Bigger rimfire rounds

[glockcop]

With the cost of ammo getting so high, I was struck with an idea. What if a few ammo companies and gun makers got together and designed "bigger rimfires". Sort of a modern resurgance of the soft lead, heel based bullets of old. Imagine the usefulness and cost efficiency of a .38 rimfire or .45 rimfire. Pressure would have to be low with the thin cases but velocities could be brought up high enough to still be very useful. Above all this type of ammo would be ALOT cheaper to produce and buy. Probably would not have reliable enough ignition for self defense like the .22 rimfire but it would be good to have around the back 40 for critter control and plinking. I would be first in line to buy .38 rimfire ammo with a 158 gr soft lead bullet at about 700-800 fps. Shot shells would be great too. I would like to see the "new and big" rimfires in a good stainless revolver and lever action rifle. Whatcha think???

[Sourdough]

I have advicated for a .25 Cal. Rimfire Magnum. The .22 Mag. case enlarged to .25 Cal.

[kyratshooter]

There is a reason larger calibers do not come in rimfire. The cases are simply too weak. To achieve any real performance the mfgs had to cross the line to centerfire and then eliminate the ballon head cases also.

Back in the 1800s there were rimfires all the way up to .58. Stevens made a .25 rimfire well into the 20th century. All the early covnversion revolver rounds were rimfire. Even the first cartridge military rounds were rimfire. They were all abondoned for the stronger, more reliable centerfire rounds.

In general, people demand more powerful cartridges in each caliber, not weaker rounds. In your case GC you want a .38 that exactly duplicates the standard .38 target load. Why not just buy or reload some wadcutters? .22 ammo is cheaper due to bulk production and elimination of guality control, not mfg/componant cost. Good .22 ammo costs about the same, or more, than 9mm, which is also cheap due to bulk production. Check out the price of Midus, SK, RWS or Eley Match ammo.

You can always down load a centerfire round, which is not possible with rimfires. Nither downloading or practical reloading at all.

[glockcop]

There is a reason larger calibers do not come in rimfire. The cases are simply too weak. To achieve any real performance the mfgs had to cross the line to centerfire and then eliminate the ballon head cases also.

Back in the 1800s there were rimfires all the way up to .58. Stevens made a .25 rimfire well into the 20th century. All the early covnversion revolver rounds were rimfire. Even the first cartridge military rounds were rimfire. They were all abondoned for the stronger, more reliable centerfire rounds.

In general, people demand more powerful cartridges in each caliber, not weaker rounds. In your case GC you want a .38 that exactly duplicates the standard .38 target load. Why not just buy or reload some wadcutters? .22 ammo is cheaper due to bulk production and elimination of guality control, not mfg/componant cost. Good .22 ammo costs about the same, or more, than 9mm, which is also cheap due to bulk production. Check out the price of Midus, SK, RWS or Eley Match ammo.

You can always down load a centerfire round, which is not possible with rimfires. Nither downloading or practical reloading at all.

I agree mostly. With technology today I am sure the ammo companies could find a brass alloy strong enough yet thin enough for low pressured big bore rimfire use. It would still be alot cheaper than buying centerfire ammo because about 70 percent of centerfire manufacturing cost is in the brass. This was told to me by Reps from Federal, Remington, and Winchester on department ammo bids. Thin rimfire brass would most certainly be cheaper to produce. Copper and brass prices have skyrocket recently as evidence of what scrap yards are paying today compared to years ago. Close to $4.50 a pound for raw copper which is obviously the main component of brass. Ammo companies could probably make 3 rimfire cases with the same amount of brass that is in a centerfire case. No copper bullet jackets would be required either which would also bring cost down. Remember, I'm not talking about upping performance but rather backing down on performance for the goal of cost savings. Yes, my parameters are just about what .38 special target loads would produce but be alot cheaper in rimfire form. They could also just as easily sell it in bulk and ease off the QC just like .22 rimfire to keep cost down. I think it could be done but ammo companies would have to eat the cost of initially tooling up just to sell a 400 count box of.38 rimfire for $30.00 or whatever. I do reload a little but I feel that rimfire would be just as cheap or cheaper for those that don't reload. I am fortunate enough not to have to pay for much of my ammo but others not so lucky could benifit. Just a little brain storming going on is all.

[kyratshooter]

CCI tried to go around all these issues by using aluminum cases and berdin primers in their Blazer ammo. Even that has not replaced the brass centerfire.

Even the .22 magnum has more brass in the base than .22 lr, just for safety

No mater what you get you are not going to get 400 .38 rounds for $30! That just ain't going to happen. That is only $0.13 per round and swadged lead wadcutters are $0.07 each.

Better buy yourself a loading press. By the time you recycle that .38 case about 20 times it will pay for itself. I once reloaded one 37 times before I burned a hole in the side of the case. I sat at the benchand reloaded and shot till I wore it out just to see how far it would go.

But I expect to see the government propose exactly what you are advising, nonreloadable ammo, just to tick us old time shooters off.

[canid]

the issue isn't directly the thinness of the case, but the strength of it's rim. if you make it any stronger, the firing pin may not be able to deform it sufficiently to crush the primer and ignite the cartridge. any weaker, or any more powerful a combustion of the powder and you begin to risk splitting the case, or at least deforming it such that extraction and ejection could not be counted on.

what would be needed where alloys which are stronger for a given malleability. they must still resist expansion along the length but be malleable enough at the rim for the firing pin to do it's work. you would still face the issue of rim swelling.

of course; these cartridges are designed with safety factor, so assuming very high standards of quality control in manufacture i'm sure the current pressure specs for rimfire cases would be pushed a ways further, but then you would probably be inflating cost of manufacture and defeating the purpose.

[derbycitywerewolf]

I would love to c the .32,.38,.41 rimfires come back into production for the old collectible revolvers itching to fire again,

[Lamewolf]

I have advicated for a .25 Cal. Rimfire Magnum. The .22 Mag. case enlarged to .25 Cal.

What about a 25acp rifle ? More velocity from a pistol cartridge going through a rifle length barrel and its reloadable ! I would like that better than a rimfire !

[point man]

There is a new .17 wsm cartridge out there. I know it's not bigger in the bullet department but does has a significant powder charge and very high case pressure, with a significant power increase over the 17 hmr. Parent case is a .27 cal nail gun blank necked down. As far as I know savage is the only maker that has chambered it so far in the Bmag rifle and volquartsen is in development stages. They claim 399 ft lbs. not sure what barrel length that energy was produced with though


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[hunter63]

That's kinda a new one that I hadn't heard about.
Rim fire or center fire.?
I guess once everyone "already has" at least one of each of todays rounds.....time to invent a different one.

So, what would be the advantage or a power increase, do you suppose?
.17 HMR is a pretty good small game /varmint, as is..... but I do question them for long range with the light weight bullets.

Didn't have a 17 HMR, so I just ordered a barrel for the H&R Sportster, the rim fire version of the Handi Rifle.
At least I can find ammo for it.

BTW you need a special cleaning rod for the .17, most on the market won't fit.
Had that problem with the .204 Ruger as well.

[point man]

It's a rim fire. Advantage I suppose would be more power. That's ultimately what people desire. It also has a 50% thicker case wall and supposedly will be safer in auto actions where the hmr has notoriously failed. I know In a few states, where state land coyote hunting can only be done with a rim fire and cannot exceed a certain length case if over a 20 gr bullet which ultimately excludes the 22 mag and only leaves the 17 hmr or 22lr as options. That's where this 17wsm has its calling. According to the specs it's quite substantially powerful over the hmr. I for one have no desire for the hmr or wsm as I've stated before the 22lr will take you a long way if the shooter does they're part


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[point man]

That's kinda a new one that I hadn't heard about.
Rim fire or center fire.?
I guess once everyone "already has" at least one of each of todays rounds.....time to invent a different one.

So, what would be the advantage or a power increase, do you suppose?
.17 HMR is a pretty good small game /varmint, as is..... but I do question them for long range with the light weight bullets.

Didn't have a 17 HMR, so I just ordered a barrel for the H&R Sportster, the rim fire version of the Handi Rifle.
At least I can find ammo for it.

BTW you need a special cleaning rod for the .17, most on the market won't fit.
Had that problem with the .204 Ruger as well.

Air guns of Arizona .177 cal cleaning system.


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[hunter63]

Air guns of Arizona .177 cal cleaning system....cool, I looked them up.....Thanks, looks like it would word.

Did find a rod, but the cleaning jags are tough to push and pull thru.

[point man]

Air guns of Arizona .177 cal cleaning system....cool, I looked them up.....Thanks, looks like it would word.

Did find a rod, but the cleaning jags are tough to push and pull thru.

AOA is good people.

That is another crazy hobby, that is very addicting

Spent many a dollar down that road



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[Grizz123]

With the cost of ammo getting so high, I was struck with an idea. What if a few ammo companies and gun makers got together and designed "bigger rimfires". Sort of a modern resurgance of the soft lead, heel based bullets of old. Imagine the usefulness and cost efficiency of a .38 rimfire or .45 rimfire. Pressure would have to be low with the thin cases but velocities could be brought up high enough to still be very useful. Above all this type of ammo would be ALOT cheaper to produce and buy. Probably would not have reliable enough ignition for self defense like the .22 rimfire but it would be good to have around the back 40 for critter control and plinking. I would be first in line to buy .38 rimfire ammo with a 158 gr soft lead bullet at about 700-800 fps. Shot shells would be great too. I would like to see the "new and big" rimfires in a good stainless revolver and lever action rifle. Whatcha think???

WHY would anyone want a round that is not reliable?

[hunter63]

These rounds would have to be awful cheap to off set the loss of ability to reload.
JMO

[Wildthang]

These rounds would have to be awful cheap to off set the loss of ability to reload.
JMO

Have you looked at .22 ammo prices lately? I was on Gun Brokers and guy wanted $150 dollars for 2 500 round boxes of Winchester .22 ammo! I'm just going to start plinking with .223, at least I can get that stuff!

[point man]

I bet they are costly.

As far as rimfire reliability goes I've got 12000 cci standard velocity's through my 10/22 with Kidd parts in it and not one single misfire.

However, many folks would be surprised to find they're misfires and ill extractions are more likely caused by crappy firing pins, improper head spacing and soft metal extractors. Tony Kidds 10/22 bolt assembly will fire and cycle just about anything

We all start out buying 22's saying "ah it's just a 22" or "but its supposed to be cheap" well that all depends on if you want to shoot beer cans or a Gnats *** and if you want your gun to be reliable.


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heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)