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kyratshooter
04-09-2011, 04:58 PM
How accurate do you excpect your carry pistol to be?

Since I got out of the military I have only been called on to draw my carry gun twice. Both were hostage situations with a POS holding someone in front of them. One had a knife to the victim's throat and the other had a knife pressed in their victim's back.

In one situation the BG was about 6' and holding a small kid in front of him. I had his whole head and a foot of chest/shoulders to work with. In the other incident I had only a few inches of "fringe target" around an adult victim.

Will your gun put all its shots into an inch at 10'?

Sounds easy, but will it happen every time?

Both of my incidents ended without bloodshed or a shot being fired with an arrest of a child molester (who had peed his pants) when the police arrived in the first, and the other BG probably still running down alleys somewhere in Memphis.

I consider myself fortunate since I had less gun than I should have in both incidents. I wonder to this day if I could have dropped the big guy with the Ruger .22 auto before he cut the kids throat. Fortunately I did not have to find out.
Justin Case
04-09-2011, 05:03 PM
Do you have any links to the news stories, surly something like that made the news ? That would be an interesting read,, :) I think a 22 bullet in the head will drop just about anything,,, I watch a butcher kill a cow with one 22 short between the eyes,,, it dropped like a stone...
crashdive123
04-09-2011, 06:13 PM
How accurate do you excpect your carry pistol to be?

Since I got out of the military I have only been called on to draw my carry gun twice. Both were hostage situations with a POS holding someone in front of them. One had a knife to the victim's throat and the other had a knife pressed in their victim's back.

In one situation the BG was about 6' and holding a small kid in front of him. I had his whole head and a foot of chest/shoulders to work with. In the other incident I had only a few inches of "fringe target" around an adult victim.

Will your gun put all its shots into an inch at 10'?

Sounds easy, but will it happen every time?

Both of my incidents ended without bloodshed or a shot being fired with an arrest of a child molester (who had peed his pants) when the police arrived in the first, and the other BG probably still running down alleys somewhere in Memphis.

I consider myself fortunate since I had less gun than I should have in both incidents. I wonder to this day if I could have dropped the big guy with the Ruger .22 auto before he cut the kids throat. Fortunately I did not have to find out.

Thankfully I have never been in a situation where I had to find out. Range is one thing, real life, with your heart racing 100 mph is quite another. Your Army training was quite a bit different than my Navy training. One of the things I taught was anti-terrorist shipboard tactics where we were safeguarding nuclear weapons. The saying "the life of the hostage shall be considered, but should not influence your decision to shoot or not" is why we carried M-14's aboard Submarines. You could shoot through the hostage to kill the bad guy.
Alaskan Survivalist
04-09-2011, 06:14 PM
I don't shoot to well with small handguns that would fall into that catagory. 10 inches? I guess that would depend how close I was, at 15 feet most likely. Now with my 44 I can keep them in 10 inches at 25 yards.
Camp10
04-09-2011, 07:03 PM
I'm pretty accurate with my 22s but I dont shoot my other handguns enough to be that confident. I'm more of a long gun, shotgun guy.
2dumb2kwit
04-09-2011, 07:35 PM
I've never really thought about it that way. I guess, in the back of my little mind, I always thought that if I ever had to shoot, it would be a case of split second point and shoot, with no time to really aim.
Without a lot of effort, I can knock down bowling pins, at 25 yards. It's not exactly something to brag about, but I feel like it is good enough to know I can basically hit what/who I have to, if the need to ever happens. I just hope the need never comes.
Pal334
04-09-2011, 07:40 PM
At 15 yards, I am happy with a grouping that approximates the area from the solar plexus to the shoulders everytime. To me the nail driving accuracy is not as important as near 100 percent functioning (of course, nothing is truely that reliable, but as close as possible). I obviously favor the .45, but any hit with a .22 is better than having to standby ringing ones hands in frustration.
LowKey
04-09-2011, 08:09 PM
I don't carry. Yet.
With my .22 I'm within 3" at 50' aimed. But the range officer is always saying, if you're shooting at someone from 50', there better be a damned good reason...

With the 1911, about the same at 10' fast-raise (not allowed to draw at the indoor range). But that's with a 5" barrel. Not exactly an easy carry weapon. I've tried rental 3" snubs and can keep em on the paper but yeek, can't get a good group even at 10'. Mostly cuz I don't like the action. Same with Glocks and M&Ps. Nice guns but that first shot is always a flincher for me. If anyone has a cure for that flinch, I'm all ears.
Batch
04-09-2011, 08:46 PM
I was shooting at 12" steel plates at 30 yards today and was kind of disappointed I missed the plate as often as I did. But, most indoor ranges are what 15 to 25 yards? At least most are down here.

KY, you are asking if you would have been better off with a 10/22 or simular rifle? Would the situation allow you to have a long gun? How did you carry and deploy your firearm in the two situations you mention above? Were you a first responder or what?

I carry a handgun because I can't carry a long gun every where I go. Course this question can change around too. If I had a more substantial caliber than .22LR could I have punched throw that cover and got the kill.

You get to fight with what you got and not what you wish you had.
Batch
04-09-2011, 08:50 PM
Actually, the targets were at 50 yards... We started one target out at 30 yards and then moved them all back to 50 yards.
woodsman86
04-10-2011, 12:16 AM
I carry a .380 and shoot it at least once a month. At 10' I would have no trouble pulling a trigger. Head shots are still tough, but a .22 in the head would put anyone down. In civilian life I have only drawn once but never fired at anybody. It was on two teens trying the break into my car, I came outside with a Ruger .45 long colt, they ran, and my buddies and I had a good laugh. Never had another problem in that apartment complex after that.
klkak
04-10-2011, 01:37 AM
With my .44 629 I can hit a spruce hen in the head out to 25 feet or so, and I've done it in front of witness's.
crashdive123
04-10-2011, 07:02 AM
How is the witness recovering from his wounds?:dodge:
klkak
04-11-2011, 12:44 AM
How is the witness recovering from his wounds?:dodge:

I have people lining up somewhere just waiting to be my friend. So you can be replaced......eventually!
kyratshooter
04-11-2011, 12:07 PM
Do you have any links to the news stories, surly something like that made the news ? That would be an interesting read,, :) I think a 22 bullet in the head will drop just about anything,,, I watch a butcher kill a cow with one 22 short between the eyes,,, it dropped like a stone...

The first was in Jackson, TN back in '75 or '76. I am sure the arrest was recorded and court records exist. The guy got a sizable prision term if I remember right. No computer to link from that era.

The other incident was not reported by mutual consent of all survivors. The BG was not the only one that would have been in trouble. Memphis was not real acceptable to concealed carry back then. I would have gotten more time for carrying a gun than the BG for attempted abduction.

I used to kill hogs with a .22. Usually they were not dead, just stunned. We cut their throats before they hit the ground and bled them out. That was what actually killed them.

To the question about the rifle, no a rifle would not have been appropriate, and very difficult to conceal down my pants leg, in a resterant in a small southern town.

The range I was speaking of was 10 feet, not ten yards, and not 50 feet. But I do think that if it were a hostage situation a 50 foot shot would not be unjustified, but you better hit what you are aiming at.

Judging from the responses, If that ever happens to me, when one of you guys are around, just let them cut my throat, it will be an easier and quicker death.
Alaskan Survivalist
04-11-2011, 02:10 PM
Judging from the responses, If that ever happens to me, when one of you guys are around, just let them cut my throat, it will be an easier and quicker death.

That goes with out saying...why should I care if your throat is cut? I thought the question was about accuracy with carry handguns.
klkak
04-11-2011, 02:50 PM
If someone is accurate enough to hit a 1 inch target at 10 yards or 50 feet or whatever distance beyond 10 feet it stand to reason they can hit that same target at 10 feet.
SARKY
04-12-2011, 11:17 AM
I expect 1/2 MOB (minute of body) from 20 yds out and 1/2 MOH or better from 20 yds and closer
Ole WV Coot
04-12-2011, 06:27 PM
I've never drawn a firearm in the good ole US of A and I guess for me that would be a quick call. I know I can but don't know if I would. I shot qualifying with some LEOs last week and had no problem qualifying with a Glock 40cal that I had never fired before, just hated the muddy mags I had to drop during changes. I then went to my carry 45 and smoked them so I know I still can.
lucznik
04-12-2011, 09:38 PM
How accurate do you excpect your carry pistol to be?


Will your gun put all its shots into an inch at 10'?


If your handgun won't keep all its shots into an inch at a mere 10 feet, then you need a new gun.

The only gun I have ever owned that wouldn't reliably do that was a little PT22 by Taurus. You could look down the barrel and actually see the nicks in the rifling from the horrible machining job.
kyratshooter
04-12-2011, 11:59 PM
That goes with out saying...why should I care if your throat is cut? I thought the question was about accuracy with carry handguns.

Sorry you're having a bad day AS.
Rick
04-13-2011, 07:37 AM
It's like a karma thing, dude. We are all cosmically connected on this wild ride. We are, like, one in the universe.
Alaskan Survivalist
04-13-2011, 12:24 PM
It's like a karma thing, dude. We are all cosmically connected on this wild ride. We are, like, one in the universe.

Right. I'm sure you go to bed crying for all the starving children in the world. When it comes right down to it you don't care either.
kyratshooter
04-13-2011, 12:59 PM
Right. I'm sure you go to bed crying for all the starving children in the world. When it comes right down to it you don't care either.

Sure we do! We like puppies and kitties and do our best to make one shot kills!

Time for a group hug!
Batch
04-13-2011, 06:46 PM
Sure we do! We like puppies and kitties and do our best to make one shot kills!

Time for a group hug!

I won't be able to make it for the group hug. But, I like puppies and kitties...

Y'all wanna exchange recipes? (CALM DOWN!!!! It was a joke... Unless it is a really good recipe...):innocent:
Rick
04-13-2011, 06:51 PM
If it were only the starving children. But it's starving mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and that crazy Uncle Ed that no one likes to talk about. I walk around dehydrated about half the time just from all the tears I shed. Again with the negative waves Moriarty.
kyratshooter
04-13-2011, 09:43 PM
Anyone remember a few years back when the Ethopina jolkes were circulating during the famine of the '80s.

Fastest animal in the world= the last chicken in Ethiopia.
Rick
04-14-2011, 08:03 AM
Nope. How does it go?
kyratshooter
04-14-2011, 11:11 AM
Nope. How does it go?

have you ever tasted Ethipoian food?

No they don't have any.
Justin Case
04-14-2011, 11:25 AM
How do you swat a hundred fly's at once?

Hit an Ethiopian in the face with a frying pan.


How do you start a marathon in Ethiopia?



Roll a donut down a hill.
Batch
04-14-2011, 10:21 PM
Anyone remember a few years back when the Ethopina jolkes were circulating during the famine of the '80s.

Fastest animal in the world= the last chicken in Ethiopia.


See man you got time memorieitas. While you and I both probably wish it weren't so, the 80's were several DECADES ago and not years! LOL
Rick
04-15-2011, 07:21 AM
Wait. Decades you say? Why, I was listening to President Reagan last night demanding the Ruskies tear down the wall in Berlin. You need to check your calendar.
crashdive123
04-15-2011, 08:26 AM
Some people are just coming out of the fog of Woodstock.
glockcop
04-15-2011, 11:52 AM
I'll get in on this one. I want my carry pistols to be capable of about 2 1/2'' or better at 25 yards from a steady rest. Under 2'' is a definate keeper pistol. I know there are no steady rests out in the field but at least you know what your weapon is capable of if you can do your part. It's a matter of confidence. If you are not confident in the ability of your weapon, you will never be a really good shot with that particular weapon. Consistant accuracy is the objective. I have found that most any Sig or Smith and Wesson revolver 4'' (or better) to be up to this standard. I reluctantly admit that Glocks fall on the outside edge of my, for the most part, stringent accuracy standard of 2 1/2'' or better. A Glock can shoot around 2 1/2'' groups if you find the load it likes. Sigs and Smiths gobble just about everything to this standard.
kyratshooter
04-15-2011, 03:09 PM
I just did some interesting digging. It took me two hours to find the specs for the aborted JCP effort of a couple of years back. I was looking for military test accuracy standard and found some interesting stuff.

1. the mil spec for combat pistol is 3.8 inches radius group @ 50m = 1.9"@25m = .95" @ 12m/46ft (That is 7.5 inches at 50m)

2. Service ammo spec accuracy is 1.74 @ 50m = .87 @25m = 1/2" @ 12m/46ft (that is 3.5" at 50m)

This means that the issue pistol must put ammo that is not guarenteed to shoot better than 1/2 @ 46 ft into a 1" radius

We are talking radius, not diameter. They are saying the average pistol should shoot 1 inch diameter capable ammo into a 2 inch diameter group at 46 feet.

I was really amazed when I saw the ammo requirements. 3.5" diameter groups at 50m will not get you past competition acceptance at most national matches. One is not considered proficeint for competition at Camp Perry unless they can keep their groups inside 2 1/2 inches at 50m and this ammo is not capable of that standard.

It also means that a lot of gun writers and mall ninjas are making claims of their gun/ammo combination that is outside the parimeters of the factory ammo capability, much less the gun and shooter. Some top shooters may be able to overcome the short-commings of a bad gun, but you absolutely can not overcome or compensate for the short-commings of bad ammo.

My cast bullet handloads will do better than the milspec ammo. I have beenched different batches many times over the years and know they will do better.

Oh well, just some infor for thought.
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05-22-2026, 02:42 PM
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yellowcab
05-22-2026, 02:43 PM
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