The End of civilization

[gordy]

I was thinking certain possibilities recently, that went way beyond economic collapse and social upheaval.
What if we are about to experience the end of our civilization, as we know it.

The best way to prepare would be to live in a community that was prepared, with it's own currency, economy, government, military, law enforcement and legal system in place.
A community not overly connected with the society that was about to fall apart.

A village of like minded people all with different skills and all with the same protective mindset for the whole village.
An attack on one member is an attack on the whole village, because it weakens the village if members are lost.

Individuals could find it hard to survive even if they think they are self sufficient.
No one can be truly self sufficient for the long term, because at some stage they will have to rely on some external resources.

The people that will survive the worst case scenarios will live in community, not the lone wolves.

I have seen communities survive the worst economic destruction. They just created there own currency, and issued it to each member of the community as a dividend.
People sold their primary produce in that currency and sold their labor and crafts in that currency.
Some communities today sell 50% of their produce in their own currency, and the other 50% in the countries currency. So when they see that their nations currency is hyper inflated or reduced from circulation in a depression, they can easily transition fully to their own currency.

Paper money and even gold and silver have no value if there are no products to buy and sell. You can't eat gold, and paper is only slightly more nutritional, so really a community can decide what currency they trade their goods and services in.

In the depression the money supply was contracted by the banks and millions starved to death. Many starved to death in America, when there was plenty of food and products but very little money in the system.
A community can issue it's own currency and sell it's own produce and labor in that currency.

I asked one man where they got there gas to run their cars since their was no oil refinery in their system.
He just pointed to the olive trees and said they made bio diesel to fuel their cars. And the river powered their homes with electricity.
The electricity will be sold in the local currency too eventually as more people use it.

Anyway it makes sense to live in community, a community that produces all kinds of products and primary products, to sell in it's local currency.

An individual can only do so much preparation, and he will eventually fall way short in the worst case scenarios.

You can either have the mindset that boards the doors and windows and shoots the scavengers that come begging, or you could be a little more intelligent and community oriented producing food and products that help the whole community.

You can't produce everything yourself, but a community can produce a much greater amount and variety, that far exceeds an individuals best efforts.
You can't stay awake 24/7 to defend your property, but a community sure can.

Unfortunately today many are not so community oriented, and are immature lone wolf Johnny rambos, that only think of themselves. The Modern mentality has trained people to be individualistic, selfish, vain and uncaring.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the real SHTF scenario, and who truly is prepared.

[Rick]

I live in just such a community. It's called America. It's a cool place, too.

[gordy]

I live in just such a community. It's called America. It's a cool place, too.

What do you mean?

[Sarge47]

Printing your own currency? Backed by what? Back in the 1800s banks all printed there own currency, it got to be such a hassle trying to spend it outside the community that the US decided that they would print the currency, backed by Silver & Gold reserves, that would be accepted anywhere in the nation. Sounds like a 'throw-back" situation to me. :cool2:

[Rick]

The best way to prepare would be to live in a community that was prepared, with it's own currency, economy, government, military, law enforcement and legal system in place.


A village of like minded people all with different skills and all with the same protective mindset for the whole village. An attack on one member is an attack on the whole village, because it weakens the village if members are lost.


Individuals could find it hard to survive even if they think they are self sufficient. No one can be truly self sufficient for the long term, because at some stage they will have to rely on some external resources.

You've just described America.

[Pal334]

"I have seen communities survive the worst economic destruction. They just created there own currency, and issued it to each member of the community as a dividend."

Where is this community, and when did it exist?

Otherwise, I agree with Rick, you have just described the great old U.S. of A.

[crashdive123]

I too would be curious to know which communities that you have seen that have created their own currency to issue to members of the community.

[Sarge47]

I too would be curious to know which communities that you have seen that have created their own currency to issue to members of the community.
It was in the Star Wars movie: "Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace." On the planet Tatoonine. Remember this line? "Republic credits are no good here." Sheesh, don't you guys watch anything? :nono:

[Sarge47]

Leave us not forget the Civil war when the South issued there own money. If you go back to the 1800s you can find different sources of currencies existed, but that's as far as it goes. Hey, is this like the "Spud Compound" up in Idaho? :sneaky2: :innocent: :confused1: :cool2:

[BENESSE]

There's always bartering. It has been around for thousands of years and it still works. Just make sure you have something useful to barter with. Leave your money under the mattress.

[Sourdough]

make sure you have something useful to barter with.

Or you might end up like the sexy 28 year old lady, marketing Senior Vice President in "One Second After".

[crashdive123]

I'm just curious. I doubt he's been to some planetary system in a galaxy far, far away and doubt he is old enough to have been around during the civil war. He said:
I have seen communities survive the worst economic destruction. They just created there own currency, and issued it to each member of the community as a dividend. I would like to know where and when.

I agree with much of the post, and as Rick and Pal have said - kind of describes what we are doing now.

[Camp10]

I too would be curious to know which communities that you have seen that have created their own currency to issue to members of the community.

Ooooh, I know the answer... It's Chuck E Cheese! They give you tokens and they are good for all games and toys inside the store!!

[Rick]

There actually is a lot of private currency being printed. All legal and all above board. I've personally seen it when I was a kid. The coal mines owned a good number of the mercantile stores and they issued tokens that were paid to employees so they could spend them in the Mercantile. That was in the '50s and I don't think the practice continued into the '60s. The employees got wise I guess but I still have some of the tokens.

Beyond that, there are several communities printing currency today. Berkshares is one such currency.

http://www.berkshares.org/

I don't know whether Gordy has seen it and it would be good to offer up an answer. All of these ideals look good on paper but it's a different story when implementing it. Any Revolutionary War Vet could tell you that.

[Sarge47]

There actually is a lot of private currency being printed. All legal and all above board. I've personally seen it when I was a kid. The coal mines owned a good number of the mercantile stores and they issued tokens that were paid to employees so they could spend them in the Mercantile. That was in the '50s and I don't think the practice continued into the '60s. The employees got wise I guess but I still have some of the tokens.

Beyond that, there are several communities printing currency today. Berkshares is one such currency.

http://www.berkshares.org/

I don't know whether Gordy has seen it and it would be good to offer up an answer. All of these ideals look good on paper but it's a different story when implementing it. Any Revolutionary War Vet could tell you that.
Very interesting, Rick, what do they back it up with? Gold? Silver?

[crashdive123]

I know that some communities have done this here in the United States. Been going on a long time. Not all that different from S&H Green Stamps (well, OK - it's different). Gordy indicated that he has seen it and implied that he has seen it more than once. He even said that he talked to people that were doing it. All of this is certainly possible. But - couple those statements with saying that he has seen communities survive the worst economic destruction by doing this?????? Again - curious as to when(s) and where(s).

[Rick]

Sarge - There is nothing backing the currency. Just the good faith of those utilizing that form of currency. Fiat money is no different and neither is gold or silver for that matter. All of it is arbitrarily assigned a price by a board that governs that particular form of payment. All any of it is, is a more convenient form of barter.

Crash - Agreed. That's why I'd like to see him offer up an answer as well. Maybe that has been done many times in Australia. I don't know if it has or not.

[Sarge47]

While I agree with both Crash & Rick about the op's statement regarding viewing precidents regarding communities, I still think that the "currency issue" should be examined by the op as well. Gordy, you can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_currency#Continental_currency :cool2:

[hunter63]

No, I do not want to join a like minded community.....after the OP's opening statement, that generally comes next, after a couple of "amens, amens" that is.

[bobzilla]

People form "communities" daily,they collect capital,talent,products,goods,services,etc.
After pooling these resources they form a corporation,and issue shares.
The value of these shares is measured in the productivity,goods,services,etc.

[BENESSE]

Or you might end up like the sexy 28 year old lady, marketing Senior Vice President in "One Second After".

She made it, didn't she? (no, it's not what comes to mind!)
If you don't have skills, you better have ball$.

[aflineman]

There is a Collective commune just west of here that prints their own currency. A couple of shops in town take it in trade for some goods (mostly food). Local Farmers market takes it also. About the only place I could spend any (if I was interested) would be the farmer's market. The baked goods that the collective sells don't interest me.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/lighthouse-center-bakery-umpqua

[Sourdough]

She made it, didn't she? (no, it's not what comes to mind!)
If you don't have skills, you better have ball$.

No she want to trade sex for food. She was turned away, and with-in a week she was dead.

[BENESSE]

No she want to trade sex for food. She was turned away, and with-in a week she was dead.

You are right. I mixed up the women. I was thinking of the one who stayed and helped out at the infirmary (she wasn't a nurse) and ultimately got together with the main character.

That was a great book, btw.

[Beans]

No she want to trade sex for food. She was turned away, and with-in a week she was dead.

Sourdough- You would remember that part-- LOL

[kyratshooter]

No she want to trade sex for food. She was turned away, and with-in a week she was dead.

And people actually base their survival preps on this book/movie??

If I remember right this event took place in Georgia. Knowing several men from Georgia I must ask,

How ugly was this chick?

When I hear the term "Like minded people" it always reminds me of a used car salesman I once knew who started every sales pitch with "I'm just an ole country boy!" just before he took your money. Usually more than you should have given him.

Like minded people, all thinking alike. They could all be right, but what if they are all wrong?

According to Patton "If everyone is thinking alike someone isn't thinking!"

As for the "company script" Rick mentioned. that form of currency was used in place of U.S. currency to maintain control of the work force. The script was only good in the company store or usually in the "company town". You could not leave town and spend it so you were forced to purchase goods at inflated prices in the company business.

More than likely you were simply paying for goods and services you have bought on credit and you never got ahead of your debt load.

Tennessee Erny Ford sang the song 16 tons from this experience.

"St Peter don't you call me cause I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store."

The system was called pionage and is illigal now, but the use of nonstandard currency was at it's core.

The term gave rise to the word pion and peasant (people that were owned by the farm they worked). It is also the root word for our term Pioneer (one who is sacrificed). In the Roman army the pioneers were the crews of slaves that were sent to cut roads throught the forest with axes so the Roman roads could be built. They were ahead of the army, with no protection. They were preyed on by the natives and bandits and not expected to return from their mission.

[BENESSE]

And people actually base their survival preps on this book/movie??


Don't know if anyone bases their survival preps on this book or not, but the book gives you something to think about. That's all.
IMO, it lays out a sequence of events in a fairly realistic way and people's behavior at different stages is easy to imagine. Nothing over the top really. And it takes place in NC, not GA.

[finallyME]

I am with many others who want to know the details of which communities the OP has seen survive economic disasters by creating currency.

As to the actual topic, I agree. A community is better off than being alone. I think I live in such a community.

[Shalako]

Some very good points in your post. The possibility of surving long term in the wilds alone is queationable. Practically no one is truly prepared to survive in the wilderness long term. Going out for the Weekend or even during vcation is not a good test.+There re likely some people in the wilds of Alaska who have a chance, but few others

[hunter63]

OK, I guess I have to ask,...... Gordy, where are you going with this?

I was truly waiting for the "word" on how you have the answer for this dilemma.

Most people that bring this up want to sell you a "share in such a community....

[gordy]

I too would be curious to know which communities that you have seen that have created their own currency to issue to members of the community.

The pacific island communities, and in the Philipines with local currencies, not national currencies.

There are many other places that these have happened anyway.

People still think gold and silver are the only way money has value, but they are misunderstanding what money is.

Products are what give money value, not gold and silver.

Gold and silver have no value without products, or people willing to exchange products for gold and silver.

The important thing is to have primary products first, and then you can exchange it for any currency you want.

Gold won't be worth anything in a national famine, but food will, and local communities can trade food they grow, in a local currency.

Why does the local currency have value, because the local community only sells their products, and primary products in that local currency.
Plant Oil, wool, timber, milk, wheat, clay bricks, meat, fish, eggs, and Labor etc, etc. All these are primary products, that are sold in the local currency say the Florin. The towns in that area all trade in the florin for their products. The florin supply depends only on the rate of production, not on the rate of the printing press.

Americas problem is not that the currency is not backed by gold and silver, but that the money supply has exceeded production.
One dollar in 1900 could buy you a hell of a lot more than a dollar today.

The central banks print off more money than the actual rate of production, infact they have stopped releasing the reports detailing the amount of issued currency.

A community can bypass the government and central banks inflationary debt money, and trade in their own currency that maintains it's value.

[Winter]

Ammo is our future currency. I had to post in this thread for some reason.

[gordy]

OK, I guess I have to ask,...... Gordy, where are you going with this?

I was truly waiting for the "word" on how you have the answer for this dilemma.

Most people that bring this up want to sell you a "share in such a community....

Local currencies have worked for thousands of years, there is absolutely nothing new in what I am talking about. But it is a new idea in some peoples heads however, and many people misunderstand money.

When currencies collapse or contract, there can be still just as many products, but the problem is the under or over supply of money.

All that a community or province has to do is maintain the balance between production and money supply, it is that simple.

The lawlessness of the central banks fractional reserve banking and reckless quantitive easing (printing money), is destroying the currency, and the nation.

It's best local communities create their own currencies to supply their own needs.

Issuing a community dividend to each member as the rate of production increases.

The elderly get issued their dividend so that they can survive, no one has to suffer for lack of currency.

New Money is issued in proportion to the rate of production, directly to each member of the community with the dividend.

I am not selling a share in a community, I am sharing a concept, a concept fast approaching it's time.

Communities offer the best way of surviving long term.

You can have doctors, surgeons, dentists, metal workers, farmers, butchers, bakers, candle stick makers, police, scientists, engineers and a whole range of others in a community that can assist you to survive.

All these people can offer their skills and services in the local currency, the whole community can continue no matter what happens to the national currency.

[crashdive123]

Not sure how it is in Australia for you, but as has been stated - we live in a community and we have a local currency.

[gordy]

Ammo is our future currency. I had to post in this thread for some reason.

No ammo is a good which you purchase with the currency.

If people don't understand money, it's going to get pretty barbaric, pretty quickly.

High concepts just aren't grasped by many these days, so Im not really holding much hope on the future events.

[gordy]

Not sure how it is in Australia for you, but as has been stated - we live in a community and we have a local currency.

Ok. So you have a stable non debt, non inflationary local currency, excellent.

Here I was thinking that you had a debt based, inflationary national currency.

Boy was I wrong.

[Rick]

Okay, I'll play along. Fiat money is only a convenient method of barter. That's it. There was a time in our history in which there were many versions of currency and it wrecked havoc on the economy. Both locally and internationally. We have a saying which has become a bit dated but is true none-the-less. "Not worth a continental", which was the federal form of currency along side currency that was printed by the states and even localities. "Not worth a dollar" could be a current phrase of sarcasm.

Let's assume you build the community you envision and let's also assume you begin printing your money and your town runs entirely on your local currency. Let's also assume I have the one thing your community needs, edible crocus fannies, or whatever you think your community needs. I know you're a generous guy and you're willing to pay me a premium for crocus fannies because they are so well liked. We meet over coffee and you offer to pay me 25,000 gordies for just 50 pounds of crocus fannies. Sorry, but I don't take gordies. I only deal in rickies. Now, if you have 50,000 rickies I'll be happy to deliver those crocus fannies.

Not only will you run into individuals, companies or groups outside of your community that will not deal with you because of your local currency there is no established or uniform agreement on what your currency is worth outside of your community. That's why all countries have a uniform, national currency. That's why financial boards meet to set the price or value on those currencies. Your currency can work just fine in your community but the first time you need something your community does not or cannot produce you're hosed.

[LowKey]

At which point you break out the goods upon which your Gordies are based and see if those can be exchanged for crocus fannies. We're back to barter.

[gordy]

At which point you break out the goods upon which your Gordies are based and see if those can be exchanged for crocus fannies. We're back to barter.


Okay, I'll play along. Fiat money is only a convenient method of barter. That's it. There was a time in our history in which there were many versions of currency and it wrecked havoc on the economy. Both locally and internationally. We have a saying which has become a bit dated but is true none-the-less. "Not worth a continental", which was the federal form of currency along side currency that was printed by the states and even localities. "Not worth a dollar" could be a current phrase of sarcasm.

Let's assume you build the community you envision and let's also assume you begin printing your money and your town runs entirely on your local currency. Let's also assume I have the one thing your community needs, edible crocus fannies, or whatever you think your community needs. I know you're a generous guy and you're willing to pay me a premium for crocus fannies because they are so well liked. We meet over coffee and you offer to pay me 25,000 gordies for just 50 pounds of crocus fannies. Sorry, but I don't take gordies. I only deal in rickies. Now, if you have 50,000 rickies I'll be happy to deliver those crocus fannies.

Not only will you run into individuals, companies or groups outside of your community that will not deal with you because of your local currency there is no established or uniform agreement on what your currency is worth outside of your community. That's why all countries have a uniform, national currency. That's why financial boards meet to set the price or value on those currencies. Your currency can work just fine in your community but the first time you need something your community does not or cannot produce you're hosed.

I'm not talking about what can't be traded in local currency, Im talking about what can.

Local currency can operate as a parallel currency. That's why I saw farmers and businesses selling their produce in 25% to 75% local currency and the rest in the national currency.
Some people were paid entirely in local currency and all of their basic needs of life were covered.
There was no inflation in the local currency, and even the poorest had real buying power with local currency.

Local currency is real money that can buy real goods, and services.

I'm not talking about a theoretical idea, this is already working around the world. Necessity has dictated that local currency was created.
As national currencies collapse or become scarce local currencies were created so that people still could trade goods and services and get paid.

Many countries are facing the destruction of their national currencies, but depends on them whether they have local currencies to soften the blow.

[gordy]

I'm not talking about what can't be traded in local currency, Im talking about what can.

Local currency can operate as a parallel currency. That's why I saw farmers and businesses selling their produce in 25% to 75% local currency and the rest in the national currency.
Some people were paid entirely in local currency and all of their basic needs of life were covered.
There was no inflation in the local currency, and even the poorest had real buying power with local currency.

Local currency is real money that can buy real goods, and services.

I'm not talking about a theoretical idea, this is already working around the world. Necessity has dictated that local currency was created.
As national currencies collapse or become scarce local currencies were created so that people still could trade goods and services and get paid.

Many countries are facing the destruction of their national currencies, but it depends on them whether they have local currencies to soften the blow.


As for the continental dollar, it is an example of what Im talking about. The issuing of currency over the proportion of production devalues any currency.

Ok, what would you do if your economy went into hyperinflation.$ 2000 for a loaf of bread, and you only get paid the average wage of $1500 a week.

Wouldn't it be good to know that farmers in your area are trading in local currency that can't be inflated. They sell their wheat to the local baker in local currency the baker sells bread to you in local currency.

Local currencies have saved lives in hyper inflation and depressions with a contraction of the money supply.

People can still buy and sell the basics of life, even when their national currency is wiped out.

So it's $2000 for a loaf of bread, and you earn $1500 a week. But you also earn money in local currency doing something else. Say 500 gordies a week.

Bread still costs 1 gordy fifty, but the national currency has hyper inflated to unusability.

The idea is to have multiple means of trade or getting paid.

The reason your local currency has value is because you are willing to work for that currency and buy and sell in that currency.

How would you want to pay for your loaf of bread in 2000 American dollars, or 1.50 gordies?

When hyperinflation starts, you are going to thank your lucky moon beams that your district trades in local currency.
All that is produced in the district can be bought with local currency. And you can sell what ever you grow or make, in local currency, or sell your labor in local currency.

Primary products and locally manufactured products can all be traded in local currency.

[gordy]

Printing your own currency? Backed by what? Back in the 1800s banks all printed there own currency, it got to be such a hassle trying to spend it outside the community that the US decided that they would print the currency, backed by Silver & Gold reserves, that would be accepted anywhere in the nation. Sounds like a 'throw-back" situation to me. :cool2:

Even gold and silver is of little value. And when gold becomes scarcer it creates a depression, because their is less currency in the system.
This limits the growth of the economy to the amount of gold or silver, not to the over all amount of production.

You don't want to limit the economy to the amount of gold or silver you can mine.

People just don't get it. They'll say things like what's the money backed by.

The dollar isn't backed by anything now yet it is still operating as a currency.

What backs a currency is production.

Getting products from a to b is the ultimate aim and end of currency.

Currency is backed by products, seems like an impossible concept to get across to some.

If a currency is issued in proportion to the rate of production, it maintains perfect value whether it is paper money, gold, or fiddlesticks.

[gordy]

Printing your own currency?

No, issuing your own currency, there's a big difference.

It is issued only as products are created, it is not just printed off, like the federal reserve is now doing.

Every unit of local currency has an associated amount of production attached to it. A product was physically created for the currency to come into existence.
That way no more money is created than goods produced. No inflation, no debt. That way an economy can grow naturally as it produces.

[cowgirlup]

I checked out the Berkshares on their website. It just looks like people are trading US dollars for them. So if they are backed by US dollars and the system tanks they would be worthless as well.

Time mentions a few others.

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1865467,00.html

The only one that might hold value is the liberty dollar IMO.

[kyratshooter]

You guys do realize that the U.S. Constitution Article 1 section 8

Gives the congress the power to regulate the acceptance and value of all currency inside the U.S.

They can even set the value of forign currency against the U.S. dollar instead of allowing the free market to do so.

They can also set the standard for weights and measure and establish their value.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

Alternative systems exist at the will of the government. As soon as they threaten the stability of the currency or the control of the givernment they will be declared illigal.

Even barter is greatly controlled by the weights and measures control. The government can declare a pound as 10 oz. if they wish, shorten a mile or strech a yard of fabric.

Few folks realize that there is no "standard" for our English weights and measures. The figures we use are arbatrary amounts based on official metric standards. A foot is so much % of a meter, a pound is so much % of a kilo and a pint is so much % of a liter.

They can mess with your barter system any time they want too.

[Rick]

Gordy, I don't understand why you think local currencies are inflation proof. That's a fallacy. If we live in the same community and I am the only baker accepting gordies then I call the shots on baked goods. If I charge 3 gordies for a load of bread that's based on my ability to acquire wheat, sugar, milk, salt and yeast not to mention my payments for electricity and natural gas to make the bread. At some point acquisition has to occur outside the community. That might be fuel, electricity or natural gas. But we'll assume all of that is in house. This week bread is 6 gordies. Why? Because I just got a bill from Doctor Bones for my appendectomy and he charged me 2000 Gordies. You want bread? It's 6 Gordies. That's inflation.

But it's clear you have a set idea on this and even facts won't sway you so let us know how it works out.

[LowKey]

And you can't just 'use' local currency. You have to 'earn' it somehow. If I don't even have a loaf of bread to trade, how am I going to enter your market system?

[sushidog]

I think it's a false assumption that when (not if) the economy collapses due to hyperinflation, there will be some form of calm transition and everyone will accept the "official" federal, state or local currency offered, whether they be dollars or gordys. Americans won't calmly starve, as has happened with other cultures. Most if not all will take action (violent if necessary) to get what they need. Many will take as much as they can, not just what they need. I've seen it happen after a societal colapse. There are many (mostly urbanites) who have never produced anything a day in their life, who have existed so far off the labors of others - not just at the lower rungs of society, but at nearly all levels. These cannot adapt. Living off of one's labors and within one's means is completely alien to them. They will surely die, but will take many producers with them first. It's far easier to loot a store or shoot a farmer and steal his crop than produce anything themselves. It's all they know and they feel entitled to the property of others by the very nature of their existence.

I lived in LA during the Rodney King riots and survived Katrina just north of New Orleans. When society fails it happens overnight. You can only keep what you can defend. The good news is that this transitional period will probably be temporary. Of course this is a relative term which can mean weeks, months or years, but eventually order will be restored - however with a much lower ending population. If there is a national emergency/collapse I suggest that fixed communities, especially smaller ones would become targets of large organized or semi-organized forces. This would come about either through force of arms or govt. coercion, similar to what we see today in the middle east, and to a lesser scale, within our own land. Whether your goods are stolen by the tax man or the soldier, the results are the same. The solution then will be the same as it is today - protect or hide your assets so they don't become a target, moving them as necessary to keep them safe. Survival will depend on flexability and adaptability rather than fixed strength, hardened fortifications and inflexible, commited preparations - at least if you want to maintain some degree of freedom. If not, join the horde, eat your issued rations, sleep behind your walls, and be prepared to make whatever sacrifice your owners demand.

Just remember that the ultimate trade metal is lead, delivered precisely, in small quantities at high velocities. Ammo will always get you food, since like food, it brings life or death. In that context, bullets are the ultimate currency. This is one instance where it is far better to give than to receive.

Chip

[Rick]

Chip - You need to polish that crystal ball. It has smudge prints on it again.

[sushidog]

Rick, no one knows the future - that's for sure. But planning for things that I've already seen happen in my life, and extrapolating on worst case scenarios that might happen given the right circumstances (even if the probability may seem low to some), I consider prudent, and conservative. IMHO. This is the reason we buy insurance. No?

Chip

[Mtman]

Hmmmm "ending of civilization" yea.. I can see it coming around the corner too, and I hardly think my social security checks will still be coming in the mail when the country falls down into a depression levels. So I'd not be too worried about using any kind of money, or finding stores with food still left on the shelves a few days after a major shutdown... [You wouldn't believe how many 18 wheeler truck food into the larger cities every day.]
Personally, I think it would be better to head for the hurricane shelter until the Storm blew over..

For what it's worth, I think 2012 will be the year of Redemption, [a reckoning of sorts], and as 2012 comes into the 4th quarter, there will be another event similar to the 9-11 deception.. [the planes didn't take down the trade towers], it was demolition from within and timed for the deception simulated attack.

Shortly afterward, the markets will soar south..major shut down and social panic will trigger rioting..then spread of real Chaos will result..
~This coupled with violent weather & storms causing great lose of life in different parts of the world, then Yellowstone will blow and bring death within a 300 miles radius, low elevation coastal area's will be become deadly places to live, too many bodies won't get buried, plaque's & famine resulting, these events strung out over a 4 yrs period of time will pretty much put the survivors back in the Danial Boone days... depopulation of the world will pretty much be finished by 2016.

Most of the wealthy will survive in their D.U.M.B.'s and will later emerge to try to take over the entire world, so comes the stories of struggles between good and evil.. between the survivors and the re-empowerment of the world controllers who wants the few souls left to become their work slaves,
To rebuild and support their lifestyles again, they'll offer candy to the babies and bread to the hungry to regain control again, crying New World Order is here and it's Great!! ~ The survivors will lose some battles, but ultimately win the war..then true Freedom & Peace will prevail...
Anyone want to trade a crystal ball for a sack of Potatoes? :-}

[Rick]

What channel is that on?

[sushidog]

Wow, I thought I was a pessimist! Natural disasters, such as a supervolcano, meteor strike, etc. could well percipitate a collapse, in a world on the financial edge. However I think we could so a good job of it all by ourselves, without any outside assistance. Let's hope the inevitable doesn't happen in our lifetime. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. :)

Chip

[JPGreco]

Your statement that production backs currency is flawed. It's not the production of a country that dictates it's currency value. If that was true, the most valuable currencies over the last 20 years would have been from third world countries because they were the ones "producing" everything. Ever notice how much crap is made in china?

So then why was it that for the last 60 years, the US Dollar has been one of the top strongest currencies in the world? The answer is has to do with political stability, outside perspective, national stability and growth potential, natural resources, etc, etc, etc,..

Why is the single most valuable currency in the world from kuwait? They aren't a production power house. Can't say it's because of their oil since their total production is only a fraction of the overall world market. I've never seen anything marked "made in kuwait". So clearly it's not production based.

In reality, currencies were only created to make bartering simpler. Local communities, as you've stated, created a currency for it's people so they could barter without having to carry all of their goods at all times. But as pointed out, one community may not value another community's currency, so federal levels of currency were created. Now in the current world market, very large financial institutions value all of the world's currencies againts each other and you have the exchange rates. Though, no matter what any financial instutition says, no matter what any political or economical analyst says, the currency in your pocket is only worth what the person you want something from is willing to accept for their goods or service. It's the essence of bartering. To reach a reasonably fair exchange. Currency actually complicates that and takes control from the individual.

Any community that wastes their resources printing currency in a post apocalyptic world is not one I would want to be part of. I'd rather deal directly with the stuff that has real value to me, not a piece of paper.

[Rick]

JP - He doesn't plan on printing his own currency just issuing it (see post 42). There is a big difference.

[JPGreco]

OH, OH... OOOOHHHH... Now I understand... lol

Ok, basic lesson on consumerism. 99% of all goods and services are considered perishable (though the term changes based on life expectancy of the actual good). In a small community in a PSHTF scenario, all goods and services will be perishable. Namely food items and basic services. So, I grow some vegetables and bring them to you to issue me my currency. What happens when those veggies are eaten? Now there is currency in the market and no matching product to back its value. Same goes for livestock. Once the good or service disappears from the market how are you going to get the corresponding currency out? Based on your idea, soon there will be a huge amount of printed currency in the market and limited goods. That is basically inflation. More and more currency will be in the market with the same amount of goods and services.

The only way to avoid this spiral affect is to tighten the currency availability. Meaning either you start paying less for the goods and services when brought to you, which will drive me to competitors for a while, or you purchase available currency with goods and hold it back. Hmm, that sounds an awful lot like what the federal reserve does on a daily basis.

I would like to hear specific examples of tribes that use a form of currency; who they are, where they are found in the world, what that currency is, and how it is used in their culture.

[Rick]

Cripes! Would you slow down. I only have so many crayons to take notes!

[JPGreco]

Don't worry, I have nothing more to say until I get response. I've pointed out the basic flaws, as did others, in a very microeconomy trying to issue its own form of currency.

Save your crayons though, this won't be on the test.

[shiftyer1]

I think that an alternative currency could be a possiblity if and when this country goes to hell but I don't think it would be an immediate thing. I think we'll go thru at least a couple of years of hell first. Having alternative currency now will do nothing and gain as much respect as the laws of this country will if things go bad. I'm not versed in economics at all aside from how to balance my own budget, and thats not easy. But it seems at this moment our government is arguing how to pay bills because we need to set a new limit on how much money we can borrow to pay bills. Now I know i'm just a country boy but in my house if bills can't get paid we do without, if the wife runs off to borrow money to make those bills it just gets worse. It seems to me our government manages money like my wife, does that mean we're closer to fallin apart then we realize?

Forgive my redneck rambling if I got off topic.

[Rick]

Actually, you asked some really good questions. The government is just like your house. The government takes in revenue (it's salary) and spends money. That revenue comes from our individual taxes (about 45%), social security and medicare payroll taxes, corporate taxes, etc. Next year the feds expect to take in about 2.6 trillion bucks. We'll have to see what the final budget looks like but it will be slightly more than the income. You operate that way too. You bought a house that was probably more than your income so you borrowed money to pay for it. Maybe a car and truck, too. Maybe furniture and so on. Spending more than you make is really not a problem as long as the amount you spend on the arrangements you've made are within your financial ability to pay for it. It's not realistic to believe a government (ours or any) can operate on a cash basis. That's a luxury only you and I can enjoy.

The problems occur two fold. One is down business cycles and one is Congress (yeah!). In a down business cycle people loose their jobs so they no longer pay taxes and the government's income drops. Sometimes drastically. That's one of the things that hit us in 2009-10. The other is the fact that we like "stuff" like keeping our neighbors employed and new super highways and nuclear reactors and whatever. So our Congressmen vote to add those little "entitlements" to bills to spend money to build stuff in our neighborhoods. Let's face it, Congress doesn't vote this crap in because it's needed or because they just love to spend money. They do it because we demand it and they want to keep their jobs. If you live in Seattle you'll welcome the new mega giant military thingie Boeing just won the contract on. I might think it's a big waste of money for me in Indiana but it will keep jobs in Seattle and we love "stuff" in our back yard. Keep spending and the first thing you know you can't pay the principle when the bill comes due. So you make arrangements to just pay the interest on the principle (the bank doesn't care. That's just more money they make on the loan). Keep spending and you start having trouble making the interest payments. Then you either increase revenue (taxes) or decrease spending or both. And that's about where we are today.

And before anyone yammers about printing money that's not the root cause. It's income vs. spending. It is a component in the equation but not the driver.

That's also one of the fallacies inherent in taxing the rich to produce revenue. The "rich" (whatever you define that as for the sake of the bill) have really nice salaries. But more importantly, part of their income is based on stock options or direct stock give aways. You know that stock price is variable so the income of the rich is variable. Not really what you want to base your income on. You build a budget expecting X amount of dollars and when the economy burps the income on the "rich" drops and so does the income you built your budget on. That just perpetuates the problem. The income of the "rich" is the most volatile of any group in the country. Basing taxes on their income is not really very smart.

That's why it's really important to voice your concerns directly to you elected officials (city, county, state and federal). Tell them you don't want "stuff" in our backyard as much as you want the budget brought under control. Tell them you want to reduce spending. If enough of us do then maybe they will get the message. If we don't then it's guaranteed that revenue will have to increase and that means some substantial increases in your TAXES!

That's also part of the reason you won't see an economic collapse. The government, unlike us, doesn't have a fixed income. They can regulate it by raising taxes.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)