View Full Version : a quote to ponder
Pal334
06-30-2011, 06:57 AM
I ran across this today. It delivers a powerful message. I am going to post this in my office, and share it with the kids in my life. I have no illusions that they will grasp it right away (6 and 9 years old), but it is never to early to introduce values.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill
That's a great quote, Pal. The wife and I were discussing the loss of moral character last night. Now with the Supreme Court ruling on violent games you have to wonder just how far the pendulum has to swing before simple values like honesty, truth and being polite become in vogue once again. We are fortunate to still have those willing to stand on the wall for the sake of those same values.
crashdive123
06-30-2011, 07:13 AM
One that I like, that fits well with that quote is:
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Some attribute the quote to George Orwell - there has been debate over who really said it.
BENESSE
06-30-2011, 08:15 AM
Values are instilled at home and reinforced by society. Manners too.
Don't know what happened but both are seriously lacking.
Pal334
06-30-2011, 09:33 AM
B, you are absolutely correct. My kids are grown and at least from what I see, they do the "right thing" even when it is not cool. Now with the Godsons , their parents are teaching them to have good values. I am fortunate in that I can be involved with them almost every day. At 6 and 9, I can see how difficult it is for them to "buck" peer pressure from kids whose parents are not so much into good values. But they seem to be "getting it" and the little guy is obstinate about doing the right thing, he says he does not need to be cool :) . I guess the best we can hope for is one kid at a time.
canid
06-30-2011, 12:55 PM
actually; it's a questionable one which misrepresents the problem.
I don't know of anybody who feels that nothing is worth warfare. on the other hand, a great may problems do not - where fewer others do - actually require it. in order for warfare to be justifiable, the thing being defended must be worth all losses or the gain being sought must be essential to survival and there must be no other way to achieve them.
if you don't meed the conditions, you're committing a mass coordination of murder and theft.
there is no shame, disgrace or lack of patriotism in holding yourself and your nation to that standard, because the nation that does not does not deserve victory.
it is completely reasonable and patriotic to attempt to pressure that government to conduct it's warfare in a way that ensures it is not demanding it's people to do terrible violence, because those rough men are our friends, sons/daughters, fathers/mothers, brothers and sisters and we owe it to them.
how we value the duty and sacrifice of our servicemen and women are a completely separate and unrelated matter from the necessity of a given military action. i wouldn't tolerate the disrespect of those men and women's duty by the naive further than i would tolerate their exploitation by those who know better.
Pal334
06-30-2011, 03:47 PM
I would have to disagree. The quote and intent is directed at an individuals values. It discusses an individuals willingness to "fight" rather than considering the "self". Our populace a growing number of folks like that that consistently put themselves before the greater good. And of course there is also a large number that selflessly serve the greater good.
BENESSE
06-30-2011, 04:03 PM
Pal, I've noticed time and again a huge resistance to the idea of a "greater good" not just in this country, but on the forum as well. I think it's being seen as trampling on individual rights and akin to socialism. This has permeated every walk of life and has pretty much crippled people from being able to empathize and believe in a cause greater than themselves.
Maybe it's due to forced diversity or marginalization of their own needs. I am at a loss to understand this mass shortsightedness.
canid
06-30-2011, 04:26 PM
it possibly stems in more than small part from a lack of consensus regarding what the greater good is, and which actions/efforts serve it. of course; some of it is laziness/apathy too.
Pal334
06-30-2011, 05:18 PM
I think I agree with canid, it is laziness/apathy. Some folks have just gotten used to been given things. They are missing the point that our "land of plenty" and freedoms are not free. Iwas brought up to believe this "Let the troubles come in my times, rather than in the time of my children. Author unknown"
B, you have a good point, some just can not see beyond labels. We need our citizens (children) to be "critical thinkers", able to think through problems and come to their own conclusions. If we do not bring this back, we could be no better than the Former Soviet Union where the citizens act like sheep and still look to the government for everything
JPGreco
06-30-2011, 06:08 PM
The real quote is:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other"
The so called quote you came across is a misrepresentation of what JSM said.
The real version of the quote comes from The Contest for America by JSM, page 683, submitted to the Harpers Monthly Magazine, 1862.
JPGreco
06-30-2011, 06:35 PM
Personally, I like Thomas Paine's quote.
"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."
People forget that freedom has a price and when people forget that and think that it is something they are owed or something someone is suppose to give them, they start to lose those freedoms.
And this one from Samuel Adams is pretty awesome:
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
canid
06-30-2011, 06:37 PM
The original essay (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1458278), Courtesy of Project Gutenburg.
Pal334
06-30-2011, 06:41 PM
The real quote is:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other"
The so called quote you came across is a misrepresentation of what JSM said.
The real version of the quote comes from The Contest for America by JSM, page 683, submitted to the Harpers Monthly Magazine, 1862.
Thank you for the correction. They are truely words from a wise man.
JPGreco
06-30-2011, 06:52 PM
Not a problem, I just knew that the short version has an awful omission that changes the true meaning of the quote. It neglects the fact that what should be fought for must be just, though I know that concepts meaning is also left to personal interpretation. Though I do agree that the overall meaning of some things are worth fighting for is without a doubt, a true statement.
I actually remember arguing with someone on this subject, that nothing is worth violence or something like that.
Me: fine, I'm coming over and taking everything you own and because you don't believe in violence you won't do anything to stop me.
Them: Then I will call the cops.
Me: I will shoot at the cops if they come. So by you calling them, you are the cause of a violent event because you know the outcome before you call. That the only way for the police to return your stuff to you is by engaging in violence with me. If nothing was worth violence, you would hand your stuff over.
Yeah, I can't stand people like that...
your_comforting_company
06-30-2011, 10:35 PM
I point out more and more often, to my kids and others who might be around, when something strikes me as "egocentric" whether it's a person's way of thinking, or some action that has taken place. someone griping about something being "inconvenient" or road rage.. good examples of what I'm talking about.
After working with bees for a short while now, I see each individual, selflessly serve a greater good, willing to sacrifice it's own life to preserve the population. This is the thing I would like to show people.
Even a simple insect understands the concept of "worth fighting for".
BENESSE
06-30-2011, 10:52 PM
As a society, we've "evolved" into selfishness that's constantly being reinforced. Going back would take an act of God. Literally.
JPGreco
06-30-2011, 10:58 PM
I point out more and more often, to my kids and others who might be around, when something strikes me as "egocentric" whether it's a person's way of thinking, or some action that has taken place. someone griping about something being "inconvenient" or road rage.. good examples of what I'm talking about.
After working with bees for a short while now, I see each individual, selflessly serve a greater good, willing to sacrifice it's own life to preserve the population. This is the thing I would like to show people.
Even a simple insect understands the concept of "worth fighting for".
I'm pretty most, if not all, of us have been guilty of having those thoughts. I don't mind people griping about things that bother them, as long as they aren't letting it consume them. People need to vent IMO. Most of the time when they vent, they feel better afterwards. Road rage, some people are insane, which is definitely bad. I just cant stand crappy drivers. There are some things in life that you have no control over that are aggravating and thats ok.
When I think of selfish and egocentric I look at actions that aren't impacted by others. Things like holding doors for others. Yes, it takes a little bit of time, but for the most part it's nothing. It still amazes me when people don't hold a door for someone who is literally right behind them. I think thats the best example of people who think only of themselves.
I mean, I could go onto plenty of examples of people who don't understand that the world is bigger than them. That they owe so much to so many for what they have. But no, we live in a world of selfishness where people think they deserve things for no other reason than that they breathe. It's a shame and I'll be damn sure I raise my kids better than that when I have them.
JPGreco
06-30-2011, 10:58 PM
As a society, we've "evolved" into selfishness that's constantly being reinforced. Going back would take an act of God. Literally.
or an act of good parenting, though I think an act of god is more likely to happen...
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