View Full Version : Colman Propane lights - don't try this at home.....
Wise Old Owl
09-13-2011, 09:15 PM
I happen to own a Northstar Coleman Propane Lantern that came with a laundry list of warnings. Recently during the last hurricane I discovered that my 70+ Dad went and used three GP Propane Lamps to light the house during the power failure. I was quite concerned about the Carbon Dioxide Warnings & Carbon Monoxide warnings. His take on all this is quite different as the invention of the mantle brought better light and safety since 1892 to cities all over the world. I remember the heat these lamps generate inside EZUP's during the dead of winter with the sides on, and they make a superior kitchen for 70 scouts. I looked up all the Coleman Lamps and discovered the gasoline ones are without the warnings and the propane ones which came later have the warnings. So here is the rub after several phone calls and not able to get through to customer service, I decided to make my own test. Starting with a trip to Home Despot I picked up a Kidde CO monitor with display. I picked a small bathroom and installed a timer and temp alarm... I fired the Northstar and put it on the toilet and set the alarms and timers.
30 plus minutes in a 8 x5 x10 bathroom and the temp is up from 70 - 98 degrees F. the Carbon Monoxide - is still zero. So If I keep the monitors and try to be real safe, I will buy three more smaller instastarts for the house for failures. And I will get rid of the smelly Kerosene lamps that I have, even with the perfumed oils my wife just hates them. I write this to inspire others to be very careful, yet I know that using candles and other home survival gear that the experts say to use is biased. I am now convinced that Coleman is safer to use inside over a candle, for short periods of time. In winter this lamp is a blessing. Light and warmth at the same time.
After 40 minutes there was still usable oxegen in the room and the lamp was still on.... Providing 150 watts for a large room.
Seriously great light, I wish Coleman would frost the damn Globes more.
After this post what I am looking for is things I haven't thought of, I noticed a proper shut down is critical. What do you think of my checks and equipment? I am making this my back up for when a generator isn't practical.
Oh and after 40 minutes and shut off I came back after 10 minutes and the unit read 18 PPM of Carbon Monoxide - still safe.
I think you went about it the right way so props for that. Just remember that you are only reading CO with the alarm and not CO2 or any other particulates that the light may be putting out. Your dad is right about the mantle. The thing he is forgetting is that homes in 1892 and up until about 1972 were pretty breezy. Once we started insulating and really sealing up homes then burning stuff inside becomes a greater hazard because we no longer have the rapid exchange of air that we once had.
An LP or Natural Gas stove doesn't pose a credible risk to the user so I don't see why the propane light would. We give no thought at all about cooking a huge meal on a gas stove with burners running and the oven cranked up.
I gave you some rep for the write up. You set up a controlled experiment and did a nice write up. Thanks!
hunter63
09-13-2011, 10:03 PM
You do hear about people killing them selves with a propane heater running in a small tent from time to time,..... but I used to use a propane lantern to take the chill out of the back of the truck cap when using it as light/heater during deer season.
Rep for the write up.
letslearntogether47
09-14-2011, 02:57 PM
So are the mantle fuel burning lanterns not good for indoors?
And why do they make tent heaters(I have one)if you can't use them in a tent?
I have to one that's a ceramic catalytic heater.
Great write up WOO.
Wise Old Owl
09-14-2011, 03:16 PM
Most Mantle lamps are too bulky and large for tents - or tents are too small - I use them to hang from the center of the Ez - up or to provide light at Dinner while camping outdoors. The Tent Heater that uses propane - is generally safe in a large tent that is vented. I guess I should google that for incidents of accidents.
LLT - I would not use a liquid fuel lantern indoors. Even a brand new one will not burn efficiently enough to prevent both CO and CO2 from being released. You can get pretty woozy using a Coleman stove inside (or so someone told me not that I'd do anything dumb like that. Naw, not me). I wouldn't want to use a flame anything inside a tent either. I have used my pocket rocket in the vestibule when it was raining but I've never been brave enough to fire up anything inside a tent. Those tents can go up pretty fast!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qj4XaRCP_50/TI7em9ijKgI/AAAAAAAABDY/qHxI6Kt5700/s1600/Wile+E.+Coyote3.jpg
sigma_pete
09-19-2011, 09:36 PM
Got that right. Last winter, one of my scouts knocked a propane lantern over (was sitting on sand outside the tent) and poof, no more tent, just a molten pile of nylon and poly tarp material. Good thing no one was inside. No way you could get out in time.
LLT - I would not use a liquid fuel lantern indoors. Even a brand new one will not burn efficiently enough to prevent both CO and CO2 from being released. You can get pretty woozy using a Coleman stove inside (or so someone told me not that I'd do anything dumb like that. Naw, not me). I wouldn't want to use a flame anything inside a tent either. I have used my pocket rocket in the vestibule when it was raining but I've never been brave enough to fire up anything inside a tent. Those tents can go up pretty fast!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qj4XaRCP_50/TI7em9ijKgI/AAAAAAAABDY/qHxI6Kt5700/s1600/Wile+E.+Coyote3.jpg
Wise Old Owl
09-24-2011, 10:40 PM
Wow thats interesting they were at one time required like a mattress to be fire retardent!
edr730
09-24-2011, 11:59 PM
I would think nothing of bringing of bringing in an outside grill inside to cook on if I needed to. I don't need to since I already cook on my propane stove inside every day. Many hunters use them in their hunting blinds. I don't know if I know any ice fishermen who don't use them in their ice shanties. A few may still use the old metal mail boxes for woodstoves. The landings who rent ice shanties supply unvented propane heaters for their customers. All hardware stores sell propane heaters that people use for these purposes. I've heated my whole house all winter with my propane stove and it's a pretty tight house. However, many things we do are not entirely safe and the chemicals that one uses inside a house can be burned by the flame and create who knows what. Also, like the older furnaces or wood stoves, you would have a lower level of oxygen without an intake from outside. I'm sure anyone with experience with propane knows these things are done on a regular basis.
gryffynklm
09-25-2011, 08:34 AM
Wise Old Owl, good methods and write up.
I agree with rick, you only monitored one of the gasses resulting from the burning of propane. There may be other gasses that are released like CO2.
LLT, If you read the instructions for tent heaters they do list warnings about ventilation and the type of tent used. The main "Thing" about using a propane device and using it indoors or in a confined space like a tent is the complete and efficient burn of the propane. If your device is not burning properly because of lack of maintenance, it's age or accidental unseen damage the propane may not burn complete.
Two weeks ago I was camping for ten days at Fort Seybert WV on the side of a mountain. No snow but we were in the mid 30's a few nights. My wife and I used a Coleman Black cat Catalytic heater. I have two, I start one and burn most of the night about 6 hours, then start the other when I heed the call of nature. The older of the two didn't start a full burn. I could smell propane from the heater burner unit despite the glow from some of the gas burning. The glow was not complete over the pad. I left the tent and brought a match to the heater head that was already had a partial glow from burning. WOOSh just like starting a cold heater. Incomplete burn.....
Needless to say the heater was not used. The burn may have eventually spread over the entire heater surface but it was taking longer then usual. Not worth the chance while sleeping.
Potential negative results are obviously inhalation of propane and a potential explosive build up of propane in a tent. By the way our tent is an 8' x 10' wall tent plenty of ventilation. I just returned so Coleman will be contacted to inform them of situation.
gryffynklm
09-25-2011, 08:35 AM
oops double post Operator error
edr - It's not about suing anyone. Some propane heaters are designed to be used in an enclosed space and some are not. Simple as that. If you brought a grill, charcoal or gas, inside your home then you would be filling your house with both carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Grills simply are not designed to be used indoors. All of them have warnings to that affect and they are not just covering their liability. You wouldn't think about venting a gas fired appliance like a water heater indoors but if you are using a grill inside, even in your garage, you are doing the same thing.
Your CO monitor will tell you that if you have one. It will alarm in short order. And remember that homes today are sealed much more tightly than they were even a few years ago so there isn't an exchange of fresh air like there used to be. As we sealed up our homes to keep out the heat and cold we also sealed up the pollutants indoors with us.
edr730
09-25-2011, 10:54 AM
Rick, bringing a charcoal grill inside and going to sleep would be like inviting death. People do die from that. I'm not sure that there is or isn't a difference between the burner on my cooking stove and the water heater or gas grill. I've used many propane burners or catalytic heater indoors. Many people do. That being said, I don't think any of them are 100% safe, including my cook stove, and you will always get CO2 and water and oxygen usage along with any other contaminates which are not refined out of the propane. My understanding is that when the oxygen levels get extremely low enough CO is produced. I know that some propane is cleaner. Some heaters or burners are cleaner. I'm not sure if that is always by design or faulty mechanisms. I've been in big buildings which were temporarily heated with large propane salamanders with 100 lb tanks around which smelled terrible and made my eyes burn, but nobody but me seemed to complain. You would be looked at like some kind of nut if you tried to tell them that burning the propane like that might kill them all or even make them sick. Reasonable caution should be used. As gryffy experienced, even the recommended heaters can not be completely depended on to be completely safe.
I think we are in agreement. Perhaps I misread your post.
tipacanoe
09-25-2011, 02:03 PM
Quite a few years ago, 20+ a guy from work, went deer hunting in northern Maine, and slept in the back of his truck in the cap with a window open, using a Coleman lantern for heat and never woke up. I don't know if it was propane or not, but I doubt it was that long ago. Just don't do it.
edr730
09-25-2011, 02:12 PM
I recall, now, about the papaya seeds for malaria, cancer and a number of other sicknesses. I recall that I have some seeds saved. I had never heard that it was used for parasites. I know that it is a cousin of South American graviola and the North American pawpaw, all of which have been researched and shown to have some powerful medicinal properties. Thanks, I think I will read a bit more about those plants again. I did read that pregnant women should not use it. I wish they grew in my area or that I could buy football size papayas rather than softball size ones.
edr730
09-25-2011, 02:14 PM
oops...wrong thread....I was daydreaming
Wise Old Owl
10-06-2011, 07:53 PM
Wise Old Owl, good methods and write up.
I agree with rick, you only monitored one of the gasses resulting from the burning of propane. There may be other gasses that are released like CO2.
LLT, If you read the instructions for tent heaters they do list warnings about ventilation and the type of tent used. The main "Thing" about using a propane device and using it indoors or in a confined space like a tent is the complete and efficient burn of the propane. If your device is not burning properly because of lack of maintenance, it's age or accidental unseen damage the propane may not burn complete.
Two weeks ago I was camping for ten days at Fort Seybert WV on the side of a mountain. No snow but we were in the mid 30's a few nights. My wife and I used a Coleman Black cat Catalytic heater. I have two, I start one and burn most of the night about 6 hours, then start the other when I heed the call of nature. The older of the two didn't start a full burn. I could smell propane from the heater burner unit despite the glow from some of the gas burning. The glow was not complete over the pad. I left the tent and brought a match to the heater head that was already had a partial glow from burning. WOOSh just like starting a cold heater. Incomplete burn.....
Needless to say the heater was not used. The burn may have eventually spread over the entire heater surface but it was taking longer then usual. Not worth the chance while sleeping.
Potential negative results are obviously inhalation of propane and a potential explosive build up of propane in a tent. By the way our tent is an 8' x 10' wall tent plenty of ventilation. I just returned so Coleman will be contacted to inform them of situation.
Yes I have been through that too... if you notice --- Walrmart spelled the way deliberately stopped selling that system and jumped on the Heater Buddy.
Light the unit vertically wait a while 5 minutes and then put in slanted position... I have mine attached sometimes to a 20 lbs bottle.
Wise Old Owl
10-06-2011, 08:01 PM
Quite a few years ago, 20+ a guy from work, went deer hunting in northern Maine, and slept in the back of his truck in the cap with a window open, using a Coleman lantern for heat and never woke up. I don't know if it was propane or not, but I doubt it was that long ago. Just don't do it.
Yea that is a different outcome - based on the fact that you are in less than 7x6x4 space that is semi air tight even with the window open if F-in COLD from personal experience. Want to talk about young and stupid - I was 26 a lit a jellied stove to defray the cold in a old cotton sleeping bag... Woke up around three with a massive headache. wasn't the worst.... but close
The worst was down wind the center campfire smoke in a vented Coleman Tent. - won't do that again - the smoke collected inside the tent on a cold night..... Ouch....
Woke up and could not see my hand in front of me....and the headache -OMG>
Lucky you woke up both times. I worked with a guy that passed out at home because of a crack in the heat exchanger. His wife tried calling and finally went home and found him. He was lucky to have lived. All his hair fell out though, which I thought was pretty weird. His doctor told him if he had been a smaller person he would have died.
Wise Old Owl
10-06-2011, 09:48 PM
Right now I am more interested how you have two firefox windows open and can answer new posts so damn fast...
On the first question just go to File->New Tab or do a Ctrl+T and a new tab will open. You can have two sessions of wilderness-survival.net open in case you want to research something on the forum while making a post or the forum and google or anything you want.
On the second question, smoke and mirrors, brother, smoke and mirrors.
1stimestar
10-08-2011, 01:50 AM
I have a coleman propane tent heater. It says to ventilate by opening the windows a couple of inches. I just unzip the tops of the windows a bit and let it run for a couple of hours before bed. Then I get in my bag and stay awake till I am heated up in there. Then I turn off the heater and zip up the windows. I'm too scared to leave it on all night. But it does help take the chill off.
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