How to be good at Survival.

[Sarge47]

If you'e been watching the Survival shows on TV with Bear Grylls, Cody Lundin, & Dave Canterbury you may have noticed that these guys always get by on a minimal supply of gear. That's because they are very experienced outdoors-men, but that does not mean that any of us are to go out into the Wild & emulate them. These are controlled scenarios that decipt certain types of inexperienced or ill-equipped people. I really like what Cody Lundin has to teach, but I'm leaving the boots on! I understand that eating certain gross bugs will supply needed nutrients to the body, but hey, I'm into Mountain House!

Want to be good at survival? Then take a page out of Sourdough's book & learn to be good in the outdoors. Learn to love it and become one with it! Take the required amount of equipment & learn how to use it. Make the Wilderness your friend in the meantime. Do not plan on going out into the woods alone & ill-equipped just because you saw a TV show that showed some people doing that.

Learn what the Boy Scouts teach & you'll be better prepared than most Americans. Learn to start a fire with only two matches...then learn to do it with one...then none. Learn how to do it right after a hellacious rainstorm.

Learn how to build an efficient shelter that works well in your neck of the woods, and fits in with the season you're going to be out in.

Learn how to fish, hunt, & trap wild game & fish, then learn how to skin, dress, clean, & cook it. Along the way, learn to love, & to have a deep, abiding respect for the woods

Learn 1st aid so well you could become a 1st responder!

Learn how to repair and take care of your equipment. Learn what equipment to have & how not to lose it or let it get destroyed.

Learn how to read both a map and a compass and how to use them together.

Learn how to enjoy, love, and become one with the outdoors. :cool2:

[hunter63]

Here, here, Well said.......

[nell67]

Great post Sarge.

[Sourdough]

Good advice, Well spoken.

[shooter_250]

and, .....if you're still alive.

just saying...my 2cents

Lee

[your_comforting_company]

What really gets my goose is that the shows themselves do not stress these simple principles enough. Well said Sarge! It is our modern mindset that pits us in a fight against nature and the outdoors, when the truth is that peoples lived in parallel with nature for millennia. Simple and effective gear and thorough knowledge of how to use it and maintain it; There is no conflict, Nature is just nature, not some wild eyed beast that only wants to eat you. Ignorance and unpreparedness are what make the outdoors seem that way: It's our own perception.

Learn to love the outdoors and all the birds and beasts therein. Have a deep abiding respect for all the world around you.

[kyratshooter]

AHHH, a thread without argument. Crafted late on Friday evening of a long holiday weekend. You must be mellow and soulfull this fine evening Sarge. The classic "Wilderness Survival Forum" wisdom we have become famous for, repeated often for the newbies and to remind ourselves of its merit.

Next weekend I will be in the wilderness (or as close as one can get to the wilderness in south eastern Ohio) for the first long strech since my wife died. Thanks Sarge, you reminded me that I have a two page checklist somewhere around here.

We should also remember that after 3 seasons Less had damaged his body so badly he could no longer function with minimal equipment and had to give up the series. 15 weeks of this, even with recovery time between shoots, had trashed his body.

Bear can still do it due to having a hotel hidden behind the camera man.

I was reading about some pioneers comming into my neck of the woods yesterday. Hearty souls living in the trackless wilderness. Nothing but an axe, knife and rifle, right?

WRONG!! They were in a 30 foot canoe with so much equipment they only had 3 inches of freeboard above the water as they floated down the Ohio. Stacks of blankets, kegs of powder, bars of lead, kettles, saws, axes, dozens of butcher knives, bushels of salt, several extra guns, a huge oiled tarp to cover and protect it all, and a tent.

Emagine that, pioneers with a tent!

Simon Kenton, one of our local heroes, after escaping from Indians naked and unarmed on one occasion, developed the habit of stashing emergency gear in hollow trees scattered all over central KY.

Bare minimum is good, it proves you have a skill set, it proves you can do it, but a little extra can save the day.

[Sarge47]

Simon Kenton, one of our local heroes, after escaping from Indians naked and unarmed on one occasion, developed the habit of stashing emergency gear in hollow trees scattered all over central KY.
I love the story of Simon Kenton, he's one of my Wilderness influences. ("The Frontiersmen" by Allan W. Eckert.) The thing to remember is that being out in the woods is not near as dramatized the way the "experts" show it. The quietness is usually only broken by the sound of a morning dove as you awaken, or the crickets chirping at night when you sit around the campfire sipping that hot cup of coffee, tea, or hot chocolate. TV makes it look dramatic to increase the number of viewers. It's one of the most relaxing trips you can take most of the time. Ican help you survive "city life." :cool2:

[hunter63]

It's been a long time since I read that one "The Frontiersmen" by Allan W. Eckert", but yeah a lot of people didn't really think to much about "survival" as anything other than normal day to day living.
Great read.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

People did same things different ways in the old days as it is still possible today. Some had a ton of stuff, some had nothing. Some lived under stars at one with nature while others conquered the land and built a roof over thier head. Reading a book does not change the diversity of man that was. This is a modern phenominon because thats how people are educated, lead around by the nose and know no other way. Education and flouride is responsible for modern conformity. The uneducated men of old were free to come up with thier own ways of doing things simply because most did not know how they were supposed to do it. They just had the heart to do it.

[Winter]

If Lewis and Clark would have had a laptop; they'd still be in Missouri.

Being good at survival, to me, is skillfully avoiding a true survival situation. Have the gear you need.

[kyratshooter]

If Lewis and Clark would have had a laptop; they'd still be in Missouri.



I'm not too sure about that! Merriwether Lewis was from a tough family, just like Clark. And they took 15 tons of gear and three boats!

Moma Lewis once sent the boys out to get a deer. When they returned empty handed they found that Mom had shot a big buck in the front yard of the plantation house and already had it hanging in the smokehouse.

There are many tales of these rich planters going into the wilderness for weeks at a strech on survey crews and checking out land claims.

Washington did. Meriwether Lewis was Jefferson's private secretary. Young Clark was the brother of GR Clark of Rev War fame. William Byrd was the richest man in the colonies and often went out with survey crews. Thomas Walker was Jefferson's foster father. He named the Cumberland River, Cumberland Gap, Cumberland Mountains. He also surveyed the border between NC and VA when no white man had walked that land. He surveyed part of the border between KY and TN untill the NC crew got their lattitude lines wrong and he refused to agree and go farther. That mistake is why the KY/TN border had an offset to this day.

All these people knew each other and they were all from the edge of the peidmont where wealth was based on land and production. You had to be out there in the fields and woods and you had to have reserve land for when where you were now wore out. No fertilizers so you had to leech the land and move on. That took hundreds of thousands of acres that you had to buy, claim and survey. That put you in contact with the government, the small settlers and the Indians.

The thing I note as a historian is that the rich men kept journals and told us about it. They are the ones that wrote about the situations the settlers lived in. They wrote about how the hunters they hired to feed and guard the survey grews set up their camps and how they hunted. Even how they slept.

One of Byrds journal entires told of how the hunters stripped down to breechcloths and rolled up in their blankets hugging their rifles with the buttstock for a pillow. They kept their moccasins on and slept with their feet to the fire like spokes of a wagon wheel.

Crews in Indian country would sleep away from the fire, five in a crew. They would pile up with two blankets under them and three on top. Hopefully if the Indians found one group the others would get away.

It was not just proper equipment, it was also skill set knowledge even beck then.

Even the rich guys knew what they were doing in the woods. Everyone sparked their fires. Everyone killed their food. Everyone slept under wool blankets. And that was at home.

Most of the backwoodsmen never wrote a word about their lives. It was the rich planters on the spot and the historians of latter days that went out and found the old folks and asked how they lived. The country folk lived it but the rich and educated saved the information for us.

I think it is really too bad that Old D. Boone did not have an I-Pad.

And if Lewis had owned a laptop we might have his share of the notes from the expidition. He never did turn in his report of the expidition. All we have are Clark's papers.

[Winter]

My joke has been dismantled and found wanting. Thanks for the history lesson.

I do agree on the skill set. However, even an idiot can survive if he has the right kit. That same kit makes a luxury campout for the skilled.

[Batch]

I think one of the best wilderness survival skills is learning about the stories who have become lost or injured in the area you camp, hike or hunt. Understand that it CAN happen to you and learn from their mistakes.

We had a hunter who ventured 100 yards off of the road where I spend most of my time in the woods. He was lost for 4 days with dozens of searches looking for him by land and air. His camp mates heard his distress shots just fine. He could hear the interstate from where he was. But, traveling in a straight line is damned near impossible and traveling in circles is pretty damned near guaranteed if you don't know the land. He was an experienced woodsman who studied wilderness survival! He lost all of his kit including his clothes.

It would be easy to say it couldn't happen to you. It would be better to understand that it could and learn how not to end up in that situation.

One of the reasons I don't watch pro sports is all of the people who watch and arm chair quarterback. They would never make the same mistake this elite athlete who is the best in the game would make. They have the comfort of believing that BS while they sit in the comfort of their lazyboy. But, if they ever step onto that field and try to do what they say they can. They are likely to be disappointed in their ability to actually deliver just prior to being placed in a world of dirt and hurt!

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

OK, What you all say about the historical records is true. However, What about Mountain Men and the Indians? Both traveled with far less than those you have mentioned from historical record. Indians traveled the same country as Lewis and Clark, with Far less than the massive stores, and equipment that those early explorers carried. Mountain Men were gone for months on end with only that which could be carried with a couple of Pack animals, or a canoe, and some of that was nothing but traps.

While some may condemn the "Drama". Personally I applaud it. Not for the sake of the drama, but for the simple fact of those that learn something, that otherwise would be oblivious. Yes even Bear, as much as that galls me to admit. Some people WOULD have died if not for learning SOMETHING from the shows. Let's be honest. If you weren't "Into survival", Watching a video on youtube about a bow drill fire would be rather boring. The same is true of many of the things that interest us, the "skill sets". They would be blase' for the vast majority of people. Humdrum..... boring in the extreme. Is it wrong that the shows producers provide a spark of interest, no matter how contrived? Think of the people they are reaching. Some education is better than NO education. How many times has education been touted here, as the pinnacle to strive for?
Mounts Soapbox

Really, some applaud Les Stroud for his endeavors now, yet had he posted here that that was what he was going to do, Many of the same people that now applaud him would have severely chastised him, Blasted him, condemned him, called him a numpty.... Whether you like it or not you know this is true. Unless he had posted many posts showing that he KNEW what he was talking about.

Yes these shows are contrived, yes they use people knowledgeable about survival. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with their methods people DO learn. In spite of the criticism heaped on these shows, it is better than the alternative..... "Survivor", "Lost", and the like. Here cake is being served, yet people are complaining about the icing. I'm confused, people are being educated, which most of us truly want, yet they still aren't good enough.

Personally I think Dual Survival to be the best of these type shows so far. Yes, they use "Scenarios".... much like we post about here ourselves. Specifics are given, uses are shown, Situations change,(much like it REALLY happens in a survival situation) plans adapt. They "survive" to go on to next week. Just to encounter a "new" set of conditions, items available, different environments.

Look if you want someone to learn something YOUR way, next time someone asks something, instead of chastising them and telling them that question has been asked 14 hundred times already, and they need to use the Search function, play along and give them YOUR ideas. If it's TOO redundant a Mod can always merge the threads. Otherwise the TV producers will reach a MUCH larger audience. You can't teach anything if all you do is tell them to go look somewhere else. Matter of fact you won't teach anything at all. Except to go somewhere else....which they do.

Feel free to blast and chastise me now.:innocent: Same as all those that come seeking info, only to leave and go somewhere else. That which does not grow and becomes stagnant, dies. The title of this thread is "How to be good at survival", but some of the attitudes here are choking this forum to death. Yes Other Forums DO exist, and guess where people are going when they don't come here? No they don't get baby sat, but they get answers. Think about THAT next time you get ready to Jump on some new person.
Dismounts Soapbox.

[Seniorman]

KYRATSHOOTER - "I think it is really too bad that Old D. Boone did not have an I-Pad."

Yep, however I have a fascinating biography about him that relates his life from birth to death. It's very interesting about his explorations, his living day-by-day as a "long hunter" in the dense forests and mountains of the southeast, hunting, dealing with American forest indians, his business interests, etc. It is truly amazing what D. Boone did, including staying alive long enough to die an old man.

Anyone interested in this incredibly interesting man should ask your local library for ...

"DANIEL BOONE, The Life And Legend Of An American Pioneer," by John Mack Faragher, Henry Holt & Co. Publs., (c) 1992.

Probably can buy a copy from Amazon.

S.M.

[randyt]

Poco, if I get this right, you're saying be a mentor.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Poco, if I get this right, you're saying be a mentor.
Exactly! Too much criticism of newbies just runs them off. Can't be a teacher with no students.

I know of two forums that have only started in the last year or so, Both come close to matching or surpassing "Most online" numbers here. The Difference? The reception people get. BCUSA is one, DT is another. On both I mostly just read. BCUSA already dwarfs this forum.
Most users ever online was 766, Currently Active Users (http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/online.php): 301 (138 members and 163 guests) Right now this is what we have here....
12 members and 198 guests

[LowKey]

Do people really care about forum stats?
Let's not devolve this thread into more of that other.

Back on topic, I think the title should change to How to be good at Living. The word Survival has mutated into a far different meaning in the past few years. It's become a game word. There's a difference between survival and Living off the land. There's a difference between going off and doing your own thing in the wilderness (whether that is hiking, camping, hunting or setting up housekeeping), and the chance that you may find yourself in a world of hurt and have to survive it. There will be a big difference in preparing for the EOTW, quite another to have to live it, let alone survive it.

I hope to never have to survive. I just hope to keep on living. I'm just trying to Be Prepared either way.

[BENESSE]

+1 LowKey.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Do people really care about forum stats?
Let's not devolve this thread into more of that other.
It's not about stats that I was talking about, just that the stats bear out that the attitude of welcoming beats the attitude of criticism and hostility.

I'm done. Just so long as people are aware of what, why and how things are happening. Funny, but the "Dual Survival" thread, had so much praise, now people that liked it seem to criticize it, and others of it's ilk. Confuses me no end.

I haven't been around, so have no clue what you are talking about with "Let's not devolve this thread into more of that other." Don't need to know either. But probably something similar to what I mentioned earlier. Which strikes at the heart of what I was talking about. "You can catch more flies with honey, than you can with vinegar." Now, Who has the Honey?:thumbup:

[your_comforting_company]

Now, Who has the Honey?:thumbup:

I'm workin on it...

[NCO]

"But I just want the butterflies, not all the other flies too..."

[kyratshooter]

Sorry POCO but the mountain men did not go out with only a rifle and a knife. They traveled in brigades of up to 100 trappers. Lewis and clark had a keelboat, a skiff and 3 thirty foot canoes carrying 15 tons of gear.

The brigades recruited the best people and Lewis and Clark hand picked their crew from the best woodsmen in North America.

The people that went out unprepared and ill equipped are the ones that rotted beneth the next year's leaf cover and left family wondering what happened and why no letter ever came. 1 out of 5 never came back from their first year. Of the best that were left and went back only 1 out of 5 died as old men, like Boone, Kenton, Bridger and Carson.

I know the movies and Zane Gray have not transfered that information, but it is the truth. Every one of those "frontiersmen" learned their craft from a mentor. They also all started as woodsmen "under supervision" in their early teen years and matured to expertise.

Encouraging stupid behavior to be polite serves no purpose other than giving SAR units plenty to do. I do not want a group of forum jockies encouraging my 13 year old grandson to head to Manitoba with a backpack and Rambo knife as a "learning experience" like the series goof-balls we have had asking stupid questions here.

This is the internet and we get some real idoits here! Pshychos! Nut jobs! Psycho nutjobs that are jerks! I remember times when that ban button was going full time!

Flies? Vinegar? Honey?

Why should we be a popularity contest. Are we being paid by the post? Are we getting bonuses for recruiting? Is there a prize for the sweetest dispisition and most attractive avitar?

We are here to impart information. Hopefully it will be good information! If that information includes advice to NOT do something it is still valuable advice. As a 35 year teacher I will break the tradidion of correctness and promoting ignorance.

There are stupid questions.
There are stupid people that keep asking stupid questions.
There are stupid people that do stupid things even after you told them not to.

I do not wish to be one of the first people tracked down by the internet police and sued for wrongful death because I encouraged some kid to have a "dramitic learning experience".

This thread started on a very positive note. I'm with NCO. Why do we want flies?

[LowKey]

There are stupid questions.
There are stupid people that keep asking stupid questions.
There are stupid people that do stupid things even after you told them not to.

Part of being a responsible adult is the 'telling them not to'.
After that, if they still do it, at least you can say, "I told you so."
:)

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

KY Rat I know some of the big companies like Hudson bay and such and the Lewis and Clark expedition carried TONS(Literally) of stuff in Droves of people. I was referring more along the lines of Bridger Et Al, the "Independents" so to speak. Sure, they did travel in groups, but they also split up on occasion as well. Then they were limited to what their canoe or Pack Animals could carry. Not with just a knife and rifle as you state. Where that came from I have no idea.Sorry but no swivel guns there as in the Lewis and Clark Expedition. No small artillery pieces like the ones they abandoned when they realized they could no longer carry such extra weight any further. Further why discount the Native population, who for all intents and purposes carried practically nothing in comparison.

As for the rest I was TRYING to let it drop. Which is why I tried making a joke...so much for that idea.

Oh and just so you know, I've never read anything by Zane Grey..at all, ever. I only Barely know who he is. I HAVE read a few Louis L'amour's books though.

As far as "Popularity", Just curious if you have noticed the advertising? Advertising that doesn't reach a large community/audience generally tends to go where there is. I'm sure Bennesse can verify that. Are you a Paying member of the Forum? I'm not, neither is anyone else that I'm aware of. Yet the Forum still has bills. Either they get paid, or like any other business, this place "Closes the doors".

Now as for "Teaching" you don't have a "Captive audience". If people are continually rude to new people this forum stagnates. You have to think "Growth". If you can't try and teach someone, instead of chastise them, how do you expect them to learn? Just a wild guess but your students must not have many options in where they can obtain their information/education/schooling. My point is and was, try to help people learn. If they are "Walking out the door" they aren't learning are they? They are the "Flies", your approach is the Honey or the vinegar. Most people respond more positively to a positive influence than a negative one. But you know that, you are just pretending to be obtuse.

I'm not saying to be irresponsible and help a 12 year old run off to the woods. I AM saying to try and be more helpful. Which would YOU listen to, someone criticizing you, or someone TRYING to help you? It's your choice. As I've always heard, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

Now you say you won't Help "Stupid people". Your words not mine. Isn't that the opposite of teaching? I say that if people are leaving (which is one reason I haven't been around so much lately, as is true with other forum members as well) Then you are having a negative population growth. What happens Mr. History teacher when more people leave a town than come in? Answer "Ghost Towns". Is THAT what you want?

[scottmphoto]

Being Prepared is what the Boy Scout Motto is and it's what I teach my Scouts. I teach them to be prepared but I also teach them to make due with whatever they have (if for some reason, they become separated from their fully-stocked pack).

[rwc1969]

If certain forum members were really concerned about the well being of others, some reverse psychology might do better than simple minded criticisms. I get some weird responses on some of my vids, but I try to answer them all with respect and gratitude.

Insulting new members and re-iterating the same ole stuff doesn't have any positive effect whatsoever.

And BTW, there is no such thing as a stupid question, but there is such a thing as an ignorant response. Maybe the reason some folks jump right to the insults is that they have not the answer, but rather an inate ability to type meaningless mumbo jumbo, and a sincere desire to hurt people. Anyone worth their salt can quickly see who these folks are just by viewing their prior posts under their username.

Regardless, it will all pan out in the end and we will all find out who the real survivors are.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It's so often obvious that people choose what they want to believe and then reject all facts to the contrary. Some activities are solo in nature while others are not. For example Gold prospectors lived in solitude but gold miners would flock to areas. Much of what drove people was the pursuit of wealth or bettering there lives. The wilderness provided the oppurtunity. Thats what frontiers were about. They paved the way for more oppurtunity until it is all cobbled up and then you have civilization that just fights for market share. I saw it happen in "The Last Frontier".

[Sarge47]

Being Prepared is what the Boy Scout Motto is and it's what I teach my Scouts. I teach them to be prepared but I also teach them to make due with whatever they have (if for some reason, they become separated from their fully-stocked pack).
Exactly!!!!:thumbup1:

[Sarge47]

YCC & RWC1969: A lot of what you're complaining about Is why I started this thread. While I totally disagree with the idea of nixing the intros as they have a significant purpose, I wrote the initial post as a way to talk about survival in a positive way. So could you both contribute something positive that fits the OP? Thanks. :cool2:

[your_comforting_company]

I apologize for my poor attempt at humor. My first response to the OP, I felt was pertinent and positive, and in agreement with your op. Perhaps I was mistaken. A Ton of gear isn't going to make you "good" at the outdoors, nor survival. A passion for those things will. Many folks seem to be extremely gear oriented, while my view is that none of that gear was available 500+ years ago and people THRIVED in the outdoors.

I have nothing further to add, because I'm not sure where I stepped out of line. If this post is out of line, too, feel free to remove it.

[crashdive123]

YCC - your comments were not out of line.

Poco and RWC - the responses in this thread were most likely due to the same topic in three different threads in as many days. (notice how nobody told you to use the search button :innocent:) Nobody has asked for an intro in several days. Nobody has told anybody to use the search button in several days. Several new members have joined. Several experienced members are still not posting.

It is up to each and every member here to shape this forum the way they would like to see it go. Being active and posting about things you would like discussed is probably the most effective route to take.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

YCC - your comments were not out of line.

Poco and RWC - the responses in this thread were most likely due to the same topic in three different threads in as many days. (notice how nobody told you to use the search button :innocent:) Nobody has asked for an intro in several days. Nobody has told anybody to use the search button in several days. Several new members have joined. Several experienced members are still not posting.

It is up to each and every member here to shape this forum the way they would like to see it go. Being active and posting about things you would like discussed is probably the most effective route to take.I guess that's what I get for being gone for so long. Other than a "drive-by" posting about knives,I haven't been here for quite some time.(Which is why I immediately got worried about Rick when I saw the "Where's Rick" thread)

Yeah I know some of the older members aren't posting here, as I "see" them in my wanderings. Some, like me, keep the same name.

That is why I posted the "Finding Flint" thread. Man was I tickled to find something that was sorta' overlooked. I never knew how to "find" flint, until I stumbled across it quite by accident. But once I did it became a skill that I developed. In the video I did, when I picked up the one chalky rock, I knew before I picked it up that it had no flint. I just needed the "Contrast" as a way to help explain to others. Now I just hope some of you rock hounds get in there and add to the loopholes that exist.

[Sarge47]

I apologize for my poor attempt at humor. My first response to the OP, I felt was pertinent and positive, and in agreement with your op. Perhaps I was mistaken. A Ton of gear isn't going to make you "good" at the outdoors, nor survival. A passion for those things will. Many folks seem to be extremely gear oriented, while my view is that none of that gear was available 500+ years ago and people THRIVED in the outdoors.

I have nothing further to add, because I'm not sure where I stepped out of line. If this post is out of line, too, feel free to remove it.

I did not feel that you were not out of line, but I didn't want this thread to take off in another direction. What I was trying to do was to post a positive direction for inexperienced newcomers. You are absolutely correct when you write: "... A Ton of gear isn't going to make you "good" at the outdoors, nor survival. A passion for those things will. Many folks seem to be extremely gear oriented, while my view is that none of that gear was available 500+ years ago and people THRIVED in the outdoors..."

This is also MY point. Learning how to survive a bad situation in the outdoors without having the love & respect for it will make it much more difficult, IF at all.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Around here warm clothes would serve you better than all this philosophy. It is what it is and how you feel about it changes nothing but how you feel about it. You are actually better off dealing with reality without the dilusions. Preparation and experience counts most in my book. If you get through it once you'll know what it takes to get through it again and what you wished you had to do it with. Knowledge is highly overated when your options become limited because you only have so much to work with and this points to what must be done. Creativity and thinking ability rate higher with me. It worries me that so many can think to learn the solution to every situation rather than understand the fundamentals to create a solution. Knowledge does not have to preclude original thought but the sad truth is that it to often does.

[rwc1969]

YCC & RWC1969: A lot of what you're complaining about Is why I started this thread. While I totally disagree with the idea of nixing the intros as they have a significant purpose, I wrote the initial post as a way to talk about survival in a positive way. So could you both contribute something positive that fits the OP? Thanks. :cool2:

You're right and I have noticed a change recently, sorry for re-iterating what's already been discussed at length. I think you made some good oints and suggestions in the OP. Thanks!

[NCO]

I agree with as. Creativity and the ability to improvise are the keys. If you happen to have an axe to chop wood, good for you, if you don't what then?

[Sarge47]

I agree with as. Creativity and the ability to improvise are the keys. If you happen to have an axe to chop wood, good for you, if you don't what then?
Ya see, this is what I'm talking about. When you have that deep, abiding passion for the Wilderness you study what the indiginous people did way back when. I have cut lots of wood without an ax or using any other type of blade. No I don't cut down trees because that's pretty much illegal here in America, even dead trees. However long tree limbs I use a campfire the way the Native Americans used to. Using the small & short thicker pieces of wood around you, you start a fire. Once it gets going good you then have two choices to cut it, anybody want to say what they would do? :huh:

[Sarge47]

I agree with as. Creativity and the ability to improvise are the keys. If you happen to have an axe to chop wood, good for you, if you don't what then?
Ya see, this is what I'm talking about. When you have that deep, abiding passion for the Wilderness you study what the indiginous people did way back when. I have cut lots of wood without an ax or using any other type of blade. No I don't cut down trees because that's pretty much illegal here in America, even dead trees. However long tree limbs I use a campfire the way the Native Americans used to. Using the small & short thicker pieces of wood around you, you start a fire. Once it gets going good you then have two choices to cut it, anybody want to say what that would be? :huh:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Ya see, this is what I'm talking about. When you have that deep, abiding passion for the Wilderness you study what the indiginous people did way back when. I have cut lots of wood without an ax or using any other type of blade. No I don't cut down trees because that's pretty much illegal here in America, even dead trees. However long tree limbs I use a campfire the way the Native Americans used to. Using the small & short thicker pieces of wood around you, you start a fire. Once it gets going good you then have two choices to cut it, anybody want to say what that would be? :huh:

That is just one of many ways. Having been raised in a wilderness setting it just seems normal to me, no deep abiding passion. I've lived amoung our indigenous people and I'm married to an Eskimo. She and her large family are people to me. We blend our ways to get the job done which is what matters to us. I have always been able to cut wood and make much more than firewood from it. To answer your question about firewood is I seldom use tools to cut up firewood in the field. I'm not as reliant on fire as most but generally I just bust up dead trees that break easily when slammed over something solid or burn them in half if they won't break. It's not rocket science. I remember when the Hippies invaded Alaska back in the 70's with all thier weird ideas which most failed miserably and the others survived adapting to reality and dropping thier preconcieved ideas and learned from those that live it. I know the popular perception but amoung lifelong Alaskans it's just about getting it done, nothing else.

[BENESSE]

. I remember when the Hippies invaded Alaska back in the 70's with all thier weird ideas which most failed miserably and the others survived adapting to reality and dropping thier preconcieved ideas and learned from those that live it. I know the popular perception but amoung lifelong Alaskans it's just about getting it done, nothing else.

I think that's how it is with people who are "at one" with their habitat--be it the wilderness or a large city.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I think that's how it is with people who are "at one" with their habitat--be it the wilderness or a large city.

Yes. I'm sure you've seen the same thing with stary eyed people going to the city for the first time. Man what an adventure!

[BENESSE]

Yes I've see it all, just like you AS. People who try to swim against the tide instead of using it to get where they need to go.

[Sarge47]

AS, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You've become so immersed with the woods/outdoors that you don't even see it as passion. That being said, this is NOT about you; this is about those who come on here that live in one of the other 49 states perhaps & don't know beans about survival. For example, what works for you will almost certainly fail someone living Arizona. (psst; this is one of the reasons we ask for intros, to know whereabouts someone lives so that they receive the right info.) If they already know this stuff they're not going to be asking how to be good at survival. :yawnb:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It is not just my way or yours. There is a diversity of purpose that you are failing to recognize. How many people are being lured to the wilderness by the price of gold these days? For many learning survival is just a byproduct of other activities outdoorsman are involved in. Kayakers, fisherman, climbers etc are drawn by thier other interests and learn needed survival skills just incase like wearing a seat belt. Your interest is yours and a very popular one just not the only one. When it comes to long term survival your philosophy wears thin when reality sets in. A person can still admire a beautiful sunset at the same time recognizing it's about to get dark and what you didn't get done is not going to get done. I'm not trying to sell the wilderness to anybody but if they are determined to do it I try to point them in the right direction.

[rwc1969]

To answer your question Sarge,

I'd just throw the logs on the fire and let it do the work....

[Sarge47]

To answer your question Sarge,

I'd just throw the logs on the fire and let it do the work....
That's probably the easiest way & one of the answers I was looking for. another way requires much more room, you simply butt several logs up against the fire, radiating them out like spokes on a wheel. as the ends burn away you just keep pushing them into the fire.

[rwc1969]

Yes I've see it all, just like you AS. People who try to swim against the tide instead of using it to get where they need to go.

I found a bunch of carp that swam with the flow of the creek, they ended up landlocked and are now dying a slow death in a pool of water that is less than 1 foot deep. I guess that's where they needed to go.

http://youtu.be/S4DRlHruJ_0

[Sarge47]

I found a bunch of carp that swam with the flow of the creek, they ended up landlocked and are now dying a slow death in a pool of water that is less than 1 foot deep. I guess that's where they needed to go.

http://youtu.be/S4DRlHruJ_0
If they're Carp you are exactly right. :FRlol:

[Beans]

OK, What you all say about the historical records is true. However, What about Mountain Men and the Indians? Both traveled with far less than those you have mentioned from historical record. Indians traveled the same country as Lewis and Clark, with Far less than the massive stores, and equipment that those early explorers carried. Mountain Men were gone for months on end with only that which could be carried with a couple of Pack animals, or a canoe, and some of that was nothing but traps.


I am an avid fan of the Indian wars era. I am always amazed by the amount of supplies, robes Etc that were destroyed when one of the military units over ran/captured/destroyed an Indian camp. These were the camps that were setup while the military scoured the country side trying to locate them. Thousands of pounds of dried meat, robes, berries Etc, according to the officers journals/offical records that were kept during those campaigns

[LowKey]

I'm not quite sure where the idea came from that the Native Americans didn't have 'stuff' they carried with them. Quite a bit of it was multi-purpose but they still had stuff. And travois to move it. More stuff when they had horses to pull the travois.
Moving was either to a new area after game was depleted or to a winter or summer camp. It wasn't done on a whim or on a daily basis.

[BC-Dave]

If you'e been watching the Survival shows on TV with Bear Grylls, Cody Lundin, & Dave Canterbury you may have noticed that these guys always get by on a minimal supply of gear. That's because they are very experienced outdoors-men, but that does not mean that any of us are to go out into the Wild & emulate them. These are controlled scenarios that decipt certain types of inexperienced or ill-equipped people. I really like what Cody Lundin has to teach, but I'm leaving the boots on! I understand that eating certain gross bugs will supply needed nutrients to the body, but hey, I'm into Mountain House!

Want to be good at survival? Then take a page out of Sourdough's book & learn to be good in the outdoors. Learn to love it and become one with it! Take the required amount of equipment & learn how to use it. Make the Wilderness your friend in the meantime. Do not plan on going out into the woods alone & ill-equipped just because you saw a TV show that showed some people doing that.

Learn what the Boy Scouts teach & you'll be better prepared than most Americans. Learn to start a fire with only two matches...then learn to do it with one...then none. Learn how to do it right after a hellacious rainstorm.

Learn how to build an efficient shelter that works well in your neck of the woods, and fits in with the season you're going to be out in.

Learn how to fish, hunt, & trap wild game & fish, then learn how to skin, dress, clean, & cook it. Along the way, learn to love, & to have a deep, abiding respect for the woods

Learn 1st aid so well you could become a 1st responder!

Learn how to repair and take care of your equipment. Learn what equipment to have & how not to lose it or let it get destroyed.

Learn how to read both a map and a compass and how to use them together.

Learn how to enjoy, love, and become one with the outdoors. :cool2:

The problem we have these days is that people are very ill-informed. You here people saying, "Yeah I can survive in the woods with just a knife and my clothes" and all of a sudden people think, "Man, I need to learn how to do that and challenge myself by doing it."

What most people don't realize is that, surviving with a bare minimum of equipment is only supposed to be a worst case scenario. You learn how to survive like this incase something bad was to happen, such as the loss of all your gear.

[Sarge47]

The problem we have these days is that people are very ill-informed. You here people saying, "Yeah I can survive in the woods with just a knife and my clothes" and all of a sudden people think, "Man, I need to learn how to do that and challenge myself by doing it."

What most people don't realize is that, surviving with a bare minimum of equipment is only supposed to be a worst case scenario. You learn how to survive like this in case something bad was to happen, such as the loss of all your gear.
You are right! One of our members who was involved with SAR, (Rick-SAR) wrote about how the guys they had to pull out of the crap were inexperienced without any gear; they never even brought it with them!

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?430-Survivorman-Man-vs.-Wild.&p=80936#post80936 Post #497 on this page. It's very interesting!

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

I'm not quite sure where the idea came from that the Native Americans didn't have 'stuff' they carried with them. Quite a bit of it was multi-purpose but they still had stuff. And travois to move it. More stuff when they had horses to pull the travois.
Moving was either to a new area after game was depleted or to a winter or summer camp. It wasn't done on a whim or on a daily basis.
You are VERY Correct. However it was FAR less than Early settlers or pioneers carried. The Plains Indians are the predominant ones you are referring to in this example. Lodges were VERY Heavy being made from Buffalo hides. That alone would comprise a great deal of weight on a travois. 21 Buffalo hides to make a single Lodge(for an average, some were larger, some smaller), PLUS The Lodge poles.(That's just the outer covering and does NOT include the inner lining that helped keep it warm and ventilated. This Inner lining would stand about 3'-4' tall and helped provide a draft for the fire, this also provided a "Storage area" or "Closet" to store things not in use.)
http://www.tipis.org/buffalo_hide_tipis.htm

Now a Buffalo hide can weigh anywhere from 10 Lbs. to over 20 lbs EACH. So that is a pretty heavy shelter, between 210-420 lbs for the lodge covering alone. ( based on a 21 hide lodge)
http://www.chichesterinc.com/BuffaloSkins.htm

Now throw in a few basic things, such as cooking utensils, storage containers, clothes (Made from hides)and that Travois is pretty much as full as it can SAFELY be. Now add in (on another travois laden horse) The remainder of the Household items. Here are some actual pics of Travois....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Cheyenne_using_travois.jpg/300px-Cheyenne_using_travois.jpg
http://www.forttours.com/images/travois.jpg
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJcJe0jdNXhJUQFhaOoteQv5HWqa0ey 4PfSUTwDwT1dMtfd_aqtg

http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Epharan/travois2.jpg
On the other hand Apaches could move a whole village and practically outrun the Cavalry soldiers on their tails while on foot! All that WITHOUT Horses, Without canoes, without a car, or truck. So how much do you think they could carry and outrun Cavalry soldiers while on foot?

Comanches are/were arguably some of the Best Horse mounted society of them all. They could do things on horseback that would make your jaw drop in disbelief. Nez Perce Bred what we now know as "Appaloosa's" From the Palouse area in the Northwest. Yes there are/were "Horse Societies" amongst the Indians....... AFTER they were introduced by the Spanish. Now before the Spanish BROUGHT these horses, how do you suppose they managed? Oh yeah, before horses they used dogs and travois.....
http://www.wwu.edu/depts/skywise/indian/dog_travois.jpg

Notice that this one while it looks large, is actually empty. More like a cage really.
http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/aborig/rodeo/images/161_b.jpg

Oh and during lean times the dogs became the meal, when there was little or nothing else. Then they had to leave some belongings when they moved.

[BENESSE]

I found a bunch of carp that swam with the flow of the creek, they ended up landlocked and are now dying a slow death in a pool of water that is less than 1 foot deep. I guess that's where they needed to go.

http://youtu.be/S4DRlHruJ_0

Obviously you misunderstood my point.
That point being, that it's smarter and requires less effort to use your environment to your advantage, if you know how. I think we've been talking about it on WSF in one way or another.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Obviously you misunderstood my point.
That point being, that it's smarter and requires less effort to use your environment to your advantage, if you know how. I think we've been talking about it on WSF in one way or another.

I understood it and thought it to be a good one. I have a knack for looking at land and seeing what is there making its development much easier. It's hard to explain but people want things and move mountains to do it when it is already there if they only saw it. I think it comes from prospecting and spending so much time thinking on how the earth was formed. I not only see the tree in the forest but also the soil it sinks its roots in and seen entire mountain sides anchored by the growth of one tree. You have to look to see some things. What makes a good survivalist? It takes a lot of skill to offset blindness, a good start is to open your eyes.

[rwc1969]

I understood too Bennessee, but it just reminded me of those carp.

What really helps me in this regard is to clear my mind of all pre-conceived notions and just look at things as they are, not how I would like them, or think them to be.

[BENESSE]

I understood too Bennessee, but it just reminded me of those carp.

What really helps me in this regard is to clear my mind of all pre-conceived notions and just look at things as they are, not how I would like them, or think them to be.

No disagreements there.

[ryaninmichigan]

It is not just my way or yours. There is a diversity of purpose that you are failing to recognize. How many people are being lured to the wilderness by the price of gold these days? For many learning survival is just a byproduct of other activities outdoorsman are involved in. Kayakers, fisherman, climbers etc are drawn by thier other interests and learn needed survival skills just incase like wearing a seat belt. Your interest is yours and a very popular one just not the only one. When it comes to long term survival your philosophy wears thin when reality sets in. A person can still admire a beautiful sunset at the same time recognizing it's about to get dark and what you didn't get done is not going to get done. I'm not trying to sell the wilderness to anybody but if they are determined to do it I try to point them in the right direction.



I agree there are inhearent risks in lots of outdoor activities. I learned suvival skills because it was a needed skill before I was turned lose in the big woods. I hunt, fish, kayak have my whole life but while learning these and enjoying them I also learned what I can eat and what I can't in the woods. How to build a shelter and a fire. you have to know this stuff, and it is iresponsible as a father to allow his son to hunt alone in 15,000 + acres with out this knowlege. It was taught to me and it will be taught to my son. Who at 6 is already quite the woodsman. He has his own hatcket and kayak and can use both pretty good for his age.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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