milk,bread and egg syndrome

[wareagle69]

weve talked about this before, when an impending emergency comes up these items seem to fly off the shevles.
when i look at what i eat on a daily basis, i look at how i could replace them if i had to rely on only the local economy.
first what do i use the most-milk,eggs,youghurt,cheese,sour cream, heavy cream, butter-all dairy as you can see.
now how to replace all this stuff as most of it seems to be in the basics of home scratch cooking
Eggs- easy enough, get them from the chickens
the rest is more harder- could get a cow but a cow only gives milk for 8 or 9 months the ya got get her inseminated. most farmers around here do it artificially, no one is interested in getting one cow preggers
for baking a substitute is soy flour instead of eggs- one spoonful for every egg called for in a recipe.
the rest takes allot of time and talent that i am still working on
any other suggestions?

[crashdive123]

This thread is right up Pal's alley. :innocent:

[Rick]

Poor pal.

WE - Dried milk and eggs, canned butter and canned cheese. Don't forget evaporated milk and/or condensed milk.

For the sour cream, just add one tablespoon vinegar or lemon juice to one cup (8 fluid ounces) of undiluted evaporated milk and allow it to stand for five minutes. Just remember that commercial sour cream has thickeners and some gelatine to make it so thick.

If you have access to raw milk (like, oh, from a cow maybe) then just let some milk stand out for about 24 hours and it will sour. It will probably take a bit longer in winter. The sour cream will form above the milk and the milk will form something like curds. Save that thickened milk on the bottom. It's called clabber and you can use it as a starter for your next batch of sour cream!

[Pal334]

WE,, Although I have and do get into the storm replacement syndrome (wife induced) I actually don't consider them essentials. If they were not available, would probably just do without or use some of the "powdered" substitutes. And as for youse guys ,Crash and Rick, I see who "has my back". :no::w00t:

[Rick]

I said, "Poor Pal". Didn't I say that. I said that. It was (ahem) someone ELSE that brought up YOU KNOW WHAT.

[canid]

small goats are far easier to manage for dairy than cattle. for one thing, you can have a whole herd of a pygmy breed at the same mass as one cow.

cultured dairy products, while a large set of skills as a whole, can be learned and performed at home rather easily.

on the other hand, one of the realities of producing your own food stuffs is that you can not always have all stuffs on hand at all times.

[Rick]

Great! Now I have this picture in my head of pygmy goats breeding. Thanks a lot.

[canid]

surely you didn't think the pygmy goat stork brought them?

[Rick]

Yeah. I was kinda hopin'.

[wareagle69]

i've been told to try goats milk and cheese before i purchase them.
i have bought 12oz cans of sour cream and powdered eggs from walton feeds cost me like 30 bucks, don't think thats gonna happen again, all the suggestions i have done or heard of, like the sour milk, i'm just thinking more long term than a week, was thinking of months or years, but also just a genuine interest in local food production
soory pal, missed a bit of time here must be a touchy subject for ya, lol nothing like a newb showing up and asking a redundent question w/o doing a search first

[canid]

goat dairy gets a bad wrap without much good reason. it's certainly not identical to that of cattle (though cheese has so much variation that there's little between the two that can't be found within them) but it's minimal. they can both get pretty interesting smells and flavors depending on what they have been eating, but you have to supervise what dairy cattle get a hold of as well.

ultimately; the raising of dairy animals is where dairy comes from. since it's a perishable good in nearly all it's recognizable forms, that would be the natural starting place for long term availability.

bread of course comes down to grain and yeast (the rest is just treatment for taste and texture). keeping perpetual yeast cultures, particularly without refrigeration is a bit of an art, but one which can easily be learned. keeping it from souring is a different story. contamination with bacteria that will sour it is not as easy as some people might imagine, and i would speculate that the leavened bread of antiquity might have put modern sourdough to shame. same for non spontaneously fermented beverages. while i'm interested in raising yeast cultures, i'm also a fan of flat-breads and soda-breads, for their simplicity in this regard.

[Pal334]

WE, "soory pal, missed a bit of time here must be a touchy subject for ya, lol nothing like a newb showing up and asking a redundent question w/o doing a search first " Not to worry, them there guys will get ,, :)

[crashdive123]

WE,[I] "........Not to worry, them there guys will get ,, :)

Get what? Milk, bread and eggs? http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Forum%20Fun/smiley2.gif

[Sourdough]

Get what? Milk, bread and eggs? http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Forum%20Fun/smiley2.gif

That or artificially Inseminated............:blush::blush::blush::blush :

[NightShade]

I was gonna say "2 words- goat milk" then I scrolled down and saw Candid's posts.

[Rick]

Nah.....He won't get milk, bread and eggs but he will give them away!!! Parump bump. Thank you, thank you. I do two shows nightly.

[your_comforting_company]

This stirs a different kind of thought for me. Let me say up front, that I don't think I could "replace" those particular groceries. I don't have a cow, never milked one, nor pasteurized milk, and doubt if I could take it any farther than that.
I could find enough eggs for now with all the folks I know that have chickens.
and then there's the "options" you can buy for long term storage, but what if things are like during Katrina, when even the stores are out of commission.

Now consider, what are you really getting out of the food you eat? Carbs and protein. Eggs, cheese, milk, all provide other nutrients as well. I'm no dietician, so could anyone point out the essential vitamins and minerals that are contained in the foods we are discussing, and lets think about options.
Let's face it. We could live without "gourmet meals" in a bad situation. We've had makeshift spaghetti with ramen noodles, deer jerky, and some tomatoes.The important thing would be to still have the same health benefits, even if the meals taste like crap. I know a few guys who lift weights and their protein shakes ... well, if this is PG-13, I better not say what I think it tastes like.. and they drink that nasty stuff regularly.
The wife and I were just discussing bread a few nights ago. We used to have a breadmaker but never got around to learning how to use it and gave it to someone else. DOH! It's something I would like to learn and probably why I have so much interest in "floury" plants like the stuff grrlscout talks about. Wanted to try a few different things this year, especially the corn recipes using lye, but mother nature put me back to work full time.
Might should have just started a new thread with this, but I thought it fit the discussion.. If you could make your own spaghetti noodles, or taco shells (we already have salsa and tomato-soup type stuff in storage) you could have something-like-normal meals at least, without spending a fortune on storage goods, like powdered or canned bread or having to remember to rotate them.
Your neighborhood and backyard are as local a market as it gets, and "growing" is about as long-term storage as it gets.

[whitis]

Eggs:
- Ener-G Egg Replacer for baking Potato starch/tapioca/baing powder based.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html
- mountain house Freeze dried scrambled eggs or equivalent
- powdered eggs
here is a report of some that taste good
http://www.outdooradventurecanada.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=569
http://www.nutriom.com/
- chickens
- unwashed whole eggs can be stored in salt, lard , wax,or sodium silicate solution for months
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustainable-Farming/1977-11-01/Fresh-Eggs.aspx
- pickled eggs

Bread (some require cooking):
- whole grain crackers (rotate)
- buy bulk whole wheat matzos cheap after passover. ask if you don't see them.
- pasta
- bake your own (preferably from fresh ground grains)
- rice cakes
- use leaves instead of bread for sandwhiches
- tortillas. The white trash version lasts a disconcertingly long time outside the fridge.
- riceworks gourmet brown rice crisps (costco, look like tortilla chips)
- german pumpernickel bread in fridge or freezer(extremely dense, great toasted)
- whole grains, unground last longer.
- brown rice
- keep an unopened jar of wheat germ fridge or freezer to supplement white trash breads/pasta/crackers/tortilla/flour/ramen. When power fails, take it out and put in cool dark place to avoid repeated access to freezer. It should keep a couple weeks. Maybe longer with oxygen absorber. Wheat bran may also be added.
- flax seeds
- spaghetti squash as a substitute/variation for pasta, stores for several months
- survival ration bars
- biscuits baked as needed from freshly ground whole grains
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html
- fresh sprouts from stored grains
- pancakes from fresh ground grains
- wheat gluten to add to fresh ground whole wheat flour
- 1lb brick of compressed yeast
- baking powder
- solar oven, camp oven, dutch oven for baking
- grain mill. Cheap $20 corona style model may require multiple grinding passes and siftingto separate the stuff that needs reground.
- bread machine if you have ample backup power.
- boiled grains
- prepackaged peanut butter crackers
- egg roll wrappers
- tandori oven or wok for quick baking naan bread
- roadpro 12V/6.5A 1.5quart slow cooker. temperature may be a little low for baking bread
- tortilla press
- butane stove for indoor use
- stovetek/aprovecho style biomass rocket stove or rocket wok
http://stovetec.net/us/stove-models/stovetec-stoves
http://bioenergylists.org/stovesdoc/Henson/Rocketwok.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_stove
- Book: how to live on wheat [and other grains]
http://www.clspress.com/wheat.html
haven't read it but survival oriented

Milk:
- Powdered milk
- condensed milk
- shelf stable soy milk
- shelf stable milk (comes in container like soy milk)
leche de larga vida in Chile
- cows/goats
- small cheese wheels coated in cheese wax. can store for 25 years in some cases
- hard cheeses
- formaticum cheese paper?
- clabored milk (start with human quality raw milk, pasturized milk turns putrid)
- kefir grains or yogurt starter may extend life a bit


If you are going to cover milk, eggs, and bread/grains, might make some crepes, pancakes, or english muffins. Thin breads cook faster. If you have a batter recipe that works with what you store, could be cooked quickly on a backpack stove.

The whole phenomenon of raiding the stores for milk, egg, and bread before a impending storm is rather dubious. If a storm is coming you either want move your ice packs from freezer to fridge and put new water packs in freezer (if you have time to freeze) or add dry ice or ice. maybe add some foam panels for insulation to the outside of fridge. Then, either:
- duct tape the fridge closed for the duration, or:
- open as infrequently as possible to remove foods in order of perishibility for consumption without things like condiments you need to open the fridge to replace.
The last thing you should be doing is buying and adding foods requiring refrigeration. And bread seems to typically be sliced bread which may typically be used with peanut butter (the only food people can typically think of that doesn't require refrigeration or cooking) which makes you want to open the fridge for milk and jelly (Note jelly is available in single use packs) or cheese and cold cuts from the fridge). Oddly, people seem to think in terms of food which doesn't need to be cooked rather than food that doesn't need refrigeration when the latter is more of a problem.

Ran across the Healthy Hurricane/disaster cookbook (PDF):
http://home.smh.com/sections/services-procedures/medlib/Medlib_Info/The%20Healthy%20Hurricane_Disaster%20Cookbook_0902 10.pdf

[canid]

a lot of the foods we believe require refrigeration do not. they can be kept for reasonable periods of time in temperatures of the 40s, 50s, and even into the 60s. these - you'll find - are the cellar, and later the ice-box temperatures of our earlier generations.

the rate of food spoilage is a product of heat and time.

[Rick]

In reality, things like dairy, eggs and flour are convenience foods, not essentials. Mankind has lived for tens of thousands of years without any of them and here in our own country as little as 250 years ago. Having wheat flour keeps you from beating the snot out of 10,000 acorns and gives you the luxury of doing something else with your time. Think outside the box.

[BENESSE]

There are so many decent (healthier) alternatives to milk, bread & eggs even when all's well, that would especially make sense when one needs to stock up.

[cowgirlup]

WE,, Although I have and do get into the storm replacement syndrome (wife induced) I actually don't consider them essentials. If they were not available, would probably just do without or use some of the "powdered" substitutes. And as for youse guys ,Crash and Rick, I see who "has my back". :no::w00t:

I never did hear the rest of that story. I was following the thread but never saw why there was so much milk bread and eggs and what happened after Pal's "generosity". Anyone want to clue me in? :)

[Winnie]

I never did hear the rest of that story. I was following the thread but never saw why there was so much milk bread and eggs and what happened after Pal's "generosity". Anyone want to clue me in? :)

Let's just say, it got messy and Pal is still recovering. Mrs Pal has made sure he learned his lesson and he doesn't give away milk, bread and eggs anymore.

[Rick]

And suffice it to say you can not take a dent out of a cast iron skillet.

[cowgirlup]

Let's just say, it got messy and Pal is still recovering. Mrs Pal has made sure he learned his lesson and he doesn't give away milk, bread and eggs anymore.


And suffice it to say you can not take a dent out of a cast iron skillet.

Oh I knew he was in trouble when I asked if she normally did such things and he said no.

So the thread doesn't get totally derailed,
somebody PM me with details! Where's Paul Harvey with the rest of the story! :)

[Rick]

Here you go....

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?9738-A-storm-of-Apocalyptic-potential-approaches-New-Jersey&highlight=milk+bread+eggs

And much of it was YOUR fault I might add.

[Pal334]

I shall stay aloof out of respect to the original post. So there you guys

[Rick]

He's been looking for a way to say aloof for days now.

[Pal334]

I jist larned it, give me a break.

[LowKey]

you guys suggesting pygmy goats ever tried milking one? If you have large hands, you are going to be using two fingers and not getting a lot for your effort of milking several more goats.
If you are going to replace cow milk with goat, get larger dairy type goats. You can milk them as easily as a cow and get a decent amount of milk even sharing with a goat kid or two. And bucks are downright nasty. If you keep one, you have to keep him penned and/or chained separate from the does.
Larger goats have the added bonus of more meat too.

For eggs, you keeping chickens now? Know how to raise them from the egg if the hen won't brood?

For bread, you can buy buckets of wheat and a grinder and keep them a long long time, but have you ever tried whole wheat bread made totally from ground whole wheat? It's like eating a whole loaf of the crust on white bread. When making, it doesn't hold together well and doesn't rise as easily as white flour. Plus you have to contend with a sugar source (have you tried bread made with honey and do you know how to keep bees?) and catching a wild yeast beasty that tastes good.
Acorn flour isn't really flour and doesn't act like flour. But grinding 10000 acorns will give you something to do when you have no TV, no Kindle, no Internet, and no cellphone/text messages to keep you busy.

[kyratshooter]

Right now, in good times relitive to SHTF, no one can keep either goats or chickens in my part of the country. The coyotes are killing them for sport, leaving the bodies to rot.

The first settlers in any area of our nation usually did without milk and eggs for a full generation until the Indians and wolves were killed off. When you read about the early fort seiges the settlers usually made it through OK but had to watch their cattle die outside the fort walls.

A milk cow has the advantage of being large enough to keep the yotes at bay and the investment is enough to pen up the mama when she is due to drop the calf to protect it from predators.

"Bread" is a subjective term and has many meanings past the mushy fluff we buy at the store. Bread was the reason civilization began 10,000 years before white flour, yeast and self rising flour were sold at Kroger. Even Otzie the Iceman had icorn wheat as a last meal before he was killed in the Alps 5,000 years ago.

In my area corn was the staple cereal grain for 2000 years. Corn meal without a rising agent makes a tough, coarse pancake that will fill you up, wear out your teeth and jaws and keep you alive forever. Mix a bit of bacon grease into the batter and it is not as prone to falling apart. You can also use the corn for hominey, grits and as a fresh vegetable. I know a couple of older folks that claim they never saw bread made from flour until they were drafted into WW2.

In our region it was such a staple that in order to "prove" a land claim in the frontier days one was required to show at least two ears of corn grown on claimed property to secure the land. The Indians dropped the crushing of acorns when cultivation of corn was introduced from Central America.

Corn gives enough food value to allow support of a family using only a simple matate and mano for grinding.

Beef and white bread washed down with pasturized milk was not what powered the settlers over the frontier, It was hog and hominey washed down with white whiskey that sustained our nation through those early days.

[Rick]

It's interesting that "bread" was the primary staple for eons. Only recently has protein become an everyday food.

[LowKey]

Oh sure, you had to go and mention cornbread made with bacon fat.
Now I have to make some.

[Blasfemo]

concerning goats i have to be honest it will in general feel better on your stomach i think its more agreeable but the taste is always different and may take some getting use to but hey hunger can be a great cook also! and get a milk goat more meat and more milk with less trouble... plus a cow can be hard to feed a goat will eat almost anything you give it... this includes pestes like wild Rubus species that can be hard to get a handle on...

[kyratshooter]

It's interesting that "bread" was the primary staple for eons. Only recently has protein become an everyday food.

In Europe and the early U.S. the bread was nothing like what we eat. It was the staff of life for a reason. The bread was so dense that they would cut off a slice and hollow out the center, then spoon the stews and soups that were their main diet into the hollow. The bread was so dense that it held the food like a bowl. Some of the liquid would soak up into the bread, but the "plate" it was on was a simple "trencher" or wooden plank. (Gave you a square meal) You ate the stew and then ate the bread bowl it was in.

Generally you got enough soup to flavor the bread, but the bread was your real food.

Bones from the archieological sites reveal that the cuts of meat were for boiling and not roasting or grilling as we do. They killed an animal and had to use it up within a couple of days unless the weather was cold. Fresh beef was an autumn food. Hard to eat all of a cow before it spoiled. Mutton, goat and poultry was the year around fresh meat. Beef and pork was pickled, salted, smoked and jerked for long term use.

You butchered it into cooking joints, scattered it around the villiage and plopped it into a big stew pot that you kept simmering forever to keep it from rotting. (peas porrage hot, peas porage cold, peas porage in the pot 9 days old)

Of course, this was washed down with beer, made by the good wife. Beer preserved calories and brewing the drink purified the water it was made from. They drank beer 3 meals a day and had weak forms for the children. If you had the choice between making bread and making beer it was not even a close call, you made beer.

The same sourdough culture that made your beer also levened your bread.

As for the protien, that came from the grains/vegetables. Every bread was not wheat. Each region made bread from what grew best there; millit, barley, rye, and in the Americas, corn. Most of Europe was vegetarian, meat was for the rich. They had a 35 year life expectancy so they were NOT healthier than us. They just produced 15 kids between 15 and 35 and then died.

In the Americas meat was so plentiful it became the primary food of every meal.

In the Americal west Scurvey was a problem among the mountain men in winter due to eating a totally carnivorous diet.

Drinking fresh milk was not a good thing back then. Bovine TB was a big killer. Turning the milk to cheese or yogart created enough acid to give some protection. Buttermilk was a big favorite due to necessity in most areas. You did all your cooking with buttermilk because that was all you had.

So, in the days when survival was daily life the critters killed all you chickens, so you did not worry about eggs, drinking the milk would kill you, and you baked your own bread.

Two out of three of our staples were not even considered important to real survivors.

[Bushman]

"you guys suggesting pygmy goats ever tried milking one? If you have large hands, you are going to be using two fingers and not getting a lot for your effort of milking several more goats"

ya gotta go back a step..............."first...............obtain your Pygmy............." (cause they gots liddle handies)

then obtain your 'pygmy goats'..................:6::canadian:

No Problemo !!:FRlol:

(ps//I don't charge for this advice.................)

Harry

[crashdive123]

Now that right there is funny, I don't care who you are. Lord, I apologize, and be with the starvin' Pygmies down there in New Guinea. Amen.

[Rick]

Oh, man. That hurt. I snorted that was so funny. Yeah, yeah. First things first.

[canid]

I have rather small hands, and yet I learned to palm a basket ball. There are those with large hands who have learned to perform mechanical watch repair, become surgeons, etc. Am I to believe that hand-size should be a realistic impediment to milking a medium sized mammal, or is it not likely you were not making enough effort? I wasn't good at walking when I first tried it either; should I have just written it off?

Moreover, all food is a matter for survival. The more, and more varied a diet you provide for yourself the greater your odds. To say that predatory animals precluded the keeping of chickens, or that milk was deadly and so people did not bother with them is to ignore the clear and obvious evidence that these foods were produced anyway.

Your post was exceptional except for the wild exaggeration.

[Rick]

Psssst. I think it was intended as a bit of an exaggeration. But the problems were certainly real. Hey! Get that fox away from chickens!

[canid]

To what purpose? The assertions were that due to exaggerated difficulties, nobody bothered, or the task was impossible.

Of course predatory animals can pose threats to livestock. Of course food-born pathogens pose threats to consumers. If the above assertions were true and if we where to fold over to these inconveniences we would not be here today. If under-nourished bush tribes can raise goats or chickens on a subsistence basis in Africa, competing with lions, leopards, hyenas, spotted dogs, etc. then we can certainly do it anywhere habitable on the other continents, particularly were standards of nutrition are higher and resources are greater. Further, the proof is readily evident in most corners of every rural area.

I guess I just don't see the point in the level of pessimism.

[BENESSE]

So, in the days when survival was daily life the critters killed all you chickens, so you did not worry about eggs, drinking the milk would kill you, and you baked your own bread.

Two out of three of our staples were not even considered important to real survivors.

Right on the money kyrat!
We've become spoiled IMO, and think we need more than we do for a reasonable and healthy survival.

[canid]

You can go on thinking so if you like, but the assertion is ridiculous in ways that should be glaringly obvious and the body of evidence is against it (the viability of subsistence with chickens/eggs and dairy, not the clear concurrent importance of cereals).

[BENESSE]

You can go on thinking so if you like, but the assertion is ridiculous in ways that should be glaringly obvious and the body of evidence is against it.

I assume you're talking to me. And no, the body of evidence is not against it.
Depends who you choose to listen to.
I choose to believe results in the first place. Then I look at scientific evidence that supports those results. It's quite simple, IMO.

[canid]

I am indeed referring to your comment, where you support the statements that:

1.) 'animals killed all your chickens'.
while is is unarguable that depredation by animals is a threat to livestock, to claim that such animals killed all chickens and that therefore people did not worry about eggs is to pretend that chickens were not raised (they all being dead) and that their eggs were not consumed. the reality is that there is an enormous body of evidence of the keeping of chickens through all periods in this country from their introduction through the present day. in every state. This is likewise true for nearly every area into which domesticated chickens have been introduced. These areas total most of the sub arctic inhabited world.

This sounds like a lot of trouble to go through for no benefit. You can certainly live without them, but their role in civilization is firmly rooted in reality.

2.) 'drinking the milk would kill you'
while food born pathogens like listeria and bovine TB (detrimental to livestock populations, but actually only rarely transmitted to humans) are of concern, there is still the reality that bovines also have been domesticated for several thousand years. There are currently over 1.6 billion, on 6 continents. The use of their dairy is likewise unarguable. The threat of disease has not stopped it, but motivated humans to develop mitigation methods.

While I am - again - not arguing against the valid points raised in this thread, I refuse to sit by some of them. You can live without these products, but this is not the same as to state that they are not important, and certainly not the same to to make some of the assertions posed above.

Would you care to offer evidence for a period where nobody used milk, or all chickens were eaten by coyotes? really; i don't know what is so hard to grasp here.

[Rick]

To what purpose?

Humor. Fun. A slow day. It's too hot. Take your pick. What are you drinkin'?

[canid]

Water; Like you said, it's too hot.

[crashdive123]

Yes - hot today. 102 in the shade. Heat index 119. Workshop 126. No knife work today.

[canid]

I still have to clean mine today :(

[crashdive123]

When the temp in the shade drops to 90, I've got to get some grinding done. Probably about 8:30 or 9:00 tonight. Sorry to hijack the thread with a weather report.

[LowKey]

This thread went from how to replace, raise or use milk,bread,eggs to arguments on how far back they were used and who raised them.

In a local-only subsistence situation in the current here-and-now, you do have the ability to raise chickens without predation (and don't forget about native birds like grouse, doves and even pigeons), you can pasteurize your milk source, and while you may have to rely on someone with more land than you to get wheat for your bread (or come up with something to trade to someone who is the local-only baker of said bread). It isn't as easy as it sounds. As for the joke on the pygmy goats, that was funny :). But, in a subsistence situation, consider the benefits of larger and fewer animals. You are going to have a lot of other things to do and milking 20 small, mini goats as opposed to 3 or 4 larger ones will get your day going quicker, as well as less mouths to feed and water.

I'd be curious about evidence of soup in a bread bowl beyond the current cafe practice. Not doubting you, but the historical accounts I've read put the bread to the side (but I only focus 1600s to 1800s). Provincial practice maybe?

As for more 'healthy' alternatives...such as?
Are there 'healthy' alternatives that don't require heaving stocking of supplies. Ones that can be readily grown.

Speaking of growing, my garden was a disaster this year, between a questionable load of manure mixed with old wood chips and the rain stopping at just the wrong time. It would be a mighty lean winter if this was for real. While I got enough cukes to do 12 pints of pickles and the tomatoes are coming along very slowly, most everything else yellowed or wilted out. It's a bummer.

[canid]

i like that idea; but consider also the safety in numbers, with a larger herd of smaller animals.

when you have two cows and one suffers a serious injury, you have just halved your herd. same for illness. further, old 3 legged pig jokes aside, when necessity calls for slaughter, you can't harvest part of the animal.

I can see benefits in both directions, but ultimately, i'd rather have my eggs in several baskets. what do you think?

[Blasfemo]

This thread went from how to replace, raise or use milk,bread,eggs to arguments on how far back they were used and who raised them.

In a local-only subsistence situation in the current here-and-now, you do have the ability to raise chickens without predation (and don't forget about native birds like grouse, doves and even pigeons), you can pasteurize your milk source, and while you may have to rely on someone with more land than you to get wheat for your bread (or come up with something to trade to someone who is the local-only baker of said bread). It isn't as easy as it sounds. As for the joke on the pygmy goats, that was funny :). But, in a subsistence situation, consider the benefits of larger and fewer animals. You are going to have a lot of other things to do and milking 20 small, mini goats as opposed to 3 or 4 larger ones will get your day going quicker, as well as less mouths to feed and water.

I'd be curious about evidence of soup in a bread bowl beyond the current cafe practice. Not doubting you, but the historical accounts I've read put the bread to the side (but I only focus 1600s to 1800s). Provincial practice maybe?

As for more 'healthy' alternatives...such as?
Are there 'healthy' alternatives that don't require heaving stocking of supplies. Ones that can be readily grown.



while i can get the point of a few less heads of catle you have to realize a cow can drink 50\150 or even 250L of water in a hot dry day. Goats are among the most efficient domestic animals in the use of water, approaching the camel in the low rate of water turnover per unit of body weight, a cow can really stress with heat, goats can handle the heat... only thing is goats can be a litle water picky someting to do with mineral intake they choose the source of water they drink from if they can... i kinda like goats over cows they seem more survivor in essence...

[LowKey]

I see your point too Canid. I'll have to think some on that.
The ideal situation is a community herd.
I still don't think in any here-and-now scenario it will be possible to go it alone as a bug-in homesteader.

[yellowcab]

шоко (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/6114)152.5 (http://cottagenet.ru)фоку (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/201)Repr (http://eyesvisions.com)Брюл (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1438145)Char (http://filmzones.ru/t/1382544)Влад (http://gadwall.ru/t/1579944)Сотн (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1351077)пе�н (http://gageboard.ru/t/1241085)This (http://gagrule.ru/t/1040099)Jewe (http://gallduct.ru/t/1643813)livr (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1659509)Gree (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1679834)Barc (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1703122)Losi (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1712281)
изда (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1459217)Mast (http://gascautery.ru/t/1762044)Зако (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1628619)тек� (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1751756)Lind (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1481083)Zone (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1859183)хоро (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1708258)Henr (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1381864)Хан- (http://geartreating.ru/t/1379440)Болд (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1377870)Яроб (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1496803)wwwi (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1554627)Temp (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1553996)Петр (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1565290)(189 (http://getthebounce.ru/t/1329323)
Тимо (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1400006)Седо (http://habituate.ru/t/1376267)Иван (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1373175)Pleu (http://hackworker.ru/t/1685700)надп (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1354668)Arti (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1369891)Царе (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1374928)Шаба (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1379278)Rafa (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1381922)Slim (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1551173)Пере (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1434073)авто (http://haltstate.ru/t/1579679)Бииш (http://handcoding.ru/t/1564776)Ethe (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1700727)Phil (http://handradar.ru/t/1569259)
Cour (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1764545)XVII (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1387055)Ñ�оде (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1379630)учре (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/1248414)Ð*уба (http://hardasiron.ru/t/1241334)Воро (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1350796)Core (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1360398)праз (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1349369)Воро (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1480851)Four (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1548199)Laka (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1548231)Fall (http://headregulator.ru/t/1548234)Трух (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1645156)Кафе (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1375958)Ильк (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1587651)
МоиÑ� (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1345747)Пушк (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/855715)Thom (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/1247092)Соде (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1695536)Fred (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/1246516)Смир (http://jobstress.ru/t/1403450)Микл (http://jogformation.ru/t/1303186)авто (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1384292)Neal (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1374588)изда (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1586673)Ð*апа (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1356368)Кова (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1353877)Isab (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1254272)науч (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1242418)Пури (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1253674)
Edwi (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1182319)Капу (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/1245219)Щерб (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1346535)опуб (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1378559)�тен (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1308736)Лурь (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/1240932)Гриб (http://keyserum.ru/t/1385433)Rock (http://kickplate.ru/t/1662865)Иван (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1582903)Коро (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1376280)подр (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1701679)вооб (http://kinozones.ru/film/6114)Gott (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1381732)Paul (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1413750)Apoc (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1764473)
Giac (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1466686)�пец (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1565343)Zone (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1549729)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1548538)Beyo (http://laborracket.ru/t/1712804)Armi (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1714109)Zone (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1549641)Ба�а (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1253563)Гуан (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1381801)Донб (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1642840)Кане (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1582547)Вай� (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1328904)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1193162)Мак� (http://laggingload.ru/t/1308806)Моро (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1327955)
Joyc (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1320284)куль (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1567263)Zone (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1783891)Корш (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1350964)ма�� (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1245317)Туин (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1225123)Гарр (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1232989)Zone (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1711687)XIII (http://landreform.ru/t/1349368)Bill (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1280007)John (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1382543)колл (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1827096)XXII (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1826993)ме�� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1819)Ster (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/1030651)

[yellowcab]

Cata (http://laterevent.ru/shop/154330)Clim (http://latrinesergeant.ru)Acac (http://layabout.ru/shop/601750)Book (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1418611)Ð�рти (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/465267)Book (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/795019)9619 (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1152211)Мали (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/447195)2700 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/862207)Ñ�ерт (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/862031)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/576237)деко (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/789058)диза (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/1151841)PROT (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/614103)моне (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1176215)
Writ (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1545194)фитн (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2756)trac (http://mp3lists.ru/item/6114)пред (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1532977)кра� (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/1034025)ббцц (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/467967)Quee (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1206911)упак (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/1031543)Winn (http://navelseed.ru/shop/454575)Wind (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/1068777)Migh (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/223571)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/652762)Wind (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/865846)Кита (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/472156)Kenw (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/9517)
вход (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/1032750)happ (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/458452)Whis (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571855)Ð�нтр (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/1153512)Серо (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/1256864)одеж (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/288569)Игна (http://onesticket.ru/shop/584358)Поче (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/585539)Гран (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/689798)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/690700)жанр (http://palmberry.ru/shop/956463)жите (http://papercoating.ru/shop/683045)иÑ�ку (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/1067428)Ixod (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1708990)черт (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1178201)
Hein (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1420618)�екр (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1538322)Щипа (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1545519)М��н (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1708848)Крыл (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/736544)Би�м (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/931290)и�ку (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1214019)теат (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1434190)Очко (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/1502699)MPEG (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/518058)и�ку (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/888759)`Тру (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/975484)HALC (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1079080)acti (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1401761)зан� (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1559019)
Pier (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/632278)Двор (http://rearchain.ru/shop/880102)Влад (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/932865)авто (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1654987)Попо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1662327)Шуби (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1668376)лите (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1690073)филь (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1715972)медв (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1774099)Firs (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1785607)�ики (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1822931)Лы�е (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1847377)Крав (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1856279)вузо (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1884340)Bonu (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1918749)
Злот (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1932020)1966 (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1950418)Dani (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1964038)нача (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1973599)Тюри (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1463422)Ткач (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1498448)авто (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/1604321)Klau (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/1656881)лице (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1680481)Sess (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1714142)ме�� (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1819)ме�� (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1819)ме�� (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1819)Trud (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/488176)Гари (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/1765016)
Санк (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1773612)Eliz (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1776718)Малы (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/494571)Топо (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/506125)Козл (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1856019)педа (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901909)у�тр (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1969095)Dayd (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/890605)груп (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/932999)обще (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/986454)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)John (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/988813)Мигу (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/488564)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)инфо (http://cottagenet.ru)инфо (http://eyesvision.ru)инфо (http://eyesvisions.com)инфо (http://factoringfee.ru)инфо (http://filmzones.ru)инфо (http://gadwall.ru)инфо (http://gaffertape.ru)инфо (http://gageboard.ru)инфо (http://gagrule.ru)инфо (http://gallduct.ru)инфо (http://galvanometric.ru)инфо (http://gangforeman.ru)инфо (http://gangwayplatform.ru)инфо (http://garbagechute.ru)
инфо (http://gardeningleave.ru)инфо (http://gascautery.ru)инфо (http://gashbucket.ru)инфо (http://gasreturn.ru)инфо (http://gatedsweep.ru)инфо (http://gaugemodel.ru)инфо (http://gaussianfilter.ru)инфо (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)инфо (http://geartreating.ru)инфо (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)инфо (http://generalprovisions.ru)инфо (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)инфо (http://geriatricnurse.ru)инфо (http://getintoaflap.ru)инфо (http://getthebounce.ru)
инфо (http://habeascorpus.ru)инфо (http://habituate.ru)инфо (http://hackedbolt.ru)инфо (http://hackworker.ru)инфо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)инфо (http://haemagglutinin.ru)инфо (http://hailsquall.ru)инфо (http://hairysphere.ru)инфо (http://halforderfringe.ru)инфо (http://halfsiblings.ru)инфо (http://hallofresidence.ru)инфо (http://haltstate.ru)инфо (http://handcoding.ru)инфо (http://handportedhead.ru)инфо (http://handradar.ru)
инфо (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)инфо (http://hangonpart.ru)инфо (http://haphazardwinding.ru)инфо (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)инфо (http://hardasiron.ru)инфо (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)инфо (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)инфо (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)инфо (http://hatchholddown.ru)инфо (http://haveafinetime.ru)инфо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)инфо (http://headregulator.ru)инфо (http://heartofgold.ru)инфо (http://heatageingresistance.ru)инфо (http://heatinggas.ru)
инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)
инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)