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Rick
08-09-2011, 12:26 PM
On Aug. 9, 1945, three days after the bombing of Hiroshima, the United States dropped a second atomic bomb on the city of Nagasaki. I completely spaced out on the Aug. 6 date but I'm glad I remembered today.

"Fat Man" was dropped from the B-29 Bockscar and exploded at an altitude of 1650 feet. Some 74,000 were killed including 8 American POWs. Another 75,000 died from the after affects.

Please take a moment and remember all those killed in both cities and let us hope that such an event never occurs again. You might take a moment as well and remember all those men and women that sacrificed so much for us to end the terrible Pacific campaign.
Winter
08-09-2011, 12:48 PM
I'll use this as a chance to remember all the Grandpa's who may not have come home if we hadn't nuked the Japanese.
hunter63
08-09-2011, 01:02 PM
Good reminder, thanks........
Old GI
08-09-2011, 01:48 PM
I am certain that my Father was one of those guys. He was on Okinawa getting ready for the invasion of the mainland.
Rick
08-09-2011, 02:15 PM
I understand your feelings with regard to the event and what might have been. Still, it was not the fault of women and children that died. I don't mean this to be a treatise on the virtues or evils in the use of the atomic bomb. I'm merely recognizing the event's historical importance and the fact the thousands died as its result. That has to be a terrible thing in anyone's book.
crashdive123
08-09-2011, 02:22 PM
Good reminder, and yes war should be a terrible thing for everybody. If it were, there would be much less of it.
BENESSE
08-09-2011, 03:24 PM
It was a terrible thing...and it is a terrible thing no matter how or where it happens.
There are a lot of things in this life that aren't preventable...higher power and all that, but killing each other isn't one of them. Such a waste.
your_comforting_company
08-11-2011, 06:39 AM
It's interesting to me that we talk of "ending all wars" but we still buy our kids little green army men and GI Joe's to play with. We raise them on pretend war and then we wonder why there is so much of it.

"Bomb blast brings the building crashing to the floor; hear the laughter as the children play war" -Dave Matthews

May their souls rest in peace and remain a lesson for future generations of how NOT to resolve conflicts. My Grandpa was also involved in that war. It's amazing the man is alive today, considering his long career in the military, and involvement in so many wars. Makes me think of the generations of brilliant minds that were lost in the bombings. If my Grandpa hadn't survived, I wouldn't be here today. 149,000 just gone. How many of those lost had the potential to change the world?
I have my own views on this matter, which don't really fit the discussion. Genocide is not conflict resolution and I have to say that I am NOT proud of my country for it. I am thankful for those that serve to protect our freedoms and way of life.
Thank You All
Rick
08-11-2011, 07:16 AM
I think it's hard to make a decision on the use of any large scale weapon outside the context of the time period and lacking the information the users had at the time it was deployed.
JPGreco
08-12-2011, 10:33 PM
It is an interesting talking point in the modern era. I do not condemn the US for it's actions. In that era, to blow up a single building, you had to drop 1000 bombs as the plane flew over head and you still had to hope you hit it. Mass destruction weapons and civilian targets were the way of the war. I do question the necessity of dropping the second bomb so shortly after without issuing an ultimatum before hand. It seems like the first worked and the country is still shocked so lets hit em again. That is one thing I do wonder about, the reasoning for the second one. I would think the first would have been enough to end the pacific theatre.

What I am ashame of though is that in all the years, no US diplomat has attended the memorial services in Japan. I'm not saying that we owe an apology or anything like that, but just to be there to remember the souls that were lost and to acknowledge symbolically by being there that it was our actions that took a lot of innocent lives on those days.
hossthehermit
08-13-2011, 05:32 AM
Yes, someone DID attend this year's ceremony.

"James Zumwalt, deputy chief of the U.S. embassy in Tokyo, offered a wreath of flowers to Japan's Prime Minister Naoto Kan at the ceremony."
crashdive123
08-13-2011, 06:24 AM
2010 was the first year that the United States, France and England sent "officials" to attend the ceremonies at Hiroshima.
Winter
08-13-2011, 02:12 PM
"From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture (such as the view that those enemy soldiers who surrender while still able to resist were criminals). "
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

150,000 dead Japanese? Boo hoo.
Rick
08-13-2011, 03:02 PM
I think you missed the entire point. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has nothing to do with the events of WWII. The thread simply commemorates a historical point in time that resulted in the death of tens of thousands of individuals. I doubt seriously if one woman on one child killed in the bombings had anything to do with the genocide unleashed on China. I doubt they had anything to do with the rape of Nanking or any of the other horrible atrocities that occurred. It's like saying your mother had responsibility for My Lay. It's apples and oranges.
Winter
08-13-2011, 05:43 PM
It seems the point is removing the context of "why".

If we ignore what the nazi's did than the execution of those convicted at Nuremberg is murder.

You can't remove context and retain understanding. That's my point.
Rick
08-13-2011, 06:15 PM
I can. That's my point. I can completely abhor what war time Japan accomplished, it's aggression, it's atrocities and, worse, it's lack of morality. At the same time I can feel sympathy for civilians caught up in the circumstances and having to pay the ultimate price. It's no different for me if you wish to speak about the fire bombings of Tokyo, Dresden or the terror attacks unleashed on London. Civil causalities are not part of warfare. They are a part of inhumanity. I have no feelings for the thousands of Japanese that died on islands across the Pacific or in its waters as part of the Navy. That's a choice they made. Civilians, from any nation, don't have a choice.
hossthehermit
08-13-2011, 07:19 PM
"From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture (such as the view that those enemy soldiers who surrender while still able to resist were criminals). "
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

150,000 dead Japanese? Boo hoo.

If those however many "probably murdered" millions had lived, just imagine how many would be infesting the planet today
Winter
08-13-2011, 09:55 PM
Ok Rick. We all have our way of looking at the world.

Take Hoss for instance. The more dead the better for him I guess.

I have a tendency to view things as a scale. Take an event in it's entirety and see where the balance point is. I bounce that balance, or lack of, off historical examples and I form my opinions based on that.

I do have an issue with the word "humane" and it's derivatives.

Humans are and always have been brutal and greedy, yet, humane does not mean "relating to human behavior" or anything even close to that.

It's a fantasy word. IMO.

This quote is human.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
— Jack Handey
Rick
08-13-2011, 10:31 PM
I can agree with that. Especially that quote. All too true as inhumane as it sounds. :innocent:
kyratshooter
08-13-2011, 11:17 PM
We are and were insulated from the happenings of WW2. We did not fight a war on our own soil and do not have the necessary context to judge.

The only thing that comes near is that invasion of the devil's horde in the War of Northern Aggression who raped and pillaged and laid waste the fair land they had no right to look upon and beset us with the social and political ills we now suffer. We still have lingering wounds from that 150 year ended comflict and we did not come near the numbers of civilian casulties suffered in WW2.

1 million dead civilians in Leningrad
40,000 dead civilians in one day in Stalingrad
13.5 MILLION dead Soviet Citizens
Coventry England wiped off the map
London blitzed
Every major city in England bombed with 300,000 civilian dead.
400,000 dead from starvation in Norway in 1944

The 6,000,000 gassed in the camps

60,000,000 casulties total with almost half civilian.

Ask them if stopping the war with a single hit against an agressor enemy was "humane".

Why do we look at this act as a negitive?

How many Japaneese civilian lives did the two atomic bombs save? How many Japaneese civilians would have died in the inevitable invasion?

The next step in Hitler's rocket program was to reach NYC with an atomic bomb. Perhaps if that had happened we would not inflict such unnecessary guilt on ourselves.
Rick
08-14-2011, 07:49 AM
The thread wasn't suppose to be looked at good or bad. It was just commemorating an event in history.
randyt
08-14-2011, 09:07 AM
As far as I'm concerned it was a "bad" event created by the likes of but not limited to hitler, stalin, mussolini and the emperor of japan.




I threw stalin in there due to the murders he committed during his reign. I reckon during the war the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" came to bear.
BENESSE
08-14-2011, 12:24 PM
I threw stalin in there due to the murders he committed during his reign. I reckon during the war the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" came to bear.

Still applies.
I recon we haven't learned squat from history.
Rick
08-14-2011, 12:51 PM
Said another way, better a devil you know than a devil you don't know.
BENESSE
08-14-2011, 01:17 PM
Said another way, better a devil you know than a devil you don't know.

A devil is a devil.
A devil you think you know today will come back and bite you in the a$$ tomorrow.
Bin Laden, case in point.
Rick
08-14-2011, 01:38 PM
Oh, gosh. We've played that game soooooo many times. Noriega, Pinochet, Qaddafi, Trujillo,
randyt
08-14-2011, 02:12 PM
keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
BENESSE
08-14-2011, 04:33 PM
Yes we've played the game over and over again. One would think we'd get tired...learn...move on.
But no...not us. We're gonna drive it right into the ground and then wonder what happened.
If I didn't feel personally affected, I'd be amused.
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yellowcab
12-13-2025, 07:23 PM
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