Ballistics , dont count on them in real life!

[SemperFi]

If you've ever been to one of the big gun forums , they constantly have discussions over ballistics and many of the discussions are over certain calibers being better than the other one. Ballistics are fine if your reloading and trying to maximise the velocity and or/torque of the rounds your using , but lets face it , bad guys dont care about that , and the fact is whether the critics want to call a certain round a defensive round or not who cares , you never see them calling it an "offensive" round , so with that all rounds are defensive (and they can be offensive as well!)

You can tell me till your blue in the face how fast a 9mm +p+ bullet can travel , but its doesnt mean squat , several factors arise , first off , a .22 can kill you just as "fast" as a 9mm , a blink of an eye and you go down , then you have the power of the projectile , a .45acp hitting at a slower rate of speed will still do more damage than a 9+p+ , plain and simple !

None of this matters of course if you dont practice , the bad guys generally do practice , I know it sounds amazing but they do , they have learned especially some of the more organized gansta's , like White and Mexican gangs , cops dont practice much so I wouldnt rely heavily on there protection . Guns also have gotten better , 10 years ago I wouldnt have thought twice about a high point , now , high point makes quality guns for cheap and they are American made! Think twice about trashing that ugly monster!

But in this forum fortunately balistics arent the key , the key is for self reliance and self defense ! Which makes balistics unimportant (to an extent) !

[LowKey]

I am trying to learn more about black powder maximization. I have a Hawken I'm trying to find the best load for, that doesn't waste powder but will take down a deer. That kind of thing is important to learn on this type of forum.
Perhaps the same could be said for reloaders. Not wasting your resources could be a good thing to learn here.
Do you really need to spend the dough on +P+ ammo when standard will do you as well? As long as it fires reliably, I don't see the point. Saves wear and tear on the pistol too not shooting high pressure ammo.
It just seems everyone is in a race for farther and faster. Farther, I can see. Faster, at supersonic speeds, is a moot point.

[SemperFi]

Precisely ! I agree this is an excellent forum and Im sure there many people to learn from , thats the reason I joined ! I dont know enough about relaoding to give you advice , I do know that ballistics arent gonna matter when your at your bug out and someones trying to get your food or water storage , I wont be thinking of that ,I will be firing my .45-70 Marlin to get there attention ,if not striking them and possibly finishing them off with my ,45acp!

[kyratshooter]

The reason you are not taking balistics into consideration is because you are not a reloader. Precisely stated, the faster your slug gets to the target the less time it has to fall down. This is way a .308 has 4 inches of drop at 300 yards and a .45-70 has 12. This might not mater if your man sized target is standing up charging you but if he has sense enough to lay down you need to have flat shooting and precise accuracy.

Supersonic is 1100fps and there is a BIG DIFERENCE between 1100fps and the2400-2800fps developed by most modern rifle loads. There is even a big difference between the 850 fps of a 150gn .38 slug and 1200fps for the same slug out of a .357. The difference between the 950fps the old American 9mm load gave and the 1200fps now achieved is the difference between the sp or hp slug expanding or not expanding.

LOWKEY; very good question on black powder. I will start another thread and deal with that as the seperate topic it deserves.

[crashdive123]

Wait. There are other forums?

[glockcop]

Kyratshooter's post was spot on. Good reponse that settles it out. In the same caliber and bullet weight, faster is better. That's physics plain and simple. To clear up what was said about a .45 doing more damage than a 9mm +P+ in a word...NOPE. Not in ballistic gel and not in street statistics (vague as they are). 9mm +P+ has a larger temporary and permanent crush cavity in ballistic gel and carries more energy than a standard .45ACP. Physics stikes again. So which is better a 9 or a .45? In the real world there is not a whole bunch difference between .40, .45, 9mm, +P, +P+, or whatever but on paper and in the lab "+P+" offers better performance in any given caliber. I do agree that in most weapons "+P+" will cause undue wear and tear in exchange for a slight ballistic advantage but the lab nerds can prove that there IS an advantage. In any given caliber if I had only one bullet and had to make that one bullet do it's job without question, I would choose +P+ over standard pressure because of the slight advantage. That's common sense. To sum all this ballistic banter up, "speed kills". Now to address High Point "quality". If one thinks a Yugo is a quality car, then I guess the High Point can claim similar presitige. IMO and most others, a Yugo will get you there ''most of the time'' but I am not going to rely on "most of the time" in a handgun. IMO "pot metal" and poor design does not equal quality. High Point pistols are semi-reliable at best and far too bulky necessitated by the lack of strength of the crappy magnesium based materials. Another fact is most criminals do not practice marksmanship. Have you ever see the sideways "home boy" grip? I have first hand and thank God for their lack of training. You won't learn that one at the Gunsight Ranch or SWAT courses. Most criminals also could care less about what gun they use as long as there is no paper trail to it (aka stolen). Some criminals do, as I have seen first hand, practice defensively (hand to hand) while inside of prison walls but even that is the vast minority. Most bad guys rely on dumb luck and high hopes above anything else.

[Pal334]

Short and to the point: If you can't hit it, then it don't count.

My first choice of caliber is obvious, but the above says it all

[2dumb2kwit]

Well....I kinda think everyone is right, but I'm with pal. The best defensive firearm is the one that you're most comfortable/proficient with.

Then again, I'm no expert.

[kyratshooter]

Hey, was there a Hi Point mentioned? I missed that!

Now I own a Hi Point, showing that I am definately not a brand snob. I bought it to shoot up all the 9mm ammo I had on hand due to picking up reloadable brass at the range. There is also the off chance I might have to shoot a poodle at some point.

My Hi Point will shoot, but it is not a precision shooter. It has been fun to play with since the first breakage resulted in full auto fire and I refuse to give up ownership of that particular sear spring. If the feds can find it they can have it. Even if they can find it among the clutter I can make another from a ball point pen.

Yes, the HP will go full auto with no modifications to any parts. All it takes is a short/broken sear spring at which point it will cycle at about 2,000rpm.

Never persuade yourself that the Hi Point is made from the best of parts and materials. It is a stamped and pinned injection molded wonder but it is not on a par with a S&W poly frame of even a (gasp) Glock. And no, it is not just like a Glock, just as good as a Glock or just as accurate as a Glock, as many of its proponants claim and even the near blind can tell it is not a Glock at first glance.

And yes there are other forums. They are not very good and their membership is no where near as intelligent as ours but their vain attempt does exist.

There is even a Hi Point forum if you want some giggles on a dull day. They have debates over the need to carry with the safety on or off because their gun is just like a Glock which does not have a safety. This also makes the Hi Point superior, in their eyes, due to giving them the choice of using the safety or not. (Keep in mind that the HP is a striker fired single action made from stamped parts. Sometimes a small burr in the works is all that is holding back the firing pin.)

[LowKey]

I can see needing speed and accuracy at 100 yards in a SHTF scenario. I understand the concept of drop over distance.

If you are using a gun in self defense though, the assailant better not be 100 yards away...
For self defense I would go for a load that would flatten, spread or break apart on impact and STOP the assailant at close range.
I'm no expert though.
Kyratshooter, I'll look for that other thread on black powder. Thanks!

[Rick]

But, but, but, I like my 995. (sniff). And it's not ugly at all.

[hunter63]

I can see needing speed and accuracy at 100 yards in a SHTF scenario. I understand the concept of drop over distance.

If you are using a gun in self defense though, the assailant better not be 100 yards away...
For self defense I would go for a load that would flatten, spread or break apart on impact and STOP the assailant at close range.
I'm no expert though.
Kyratshooter, I'll look for that other thread on black powder. Thanks!

100 yards for defense is too close.....200, 300 yds are much better.......Give me a flat shooting rifle any day, ....and stay out there....close stuff is shot gun territory.

[kyratshooter]

100 yards for defense is too close.....200, 300 yds are much better.......Give me a flat shooting rifle any day, ....and stay out there....close stuff is shot gun territory.

Absolutely correct. Defense against an known enemy target requires engagement at maximim effective range. If they are armed and comming at me they are the enemy. (I go so far as to say if they have BOB and black rifle they qualify) I am not waiting until they are a 10 second sprint from my door.

[LowKey]

I'm talking everyday, on-the-street defense. Not SHTF.
Can't use rifle/shotgun for that. And if someone is 100yds away and you shoot them in self-defense in the here-and-now, you're gonna have some serious explaining to do.

I get a kick out of the kids at the range asking me why I'm shooting a .45 carry pistol at a target 25 yards downrange. That's cuz anyone can (or should be able to) hit a target at 5 yards. With iron sights, not one of those fancy laser light cat toys.
5 yards is just no fun.

[hunter63]

I guess if the .45 1911 is what you have,like, are practiced with, feel comfortable with....That's what you should carry.
Training, experience, and confidence will make a big difference on effectiveness no matter what it is.

[Rick]

I don't get any of this. Sorry. Even if SHTF I'm not going to off someone at 200 yards because of the way they are dressed. What if he's walking point for his wife and three little kids? You can conjure up all the bad guy stuff you want and I can counter-conjure (I just made that up by the way) good guy stuff. You had better know what your target is before you pull the trigger. Otherwise, as Lowkey said, you might have some 'splainin to do even in a SHTF situation. There were folks on trial this year in New Orleans because they were quick to pull the trigger in a SHTF situation and they were LEO.

I don't know squat about ballistics. I get the general gist of mass vs. distance and all that. But I don't figure any of it out when I'm shooting today and I won't if SHTF. I don't think I'll be concentrating on 200 yard soldier boys unless they are waving a yellow star on a red field and singing March of the Volunteers. I won't target the one yelling "10 minute" either.

[glockcop]

Kyratshooter : "Hey, was there a Hi Point mentioned? I missed that!"
Yes. Second to last paragraph of Semperfi's O.P. As Kyratshooter pointed out these P.O.S. will go full auto if the sear is worn as will a 1911 :) (was that an experience!). No, they are NOT in the same category! Again, as Kyratshooter said, I'm not a ''brand snob'' either, but I am a quality snob. My carry weapons have to perform 100% if I want to see my kids graduate. High Point doesn't make the mark by far for me. I absolutely agree with the wisdom of Hunter63 in his quote, "I guess if the .45 1911 is what you have,like, are practiced with, feel comfortable with....That's what you should carry.Training, experience, and confidence will make a big difference on effectiveness no matter what it is.". Yep, yep, yep! Most people need to realize that caliber wars are about as worthless as a screen door on a submarine because NO pistol will ever be a Remington 870 12 guage shotgun. That little number, my friends, is ''THE END ALL DO ALL PEOPLE STOPPER'':).

[Rick]

Perhaps, as moderator, I should point out that bigotry in its many disguises is not allowed. Yes, I happen to be a Hi-Point owner and I take exception to everyone's thinly veiled comments of "not a gun snob". Baloney. You're gun bigots. At least be man enough to stand up and admit it! I just hope the day never comes when I have to save your sorry hide with my 995 because your "whatever" failed. End rant.

[2dumb2kwit]

Kyratshooter : "Hey, was there a Hi Point mentioned? I missed that!"
Yes. Second to last paragraph of Semperfi's O.P. As Kyratshooter pointed out these P.O.S. will go full auto if the sear is worn as will a 1911 :) (was that an experience!). No, they are NOT in the same category! Again, as Kyratshooter said, I'm not a ''brand snob'' either, but I am a quality snob. My carry weapons have to perform 100% if I want to see my kids graduate. High Point doesn't make the mark by far for me. I absolutely agree with the wisdom of Hunter63 in his quote, "I guess if the .45 1911 is what you have,like, are practiced with, feel comfortable with....That's what you should carry.Training, experience, and confidence will make a big difference on effectiveness no matter what it is.". Yep, yep, yep! Most people need to realize that caliber wars are about as worthless as a screen door on a submarine because NO pistol will ever be a Remington 870 12 guage shotgun. That little number, my friends, is ''THE END ALL DO ALL PEOPLE STOPPER'':).

LOL...not to mention, that is the gun that I am most comfortable with. It was my first gun, and the one I grew up hunting with.

[SemperFi]

I never said I owned a Hipoint , I dont feel it would be an insult to own one though , because if it saved my life or my families lives I think I would advocate it! Obviously the nerd lab boys can find the cure for the +p+ as the main attraction in 9mm against the .45 with gelatin (jello vs steak!), but my money and protection relies on the .45 to get the job done ! Similiar to the fact that 7.62x39 is far superior to the .223 (but thats another argument)!

Ganstas on tv shoot sideways , but white arayan Nations dont(and niether do mexican mafia.sureno,border brothers ) , they practice daily in a wide arrangement of police firearms ! Dont get all caught up in the belief that the cops PRACTICE ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU!! Glockcop you might be the anomaly in your department , but for the most part cops dont practice , most cops shoot quarterly and they shoot anywhere from 50 to 80 rounds and there done , thats roughly 200-320 rounds per year , sure theres a few officers who regularly shoot , special ops shoot more , but departments dont have the money for the free ammo anymore , and when officers get time off its usually wasted in court ,so having a little time for family and shooting , not gonna happen! Just saying , and all gangs dont practice ,But I think if you quit reading the fbi bulletins you'll find they are inaccurate posted by the same lil nerds with the gelatin +p+ loads , local ganstas practice at the local ranges! Just like when you go to the gun show , who's there : Cops ,Military ,gang bangers!!!!

You dont think the hells angels,bandidos,outlaws ,pagans and sons of silence practice? They make bombs , you better quit watching csi !

[kyratshooter]

Perhaps, as moderator, I should point out that bigotry in its many disguises is not allowed. Yes, I happen to be a Hi-Point owner and I take exception to everyone's thinly veiled comments of "not a gun snob". Baloney. You're gun bigots. At least be man enough to stand up and admit it! I just hope the day never comes when I have to save your sorry hide with my 995 because your "whatever" failed. End rant.

I take exception to being re-bigoted as a gun bigot. Re-bigoting is against the forum rules along with preaching and politicking.

Some of my most cherished moments were spent with that broken HI Point teaching me what an uncontrolled tripple tap could do.

I have slicked over my Hi-Point with loving care! How else would I know the defects and atributes? I even have "custom sights" on it and did a real trigger job, polished the feed ramp and tweeked the magazines for top performance.

I also allow two Davis pistols and a Jennings to reside in my gun room, as long as they do not get near the gunsafe where the S&W sleeps. I allow the surplus guns to live in my shop and I mix the ammo boxes indiscriminately on the shelf, thought the surplus ammo is religated to the bottom shelf and must stay in the ammo boxes.

But their forum is really a trip. You have to love a bunch of guys that have one section for "Paint jobs".

[Rick]

But I didn't re-bigot you. I re-bigotted the gun bigots. Those bigots that profess to gun snobbery. Since you are a 995 aficionado I would have to re-re-bigot you negating the re-bigot.

[natertot]

It is correct that the faster a bullet goes, the less drop there is. A point being missed is that you guys are talking primarily pistol rounds. Think about this for a second. A majority of pistols have a maximum effective range of 50-60yds. A majority of shootings occur within 20yds and about half occur in 25 feet or less. How much drop are you really going to have in that distance regardless of what you carry? (your firearm profiency will be a bigger factor then what ammo you put in it) That being said, I carry a 9mm for a duty pistol. Nothing wrong with a .45, but why limit myself to 22 rounds of .45 when I can have 49 rounds of 9mm at my immediate disposal?

No matter what you carry, be very profiecient and comfortable with it. An old saying is "a .22 in the pocket is better than a .45 in the drawer".

Now, I do believe it is better to take ballistics in consideration with rifles for long range shots. They can make or break a clean kill very easliy, but not this close combat stuff. JMHO based upon my training.

[Beans]

I am trying to learn more about black powder maximization. I have a Hawken I'm trying to find the best load for, that doesn't waste powder but will take down a deer. That kind of thing is important to learn on this type of forum.
Perhaps the same could be said for reloaders. Not wasting your resources could be a good thing to learn here.
Do you really need to spend the dough on +P+ ammo when standard will do you as well? As long as it fires reliably, I don't see the point. Saves wear and tear on the pistol too not shooting high pressure ammo.
It just seems everyone is in a race for farther and faster. Farther, I can see. Faster, at supersonic speeds, is a moot point.


When i was shooting black powder. I was advised to lister for the "crack" of the shot. If it boomed or made any other type of noise the powder charge needed to be adjusted until the shot made a "crack" I did find out that each gun was different and used different amount of black powder to achive that "Crack" when it was fired.


Concerning the Hi Point. Would I purchase one
"NO"

Yes I have shot several hundred rounds out of one (9mm). Accuracy was OK recoil was low as it weighted about the same a small boat anchor.

If I found one laying on the ground and I needed a gun now I would pick it up, use it and be grateful.
Bigot, No! Opinionated, Yes! :p

[Beans]

It is correct that the faster a bullet goes, the less drop there is. A point being missed is that you guys are talking primarily pistol rounds. Think about this for a second. A majority of pistols have a maximum effective range of 50-60yds. JMHO based upon my training.

I humbly disagree. IMHO I beleive that most shooters have a maximum effective range, with a lot of practice, of 50-60 yards. Most of the shooters I shoot with shoot at a 12 inch square steel plate at either 75 or 100 yards and will hit 7-8 mimimum out of 10 shots over 90% of the time. they shoot everything from .22 to a .44 Mag including the .40 S&W and .45 ACP

If you don't practice shooting at those ranges you will never know what your maximum effective range is or could be.

But then again when I work as the range master/Safety officer at the local shooting range I have seen shooters that should have a maximum effective range of 5-7 yards.

An example.

I had a young ( to me) Soldier from the local base show up with a Colt SAA in 45 Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel. He was shooting factory ammo at a 15 yard target and was hitting high.

Being a SASS member and a shooter of the Colt SAA I explained to him that the Colt .45 when it was adopted by the US Army was required to be sighted in at 100 yards and have enough energy at that distance to completely penetrate a horse and strike a enemy on the other side. Also that Colt still made the SAA fixed sights to the same specs today.

He looked unsure of my information, but decided to try it.

He shot his last 6 rounds at the 12 inch steel plate at 100 yards. He hit it all 6 shots, without any help from me.

He had the biggest grin I have seen on anyone's face in a long time.

My only comment to him was "good shooting and that sure beats shooting at the 15 yard target doesn't it". He is now a believer.

His statement to me when he left the range was that he wanted to try that with his issue 9mm M9. just in case, when/if he went back to the sand box.

My reply was I hope you don't need that skill.

[Woodmaster750]

When I hunt with a pistol I use my SAA. 357 mag. By F.A.P. F.LLI PIETTA of ITALY. I use to use a Security Six 357mag. by Ruger. But I like the SAA. better. I feel most agree PRACTICE is what it takes no matter what weapon you use. SEMPER FI.

[kyratshooter]

Being a SASS member and a shooter of the Colt SAA I explained to him that the Colt .45 when it was adopted by the US Army was required to be sighted in at 100 yards and have enough energy at that distance to completely penetrate a horse and strike a enemy on the other side.

Were they riding miniature horses back then? Perhaps hit the midget Indian behind the miniature horse he was riding? It's not nice to pick on little people!

The 35 gn black powder load w/255gn slug does not have the ability to penetrate a horse and neither does the modern loading. You SASS loads are far less powerful.

Thompson and LaGrande did the tests a century ago. Check them out.
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/TLGR/tlgr.html

In their test the .45 LC would not penetrate a 1000 pound steer, about the same size as the average horse. They were shooting from a measured THREE FEET.

As an old Marine you should remember the targeting advice they gave on the qualification range for the 1911/.45acp.

At 25 yards aim for the center of the chest. At 50 yards aim for the head, you will hit the chest.

You new folks need to realize that you are dealing with shooters here. We own, and know well, almost anything you can talk mythology about on other forums. We also know that many of the charts and much of the information on the internet is wrong. They are accomplished as logrythems on computer and have no connection to real world experience.

[SemperFi]

At 25 yards aim for the center of the chest. At 50 yards aim for the head, you will hit the chest.



This philospohy is accurate because if you take into account the movement of the human body ........ Lets just say an M14 shooting at a moving target at 100 yards aiming for the head , will probably rip his shoulder off !!

[Beans]

Were they riding miniature horses back then? Perhaps hit the midget Indian behind the miniature horse he was riding? It's not nice to pick on little people!

The 35 gn black powder load w/255gn slug does not have the ability to penetrate a horse and neither does the modern loading. You SASS loads are far less powerful.

Thompson and LaGrande did the tests a century ago. Check them out.
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/TLGR/tlgr.html

In their test the .45 LC would not penetrate a 1000 pound steer, about the same size as the average horse. They were shooting from a measured THREE FEET.

As an old Marine you should remember the targeting advice they gave on the qualification range for the 1911/.45acp.

At 25 yards aim for the center of the chest. At 50 yards aim for the head, you will hit the chest.

You new folks need to realize that you are dealing with shooters here. We own, and know well, almost anything you can talk mythology about on other forums. We also know that many of the charts and much of the information on the internet is wrong. They are accomplished as logrythems on computer and have no connection to real world experience.

there is quite a bit of information about the orginial black lowder loading in the .45 Colt. It was loaded with 40 Grains of black powder.
If my informationis correct Thompson and LaGrande test used the loaded down verion of the .45 Colt Govt rounds

From just one of many sources
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_174_29/ai_n8968390/


For their short-lived Model 1909 (Colt New Service) .45 revolver they had reduced their smokeless .45 Colt service loads down to 725 fps with 250 grain bullets. I've got an original unopened box of .45 Colt Model 1909 loads that shows it. Why did they make their smokeless .45 Colt service loads so puny? My guess is they probably didn't want to take a chance on blowing up all those black powder era .45 Colt Single Action Army revolvers they still had floating around in inventory.

http://shakeypete.blogspot.com/2005/08/black-powder-and-45-colt-range-report.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/37903-cartridge-discussion-45-colt.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_54/ai_n25469320/


Concerning my .45 Colt SASS loading :laugh: I not sure they would pentrate anything.:lol:
SASS is a speed sport which for the most part that requires you to only make a noise on a steel target. My loads are 165 Gr bullet at 500 FPS :shifty::flowers:

Beans
SASS #316


At 25 yards aim for the center of the chest. At 50 yards aim for the head, you will hit the chest.

This was also the norm and taught to us Old LEO's on shooting the orginial PPC Course (1970's) when we used 148 Gr wadcutters in the .38 special revolvers

Patting myself on the back. I shot the second highest score, up to that time (1975) ever fired at the Missouri Highway Patrol Academy during my LEO training.

I was also ranked #32 on the Missouri Governors' top 100 list.

Now with an older age, a worn out body and dimming eyesight, Ah the memories.

[natertot]

I humbly disagree. IMHO I beleive that most shooters have a maximum effective range, with a lot of practice, of 50-60 yards. Most of the shooters I shoot with shoot at a 12 inch square steel plate at either 75 or 100 yards and will hit 7-8 mimimum out of 10 shots over 90% of the time. they shoot everything from .22 to a .44 Mag including the .40 S&W and .45 ACP

If you don't practice shooting at those ranges you will never know what your maximum effective range is or could be.

But then again when I work as the range master/Safety officer at the local shooting range I have seen shooters that should have a maximum effective range of 5-7 yards.

An example.

I had a young ( to me) Soldier from the local base show up with a Colt SAA in 45 Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel. He was shooting factory ammo at a 15 yard target and was hitting high.

Being a SASS member and a shooter of the Colt SAA I explained to him that the Colt .45 when it was adopted by the US Army was required to be sighted in at 100 yards and have enough energy at that distance to completely penetrate a horse and strike a enemy on the other side. Also that Colt still made the SAA fixed sights to the same specs today.

He looked unsure of my information, but decided to try it.

He shot his last 6 rounds at the 12 inch steel plate at 100 yards. He hit it all 6 shots, without any help from me.

He had the biggest grin I have seen on anyone's face in a long time.

My only comment to him was "good shooting and that sure beats shooting at the 15 yard target doesn't it". He is now a believer.

His statement to me when he left the range was that he wanted to try that with his issue 9mm M9. just in case, when/if he went back to the sand box.

My reply was I hope you don't need that skill.

Like I said, a majority of pistols, not all pistols, have a maximum effective range of 50-60yds. There are a few exceptions, and I don't count custom pistols or target pistols as they are seldom carried as a defensive firearm, but range workers rather. Also, your soldier hit that plate at a hundred yards, but could he do it while someone is throwing lead back at him? When the adreineline starts dumping and your heart gets pumping, it is a whole different ball game. Besides, an enemy won't stand there at 100yds and wait for you to get you sight alignment perfect either. Range time does help with firearms profiecency, but does not give any other combat type benefit.

[kyratshooter]

there is quite a bit of information about the orginial black lowder loading in the .45 Colt. It was loaded with 40 Grains of black powder.
If my informationis correct Thompson and LaGrande test used the loaded down verion of the .45 Colt Govt rounds

From just one of many sources
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_174_29/ai_n8968390/



http://shakeypete.blogspot.com/2005/08/black-powder-and-45-colt-range-report.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/37903-cartridge-discussion-45-colt.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_54/ai_n25469320/


Concerning my .45 Colt SASS loading :laugh: I not sure they would pentrate anything.:lol:
SASS is a speed sport which for the most part that requires you to only make a noise on a steel target. My loads are 165 Gr bullet at 500 FPS :shifty::flowers:

Beans
SASS #316



This was also the norm and taught to us Old LEO's on shooting the orginial PPC Course (1970's) when we used 148 Gr wadcutters in the .38 special revolvers

Patting myself on the back. I shot the second highest score, up to that time (1975) ever fired at the Missouri Highway Patrol Academy during my LEO training.

I was also ranked #32 on the Missouri Governors' top 100 list.

Now with an older age, a worn out body and dimming eyesight, Ah the memories.

You are quoting unofficial blogspots and forum posts as fact. Go to the test.

Yes, the Thompson LaGrande tests used reduced loads. The loads were reduced to simulate a strike at 75-100 yards when fired from 3 feet. We use the same standard when testing kelvar helmets and body armor today. They use a reduced 5.56 load to simulate a strike from 1000 yards, which is the contract standard.

They used the standard factory loading in the close range, 25-50 yard tests.

If you check the loads they listed in the study you will find that they were the standard loadings for each of the pistols at that time. They did not use the old BP load because the factories were no longer offering that load. The modern factory standard load was only increased in the last decade to 850 fps using slower burning powders they now feel are safe.

The factory BP loadings varried from 28-40 gns, due to the variations in the powders. All black powder is/was not equil. And yes, they got 1,000fps from a 12" barrel, not the normal 4"-8" pistol, which averaged 750-950 depending on the barrel length.

As for the good old days? We all had good old days.

I got my eyes fixed and still have them. Modern surgery is more amazing than modern firearms.

[hunter63]

........But in this forum fortunately balistics arent the key, the key is for self reliance and self defense ! Which makes balistics unimportant (to an extent) !

At the end of the day seems we have comfirmed this statement? (except the horses and little people of course?)

[lucznik]

To go back to the original poster's premise that ballistics are not important, well... I must respectfully disagree.

A clear understanding of both ballistics and reloading principles is what has allowed me to develop a load that makes my 4" S&W 686+ Mountain Gun in .357 Magnum legal to use for hunting big game in my state. This, in turn, has allowed me to take three big game animals in the last two years with that gun thus turning theory into actual practice. I'll be using that same gun to take (hopefully) another 2 -3 three big game animals this year.

This practice makes me more familiar and confident in this gun and its (and my) abilities. As an aside, I know - again from actual first-hand experience - that this gun is literally deadly accurate well beyond 100 yards. Most people I know don't have any real experience killing anything bigger than a ground squirrel with their pistols - regardless of caliber. In fact, the total extent of most people's experience is "killing" paper sillouettes on the range. They think they know that their .22 LR is an "ultimate" survival caliber and will kill big game because they've read something to that effect on the internet or maybe they have a Grandpa or Great-Grandpa that said they had done it "back in the day" but, they've never actually done it themselves. So too with the 9mm, .45, etcetera ad nauseam. I, on the other hand, know that this gun will keep me well fed because it already has.

Sure, in a SHTF situation I would shoot whatever I had on hand (which almost assuredly would be good handloads specifically designed for making meat because that's all I keep on hand to shoot out of this gun) but understanding ballistics was what made it possible to actually put theory to the test. In short; no knowledge is ever unimportant.

[glockcop]

I never said I owned a Hipoint , I dont feel it would be an insult to own one though , because if it saved my life or my families lives I think I would advocate it! Obviously the nerd lab boys can find the cure for the +p+ as the main attraction in 9mm against the .45 with gelatin (jello vs steak!), but my money and protection relies on the .45 to get the job done ! Similiar to the fact that 7.62x39 is far superior to the .223 (but thats another argument)!

Ganstas on tv shoot sideways , but white arayan Nations dont(and niether do mexican mafia.sureno,border brothers ) , they practice daily in a wide arrangement of police firearms ! Dont get all caught up in the belief that the cops PRACTICE ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU!! Glockcop you might be the anomaly in your department , but for the most part cops dont practice , most cops shoot quarterly and they shoot anywhere from 50 to 80 rounds and there done , thats roughly 200-320 rounds per year , sure theres a few officers who regularly shoot , special ops shoot more , but departments dont have the money for the free ammo anymore , and when officers get time off its usually wasted in court ,so having a little time for family and shooting , not gonna happen! Just saying , and all gangs dont practice ,But I think if you quit reading the fbi bulletins you'll find they are inaccurate posted by the same lil nerds with the gelatin +p+ loads , local ganstas practice at the local ranges! Just like when you go to the gun show , who's there : Cops ,Military ,gang bangers!!!!

You dont think the hells angels,bandidos,outlaws ,pagans and sons of silence practice? They make bombs , you better quit watching csi !

I have been to public ranges all over Louisiana, Mississipi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, North Carolina, Texas, Illinoise, California, and New Mexico but do not recall seeing many bangers, motorcycle patches, shaved tatooed heads, or any of the other mysticals mentioned running drills there. I have not always been a "Gold Badge" and carried a silver one for a loooong time. I have interviewed enough homicide suspects to practically fill the Super Dome (gross exaggeration but you get it, Hahaha!). I have NEVER had a perp say nor have I discovered that they practice pistolry to hone their deadly craft. Yes there are criminals out there that get their range time but as I have said, it's not the rule but the exception. But keep in mind that I'm just one cop with "ONLY" about 18 years on the job. I could just be terribly out of the loop :). To clear up another point, cops do not spend most of their free time in court and are very much encourage to shoot often on the department's dime. There are exceptions though. You see, for the most part, there are these old guys wearing gold badges that make department policies. These old guys know that ammo cost alot less than civil litigation. This also goes for the departments I regulary deal with and that is more than just a few. I know this to be fact because I often get contacted by outside agencies for SWAT and general firearms training purposes. To address another fine point, .....someone here really should take to task of advising the FBI and the Department of Justice that their National Crime Stats are amazing delusions and that their studies of ballistic forensics were too ineptly executed to be taken seriously. How did those poor fools ever survive before this forum? Hahaha! Sir Isaac Newton may also be surprised to learn that his laws of physics do not apply to ballistic gel nor to ballistic tables. Man, that Newton guy sure was an idiot. Why do so many smart people like NASA and Ballistic Missile engineers listen to this guy? Bunch of dumb @sses. Hehehe. Don't get all bent up, just poking a lil fun at ya.

P.S., Several years ago, The United States Supreme Court made it clear that it is not the obligation of the police to protect every citizen all the time because this is impractical due to the laws of numbers and ratios. So common sense dictates that you should have the ability to protect yourself. Therefore please don't imply that the police are falling down on the job if you happen to get lead in the sphincter. Also, I NEVER watch that CSI stuff. Total fantasy. I like to live in the real world. But I do take breaks to come here :).

[glockcop]

Perhaps, as moderator, I should point out that bigotry in its many disguises is not allowed. Yes, I happen to be a Hi-Point owner and I take exception to everyone's thinly veiled comments of "not a gun snob". Baloney. You're gun bigots. At least be man enough to stand up and admit it! I just hope the day never comes when I have to save your sorry hide with my 995 because your "whatever" failed. End rant.

You got me......"Hello, my name is glockcop and I'm a gun bigot....it has been 10 years since I bought a crappy gun.....clap,clap,clap,clap,clap" :). Just joking. I am sorry if I insulted your taste. High Point just ain't for me. Please understand that you have my full encouragement to save my @ss with your High Point if need arise one day. Thanks in advanced.

[SemperFi]

Its all good glockcop! Then again how many cancer patients do you see walking around everyday? How many drug addicts do you see , the ranges can be filled with ganstas ,because even these losers know that if they walk into a range they have to look the part of joe citizen ,they only look like idiots when there together ! Stereotyping , bikers and gangbangers into a specific group is dangerous , most of each group has learned that in order to function in the free world without cops you need to assimilate with the masses , you live in LA , im sure you know the Galloping Goose and the Bandidos live there , most of them have "real" jobs and are to some extent law abiding , there leaders dont want or need all "Outlaws" ,if they had that they'd be out of business quick because law enforcement can be unforgiving when they screw up and they know it!

I dont want to get into an argument with you about this though , your a great cop and thats all that matters I did my time , Im very thankful if departments have opened the door to shooting more , I dont know how they can , with ever shrinking budgets and more and more "hand picked" management (some directly from the academy) , but if they are good they need to keep up !

Now as far as ballistics go , the premise isnt to challenge you guys with facts from the fbi or the nation isntitute of whatever geletin tests are fine , but unless you are " L O A D I N G" yourself does it really matter , if I buy ammo ,it for a specific purpose to stop the bad guy and maybe to practice with (practice rounds can kill as well,I want that) , do I carry certain round for certain guns , sure I do , but the fact is the more ammo I have the better off Ill be in the long run , Im not talking zombies either and Im not a disgruntles ex Marine , Ex cop either , but I believe certain things should be happening that are not , and this country is going down the drain I for one will not expect the law to protect me! I will take that into my own hands!

[glockcop]

Semperfi: " I for one will not expect the law to protect me! I will take that into my own hands! ".....As every good law abiding citizen should do IMO. The hands on approach you have chosen to take is best. I was just fooling with you a bit in my post. It's all good. You are also most correct in saying that not all members of organized criminal gangs "look" the part. But most of these members feel they have earned their right and proudly display their loyalties as often as possible. Exceptions do exist. There was a time when an ape was required to ALWAYS wear his patch and rocker. Not any longer. With authorization/vote from their Charter, these guys are able sidestep that club policy in order to blend in with the rest of the sheople. Likewise some ''posse'' families do not require their colors be flown at all times anymore not to alert L.E. Coyotes are no longer required to fully button their plaid shirts for similar reasons. The Banshees M.C. do not have to wear a black bandanna at all times in public anymore. And on and on. All this is well and good but these are still the exception. We all (citizens too) have to be on our toes out there. Carrying +P+ ammo in your 9mm or .45 might help to :). Check your "six" often.

[lucznik]

Now as far as ballistics go... unless you are " L O A D I N G" yourself does it really matter... do I carry certain round for certain guns , sure I do

In this one "sentence" you have both presented and then immediately contraticted your main premise. You carry "certain rounds for certain guns" so; what is it that brought you to the conclusion that a particular round is ideal for whichever particular gun? It has to be at least a rudimentary understanding of the ballistics involved with that round. Even the choice of what gun/caliber to buy/carry involves some consideration of the ballistic properties of the cartridge and what you think it will do for you (desired size of the hole to be punched, "knock down power," ability to shoot "way out there," or whatever).

Any given person's logic therein may or may not be sound but, it is still based on the consideration (even if erroneous) of ballistic properties.

[SemperFi]

lucznik , I either carry FMJ ,or JHP , not any particular rounds , at my bedside are JHP in my .40SW (I cant see that good at night) ,I intend to spray the room ! In my 45 ACP is FMJ ! In my .44 Mag and my .357 Mag , JHP , in my Glock 22 ,JHP (the first gun isnt a glock) ,many of these rounds have specific funtion ,now dont get all bunched up ,Glockcop is right , if Im running around the streets I want to carry the most bang for the buck if Im carrying a 9 (it will be makarov only for me,but if its a luger) +p+ , I want to not only hit the suspect but I also want the bullet to go through him , bone and all and if it takes 15 extra rounds to get him to stop so be it!Ive dealt with morons on pcp , I dont care what rounds you shoot these nuts with they aint going down till its time!

[Rick]

I am sorry if I insulted your taste.

You, sir, assume I have taste...wait a minute...that didn't come out right.

[glockcop]

You, sir, assume I have taste...wait a minute...that didn't come out right.

My mistake...It won't happen again :).

[yellowcab]

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lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)