S&P Downgrades U.S. Debt

[bobzilla]

This could get ugly Monday morning,they announced after the markets closed!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/sandp-considering-first-downgrade-of-us-credit-rating/2011/08/05/gIQAqKeIxI_story.html

[kyratshooter]

They are actually acting like they did not expect it!

Even in the midst of the negotiations every analyist was screaming that the cuts were too shallow and a balanced budget ammendment was going to be necessary to preserve the rating.

[Wheels]

Term limits

[Blasfemo]

They are actually acting like they did not expect it!



maybe they didnt, i mean its like AAA since 1917 so only now the bells ring?? this company's are a disgrace they produce nothing but opinion and dont even take responsibility for what the call ratings, if you try to make them responsible they say "hell we just rated not our fault if markets go on fire.

[Rick]

In some respects this is a good thing. It puts more pressure on our legislators to move forward and do something positive about our debt. Anyone not living under a rock had to know this one was going to happen.

[BENESSE]

The operative words from the article:
"...dealing a symbolic blow to the world’s economic superpower..."

After it's all said and done, more has been said than done. Now get back to whatever you've been doing NOthing's gonna change.

[Pal334]

I agree with "B". After a day or so of media saying "the sky is falling" and the folks on the stock exchange making artificial profits, all will be back to "normal". As one commentator said , the world has no other choices but to invest in the USA. Now if if the elected officials could be convinced to actually do their jobs, things would certainly get better.

[sushidog]

The operative words from the article:
"...dealing a symbolic blow to the world’s economic superpower..."

After it's all said and done, more has been said than done. Now get back to whatever you've been doing NOthing's gonna change.

Except a stock market crash and interest rates shooting up -which will force businesses to lay off even more people so they have enough capital to service their growing debt. And we're not even talking about mortgage rates, car loans and credit card rates going up - that's just a given. If the govt. pays more for their money, banks will pay more for theirs, and we will pay more for ours. Just wait and see what happens to the market tomorrow! When you are living on the edge, it only takes one card to fall for the whole house to topple (and our house is now so huge, it's on a planetary scale.) The financial pressure overseas will likely trigger more anti-USA protests, riots and perhaps even wars. Since our gavernment is at the limit of what it can borrow it will eventually be forced to monitize the debt to pay the additional interest, causing severe (hyper?) inflation (basically stealing the money in your savings and retirement accounts -even future social security payments, wages, etc.) Other than that, nothing important will happen. Go back to watching TV, text messaging, visiting social networking sites and playing video games - the new opium of the masses. These are not the droids you are looking for. (waves Jedi hand) Move along, move along.

Chip

[BENESSE]

Go back to watching TV, text messaging, visiting social networking sites and playing video games - the new opium of the masses. These are not the droids you are looking for. (waves Jedi hand) Move along, move along.
Chip

You might have me confused with those you'd like to tell off but can't. I know it's convenient and all, but I hate to disappoint you...I couldn't be further from all that if I really tried.
Sorry.

[sushidog]

You might have me confused with those you'd like to tell off but can't. I know it's convenient and all, but I hate to disappoint you...I couldn't be further from all that if I really tried.
Sorry.

No offense intended. I was speaking generically. Please don't take it personally. Usually the folks who stick their heads in the sand don't read or post on boards like this. We're all in this together and it is really starting to look bad, so we need to stick together more now than ever.

Chip

Chip

[LongHuntre]

I wish i had a little stand on Wall Street Selling "NETS" on Monday morning......... Jump, Jump, rich...oh i mean poor Wall Street Suits....Jump...LOL

[hossthehermit]

Looks like another bailout on the way.

[crashdive123]

I wish i had a little stand on Wall Street Selling "NETS" on Monday morning......... Jump, Jump, rich...oh i mean poor Wall Street Suits....Jump...LOL

Class or wealth envy is kind of poor form IMO. Just as hoping all of the retirement plans that have a component of the market in them fail, causing seniors to lose their retirements and having to struggle even more to make ends meet. The market futures are down a couple of hundred points, so there will be a sell off. The markets will survive though. If I read your post wrong - my apologies.

[kyratshooter]

Looks like another bailout on the way.

This credit downgrade is intended to stop another bailout. The last bailout was done with the borrowed money that has caused this downgrade.

[sushidog]

I wonder how my bank would feel if I told them I wanted an unsecured loan to pay off the interest on my credit cards, because I didn't have enough income (nor did I expect to get any more income) to pay all my bills, including the payments on the new loan I'm proposing? Do you think they'd give me the loan, or would they laugh their butts off as they booted me out the door? What kind of interest rate do you think I'd get if I visited Guido, the local loan shark? I think even he would have the good sense not to extend me any more credit. After all, Guido just breaks legs as a last resort. Unlike our nation's creditors, he at least has the common sense not to make a loan knowing up front he has almost no chance of getting repaid.

It doesn't matter how high they raise the nation's debt limit, who in their right mind is going to continue to loan us money when it's obvious that we will never be able to repay the debt? If (I truly believe when, but I'm giving us the benefit of the doubt) we do eventually default, what recourse will these foreign creditors have, considering the size and scope of our defences (to include out strategic nuclear arsenal) if we simply tell them to kiss off (or pay them with worthless, hyper-inflated dollars, which is the same thing)?

Chip

[Rick]

Chip, you seem to be missing the financial point in this. The U.S. is good to pay back the interest on loans for a decade or so even if they do nothing. Why on earth would I ever care if you pay the principle back to me as long as you keep paying me the interest? You can just pay me interest forever and ever for all I care. If you do that I'll make a ton more money off of you. See? I'd continue to invest in the U.S. First, it's the only game in town. Second, just because the S&P downgraded that doesn't really mean squat. There are other credit rating organizations out there, like Moody's, that investors look at. Finally, the S&P downrating had a lot less to do with the financial situation and a lot more to do with the political risk. You can read their full report here: http://www.standardandpoors.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobheadername3=MDT-Type&blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobheadervalue2=inline%3B+filename%3DUS_Downgrade d_AA%2B.pdf&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobheadername1=content-type&blobwhere=1243942957443&blobheadervalue3=UTF-8

[Pal334]

Rick hit it on the nose. The USA is the only game in town for a safe secure investment. What are the alternatives: Algeria? Egypt? Saudi Arabia?, India? Or most laughably France or the Former Sviet Union? Agreed, the house needs to be cleaned up and put in order, but it is the only game in town (mmm where have I heard that before?:) )

[Rick]

Here's a really good read on the current status. http://budgeting-investing.ameriprise.com/planning-and-budgeting/financial-analysis/market-update/2011-08-08.asp

[sushidog]

I get what you all are saying, however you assume that a dollar invested today will be worth roughly a dollar tomorrow. I don't believe this for a minute. I don't believe that the interest will even make up for the inflation rate. If I had a ton of money to invest I certainly wouldn't put it in any other currency cause they are indeed as bad or worse than we are. I'd buy commodities (food) or precious metals at this point. If a miracle happens and we don't have hyperinflation, I still wouldn't buy any US debt. Govt figures peg the "official" BS inflation rate at 3.56% (that's if we don't count food, fuel or any of the other things we need to survive on a daily basis) compare that to the 5yr bond rate which is only 1.11% while the 10 yr yield is still only 2.37%. Who's going to lose money for 10 years (the difference between inflation and yield) when there are so many other options? BTW did you know that gold broke 1700/ounce today? I consider gold a break-even, worst case scenario proposition for EOTWAWKI scenarios, not an investment vehicle - but it looks like gold and silver is out performing most other investments these days. Still many investors continue on the same track they have always been on, hoping for the best inspite of knowing that a train wreck is just around the bend.

And this is a best case scenario. The real threat comes from hyperinflation which will occur if interest rates rise to past levels and we can't afford to pay even our current interest payments without printing money out of thin air. Think it can't happen here, in 2008 Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke admitted the central bank created $1.3 trillion out of thin air to buy mortgage backed securities! So its already begun!

We have already paid $412 billion dollars so far this year in interest payments alone (to put it into perspective, our total govt revenue is just $200 billion a month)- and the year is not even over yet! If our credit rating gets downgraded yet again (as threatened) and it starts costing more and more interest on the same debt (which is certain to grow to outrageous levels as we can't seem to balance our budget, but keep incurring new debt just to pay the interest on the old debt.) I guess it's just me, cause this doesn't make any sense at all - unless you actually want to destroy the country financially. What if we start seeing double digit inflation and double digit interest rates (like we did in the early 80's under Jimmy Carter?) If that happens we're toast, cause the interest on our debt will easily exceed our total revenues at today's rate - and revenues will certainly drop as no one will be able to borrow money to even operate their business (forget about expansion) - so we'll see a huge round of business failures and even higher unemployment (and unemployment compensation checks bleeding us dry even faster.) Get the picture? And remember, we're just taking about Jimmy Carter level inflation, not Weimar Republic hyperinflation! Think hyperinflation can't happen here? Neither did the people of: Angola, Argentina, Austria, Bolivia, Bosnia, Brazil, Bulgaria, China, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Israel, Mexico, North Korea, Nicaragua, Peru, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Zaire and finally Zimbabwe (and I left out a few) who all suffered hyperinflation where everyone lost everything.

In 2008 Zimbabwe had 98% inflation per day - and that was far from the worst in the above group! Still think we can't join the club? We're going down the exact same path that most of these did right now. The real difference is that Europe can suck it up when Greece goes belly up, to keep the Greeks from starving, but there's no one - not even China - who have the resources to bail us out (even if they were disposed to do so) And if they ever did "offer us their assistance," do you still think we'd still be free after their "help?" It's just a matter of time. That's why I say stock up on beens and bullets, boys, while you can. I successfully predicted the tech bubble, the housing bubble and started a precious metal investment club trying to convince people of the benefits of buying Gold when it was under $300/ounce in 2000 and 2001 - so I do have a track record. I sure hope I'm wrong this time, but I doubt it. I can't predict when the crash will occur, but if I were a betting man, it would be strategically timed before the election of 2012, maybe much sooner from the looks of things.

BTW has anyone checked the stock market today? I sure hate being right.

Chip

[Rick]

Well, sorry, but you aren't. Not completely.
Govt figures peg the "official" BS inflation rate at 3.56% (that's if we don't count food, fuel or any of the other things we need to survive on a daily basis) Of course it does. It's called the Consumer Price Index (CPI). But you have to be careful in what numbers you are looking at. There is also the Producer Price Index (PPI) along with a few others. The CPI can be seasonally adjusted or not. It depends on what you are trying to capture. Just looking at a set of numbers doesn't do you any good unless you know what those numbers are representing. However, when the BLS talks about inflation they generally use the CPI, which does take into account the items you listed. It should state in the numbers whether or not it is seasonally adjusted. The current fear is not hyperinflation, which I've posted on many times. It's deflation, which could lead to stagnation. You can't compare the U.S. economy to Zimbabwe for cryin' out loud. It's apples and cinder blocks. And I remember all too well how the Hunt Brothers manipulated the Silver Market in the '70s and how the U.S. government stripped the price of gold in the 30s for me to feel any safety in precious metals. As to the stock market, that's sorta how it works. If you did any reading at all you'd see that one of the safe haven's investor are moving to are U.S. Treasuries. These are not mindless orbs. They are highly educated and experience people that know how to make money. If they thought for a moment that U.S. Treasuries were a bad investment they wouldn't go there. This is one more much ado about nothing. There is no collapse coming. I said it in 1980. I said it in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and my broken record is still playing. Watch the stock market recover this week. Today was the mad rush that always gets set off when something negative gets published. Nothing more. Sorry, but I have to access the forum via tunnel and I can't separate paragraphs. They all just run together. Arrrgh!

[kyratshooter]

In my 61 years I have found one certainty in the stock market.

If you predict it will go down, you will be right.

If you predict it will go up you will also be right.

Eventually.

I predict a period of downturn with a slow return to a bull market. Just like I did last week/month/year. Eventually I will be right.

If you study the entire economic history you find that hording PM is not the answer either.

As soon as hyperinflation strikes most economies instantly go on a barter system until new money is printed and issued to stabalize the situation.

http://www.the-privateer.com/1933-gold-confiscation.html

Hyperinflation can also be instantly stabalized by issuing the above order and going on the gold standard. Guess who gets to set the price they pay the individuals for their gold? If you guessed the spot market you guessed wrong.

Gold is now the speculative bubble product to be burst when the government fixes its price once again. If everyone that "owned gold" had real metal in their hands the price would not be this inflated. Most of it is ponzi scheme certificates.

When it hits $2000 oz. mine is gone. I need a new vehicle.

[Rick]

You're pretty right on all accounts. They don't call it the London Gold Fix for nothing. (chuckle). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_fixing

I envision these crusty old men sitting in leather chairs smoking an Altidas Behike and drinking a 1926 Macallan scotch.

"Oh, God. Look at the time, Robert. It appears we need to fix the price again."
"Why? Is it broken"
Chuckles throughout the room.
"I say, what's a good number that will get you blood flowing"?
Long puff on cigar. "Hmm. Shall we say $1700 an ounce?"
"Good show. Let's!"

[kyratshooter]

The real trick is that in almost every case they fix the price at a low rate, force buy it all up, then raise the value of what the government holds and stabolize the currency at that rate. Rosevelt bought everything at $20 and hiked the value to $30, then $35 for the reserve supply.

I have been doing some advising lately myself. I have been advising all my friends that have gold hordes to have everything they own cast into simple jewelry; rings, pins, broaches.

They will get the bullion, they will get the coins, they have never touched jewelry, their wives would kill them.

The most amazing part of you link regards the present state of inflation, which we have undergone since 1980 when one oz was worth $850 ($2400 in today's dollars). Of course it went from $100 to $800 in a single year. Wern't the Carter years great?

[Rick]

You are a seriously courageous man to even attempt to make jewelry that a wife would like. After a couple of hideous attempts to buy my wife jewelry in our "early" years. I gave up and just handed her the card and said surprise me. Perhaps if you just told the women to hang on to the bullion and after everything settles out she can decide what she wants it made into. Let's see J. Edgar try to pry that out of their hands. They would be like a pit bull on steroids.

I had invested heavily in peanuts during the Carter Administration. I have to confess that I lost my nuts when I cashed them in for Billy Bear.

[randyt]

In the stock market is 10 percent about the best a conservative investor can achieve? I talking as a average through ups and downs over time, looking at the big picture etc. ,etc.

[kyratshooter]

A jeweler will gladly make your bullion into attractive rings and bobbles at a very low cost if you are providing the bullion. A small price for the insurance of being able to keep the stuff.

I suppose you could do the Silas Marner thing and hide it under the floor, take it out and count it nightly, then do your ten years in jail and loss of goods when they finally catch you. A family just lost a horde their grandad stashed back in '33. Several gold Double Eagles that were not supposed to exist in a safe deposit box in Texas. It was confiscated without recompensation by our fine government.

I was talking to another fellow today who tried to sell a portion of his reserve at the current rate. He can find no takers. They are selling at $1700 but they are not buying at $1700. If the local PM dealers will not take it why would Abdul Iscombaba at the corner store take it.

How much groceries can you buy for $1700. I wonder how many people have ? ounces of bullion certificates, are paying the operation they bought from to "store" their bullion, but have empty shelves in the pantry.

[Rick]

Randy - Your level of risk tolerance pretty much dictates how much you can make in an average market. However, you should be able to achieve at least a 10% return and that's not playing with a lot of risk. That's with a solid mutual stock portfolio with a mix of treasuries. about a 60/40 split.

When I was in my 40s my strategy was fairly high risk. I figured if I lost it all I still had time to make it back. Today, I'm a little more cautious because I'm a bit older. I have some assets that turned much more than 15% over the last year. I have some that didn't.

Chip was certainly right about investing in certificates. If you can't beat inflation then why are you investing in them? Savings accounts are the same.

Everyone has to choose what they feel comfortable in investing in. Hopefully, they are taking the time to really do some serious investigation to educate themselves about whatever it is they choose to invest in whether it's rental property, precious metals, firearms, stocks and bonds, old cars or used toilet paper. You can make a bundle is just about anything if you invest in it intelligently. You can loose a bundle in just about anything if you aren't careful. You have to be willing to loose whatever you invest and realize that you certainly could. But some folks invest in cigarettes and beer and when twilight reaches them all they'll have are empty cans and cellophane. If you've done your homework and invested in something that actually appreciates over time then you stand the chance of being able to enjoy that latter part of your life and not worry about whether your next social security check is going to by paid.

[randyt]

thanks for the info Rick

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Randy - Your level of risk tolerance pretty much dictates how much you can make in an average market. However, you should be able to achieve at least a 10% return and that's not playing with a lot of risk. That's with a solid mutual stock portfolio with a mix of treasuries. about a 60/40 split. When I was in my 40s my strategy was fairly high risk. I figured if I lost it all I still had time to make it back. Today, I'm a little more cautious because I'm a bit older. I have some assets that turned much more than 15% over the last year. I have some that didn't. Chip was certainly right about investing in certificates. If you can't beat inflation then why are you investing in them? Savings accounts are the same. Everyone has to choose what they feel comfortable in investing in. Hopefully, they are taking the time to really do some serious investigation to educate themselves about whatever it is they choose to invest in whether it's rental property, precious metals, firearms, stocks and bonds, old cars or used toilet paper. You can make a bundle is just about anything if you invest in it intelligently. You can loose a bundle in just about anything if you aren't careful. You have to be willing to loose whatever you invest and realize that you certainly could. But some folks invest in cigarettes and beer and when twilight reaches them all they'll have are empty cans and cellophane. If you've done your homework and invested in something that actually appreciates over time then you stand the chance of being able to enjoy that latter part of your life and not worry about whether your next social security check is going to by paid.

I guess I diversified...1 horse cost me 35 dollars today...the other 2 will cost me 50 bucks tomorrow. Living my life today is priceless..No huge returns from the bank. I am fully vested in my 401k...It took a hit I am sure. but I never looked up. So far as our government....it has gotten' too big for it's britches... plain and simple. So far as the downgrade we got what we had it coming....now what! Then again, I haven't had cable in 2 years and you cannot text my cell phone....different priorities.

[Beans]

For once being economically challenged doesn't seem so bad and since I don’t/didn't have a 410K, no stock, no bonds Etc to lose any money

[kyratshooter]

You have lost more than you know Beans. Some of us here can remember when a dollar was worth almost a dollar. Even "mild inflation" chokes you to death slowly.

I grew up in a family of 6. Dad made $135 a week when the U.S. went off the gold standard. We ate well, wore good clothes, lived in a new house and drove a new car. We had hope too, study hard, work hard, be loyal to your employer and you would be rewarded for your efforts.

I can remember the predictions that our economy would do exactly what it has done when we were taken off. The fat cats making that decision back in the '60s are all dead now. They knew they would not have to pay the price because it would be 50 years before the tree they planted bore rotten fruit.

Yes, you make more now, but when you make twice as much and you money is worth 1/4 as much you can still only buy half what you could back then.

doom dispair and agony on me,
deep dark depression excessive misery
if it wern't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all
doom dispair and agony on me

[Rick]

For once being economically challenged doesn't seem so bad and since I don’t/didn't have a 410K, no stock, no bonds Etc to lose any money

No slam to you but the opposite is true as well. You didn't have those things to make any money.

Investing is no different than having a job. If the economy goes south you loose your job. Many on here have suffered that fate. If the economy is booming then you get good raises. Think of investing in SOMETHING the same as having a second job. I've said this before as well. If Walmart had a 1/2 price sale on a good portion of the things they carry people would be lined up around the block to get in. Wall Street is having the same kind of sale on stocks. NOW is the time to buy into stocks while the prices are low. Why would you invest in precious metals when it's at an all time high and stocks are low? Doesn't make sense to me.

CS - You are absolutely right. But therein lies the rub. The government has become the do all, be all for everyone. Everyone wants the government to reduce the debt as long as it doesn't impact them. The debt is so high because we have all these social programs and subsidies. Is everyone prepared for milk and cheese prices to increase if those subsidies are stopped? Can we trim social security? Reduce payments to medicare? Stop school lunch programs? The list goes on and on. All great programs but all cost money. I told my kids last Thanksgiving to pay down everything they could and save as much money as they good. Two things were certain. Taxes will go up and services will go down. I still think both are true. The only way to reduce debt is to reduce spending or increase income or both. The government can regulate their income at will. Just raise taxes.

[sushidog]

Rick, the only time someone would want to "invest" in gold at a time like this is if:
1. They expect it to go up to $2,500+/oz as some predict (it almost hit $1,800 today, so they might be right) or more likely
2. They believe the dollar will be worth much less (possibly worthless) in the near future.

What really amuses me is that many are moving into government bonds! What fools! They are jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I remember my dad telling me stories about people in Germany during the 30's stealing wheelbarrows full of money - then dunping the money out on the street and taking the wheelbarrow as it was far more valuable than the mountain of worthless paper it contained. How is the government going to manage to confiscate your gold if you have it in your pocket? A person could easily keep a couple lbs of gold, platinum, etc. in their BOB. Who would know it's there? I used to keep 1/2 bag of junk silver and 30 silver eagles for barter purposes in addition to 1/10th oz platinum and gold eagles. Platinum eagles are a better choice right now, as the current price are not artificially inflated like gold is. Remember, if you want to replenish your larder after the crash, who's going to have change for a 1 oz gold coin?

So to stabilize the market today Bernrnke announced that he will keep the banks interest rate to practically zero for 2 years. What an absurdity! So what happens when our creditors demand higher and higher returns to buy our paper? Can you say death spiral? Sure it will buy us a little time, but not the 2 years he promises - it can't be done without producing a dollar that won't buy more than a chicklet in a couple years. I can't believe so many foolish investors bought this creative deception. Maybe they will wake up tomorrow and see through his subterfuge - then again maybe the sheeple won't.

Chip

[randyt]

money like this, it's probably worth less now than then.
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/randytlee/2187.jpg

[Rick]

Sorry, Chip. I won't get into a debate with you. You obviously have your opinions. As I said above, there are some pretty intelligent players out there that are investing in government backed securities and they've made tons of money so I'm hard pressed to call someone like Warren Buffett a fool.

It's useless to compare 1930 Germany with the present day U.S. Both the political and financial environment are totally different. It makes nice story telling but there is no comparison.

As I said earlier in this post, stocks are rebounding. This is just part of the everyday ups and downs of a free market. That's how they are supposed to work.

[crashdive123]

......I remember my dad telling me stories about people in Germany during the 30's stealing wheelbarrows full of money - then dunping the money out on the street and taking the wheelbarrow as it was far more valuable than the mountain of worthless paper it contained......

My dad told me similar stories. I had trouble wrapping my mind around him saying that he took a wheelbarrow full of pennies to the scrap yard in exchange for one loaf of bread.

[Rick]

And my kids wonder why I pick up every penny I find. Oh, sure, the floor is starting to sag from the weight of all the copper but you just wait.

[Winnie]

Ha, don't laugh about picking up pennies. Over here, pennies are no longer made of copper, they are now copper plated.... a copper penny is worth more than a penny!

[Rick]

It's the same here. They are copper clad zinc. It actually costs the U.S. more to mint the penny in raw materials than it's worth.

[SARKY]

So explain to me how printing money out of thin air is not a form of counterfeiting?

[Rick]

coun·ter·feit

   [koun-ter-fit]

adjective

1. made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; not genuine; forged: counterfeit dollar bills.

2. pretended; unreal: counterfeit grief.

Since the federal government owns the original anything they make is not a counterfeit. Asked and answered.

[randyt]

I was just being a smart acre by posting a photo of a million marks. Living conditions are still good in this country and even though the times are rough it's still better than anywhere else. So to irritate me and my pollyanna attitude send me all your greenbacks. I'll deal with it and take one for the team.

[sushidog]

Well I guess the Sheeple finally got Bernanke's joke, as the Dow dropped another 520 points today (losing another 4.6% of it's value) aborting yesterday's rally and wiping out the tenuous recovery. The Canadian dollar, the UK pound and the euro are all up against the dollar, while gold is realtively flat (with a modest gain) and T-bill rates are down too.

Who would have thunk? ;) Believe me, I don't relish being right this time! And no, I won't attempt to predict the bottom, as there are too many factors involved, but it will certainly be under $10k.

After everything is said and done these things don't really matter that much for our ultimate survival. What's more important is, will an hour of labor (at minimum wage) buy a lb of bacon, a loaf of bread and a dozen eggs or a single egg? If the latter is true, it won't matter how much money you have in the bank, but how much beans and bullets you have and whether or not you have the skills and fortutude to keep them.

Chip

[Rick]

I would bet pessimists find you pessimistic. Cynics find you cynical. Defeatists find you....oh, you get the point. Why do ONLY post on this stuff when it looks bad? I didn't see a single post when the S&P and DOW were doing well this year. You remind me of another fatalist we had on some time back by the name of Bragg. You aren't by chance....naw.........I'll make a bet with you, Chip. If there is a crash of the economy in the next, oh, say, month, I'll deliver to you one wheel barrow full of pennies so you can buy a loaf of bread. If the stock market recovers in the next two weeks then you send me ... Hmmmmm ... What do I really want, let me think. I know I'm draggin' it out but it's so fun .... I know. I know. One (1) share (I'll make you buy stocks) of Greenhouse Holdings. That will cost you 75 cents. Deal?

[sushidog]

Crash in the next month? What do you call the market losing over 17% of its value in the last 3 days, a surge? OMG, greenhouse holdings? You're not related to Al Gore are you? I don't know anyone named Bragg, unless you're talking about Ft. Bragg, then I'm very familair with the gentleman. Got the T-shirt - only thing, it's got a couple holes in it. ;) I don't mean to be doom and gloom all the time. I'd like to be upbeat - maybe when we get another president... Sorry, I know you don't like political posts, and I'm truly trying to be good - it's just so hard. ;)

I've got a counter offer, Rick. I'll tell you what, if the DOW is over $10k, 2 weeks from today you'll get the stock; but if gold is under $1,800, 2 weeks from now you'll owe me roughly the equiv. If the opposite happens, it's a wash. Deal?

Chip

[Rick]

Hmmm. Counter offer. How about this. If there is a crash AND an invasion I'll give you two wheelbarrows of pennies and if the market rebounds in two weeks AND gold paint drops to $2.50 a can you owe me two shares of GH.

[sushidog]

I'm so confused. :confused1:

You're a funny guy Rick. :creepy:

Chip

[Rick]

Hey! It's all smoke and mirrors. Just ignore the man behind the curtain.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Hey! It's all smoke and mirrors. Just ignore the man behind the curtain.

Yeah, don't mind me I was just back behind this curtain sizing it up for a duck blind....

[BENESSE]

Hey! It's all smoke and mirrors. Just ignore the man behind the curtain.

Just ignore the man in front of the mirror, more like it.

[Rick]

(Checking the menu on low priced stocks) What to do? What to do? So many bargains and so much money to be made. (drool)

[Beans]

[QUOTE=kyratshooter;306620I A family just lost a horde their grandad stashed back in '33. Several gold Double Eagles that were not supposed to exist in a safe deposit box in Texas. It was confiscated without recompensation by our fine government..[/QUOTE]


According to my research and an article in the August 2011 ICMJ Prospecting and Mining Journal Page 22 The "Double Eagles" were never released from the US Mint and were "Allegedly acquired" from a shady Cashier at the mint by Mr Swift. The Swift family "allegedly" acquired the Double eagle coins from her father safety deposit box after he died.

Information reflects that the safety deposit box was rented "years" after her father's death in 1990.

The Swift family is appealing the pretrial ruling and the trial judge is to rule on the "ownership" of the coins later this year.

The coins are currently being kept at Fort knox.

[BENESSE]

Looks like there are two sides to every coin.

[sushidog]

Thanks for your 2 cent worth, Benesse. :w00t:

Chip

[crashdive123]

A pence here and a pence there.....it all adds up.

[Rick]

A billion here, a billion there and pretty soon we're talking about real money. - E. Dirkson

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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