Pro Gun Control- Must See ! [Archive] - Wilderness Survival Forums

crashdive123

04-14-2011, 06:21 AM

Well, don't let the facts get in the way of your beliefs. What most gun control advocates are against is people having high-capacity militaristic assault weapons.

I'd appreciate it if you could point me at a legitimate (not NRA) website that gives real statistics on the number of US citizens who are trying to completely take away your right to own a gun, please.

I gotta raise the Bovine Squeeze flag on this one. I know that you are an ex-pat, and not sure how closely you follow things, but we (gun owners in the United States) are under assault on a daily basis. You may not think much of the NRA, but I dare say if it were not for them, gun ownership in the United States would be a lot more difficult than it is today. There are thousands of studies, books, and sites to support that fact that many, both inside and outside this country are trying to dismantle the 2nd Amendment and take guns out of the hands of citizens.

BTW, at the time - muskets were one of the most advanced military weapons on the market and people owned them. As weaponry advanced, so did the ownership of those weapons. Using emotionally charged words like "assault" rifle is the hue and cry of many that wish to ban guns. Don't get caught up in the emotional imagery. Also - statistics have a funny way of conveying the wrong message unless the meanings (or sources and reasons) behind them is revealed. The statistics that you cited had nothing to do with magazine capacity, and probably mostly to do with lifestyle. How many of those deaths were because of gang or drug related activity? Again, magazine size has very little to do with the assault on our rights. It is very simply a vehicle that those that wish to take away our rights are using to further their argument.

Rick

04-14-2011, 06:37 AM

Galong - You also need to understand that you've walked into a predominantly pro-gun forum. Wilderness survival and gun ownership seem to go hand in hand for most of us. I won't debate this issue with you. You obviously have your thoughts on the issue that won't be swayed and so do I. So we can just agree to disagree. I will however, point out two things. 1. You are advocating control in another country so I'm not certain why it is a passion for you. And two, using your statistics above, it would seem to me we should outlaw automobiles since their death rate in all categories is so much higher.

Galong

04-14-2011, 06:46 AM

I gotta raise the Bovine Squeeze flag on this one. I know that you are an ex-pat, and not sure how closely you follow things, but we (gun owners in the United States) are under assault on a daily basis. You may not think much of the NRA, but I dare say if it were not for them, gun ownership in the United States would be a lot more difficult than it is today. There are thousands of studies, books, and sites to support that fact that many, both inside and outside this country are trying to dismantle the 2nd Amendment and take guns out of the hands of citizens.

BTW, at the time - muskets were one of the most advanced military weapons on the market and people owned them. As weaponry advanced, so did the ownership of those weapons. Using emotionally charged words like "assault" rifle is the hue and cry of many that wish to ban guns. Don't get caught up in the emotional imagery. Also - statistics have a funny way of conveying the wrong message unless the meanings (or sources and reasons) behind them is revealed. The statistics that you cited had nothing to do with magazine capacity, and probably mostly to do with lifestyle. How many of those deaths were because of gang or drug related activity? Again, magazine size has very little to do with the assault on our rights. It is very simply a vehicle that those that wish to take away our rights are using to further their argument.

Sure, I follow what's going on there. I care deeply about the US. I find the whole "it's our RIGHT to carry a gun anywhere we want and furthermore any type of gun we want to be a strange position. It's not one that most of the rest of the world supports. Why exactly do Americans feel so strongly about it? Is it really personal protection? Is it mainly in support of the Constitution? You know, that same Constitution that didn't give women the right to vote or the slaves the right to do anything. [tongue planted firmly in cheek]

Yes, the NRA is, in my opinion, necessary to counter the extreme opposite of the NRA.

Please supply links to the "thousands of studies, books, and sites to support that fact that many, both inside and outside this country are trying to dismantle the 2nd Amendment and take guns out of the hands of citizens."

If you'd prefer to use a different word other than an 'assault' rifle, what word would you prefer to use to describe a rifle that has high-capacity and that is designed to use in military situations? Would you prefer a military rifle? I'm fine with that. I don't hold adjective and adverbs in the same light that I do nouns.

-

Lastly, as you called Bovine Squeeze on me, I'd love to see some government-generated text (links?) to support your claim that it's not magazine size, but guns in general that is being assaulted... oops, I used that word again. :-)

Galong

04-14-2011, 07:41 AM

Galong - You also need to understand that you've walked into a predominantly pro-gun forum.

1. You are advocating control in another country so I'm not certain why it is a passion for you. And two, using your statistics above, it would seem to me we
should outlaw automobiles since their death rate in all categories is so much higher.

ey Rick,

Aren't opposing views welcomed? :sweatdrop: [rhetorical]

It was already pointed out that I'm an expat by Crashdive123, as if being an expat might mean something like I'm not entitled to comment on my homeland. I hope that wasn't the intention.

I'm still an American citizen. I still have family in the US and a brother who teaches high school in an inner-city school. I love my country and my family and therefore I have strong opinions on an issue that could end the lives of those I care deeply about.

Sure, my stats weren't meant to be anything more than a rebuttal to those who have the 'guns don't kill people' attitude. Sure, we can ban cars. I walk most of the time anyway. :chinese:

-

My position is not that guns should be banned. You'll NEVER hear me say that. I support the Second Amendment. My position, again, is the banning or at least strong certification for those who wish to carry/own high-capacity (insert adjective) weapons. They are becoming increasingly more popular, why? Seriously, why?

Galong

04-14-2011, 07:50 AM

Actually, I was looking for a survival forum. If this is a pro-gun forum, then I guess I'll look elsewhere. Thanks anyway... cheers.

Rick

04-14-2011, 07:56 AM

Of course opposing views are welcome. I just didn't think either of us would change our minds on the subject and I don't think anyone else will either.

I know you're expat. I only asked because there is no direct impact to you. It's sort of like me being concerned about OTC drugs in Malaysia. There's really no point.

I would suggest that the rising popularity of high capacity magazines and military types of weapons is partially due to the fear they will be banned. Many are of the mind I had better get them now before they are banned. As for me, my AR-15 (before the terrible canoe accident of 2010) was an expansion of my weapons. I didn't have one and it was the next logical step for me. My Mosin Nagant was because it's a solid piece of history, it's a really great weapon and it's very inexpensive. I really see no difference in the Mosin with its bolt action capability than I do the AR-15 with it's 30 round magazine. I just have to reload a lot less at the range with the 30 round mag. I won't/can't take either hunting in Indiana.

I always carry a weapon in the woods. Always. In fact, I carry daily no matter where I am. In the woods you can run into drug labs or farms or a pack of wild dogs. Even a sick animal of any kind can represent a problem if unarmed. It's not just about large animals but those that live where large animals live certainly have another reason to carry.

canid

04-14-2011, 07:56 AM

you're reading too much into it. stay, go; whatever you like. whether i depend on a firearm or merely exercise my right to own one because i enjoy doing so is beside the point. our views are not subject to your purview any more than yours are to ours. why get miffed over it?

crashdive123

04-14-2011, 08:06 AM

Bovine Squeeze? Good one!

Sure, I follow what's going on there. I care deeply about the US. I find the whole "it's our RIGHT to carry a gun anywhere we want and furthermore any type of gun we want to be a strange position. It's not one that most of the rest of the world supports. Why exactly do Americans feel so strongly about it? Is it really personal protection? Is it mainly in support of the Constitution? You know, that same Constitution that didn't give women the right to vote or the slaves the right to do anything. [tongue planted firmly in cheek]

Yes, the NRA is, in my opinion, necessary to counter the extreme opposite of the NRA.

Please supply links to the "thousands of studies, books, and sites to support that fact that many, both inside and outside this country are trying to dismantle the 2nd Amendment and take guns out of the hands of citizens."

If you'd prefer to use a different word other than an 'assault' rifle, what word would you prefer to use to describe a rifle that has high-capacity and that is designed to use in military situations? Would you prefer a military rifle? I'm fine with that. I don't hold adjective and adverbs in the same light that I do nouns.

Lastly, as you called Bovine Squeeze on me, I'd love to see some government-generated text (links?) to support your claim that it's not magazine size, but guns in general that is being assaulted... oops, I used that word again. :-)

The Bovine Squeeze comment was my attempt at humor. Sorry if it didn't come across that way. A quick Google search of "ban guns in America" came up with 27,600,000 returns. A Google search of UN wants to ban guns yielded 12,100,000 returns. I haven't had time to go through them all yet, but here's a short list. While some are from sources that are reporting, and certainly have a favorable view of gun ownership, they do cite references.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/25/130646.shtml
http://www.libertybelles.org/articles/problemwithun.htm
http://www.un.org/disarmament/convarms/ArmsTradeTreaty/html/ATT.shtml
http://disarmament.un.org/vote.nsf/e9e05f9ef74d8c7f05256705006e0a60/ba7a9a5b18eb96128525753800558049/$FILE/A%20C%201%2063%20L%2036.pdf
http://gunowners.org/op04052011b.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2698610/posts
http://www.vpc.org/studies/unsafe.htm
http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/guns-safer.html
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=161&issue=047
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/WillYouBeSafer.htm
http://www.mypeoplesvoice.com/steps-being-taken-to-totally-ban-guns/
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=89830

The following link has a lengthy list of anti and pro guns sites.
http://www.policyalmanac.org/crime/guns.shtml

Hey Rick,

Aren't opposing views welcomed? :sweatdrop: [rhetorical]

It was already pointed out that I'm an expat by Crashdive123, as if being an expat might mean something like I'm not entitled to comment on my homeland. I hope that wasn't the intention.

I'm still an American citizen. I still have family in the US and a brother who teaches high school in an inner-city school. I love my country and my family and therefore I have strong opinions on an issue that could end the lives of those I care deeply about.

Sure, my stats weren't meant to be anything more than a rebuttal to those who have the 'guns don't kill people' attitude. Sure, we can ban cars. I walk most of the time anyway. :chinese:

My position is not that guns should be banned. You'll NEVER hear me say that. I support the Second Amendment. My position, again, is the banning or at least strong certification for those who wish to carry/own high-capacity (insert adjective) weapons. They are becoming increasingly more popular, why? Seriously, why?

I also see no reason to carry a gun into the woods (or jungle in my case) as a survival tool. How long in human history have we depended so heavily on such things? Having said that, there ain't any Grizzlies here, the Tiger are all gone, and the boys from Deliverance are 12 time zones away. :whistling:

I won't speak for Rick - but I think his comment was intended to let you know that there are many that will take an opposing view from yours in this debate. My ex-pat comment was merely meant to say (as I thought I did) that I'm not sure how closely you follow this issue. Nothing more. As to the argument regarding magazine capacity, which I understand was your original argument - I think it is a red herring. Not saying that you intend it to be, but as pointed out in some of the links I provided - it surely is. Magazine capacity, honestly does not matter to somebody that is well trained. I carried a .45 with a magazine capacity of 7 rounds while I served. I could dump and reload magazines quickly enough so that individuals on the receiving end might think I had a much higher magazine capacity.

Actually, I was looking for a survival forum. If this is a pro-gun forum, then I guess I'll look elsewhere. Thanks anyway... cheers.

This is but one thread out of thousands. If you choose to leave because of this thread, then I guess you weren't looking too hard.

BENESSE

04-14-2011, 08:07 AM

My position is not that guns should be banned. You'll NEVER hear me say that. I support the Second Amendment. My position, again, is the banning or at least strong certification for those who wish to carry/own high-capacity (insert adjective) weapons.

Galong, I am one of the few if not the only one here, who would agree with that statement. We've had many debates on the topic that turn into circular, no-win arguments that end on "let's agree to disagree".
My sense is, people feel strongly that if anyone/the govt. stands in the way to their having it all without any checks and balances, it's just a matter of time before all is taken from them and we degenerate into criminal rule.

Rick

04-14-2011, 08:13 AM

It's sad that you've chosen to remove your comments. I had higher hopes for you than that.

BENESSE

04-14-2011, 08:17 AM

I agree with Rick.
We've all disagreed many times over, then kissed, made up and went on, still believing what we believed in the first place but maybe a little more aware of other legitimate views.

crashdive123

04-14-2011, 08:30 AM

Galong - once you interact with others on the forum, deleting all of your posts is not only disruptive to the forum, but disrespectful to other members. I have banned you to keep you from deleting any more posts. I will restore the posts where you interacted with others. Once one with that, I will remove the ban. Stay if wish, or go - it is your choice. I see that you changed your profile to say "Came here for survival stuff... found out it's apparently a pro-gun site so I'm no longer interested." so I'd have to question your pro Second Amendment stance. Either way - it's your choice, but disrupting the forum by deleting content is not.

Justin Case

04-14-2011, 08:34 AM

I am sorry this thread took a bad turn,,,,, I just thought the video in the OP was clever and wanted to share,,,,,

sushidog

04-14-2011, 08:38 AM

I have an opposing view. This is what I thought this post was about when it said gun control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE1AKixLXO8
Or how about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G99ZKk-1WHg&feature=relmfu

Those are examples of gun control I can vote for. One shot; one kill.

Chip

BENESSE

04-14-2011, 08:55 AM

Those are examples of gun control I can vote for. One shot; one kill.
Chip

They are also examples of people who shoot well.
If you don't, then maybe you might feel safer with Ak47, 12 gauge, etc.

welderguy

04-14-2011, 09:12 AM

I am sorry this thread took a bad turn,,,,, I just thought the video in the OP was clever and wanted to share,,,,,

I thought it was a good video, I too am sorry It took a bad turn I should of just let his comment go with no reply, .

Justin Case

04-14-2011, 09:20 AM

I thought it was a good video, I too am sorry It took a bad turn I should of just let his comment go with no reply, .

No,,,, I didn't mean that,,, I guess i just didn't expect any opposing views ,,, It was VERY childish of that guy to just say "Phuket" Thailand and delete every comment he made on this site,,,, Crash is restoring them,,, Which is fair as others have replied to him.... You did nothing wrong welderguy !

Justin Case

04-14-2011, 09:37 AM

LOL,,,,,

CLjNJI54GMM&feature=player_embedded#at=38

finallyME

04-14-2011, 11:07 AM

I see the second amendment as a protection against military action, and therefore the weapons safeguarded would be military weapons. The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting. JMHO, and I know that others disagree.

Rick

04-14-2011, 11:38 AM

I thought he was a survival instructor. I guess you survive his way or not at all.

welderguy

04-14-2011, 12:04 PM

IMO, any restrictions is one step closer to not being able to own them at all. Look at Winnie's situation she can't even hunt cause she can't even own a single shot shotgun. How will banning high cap mags solve anything, if I was a scum bag hell bent on shooting up a function and all that was available were wheel guns, well how many could I carry in a back pack 4 that's 24 shots what if I had 10 that's 60 shots. So IMHO its a gun control issue period.

Justin Case

04-14-2011, 12:06 PM

crashdive123

04-14-2011, 12:28 PM

As to my earlier point about the speed at which a pistol can be reloaded....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Uq1aCiTA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto

There are a lot more available, but then again - this wasn't ever about magazine capacity was it?

woodsman86

04-14-2011, 12:34 PM

Well this was interesting. What I just don't understand is where people get stuck on "Assault" "Military" or whatever the word of the day is. My 700 SPS can be just as dangerous with a well placed shot as an automatic AK-47. An example of this would be Charles Joseph Whitman, killed 16 and injured 32 w/o using a high capacity weapon. Banning any firearms will create a loophole for a snowball effect to continue banning firearms. Violent crimminals will be violent crimminals whether they have guns or clubs, I just want to know I have fire superiority when they decide to pick the wrong house.

welderguy

04-14-2011, 12:55 PM

As to my earlier point about the speed at which a pistol can be reloaded....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Uq1aCiTA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ
O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto

There are a lot more available, but then again - this wasn't ever about magazine capacity was it?
No it wasn't I was just making a statement on my feelings about the subject.

crashdive123

04-14-2011, 01:03 PM

No it wasn't I was just making a statement on my feelings about the subject.

My comment was directed toward the posts that Galong made saying he was only against high magazine capacity and "assault" weapons. The video clips were intended to reinforce my earlier statement about the arguments about magazine capacity really were not, since the capacity of the magazine has little to do with the ability to put a large number of bullets down range.

Justin Case

04-14-2011, 01:06 PM

The average person can't reload that fast,,,,, just sayin',,,, High cap clips are more convenient for the novice to send lots of bullets quickly,,,

welderguy

04-14-2011, 01:08 PM

@crash, I knew that I was just adding my 2¢. I have serious issues with anti- gun nuts. Its one of the few subjects that really gets my panties in a bunch, it flat turns my long Johns into a thong.

crashdive123

04-14-2011, 01:08 PM

@ JIC - With practice they can improve their speed. Not saying that they'll ever be as fast as the pros in the vids, but they can be pretty fast.

Justin Case

04-14-2011, 01:12 PM

agreed,,,,,,,,

Sam

04-14-2011, 03:52 PM

The Second Amendment was enacted on December 15th, 1791. At that time the guns were muskets and single-shot pistols, see http://www.h-net.org/~ieahcweb/revtest/guns/gunindex.html I guess you could have totted a canon around if you wished.

It wasn't until 1903 when Winchester developed the first semi-automatic rifle.

I would like to hear a logical argument that our founding fathers would approve or somehow supported the position that a 30 round AK-47 is OK for anyone and everyone in America to own.

On a personal level, I support the Second Amendment. I am opposed to ordinary citizens owning high-capacity assault weapons. Please focus on the words 'high-capacity'.

Hello Galong, I hope you are settling in with us. I support peoples right to speak their mind on any given subject. So with that being said I will give you the reason that we need to keep some parity (note I said with SOME) with what the government and criminals are armed with.
If we let the balance get to far out then we lose the power that the second amendment gives us. That being the ability to have our say no matter what the present politicians may want. If we lay down our arms, I know we will lay down our freedoms as well. I hope I phrased this in a way that makes sense, I am not very wordy. Again I am not attacking your opinion.
-Sam

sushidog

04-14-2011, 04:04 PM

They are also examples of people who shoot well.
If you don't, then maybe you might feel safer with Ak47, 12 gauge, etc.

Yep, my next weapon will be a sweet Saiga-12 with a couple 20 rd drums and possibly a bullpup stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SliIoQSJtQs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzErujpv0sU&feature=related

I recognize that sometimes you have multiple targets, and it's all about mass quantities of lead down range.

Can you say suppressive fire? I think it's the perfect solution to a close range "target rich environment" short of an AA-12.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

Chip

Nutman

04-14-2011, 04:40 PM

Yeah support your local criminals so they can feel save and keep thier guns and we lose ours

LowKey

04-14-2011, 08:35 PM

Benesse, what do you have against a 12-gauge?
Mine's a pump action trap/skeet shotgun.
You want to take that away cuz I could put a shorter barrel on it? Or more than 2 shells if I remove the hunting stop? Or because it has a wider pattern and shoots multiple pellets? You do have to aim a shotgun BTW. Even at 10' open choke, you can put all the pellets in an 8" circle.

I can't buy a top of the line Pardini Olympic-quality target pistol in this state, not because it doesn't comply with the state gun laws. It does. The only reason you can't buy is because it does NOT comply with the so-called Consumer Protection guidelines in place in this state. And the only reason it doesn't comply with those is the Pardini company refuses to submit 5 of their $4000 pistols to a 'certified' testing lab to be dropped, melted, trigger tested etc... It is no different in magazine size or chamber attributes from the Smith 41 that is on both "lists." There actually is no Consumer Protection Agency List that spells out what guns are 'safe' for the people of the Commonewealth to own. The state leaves it to the gun companies to figure out if they are compliant or not. Some won't/don't do that. Some have tried but later withdrew. That should scare more people than it does.

Already the gun control lobby have tried to use other agencies outside the constitutional government to make this type of thing country wide. They tried it with the EPA and the lead in bullets. It's only a matter of time before they make something stick.

BENESSE

04-14-2011, 11:26 PM

Benesse, what do you have against a 12-gauge?

Not a thing. I wish I had one along with a lot of other things.
The plainest and stupidest way I can sum up how I feel about this whole issue is: I want to keep guns in the hands of sane, law abiding citizens (of which I am one) and out of mentally unstable, volatile and criminally inclined. That's it. No more, no less.
Read what you want into it.

randyt

04-15-2011, 06:35 AM

[QUOTE=BENESSE;293643 I want to keep guns in the hands of sane, law abiding citizens (of which I am one) and out of mentally unstable, volatile and criminally inclined. [/QUOTE]

will additional laws accomplish this?

canid

04-15-2011, 06:54 AM

i would infact venture to say that is the goal and concern of most gun control advocates and gun rights advocates about who's views i know enough to comment.

i'm still trying to figure out a way to legislate common sense, but at least that concern is a common ground for so many of us.

Rick

04-15-2011, 06:59 AM

Unfortunately, neither will ever happen. You can not legislate morality (or common sense, Canid). As long as there is a nut case or bad guy intent on doing harm they will find a way to do it and a weapon of some type to use. Ask Winnie what happened to knife ownership in GB when guns fell by the wayside.

There will always be vices that cater to amoral people and mentally deficient individuals. But hey, you know all that.

BENESSE

04-15-2011, 07:45 AM

The plainest and stupidest way I can sum up how I feel about this whole issue is: I want to keep guns in the hands of sane, law abiding citizens (of which I am one) and out of mentally unstable, volatile and criminally inclined. That's it. No more, no less.

will additional laws accomplish this?

I honestly don't know. But when we have talks like these, I'd like to hear more (if anything) about that particular issue and less about how your rights are gonna be taken away if you can't have another X, which of course you already have--at least a canoe load.
Moderate (independent) people like me get labeled as anti-gun liberals just for bringing it up.

BENESSE

04-15-2011, 07:57 AM

As long as there is a nut case or bad guy intent on doing harm they will find a way to do it and a weapon of some type to use. Ask Winnie what happened to knife ownership in GB when guns fell by the wayside.

I've heard that argument before from y'all.
Yeah, I know...if someone wants to harm me, they can even use a large rock to hit me upside the head. But those guys are less likely to go postal with the rock or a knife. Someone who is inclined to shoot people from afar might not be as inclined to go around stabbing them, up close and personal. I can outrun a knife but not a bullet.
What if they use a car to plough into the crowd? Or a plane to crash into the building? Well we haven't outlawed planes have we? We just take stricter precautions. That's all.

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 09:40 AM

I've heard that argument before from y'all.
Yeah, I know...if someone wants to harm me, they can even use a large rock to hit me upside the head. But those guys are less likely to go postal with the rock or a knife. Someone who is inclined to shoot people from afar might not be as inclined to go around stabbing them, up close and personal. I can outrun a knife but not a bullet.
What if they use a car to plough into the crowd? Or a plane to crash into the building? Well we haven't outlawed planes have we? We just take stricter precautions. That's all.

B, I think we get so defensive because the people who are most vocal about "gun control" act like all guns are evil, and that everyone who has one is evil, too. Then they propose laws that are at a minimum an inconvenience and at the extreme, rights destroying for us legal gun owners and do little, if any, to keep guns out of the hands of those who would do harm to innocent people.

We just feel like we give up more and more, for no reason.

randyt

04-15-2011, 09:56 AM

I honestly don't know. But when we have talks like these, I'd like to hear more (if anything) about that particular issue and less about how your rights are gonna be taken away if you can't have another X, which of course you already have--at least a canoe load.
Moderate (independent) people like me get labeled as anti-gun liberals just for bringing it up.

There was time I believed in some form of gun control. Over the years I've seen what this "common sense approach" has done to other countries. I've changed my stance on ALL gun control, now I believe, never, never give in on any point. I believe 95 percent of the gun control advocates intent is total confiscation. The old bit and switch.

welderguy

04-15-2011, 10:46 AM

BENESSE

04-15-2011, 01:43 PM

woodsman86

04-15-2011, 01:55 PM

In short this is a no win topic of debate for either side. How about the anti gun lobbyists spend one year of there time trying to control drug abuse, child and spouse abuse, and how to stop releasing dangerous felons back into society. Getting those things fixed would make me feel better as well as safer.

I agree! You are never going to stop a crimminal from commiting a crime if he/she is set on doing it. But, you stop him/her from commiting the crime again by enacting harsher punishment for those that can't handle following the laws.

crashdive123

04-15-2011, 02:38 PM

B - I think that most are in agreement with you with regards to keeping guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people and criminals. The rub comes in when trying to figure out a way to go about it that is effective and does not trample on the rights of law abiding citizens. I remember a while ago that Ken made a post regarding notification of the courts regarding psychiatric treatments. I don't remember the details (I'll look for the post later) but it seems that much of what is preventing that sort of system being incorporated into the Insta Check system are privacy concerns from this or that group. I don't know the answer on the best way to go about it, but do know that most efforts underway now are not designed to prevent mentally incompetent people from getting guns while law abiding citizens still can.

welderguy

04-15-2011, 03:54 PM

An example of gun control aimed at law abiding people wold be Illinois. And look at the records of what wasn't voted in compaired to what was. And by who.

Rick

04-15-2011, 03:59 PM

Illinois makes no sense to me. There is so much hunting in that state. So many gun owners and no one has the right to carry. Friggin' Cook County makes the rules for the whole danged state. Every time I go home I have to stop at the state line and unload my weapon and lock it up. Stupid.

BENESSE

04-15-2011, 04:16 PM

B - I think that most are in agreement with you with regards to keeping guns out of the hands of mentally unstable people and criminals. The rub comes in when trying to figure out a way to go about it that is effective and does not trample on the rights of law abiding citizens.

Can we all remember how much easier airline travel used to be before 9/11? Can we all agree what a colossal a pain in the @ss flying anywhere is these days? And yet, most of us do it and put up with it because it's the only way the govt. chooses to keep us all safer. (there are of course additional & better ways which are ignored)
I don't want to get into "owning guns is a right" vs. "flying is a privilege" because it's beside the point. The point being, that enforcing better safety and saving lives on such a major scale is going to be inconvenient, frustrating, and sometimes unfair. I understand that this alone is a major issue for some people, it just happens not to be one of mine.

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 04:29 PM

Can we all remember how much easier airline travel used to be before 9/11? Can we all agree what a colossal a pain in the @ss flying anywhere is these days? And yet, most of us do it and put up with it because it's the only way the govt. chooses to keep us all safer. (there are of course additional & better ways which are ignored)
I don't want to get into "owning guns is a right" vs. "flying is a privilege" because it's beside the point. The point being, that enforcing better safety and saving lives on such a major scale is going to be inconvenient, frustrating, and sometimes unfair. I understand that this alone is a major issue for some people, it just happens not to be one of mine.

And with all the time, money, frustration, and untold damages, don't most studies show that the "security measures" are pretty much a joke, as far as making air travel safer? People don't throw fits about air travel because they are too stupid to realize that they suffer, and aren't really getting any benifit.

Sheep, I tell ewe! LOL

welderguy

04-15-2011, 04:37 PM

Can we all remember how much easier airline travel used to be before 9/11? Can we all agree what a colossal a pain in the @ss flying anywhere is these days? And yet, most of us do it and put up with it because it's the only way the govt. chooses to keep us all safer. (there are of course additional & better ways which are ignored)
I don't want to get into "owning guns is a right" vs. "flying is a privilege" because it's beside the point. The point being, that enforcing better safety and saving lives on such a major scale is going to be inconvenient, frustrating, and sometimes unfair. I understand that this alone is a major issue for some people, it just happens not to be one of mine.

What if after 9/11 they did away with all recreational flights, only documented business and extreme emergency's could get on a plane and then only after a federal back ground check, and any one with a violent felony or mental conditions were not allowed to fly at all would ya still be OK with that or would that be going overboard.

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 04:41 PM

What if after 9/11 they did away with all recreational flights, only documented business and extreme emergency's could get on a plane and then only after a federal back ground check, and any one with a violent felony or mental conditions were not allowed to fly at all would ya still be OK with that or would that be going overboard.

....and you could not take "high capacity" bags on the plane.....or book a flight for someone else.......or fly more than one time per month....

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 04:47 PM

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 04:53 PM

Here is some more info.

Do You Really Believe You Are Safe at the Airport?

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/airport-security-post-911-remove-shoes-documentary-evaluates/story?id=10973654

welderguy

04-15-2011, 05:04 PM

Can you believe that some people actually feel safer, knowing that the pilot had to get there 30 minutes early, go through a security check, and have his nail clippers taken away from him?

Those same people are the ones asking for more regulations. Think about it.
And don't most airlines have a gun in the cock pit. Dang hope my pilot isn't Havering personal problems and snaps the day I'm flying.

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 05:21 PM

And don't most airlines have a gun in the cock pit. Dang hope my pilot isn't Havering personal problems and snaps the day I'm flying.

If he's having a bad day, and desides to kill every one....does it matter if he has a gun or not?

I heard a pilot tell the story about going through the training and red tape, to get FAA approval to carry a gun on the plane. In security, TSA told him that he could take his gun on the plane, because he had the correct approval, but they took away his nail clippers.(They were not approved.) He said it was a true story. LOL

Rick

04-15-2011, 05:30 PM

If the water bottle or the shave cream that was confiscated from me is so dangerous then why did they toss it in the trash can that sits next to them all day long? Airline security is a joke. It always has been and making $8 an hour security folks $14 an hour security folks didn't make me feel any safer.

As for guns in the cockpit, the very last place I want a shootout is at 30,000 feet inside a pressurized cigar tube. "In the unlikely event of a water landing you're seat cushion can be used to land on after we fall 30,000 feet. Thank you for flying Billy Bob Airlines."

welderguy

04-15-2011, 05:40 PM

@ 2dumb I didn't phrase my reply right, the gun in the cock pit was to show how stupid it is to take the pilots nail clippers.

Rick

04-15-2011, 05:43 PM

I saw on the news the other night they strip searched another 5 year old. Well, made him take his shirt off over his objections. I think racial profiling should be outlawed. Just because one 5 year old hijacks a plane doesn't mean they all will.

LowKey

04-15-2011, 06:19 PM

Why would they make a 5 year old take his shirt off?

I don't even want to go down the flying road. I resent the so called security they do now and haven't flown in over a year.

2dumb2kwit

04-15-2011, 06:32 PM

@ 2dumb I didn't phrase my reply right, the gun in the cock pit was to show how stupid it is to take the pilots nail clippers.

I was with you....I was just on a roll, and couldn't stop! LOL

woodsman86

04-15-2011, 06:55 PM

Airline security is a joke and nothing more than the illusion of safety. True story: Last November I flew a red eye from Sea-Tac to Buffalo and was not subjected to the new full body scan. I asked them why they weren't using them and the TSA security officer told me after 8pm they don't have anyone able to operate them. At the same time my assault pack went through the scanner with a 4" folding Benchmade in the front pocket, I forgot about it until I landed in Buffalo. It just amazed me how lack their security was.

Justin Case

04-15-2011, 08:29 PM

6nf1OgV449g&feature=player_embedded

BENESSE

04-15-2011, 08:35 PM

They do because they're Swiss and we ain't.
'Nough said.

randyt

04-15-2011, 08:59 PM

6nf1OgV449g&feature=player_embedded

awesome, He hit the nail on the head with the talk of the holocaust museum. People must have the means to defend themselves, when that is taken away so is freedom.

LowKey

04-15-2011, 10:32 PM

That is an awesome shooting range.

r0ckhamm3r

04-15-2011, 10:39 PM

My thoughts on gun control.

The Bill of Rights guarantees all citizens of the United States the right to keep and bear arms. The liberal interpretation of the Second Amendment has been that the right only applies to a "well regulated militia". The Supreme Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that the right to keep and bear arms is conferred to the individual, unconnected to membership in a militia. This settles the old liberal argument once and for all.

The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is just as important as the First Amendment freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Why then are we required to register to exercise this right? We are not required to register in order to have freedom of speech. We do not need to register with the government to attend the church of our choice. Why should the right to keep and bear arms be any different? The Second Amendment also states that the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. I would argue gun control laws do indeed infringe upon that right.

The Second Amendment is the only right that WE have allowed the government to regulate. This regulation is under the assumption that the right MIGHT be abused. What other liberties are the government allowed to regulate on the assumption that they MIGHT be abused? Should we force people to wear a muzzle because they MIGHT abuse their freedom of speech? I think we should not do either.

I sincerely hope the Supreme Court rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago will result in clearing away repressive gun control laws that do indeed INFRINGE upon our right to keep and bear arms.

BENESSE

04-15-2011, 10:52 PM

They be Swiss, we be Rednecks.
Apples and oranges...don't care what nobody says.

welderguy

04-15-2011, 11:03 PM

They be Swiss, we be Rednecks.
Apples and oranges...don't care what nobody says.

I didnt know ya all had rednecks over there I thought they were all in my neck of the woods.

LowKey

04-15-2011, 11:35 PM

I'm all for the licensing but in the way your licensed to drive a car. You take your classes, your pass your test, you get a license. Even then that won't stop chuckleheads from doing stupid things with their cars. Look at some of the dumbass things that get posted to YouTube in regards to guns.

The NRA is always complaining that perhaps 2/3 of gun owners don't join the organization. As I mentioned in a different thread, their argument needs to come down from of the chest pounding attitude of a good portion of the membership and find out what the less vocal 2/3 can do to help their image with the general gun-fearing public. The gun itself has become so firmly associated with crime that some folks just cannot visualize any good thing about a gun, especially in this age of food on the shelf with no need to even think how it got there. As an example, a guy at work said he carries. It somehow came up in conversation amongst a few shooters sitting at lunch, he wasn't showing off in any way and he would not draw the piece though he did show it. Some of the people in the vicinity were curious and wondered what it was like to carry and asked him about it, but there were a few that just couldn't believe a nice guy like him could even own a gun.
Why is that? Where does that dichotomy come from? They aren't stupid people. Sheltered perhaps? Misinformed? Unaware. I dunno. There needs to be a fostering of the curiosity, not the shock. I think that is where the NRA fails in its mission, and where the Hollywood machine has succeeded in terms of brainwashing the public, on gun ownership.

If there was a more, I don't know, maybe less wildman face to gun ownership, it wouldn't matter what kind of gun you owned. That Swiss video for instance, the public there doesn't view guns as scary or evil. They are just a common, comfortable tool that has its place in the household. I find that much more normal than the strange sort of dread a gun induces in a lot of the population here.

randyt

04-16-2011, 07:33 AM

People are to comfortable, they don't realize how evil their fellow man can be or become. Ever see the piles of skulls Idi Amin and his henchmen piled up? I bet those people would have wanted the option to be armed. Maybe that would have made no difference in the outcome but there would have been a chance, with a chance there is hope. There are examples of this through out this world and history.

There are more laws and rules now than there has ever been but it is every bit as dangerous, perhaps more so. How? the goody two shoes want to take away our rights, make no mistake about it they want outright bans. Pass a law and honest folk follow it, a criminal laughs at it, it does not stop a criminal. No law stops a criminal, that's why they're a criminal. Why is this basic concept so hard for some people to grasp? I don't get it.

canid

04-16-2011, 08:17 AM

The Second Amendment is the only right that WE have allowed the government to regulate.

this is not really true. we allow the government to moderate our rights to be sucure in our effects by subjecting the definition and interpretation of the article 'effects' to court jurisprudence, the freedom of speech by legislating against obscenity, abusive and subversive language, direct and indirect incitement to commit a crime, our right to unimpeded travel by impositions in the interest of public safety, financial responsibility and others, the right to assemble by moderating the means, locations, times and other circumstances including motivation - as a few examples.

some of these infringements, past and present seem necessary to me, some merely reasonable and some seem neither. it's a double edged sword. do we pass ambiguously constitutional laws which may infringe the rights guaranteed by the constitution? do we allow the discretion of the courts to moderate our rights by basing rulings in part on personal opinion and subjective interpretation? do we introduce new amendments to the constitution which may violate the sense of rights guaranteed by the constitution? do we repeal articles of the constitution (e.g. it's amendments) to augment our desired rights? the answer to all of these questions has at one point or another been yes.

the Constitution of the United States has not always been held as clear cut, inviolable or explicit as some of us would like to think - myself included - even when the wording of the law has been.

I trust us all here not to hold this to be a political statement, only one matter of opinion or inflection has been delliberately included in this post (as regards my desire that the literal word of the law not be considered subjective where it seem clearly meant to be explicit and is not vague), which is meant only to be an interpretation of matters of law. there are no lines to read behind in it.

BENESSE

04-16-2011, 09:39 AM

I didnt know ya all had rednecks over there I thought they were all in my neck of the woods.

We may have distinctions amongst ourselves, but to the outside world we're all rednecks.

r0ckhamm3r

04-16-2011, 09:46 AM

The freedom of speech is somewhat regulated by laws that punish for things like "fighting words" or yelling fire in a crowded theater. They do not prevent you from speeking, they are after the fact punishments for misusing a right. They do not prevent you from exercising that right, they punish you if you abuse it by crossing a certain line. Gun control laws punish us all by preventing the exercise of a right. Punishing you BEFORE you have the opportunity to misuse the right.

Rick

04-16-2011, 09:53 AM

His point is still valid, however. You do have to register to vote (15th).

2dumb2kwit

04-16-2011, 10:24 AM

We may have distinctions amongst ourselves, but to the outside world we're all rednecks.

I'd like to show them how much of a redneck we can be.

The "outside world" can kiss my ***......and tell 'em not to come callin' when you need money, or a strong military!

canid

04-16-2011, 11:11 AM

They do not prevent you from exercising that right, they punish you if you abuse itI fail to see the distinction between this and the 2nd amendment issue. your assertion is that it does not prevent free speech, but merely infringes certain elements of it's exercise? this is exactly what the limitation of the types, numbers and origins of owning weapons does.

I can own a hunting knife, but only under certain circumstances could i own a switch blade, or bear it on public lands and ways. I may own a firearm, but only those under a certain bore diameter, ammunition type, action type, capacity. i can own a handgun but only (in my state) specific models approved by a state agency. sounds the same to me. an infringement is an infringement.

with that issue aside, the greatest exception i take to the infringement of legally protected rights is the idea that many people seem to have that i should need a justification or some arbitrary 'reasonable need' do or own a certain thing. from a legal standpoint; everything not specifically prohibited by law is legal under the constitution, a sentiment also outlined perfectly in our declaration in independence in no uncertain terms. perhaps i have a particular personal crusade towawrds this point, being a guy with a lot of weird/obscure hobbies and interests which i should not have to justify to the public to be allowed to exercise. sociologically; people often seem only too willing to legislate away implicit rights as long as they don't have a personal interest in exercising them; entithetically to the spirit of my country's founding intents and what i interpret to be it's national spirit.

ok; so this post was somewhat political (i guess that' what you get when you try to combine sociology, law and personal interpretation into one statement?), and i apologize.

BENESSE

04-16-2011, 03:54 PM

I'd like to show them how much of a redneck we can be.

The "outside world" can kiss my ***......and tell 'em not to come callin' when you need money, or a strong military!

We go calling when we need money (China) and we go calling with our strong military when we feel like being "helpful". We have no one to blame but ourselves for whatever fine mess we've got ourselves into. No one is making us do ANYthing we don't want to do. We all know it, whether we want to admit it or not.

2dumb2kwit

04-16-2011, 04:05 PM

We go calling when we need money (China) and we go calling with our strong military when we feel like being "helpful". We have no one to blame but ourselves for whatever fine mess we've got ourselves into. No one is making us do ANYthing we don't want to do. We all know it, whether we want to admit it or not.

We "borrow" money, but how much do we "give" to the UN and other countries?

As for the rest of you post....yes and no. The people who voted for the policy makers are to blame.

BENESSE

04-16-2011, 04:15 PM

We "borrow" money, but how much do we "give" to the UN and other countries?
As I said, NO one is making us do anything we don't want to do. And it's not even appreciated, if we want to be honest about it. We are less respected/admired now than we've been for a long time. All this "help" isn't buying us any good PR.
As for the rest of you post....yes and no. The people who voted for the policy makers are to blame.

They are to blame but they are the majority who won. We didn't. At any point in time SOMEbody is gonna be unhappy, and right now you're part of that crowd. (so am I, btw) Still glad I'm here and not elsewhere, though. There's no one anywhere I'd trade places with.

2dumb2kwit

04-16-2011, 04:32 PM

They are to blame but they are the majority who won. We didn't. At any point in time SOMEbody is gonna be unhappy, and right now you're part of that crowd. (so am I, btw) Still glad I'm here and not elsewhere, though. There's no one anywhere I'd trade places with.

Not even the future Mrs. 2dumb? Pfft! Now you're just fibbin'! LOL

BENESSE

04-16-2011, 04:34 PM

The future Mrs. 2D is a pigment of your imagination.

randyt

04-16-2011, 06:17 PM

truly folks, all we really have is the present moment.

crashdive123

04-16-2011, 06:42 PM

I fail to see the distinction between this and the 2nd amendment issue. your assertion is that it does not prevent free speech, but merely infringes certain elements of it's exercise? this is exactly what the limitation of the types, numbers and origins of owning weapons does.

I can own a hunting knife, but only under certain circumstances could i own a switch blade, or bear it on public lands and ways. I may own a firearm, but only those under a certain bore diameter, ammunition type, action type, capacity. i can own a handgun but only (in my state) specific models approved by a state agency. sounds the same to me. an infringement is an infringement.

with that issue aside, the greatest exception i take to the infringement of legally protected rights is the idea that many people seem to have that i should need a justification or some arbitrary 'reasonable need' do or own a certain thing. from a legal standpoint; everything not specifically prohibited by law is legal under the constitution, a sentiment also outlined perfectly in our declaration in independence in no uncertain terms. perhaps i have a particular personal crusade towawrds this point, being a guy with a lot of weird/obscure hobbies and interests which i should not have to justify to the public to be allowed to exercise. sociologically; people often seem only too willing to legislate away implicit rights as long as they don't have a personal interest in exercising them; entithetically to the spirit of my country's founding intents and what i interpret to be it's national spirit.

ok; so this post was somewhat political (i guess that' what you get when you try to combine sociology, law and personal interpretation into one statement?), and i apologize.

Here's the distinction as I see it.

When it comes to the First Amendment, there are laws on the books, and if you violate those laws you get punished (not saying I agree - just the way I see it). You are not prevented from your exercising that speech, but may suffer the consequences if you do so in a manner that violates the law (again - not saying I agree with the law)

When it comes to the Second Amendment, there are laws on the books that prevent you from exercising your right and freedom to "own and bear arms". It is different for different areas, but when you are prevented from purchasing a firearm, then you are being prevented from your ability to exercise your Second Amendment rights. Misusing a firearm, IMO is different from owning a fire arm. It's kind of an apple and oranges thing as I see it.

canid

04-16-2011, 08:45 PM

with free speech it's a restriction on what you can say, where and when. with the right to bear arms it's a restriction on what arms you can bear, where and when.

further; you have the ability to exercise speech even knowing in advance that it will be otherwise unlawful in the same way you have the ability to seek and acquire prohibited arms, even knowing in advance that it is otherwise unlawful, in both cases facing the consequence.

still not seeing it. i'm also not saying i like it.

BENESSE

04-16-2011, 08:50 PM

with free speech it's a restriction on what you can say, where and when. with the right to bear arms it's a restriction on what arms you can bear, where and when.

That's pretty much how I see it.
Not sure what the big deal is.

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12-12-2025, 04:26 AM

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yellowcab

05-22-2026, 05:11 PM

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