing temps with a minimal heat source.
Ventilation, possibility filtered is also in the idea box.

In opening door is a great idea, as well as excape route.
Keep the ideas coming as I said I'm in the 'have plans, getting quotes" stage now.

[BENESSE]

Not a bad place to get some ideas. It could be particularly interesting to those who know how to do a lot on their own. I actually found it fascinating.
http://www.hardenedstructures.com/

[rebel]

I'm finding this thread pretty intresting as a "Ag" building is in our future at "The Place". Cabin has no basement.
Main concern is storm protection as tornadoes might be the biggest real threat.

What I had in mind is a garage type building with loft area, the back dug into the side of a hill, and a poured concrete 'bunker" located on the inside.
Was thinking abut a 8 x16 ft interior room with steel door, and hatch into the loft.
Undecided is the roof of the room at this point, but was thinking about heavy timbers or steel I-beams

This would give me a storm room and a secure (or mostly secure) place to store stuff that might freeze when not there, as well a more secure location for SHTF preps.
I'm thinking that a dug in, thermal mass room may be able to maintain above freezing temps with a minimal heat source.
Ventilation, possibility filtered is also in the idea box.

In opening door is a great idea, as well as excape route.
Keep the ideas coming as I said I'm in the 'have plans, getting quotes" stage now.

A couple of days ago I got the green light for a pole barn. I have a 20 foot shipping container that I would like to have buried under the barn. I would have stairs as primary and, an emergency egress culvert tunnel. Here's the problem: I've heard that containers do not hold up to the lateral pressures of being buried. So, I was thinking about adding 3/4 ply to the outside in order to dissipate the pressures. Any thoughts?

[Rick]

I think by the time you pay to reinforce the container you're going to have spent enough to have done it right. Not only will you have to reinforce top and sides but you'll have to reinforce the door frame to keep it from twisting so the door(s) work. Then there is the issue of rust and corrosion and water.

I've never done this personally but I've read tons of material on it because I had the same thoughts in mind. Read through this if you haven't already.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/03/burying_a_shipping_container_o.html

[BScout]

For those that say the door should open in, in large blast doors (or most any where real strength is needed), they open outward.
For ease of conversation, imagine your gun safe with the door hung so it opens inward. It probably wouldn't take 1/2 of the external force to break that door in. With it opening outward, the door is further strengthened by the frame it overlaps and all the active bolts (the kind that slide out from the door into the frame) are exposed on the inside instead of the outside.

[rebel]

I think by the time you pay to reinforce the container you're going to have spent enough to have done it right. Not only will you have to reinforce top and sides but you'll have to reinforce the door frame to keep it from twisting so the door(s) work. Then there is the issue of rust and corrosion and water.

I've never done this personally but I've read tons of material on it because I had the same thoughts in mind. Read through this if you haven't already.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/03/burying_a_shipping_container_o.html

Thanks for the site.

[kyratshooter]

Good thread.

Kyrat. I'd like to see your doors. They sound very secure. I'm curious as to the chains on the hinges.

I concur on the 2 types of bunkers and believe the best bunker would do both. As in, the entryway is a hardened fighting position. An emergency exit is a must.

My doors are very simple and so are the chains. After watching an episode of mythbusters I decided I have given the simple door chain a short shift. They did an episode on busting down a door and the simple little door chain was the last thing to go and it took repeated hits from their heavy set bald guy to finally rupture the door facing. He really complained because they had used dry wall screws to install the chain.

I figured if one was good then four of five would be better!

When I remodeled my house I set 4x4 posts as doorposts. I set the three heavy duty hinges and installed a simple chain set with 3" drywall screws at each hinge. The hinges are set with 3" drywall screws also. They have no effect on the function of the hinge. Even if the door is knocked off its hinges the chains will still hold.

The deadbolts and their chains are high and low on the door and the bar goes across the middle.

Anyone going through all that trouble intends me bodily harm, so at the point of their entry I feel well justified in taking defensive measures. All the hardware gives me plenty of time to prepare their welcome.

It would be easier to take out the wall with a chain saw than come through my front door.

The four sliding bolts on each back door simply shores up any weak points in the security. I did the first one due to the shop door opening to the outside and the hinges being exposed. I peened the hinge pins but also decided to install the bolts on the inside so that if anyone did get past the hinge pins they would face a door still locked in place at all four corners from the inside.

And people wonder why I advocate bugging in? You don't need a bunker, you simply need a properly secured home.

[Rick]

Sounds like you'll be okay unless a heavy set bald guy comes along. Where you gonna find a guy like that in Kentucky?

[kyratshooter]

The only ones I am worried about are the ones with chain saws!

[JPGreco]

If you're really concerned, replace the drywall screws with wood screws. Wood screws have a greater shear strength than drywall screws. I'm not sure how much greater, but there is a reason there are wood screws vs drywall screws.

BScout, you have to remember though, blast doors are a very different animal than a small bunker door. Blast doors rarely have to worry about debris blocking them or someone being able to lock them in since it all runs on heavy hydraulics. As for gun safes, it's not by strength design that doors swing out, it's to maximize useable space inside the safe. If a safe door swung in, they would have to be at least twice as big to hold the same amount of stuff.

In fact, the only part of your statement that holds water is that a outward swinging door is reinforced by the frame against blunt force impacts. Though you can easily reinforce any in swinging door to have similar strength by securing a bar to the frame work across the door.

[BScout]

BScout, you have to remember though, blast doors are a very different animal than a small bunker door.


I was thinking about this and then realized , if you were to bulid a bomb shelter or any kind of underground bunker

The OP mentioned "bomb shelter" in the very first line of this thread so IMHO, blast doors or others that can withstand a bomb may be relevant to the thread.


Blast doors rarely have to worry about debris blocking them or someone being able to lock them in since it all runs on heavy hydraulics.
Ummm, no they don't all run on hydraulics. I know of many myself that are true blast doors but opened manually. I have several myself.


As for gun safes, it's not by strength design that doors swing out, it's to maximize useable space inside the safe. If a safe door swung in, they would have to be at least twice as big to hold the same amount of stuff.
Read my post again.


For ease of conversation, imagine your gun safe with the door hung so it opens inward.
Was I describing why gun safes open in or out or was I discussing door bolts and frames?


In fact, the only part of your statement that holds water...
Are you always this condescending? For the record, I happen to be co-owner of a very large, government built underground bunker that was built during the cold war. It was made to withstand WW3. It has 4 ingress/egress points with blast doors so I may know just a tad about the subject. Just because my handle is BScout, don't think I'm a teenage Boy Scout. I'm pushing 50 and have been around the block more then once.


If you already have an open out door then a small hydraulic jack might be good to have inside.
Just to mention, have a non-hydraulic (mechanical) jack as well. Hyd. jacks don't work well (if at all) when used horizontally. If your escape hatch is overhead, hyd is perfect. If it opens out like a regular door, you'll want a mechanical jack.


Not a bad place to get some ideas. It could be particularly interesting to those who know how to do a lot on their own. I actually found it fascinating.
http://www.hardenedstructures.com/
Great people to deal with and really know their stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to use them.

[Rick]

Just to mention, have a non-hydraulic (mechanical) jack as well. Hyd. jacks don't work well (if at all) when used horizontally. If your escape hatch is overhead, hyd is perfect. If it opens out like a regular door, you'll want a mechanical jack.

You're absolutely correct. I was thinking strictly overhead and didn't even consider a regular threshold.

You comment on the bunker is pretty interesting. Most folks don't realize that AT&T built many, many underground bunkers that are scattered through the East, Midwest and some North to manage the transcontinental cable. I'm sure the government paid for it but it was owned by AT&T. This cable was designed as the final communication link for government should WW3 occur. I've been inside some of these and they were designed to accommodate X number of employees (# depended on the facility) with blast doors, decon shower, water, food, onsight, below ground generators and deep well for water. I'm probably missing something here but you get the point. The transcon route was flown daily looking for any suspicious activity or any digging in or near the cable. If digging was spotted the plane would literally bomb the workers with a parachute laden container that ordered them to cease work and that "officials" would be on site shortly. I've read the containers but I have no idea who "officials" were.

To my knowledge all of that is gone. By the late '70s the food and water stores were no longer on site and the bunkers were put up for sale, generally to the local landowner since most of these were in the middle of farmland somewhere.

All that being said, did you pick up one of these sites?

[Rick]

Here's a web site I found that talks a little about it. The tower located in the picture was to communicate with the aircraft. At least that's one of the uses. The sites that I was in were always in communication with the aircraft as it reported in various locations it passed over. What else was on the towers I have no idea.

http://people.cis.ksu.edu/~ddeboer/att-l4/

[crashdive123]

BScout - a question for you since you have some experience in the area --- what about pocket style, or sliding doors? I would think that framing could be installed in such a manner as to afford the strength of a door that opens outward but without some of the dangers of it being blocked by debris. While I did not consider strength to be an issue when I mentioned doors opening in, I can see your point. I was thinking more storm shelter type of bunker, but even then a door that opens in would have to be braced for structural integrity.

[BScout]

For my place, the last ditch egress points are where nothing opens out. You're not going through a blast door and taking stairs, but instead, going through in fact a sliding door, hatch, ladder...

The sliding doors (not pocket) are on the inside of the wall. They're hefty at a couple inches thick but not nearly the strength of a blast door so they're physical protection is furthered by a 10-12" thick concrete wall between the door and more towards the outside (where the next hatch and stairs reside).

It's on the inside and not pocketed because if there were a blast close enough to bend the door by air pressure or otherwise, it can still be opened. If the door was outside the wall or a pocket door and bowed in, you wouldn't be able to slide it open as it would hit the frame and wall.

As for strength and mounting, really heavy duty tracking is on top (similar in design to what's on a barn door) and the bottom of the door rides in a track so the bottom can't swing out.

[crashdive123]

Makes sense. Thanks.

[Winter]

BScout, we are gonna need some bunker porn pics.

I've always wanted a hardened home and I have plans for one that will come in at $37 PSQFT. Only took me, oh 20 yrs to figure it out.

[BENESSE]

Winter, if you can pull it off at $37 PSQFT it's an amazing deal.
I've looked into this throughout the years and I've always found it to be a very high priced proposition--if done right. (by professionals) Of course, if you can do most of it yourself you've got a huge advantage.

[Winter]

I'll share. It isn't underground and will look alot like a castle.

http://www.grazianoconcrete.com/interlocking_blocks.html

Here, these blocks are $123 a piece. Down south probleby a lot less. They are 2 ft by 4 ft.

[Rick]

Grazziano Concrete in Massachusetts?! Are we building castles or sleeping with fishes?

[BScout]

BScout, we are gonna need some bunker porn pics.

Sorry, don't know you well enough to share real porn.

Here's some porn lite that's related to this topic.

First pic shows the door frame so you can see the thickness of the wall surrounding the door which is 10-12" of concrete. If you look at the top of the pic, you'll see the motor control for the door. This allows electric opening which can be done at the door (with keyed security) or remotely from below.

Second shows the solid steel door thickness. The aluminum is part of EMP protection.

Third is the sliding door discussed earlier in the thread.

Forth is the upper blast door closed, as seen from the outside, exterior room. The room the pic was taken from has audio and video monitoring and communication so you can see activity and operate the door from the bunker if you want to grant admittance.

6973697069716972

[SemperFi]

Now this is what im talking baout all very good points and I was hoping someone with intimate knowledge (bscout thanks) would contribute , this is getting really interesting ,keep it coming because door/ hatch is real question with many assets / limitations!

[BScout]

For a hatch, here's one that's really strong. Pardon the pic as it's very old and prior to the hatch getting fixed back up and all bolts put back in place.

6974

Hopefully how it works can be figured out from the picture. Obviously, this is shown from the inside. From the outside, it's just a piece of flat steel which is probably 1" thick. This is an open inward hatch.

Three of the four bolts is missing in the pic but you can see from the 4th bolt that if you pull the handle down clockwise, the center cam will retract all the bolts so you can open the hatch. When the handle is pushed up (counter-clockwise), it will push all the bolts back into the frame.

[Winter]

Nice. Those are some solid doors.

[Rick]

May I ask where the hatch would be used? Is that on an emergency exit or something of the type? Do the doors have any type of seal against chemical exposure? I'm not worried about mustard gas but train derailments and industrial accidents happen.

These are great pics. Thanks for sharing them.

[BScout]

Yes, that's an emergency exit.

Primary and secondary exits are through blast doors. Open doors, walk up stairs, more blast doors, a final steel man door and go outside.

The tertiary exit is:
Through the aforementioned picture of the sliding door.
Around the 12" thick wall that separates that slider with the hatch. The wall is for blast protection.
Through a steel man door.
Through the pictured hatch.
Up a vertical set of stairs.
Through a caged hatch that's at surface level.
Then you're outside at ground level.

As it relates to "dirty air" (that's a technical term)
Normal state/protocol is that all the doors are kept closed.

Outside (but are no longer active) were 3 detectors surrounding the building at about 100 yards. If they detected something (e.g. EMP), an automatic shutdown would happen, which closes air dampers and other air systems and starts special air processing. The exterior air damper systems are closed in milli-seconds. There's also manual controls to do this.

The damper systems that shut things down are electrically powered but also have a pneumatic backup that's always pressured to do it should electricity already be out.

Inside the building, there are "dirty" and "clean" air areas. You obviously need to stay in the "clean" area. The "dirty" areas are where the air intake is as well as the generator room. The generators are large turbine ones (about 200KW each) so they suck a lot of air. Instead of feeding those engines clean air, dirty air is pumped to them and exhausted directly back out.

OK, for clean air. In the "dirty" air section, there's a NBC filter with motor that blows clean air into the "clean" area at pretty high volume. This generates a high-pressure system in the clean area as it relates to the dirty area. That high-pressure then pushes air through to the low pressure areas (e.g. door crack at the sliding door or under the door that goes to the generator room) to make sure it's always clean air going out instead of dirty air coming in. Here's a panel that shows the monitor and control for the generator room. OK, maybe not. Almost out of time and it's too big to upload. Anyway, it displays indoor and outdoor temperature as well as the static difference between them so you can make sure you're on the plus side. There's controls to manually control the pressure differences as well as a "purge" mode.

Speaking of "purge" mode, there's a series of controls/processes that pretty much reverse things. Let's say all is well outside but you have a fire inside.
Either you or the fire detectors find the fire. If the latter, things happen more automatically.
Throughout the facility, there's fire-pulls that when pulled activate fire suppression systems (pressurize the water/standpipe/hose systems). This happens automatically if the fire detector gets it first.
You put the fire out manually if you can. Due to electrical components, there's no sprinkler system as it would just create more problems. BTW, you wear your mask and air tanks while doing all this.
Well, the place is filling with or has filled with smoke.
Once the fire is out, you head for the exit. There's buttons/controls near the exit that invoke the "purge" mode which reverses blowers and such and sucks the (smoky) air out of the facility and pulls in clean from outside. This is a seriously high-volume process. If you stand in an exit area where it's blowing the air out, expect winds at 30+ MPH. It took the smokey air out, replaced it with clean so you can now re-enter.

[1stimestar]

A couple of days ago I got the green light for a pole barn. I have a 20 foot shipping container that I would like to have buried under the barn. I would have stairs as primary and, an emergency egress culvert tunnel. Here's the problem: I've heard that containers do not hold up to the lateral pressures of being buried. So, I was thinking about adding 3/4 ply to the outside in order to dissipate the pressures. Any thoughts?

My dad buried a large bread truck right behind his house. How he did it was to just dig a big hole in the ground with a ramp, pushed the truck down, filled in the ramp area and built a big deck over the top with a hidden access to the back of the van. The hole was bigger then the truck so the dirt didn't actually touch the sides. There was the deck on top so it wasn't technically buried so no reinforcements needed. No one ever knew it was there but family.

[tsitenha]

Sorry if someone has already mentioned it...
have a couple of shovels, picks and wrecking bars to help in the digging out of the "bunker". An emergency exit does not have to show as long as you know where it is from the inside. Plant "sod" on the out side or a pile of rocks over a stell cover that you can use a jack to lift the rubble off. Also have some dedicated space to allow for the debri to fall in and be placed out of the way.

[SemperFi]

exactly my thinking tsitenha I suppose if the bunker was big enough like an old silo storing the excess wouldnt be a problem but in a smaller sized bunker 1-8 man , maybe not filling in the walls on the outside would suffice , although limiting the repercussion from the blast that way, you gonna want the protections of the dirt pressure around you , so maybe is theres a way to build a similiar structure but not quite the specs next to you so you will be able to leave the excavated dirt?

[yellowcab]

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Jerr (http://knockonatom.ru/t/253427)мен� (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/603446)Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/156927)иллю (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/671651)Swar (http://laborracket.ru/t/157132)121/ (http://labourearnings.ru/t/157769)кото (http://labourleasing.ru/t/247152)nkof (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/335576)Мошл (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/297149)Jean (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/362215)XVII (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/362842)Wind (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/177686)Time (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/69966)Past (http://laggingload.ru/t/81288)30-2 (http://laissezaller.ru/t/176098)
Appl (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/68045)flOw (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/164411)Erle (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/229882)Шмид (http://lamphouse.ru/t/279578)Carl (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/172979)Musi (http://lancingdie.ru/t/68571)Rodr (http://landingdoor.ru/t/168322)Benj (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/169964)книг (http://landreform.ru/t/288126)Keit (http://landuseratio.ru/t/175400)англ (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/285076)хоро (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159995)те�а (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/152037)прод (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/119)Bott (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589204)

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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