First Aid "Stuff" Priority, what's MOST Important....???

[Sourdough]

Yes, I know my needs and priorities are different. I completely disassembled the 36 hour kit to make room for the new "Golite" SL3 fly. (Note: I have decided to call it a 36 hour kit, not a daypack).

First Level Priority Order:
______________________

1.) Tent or tent fly system.
2.) Heat containment system, bivey bag/sleeping bag liner, watch cap & gloves.

Second Level Priority:
___________________
1.) Rope
2.) Windproof/Gortex Mountain Jacket
3.) First Aid Stuff

As you can see my most basic minimal survival pack is nearly full of things I need be for I consider First Aid Stuff, or food. And the truth is that I have rarely ever needed any first aid supplies. But clearly I don't have room for much stuff, I think an "ACE" elastic roll bandage & VICODIN are "Must" for the kit. Now, I am open to suggestions of maybe (8) eight more items. Most likely event is falling into a rock pile and getting broken body parts, and/or deep gashes, or getting nibbled by a bear. Note: I am alone on the mountain, and if hurt must crawl out.

Thank You for the help.

[Sparky93]

You could throw a tube of super glue in there, it takes up little space and I have seen my dad use it to fix some pretty serious gashes with it (it take a lot to get him to go to the doctor) plus you can use it for gear repair (like if the sole of your boot come half undone 5 mile from home) and lots of other stuff.

[Sourdough]

sjj,

I have lots of first aid stuff. What I want advise on is priority, If you could only have five items. AND WHAT is:

"an apologiy to Winner on behalf of all men who know their place in this world - would wipe the slate clean".

Sorry don't know what your talking about.

[Sourdough]

You could throw a tube of super glue in there, it takes up little space and I have seen my dad use it to fix some pretty serious gashes with it (it take a lot to get him to go to the doctor) plus you can use it for gear repair (like if the sole of your boot come half undone 5 mile from home) and lots of other stuff.

SO, if you could only take "ONE" First Aid item........it would be super glue.....?

[Sourdough]

The question is: What is the single most important first aid item.....? Now what is the second most important first aid item.....? If you could NOT take a first aid kit, and could only take five items....what would those five items be.......?

[Sparky93]

SO, if you could only take "ONE" First Aid item........it would be super glue.....?

Understand I have little first aid experience, That was just me thinkin out loud. I have seen a drillbit hole through a hand repaired by super glue, but if I could only one first aid item I don't know that I would choose super glue. The major injuries that come to my mind that could happen are broken bones, lacurations, puncture wounds, twisted ankle. If I could only choose one item, with my current knowledge, I would probably go with duct tape, it could be used as a tournequet, a "band-aid", used to secure makeshift splints in place and another 1001 uses. If you can't fix it with duct tape then you haven't used enough.

Again I have minimal first aid experience, so don't take anything I say about the subject to seriously, I'm just thinking out loud.

[Winter]

Usually, my biggest injury is a small cut. If untreated or maltreated these can get bad in 3-7 days.

A broken tooth can shut a grown bada$$ down.

With those 2 things in mind, a topical antibiotic like Neosporin for the first and some x-strength Ambesol for the latter could keep you moving and living.

[pete lynch]

For me, all of my FAKs have at least one item that addresses these 5 things:
stop bleeding
stop infection
bandage wounds
pain relief
blister care
This list covers my needs while engaging in my main activities; hiking, paddling and camping.

[crashdive123]

Sourdough - first you need to understand (IMO) first aid priorities. (kind of sort of like the rule of threes) This way you can focus your efforts on those priorities, in order, and tailor them to your unique circumstances. With some of the priorities (like breathing and circulation) you may just be SOL (Sourdough Our of Luck))

Airway: Without it - nothing else matters. While there is no real gear to take, find out how to self-administer the Heimlich Maneuver.

Breathing: Again - no real gear for your kit here.

Circulation: Again - alone - there ain't gonna be no CPR.

Bleeding: This could be a big one for you. I would think a hemostatic agent would be a must. I carry Quick Clot. Of course, that is for an arterial type bleeding situation, so something for lesser injuries should also be in order. Think back to your fall about a year or so ago when you cut your hand. What would it take to have stopped the bleeding. Also, while immediately non non life threatening - you have to consider infection. Even an infection from a small wound can kill.

Broken Things: This, I know is a big concern. Being alone, in rough terrain, and no hope of somebody knowing that you are missing for what is potentially a very long time (we'd miss you here, but there is only so much the Internet can do) - so something to immobilize the break. I like Sam Splints and ace bandages (for something less severe, but nonetheless immobilizing). The splints can be secured with an ace bandage, tape, cordage, a tree root, etc.

Shock: Another big killer. It is not something that you may recognize either. I do not know of any statistics regarding self treatment for shock, but staying warm, lying down (if able), slightly elevating your legs, loosen any constrictive clothing or gear (gotta let the blood flow as easily as possible).

[crashdive123]

I just had another thought while reading the post I just made. I kind of jokingly said there is only so much the Internet can do. Well..........if you are going to explore an new area that is pretty rough - you can let us know via PM or a post. With specifics - lat/long of area or name, time we should call for help if you have not logged on, and a number for the local help - you can leave an itinerary with trusted friends if you choose to do so. See - the Internet can do everything.

[Rick]

SD - I have to recommend knowledge first. I recommend you go to Los Anchorage and take a good first aid class hosted by the American Red Cross. They are one day classes and there are many scheduled so you could attend one that would meet your scheduled trip to pick up guns, food, guns, etc., guns.

https://classes.redcross.org/Saba/Web/Main/goto/showMap?zipcode=99501&category=First%20Aid&startDate=2011-07-18&endDate=2011-08-19&radi=25&language=English&delivery=Classroom

Since your goal is really to stabilize yourself long enough to find help (or they find you) then knowledge is the single most important thing you can have. You can improvise virtually everything else.

That said, there have been some good answers and none of them, in my opinion are wrong. Some are better than others, IMO.

1. Compression bandage - 6in. - You can stop a lot of bleeding with pressure. In fact, unless an artery is severed, a compression bandage is the preferred method. I like something with "wings' that allow you to tie it so one of the military versions like the Israeli bandage is excellent.

2. Hemostatic agent (QuickClot, Celox, or similar) - The odds of you needing this are pretty small but if you DO need it nothing else will take its place. It can be applied one handed if necessary and should be covered with the compression bandage. Remember, you are wanting to treat serious injuries and find help.

3. Vicodin 500 mg - You need something that will take the edge off of severe pain and still allow you to function mentally and physically. You may know or have to experiment with what works best for you but Vicodin is generally good in this regard. You don't want to crawl with a broken leg for two days and be in extreme pain when you can crawl for two days and be reasonably comfortable. Obviously, that's a bit relative.

4. Cipro 500 mg - It's a good broad spectrum antibiotic. I know you've never had a problem with water borne pathogens but that doesn't mean you won't. Still, a bacterial infection of any kind can be a problem if you are out. You can start Cipro and get to help. At our age infections are more problematic since we have an older immune system. We need the extra help and extra time Cipro will give us to get to a doctor.

5. Loperamide (anti-diarrheal) - Nothing will dehydrate you quicker, make you more miserable, and threaten your overall health like diarrhea. Loperamide can help you get it under control quickly so you can get to help.

6. Aspirin - At our age you have to consider the risk of heart attack. Not all are immediate killers. Some last for days. If you can tolerate aspirin (stomach upset or bleeding) then aspirin might keep you alive long enough to find help.

7. SPOT (or similar personal tracker) - It's really not about dragging yourself out of the woods. It's about stabilizing yourself long enough for help to find you and carry you out. The more you move with an injury the more complications you may cause. A first aid class will emphasize this.

EDIT: I don't carry one but I do carry a cell phone and amateur radio so one or the other will get me help where I am. If I were in AK then a SPOT would be on my list.

Those are my recommendations and the reasoning behind them. As I said, if you have the knowledge you can improvise just about everything else although none of the previous recommendations were wrong. Minor cuts, scratches and scrapes can be flushed with just clean water and left open to heal. The body knows how to do that. A topical antibiotic and bandages help prevent infection and protect the wound but you don't HAVE to have them. The items I listed I think are HAVE to haves.

I'm sure you can find a doctor in Alaska that thoroughly understands the need for Cipro and Vicodin and will write a script to you for enough to support you long enough to get help. I hope you never need any of it.

[rwc1969]

Only one item? Duct tape?

[Sourdough]

Thanks Everyone, This is the exact information I was looking for.

Rick, I have 1,2,3,4,--,6, and I will get #5

Crash, Post #11 is a good and workable point, and I will aspire to do that.

[Sourdough]

Tape Question: Is duct tape the single best choice......? I am right handed, and I can see that if any part of the right hand or arm did not work, trying to work with duct tape with left hand could be impossible.

[Sparky93]

Tape Question: Is duct tape the single best choice......? I am right handed, and I can see that if any part of the right hand or arm did not work, trying to work with duct tape with left hand could be impossible.

hmmm..good point, It probably would be hard to use duct tape one handed, but I guess most things would be hard to do one handed like tryin to tie a tournequete knot

[Sourdough]

hmmm..good point, It probably would be hard to use duct tape one handed, but I guess most things would be hard to do one handed like tryin to tie a tournequete knot

I have some very large 1/2" wide X 30" long snap ties. They are very light. I might throw three or four into the kit, they could repair equipment also.

[Sparky93]

I have some very large 1/2" wide X 30" long snap ties. They are very light. I might throw three or four into the kit, they could repair equipment also.

Is that what I call a zip tie? If so the three most important tools to a redneck are duct tape, zip ties and jb weld :)

[Sourdough]

Is that what I call a zip tie?

Maybe "Tie-wrap" is their correct title. I don't know.

[Sparky93]

Does it look like this?
http://wiki.fisski.com/images/Zip-ties.jpg

[Sarge47]

I've heard it said that Quik-Clot should only be used on wounds on the arms & legs, and not the Torso area, does anybody else know if that's true or not? :confused1: :cool2:

[Sourdough]

does it look like this?
http://wiki.fisski.com/images/zip-ties.jpg

yes...........

[Sparky93]

We call that a zip tie round here

[Sarge47]

Remember that you have to loosen a tourniquet every 15 minutes or so to keep the blood flowing throughout the body. A zip-tie has to be cut off once applied. With the pressure required to shut down the flow of blood that has the potential of causing greater problems.
:cool2:

[Sparky93]

Remember that you have to loosen a tourniquet every 15 minutes or so to keep the blood flowing throughout the body. A zip-tie has to be cut off once applied. With the pressure required to shut down the flow of blood that has the potential of causing greater problems.
:cool2:

Great point, zip ties are hard enough to get undone with two hands, sitten in an easy chair, let alone with one hand and possibly at night. It would be impossible.

[Sourdough]

Remember that you have to loosen a tourniquet every 15 minutes or so to keep the blood flowing throughout the body. A zip-tie has to be cut off once applied. With the pressure required to shut down the flow of blood that has the potential of causing greater problems.
:cool2:

True.......But if good arm is compound fractured, and left hand has two broken fingers.........could be the only choice.

[Sparky93]

So if you 12 hours from rescue and you have to cut your zip tie tournequet every fifteen minutes, then you would need 48 zip ties for twelve hours of use.

[Sparky93]

Perhaps it would be adventageous to practice tying a tourniquet one handed so you would have a reusable tourneqet....

[Rick]

Sarge: Re your question on QuickClot. Hemostatic agents are designed to seal injured blood vessels. Since injuries involving arteries or veins of the torso are primarily the really big, deep arteries/veins such as the Aorta or the Inferior Vena Cava and the lesser blood vessels of the torso you are not going to be able to seal them using such products. You would have to get inside the abdomen to stem the flow of blood since sealing it at the skin level still allows the injury to fill the abdomen with blood. You don't have that underlying cavern with the extremities so hemostasis can be achieved there. Would I try it on someone if I thought they were going to bleed to death? Yeah, probably. Would it work? Probably not.

Crash - Your internet suggestion was really good. That could work quite well for anyone on here that is alone and would like some back up assurance that they won't lay injured somewhere for days. Even PMing someone with the information would be good.

I don't think I would resort to a tourniquet if I were by myself. Cinch it down and pass out and you could loose a leg or arm. Come to the next day and release it and the toxins that would be released into your body could kill you pretty quickly. If you lost a hand, arm or leg I certainly would but paracord and a stick will work if you have to use one. Compression first, Compression and hemostatic agent if needed. That's how I would do it anyway.

[crashdive123]

Sarge - in the last first aid class I took (last year) with the Jacksonville Fire & Rescue Department we discussed tourniquets. As I think most here know - they are intended for a last resort. The point that was driven home often was - once you put it on, it stays on. Don't loosen it. Don't remove it. Don't cover it. Check for a pulse in the extremity. If there is none, the tourniquet is working. Write on the body (forehead if you are applying it to somebody) the time that it is put on. There is a good chance that the extremity will be lost, but it will prevent shock and death through blood loss. Here is the one the military is currently using.

http://medgadget.com/2005/07/the_special_ope.html

Edit - in the 31 years experience that this EMT had, he said that he had not run across bleeding that he could not stop with direct pressure and pressure points. I asked him about Quick Clot - he said he has it in all of his first aid kits, but didn't teach it as part of the "approved curriculum".

[Sarge47]

Sarge - in the last first aid class I took (last year) with the Jacksonville Fire & Rescue Department we discussed tourniquets. As I think most here know - they are intended for a last resort. The point that was driven home often was - once you put it on, it stays on. Don't loosen it. Don't remove it. Don't cover it. Check for a pulse in the extremity. If there is none, the tourniquet is working. Write on the body (forehead if you are applying it to somebody) the time that it is put on. There is a good chance that the extremity will be lost, but it will prevent shock and death through blood loss. Here is the one the military is currently using.

http://medgadget.com/2005/07/the_special_ope.html

Edit - in the 31 years experience that this EMT had, he said that he had not run across bleeding that he could not stop with direct pressure and pressure points. I asked him about Quick Clot - he said he has it in all of his first aid kits, but didn't teach it as part of the "approved curriculum".

Well I admit that what I know about Tourniquet is "old school," but leaving the T. on until help arrives could kill the patient once it's released causing the toxins to rush into the body, as Rick suggested. In the military, usually there is more than one person and it's not a solo operation, so the injured person could concievably receive medical treatment than somebody injured and by themselves in the Alaskan Wilderness, right?

[crashdive123]

These were civilians that were teaching the course. IMO and the opinion of the instructor - if you make the decision to apply a tourniquet, you have made the decision that the extremity cannot be saved.

[Rick]

The downside of tourniquets, and I've argued this before, is you are not just cutting off blood flow but also cutting off the lymphatic system and applying pressure to underlying muscle structures and nerves. Any or all of those could be damaged when you use a tourniquet depending on location, amount of pressure and how long it is left on.

[CuriousBear]

Sarge: Re your question on QuickClot. Hemostatic agents are designed to seal injured blood vessels. Since injuries involving arteries or veins of the torso are primarily the really big, deep arteries/veins such as the Aorta or the Inferior Vena Cava and the lesser blood vessels of the torso you are not going to be able to seal them using such products. You would have to get inside the abdomen to stem the flow of blood since sealing it at the skin level still allows the injury to fill the abdomen with blood. You don't have that underlying cavern with the extremities so hemostasis can be achieved there. Would I try it on someone if I thought they were going to bleed to death? Yeah, probably. Would it work? Probably not.

Quick Clot heats up quick and REALLY hot. The Quick Clot the USMC used to use ended up burning the hands of the Marines and Corpsman using it. We have since moved on to using Quick Clot Gauze. It works the same way but can be used much more effectivly, since theres less prep time needed. (wipeing away excess blood, ect). If your going to keep using the powder, you need to take the time to make sure you know what your doing, and not adding to the EMT's problem of figuring out what the heck happend to you.

As far as tourniquets go, a pressure dressing works by A; applying pressure to the vessels that are dammaged to make them stop bleeding, and B; aiding the clotting factor already in your blood by keeping the flow of blood from washing it away. If the injury is bad enough, applying a tourniquet to slow the flow, but not stop it, would help the pressure dressing do its job. I think that's where the 15 rule should be applide. that way the dressing has had the time to help form a clott that wont be shaken off.

Zip ties make ok field expedient tourniquets, but a good one needs to be at least an inch wide. That way the pressure applide by the tourniquet is spread out and the doctor you go to can try to save a little more and the artificial leg you now own only need go from the knee down instead of mid thigh.

[Rick]

No it doesn't. It used to but that was the old formula. QuikClot now comes in a sponge format that resolved the problem of rotor wash blowing the QuikClot out of the wound or missing the wound altogether when pouring it. It's available for military and civilian application. The Gauze that you reference is available for military application only. There is no powder formula anymore.

This is the civilian version.

http://www.shepherdsurvival.com/product_images/a/765/QuickClot25_two__56463_zoom.jpg

This is the combat gauge.

http://www.itstactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/quikclot-combat-gauze1-228x300.jpg

[CuriousBear]

No it doesn't. It used to but that was the old formula. QuikClot now comes in a sponge format the resolved the problem of rotor wash blowing the QuikClot out of the wound or missing the wound altogether when pouring it.

Consider me schooled

[Rick]

No problem. I get schooled every day. Or try to. That's one of the cool things about this place, I think. We help each other along.

[rwc1969]

Perhaps it would be adventageous to practice tying a tourniquet one handed so you would have a reusable tourneqet....

Perhaps use a slip knot? and for the duct tape SD, maybe put some on some waxed paper, lol. or put the roll on your gun barrel or a stick and pull with the good hand?

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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