Crossroads

[your_comforting_company]

When I quit my last job they wound up hiring 3 people to replace me. It's been several years since I've been gone, and with the economy the way it is, I find myself faced with a tough decision.
Lack of steady work for several months now is really making me consider putting in an application for a position that is opening to run a new CNC machine they just got. I ran all the CNC machines when I was there before, so this one can't be any more complicated than lasers or plasma.
The Mrs. got a great job at the hospital, but she's not making a huge pile of money or anything, though it is definately helping keep our couple bills paid.

Maybe I'm just getting antsy. I feel like I should be working steady, it's what I've always done. IF I put in an application and get the job, you can bet it'll be just like it was before when I worked there: 60+ hours a week, working every saturday. This will severely limit the amount of time I have to do things for myself, like gardening and hunting and fishing, learning about storage and plants, and EXTREMELY limited tanning. This was my contention for quitting in the first place: Why should I spend my entire adult life making this rich man richer, while I suffer, doing nothing for myself for lack of time, and spending what little money I make to pay the bills, which will go up significantly if I have to go back to buying groceries and the like.

I really have the feeling that this newest endeavor might bear some future for me (and it's what I want to do); teaching classes related to primitive skills and self-sufficiency. Just as this was about to take off, I begin feeling the pressure to get a real job again. If I miss the opportunity to get this real job, I doubt there will be another opening there again for several years; If someone quits, which is doubtful since it is one of the few places to work around here.

What would you do? pursue your dream or capitulate?
I have given up on dreams and ambitions so many times in the past to do what had to be done, that I am really disappointed in myself. I'm smart enough, that I could have been anything I wanted to be. I finally settled on being nothing, and nobody, and have to admit, it's really comfortable.
The Mrs. really doesn't like me roofing by myself, and I don't really like it either, but you do what you gotta do, right?
Well.. I ain't gotta but I feel like it's an opportunity, and if I miss it, it could mean years before another such opportunity comes around. On the other hand, If I give up on this whole primitive gig, I'll feel like I just "gave up" and will probably never get the opportunity (or days off) to pursue it again.

Saturday will really tell me if there is any future in this endeavor. If there is a big turnout, and lots of interest, I'll probably let the "real job" go to someone else and just be happy being unwealthy and (mostly) independent. If I spend all day demonstrating Saturday and only 5 people show up, I'm probably gonna put in my application just be unhappy being unwealthy, and totally dependent.

[randyt]

Can you hire a person to help you roof? And pay them a percentage as a sub, this way you're not roofing alone and have them get a their own comp policy. Also in regards to your roofing do you run it like a business? What I mean by that is I've seen self employed people people barely eke by, they're too low on their prices because they don't understand their true costs of doing business and they are cheap and they're not systematic in their approach. Being cheap is not honest in my opinion it short changes you and your family. I'm not saying you are, I'm babbling.

also with life we get one chance at getting it right. At the end we can't say heck I didn't like the way that went I want a do over.

[Winnie]

This is a dilemma I don't envy you. Have a real heart to heart with Mrs YCC and the children to get their opinions. Noone can really answer this for you but I would strongly urge you to talk to the family and put to them what you have written here. With luck you will all make the right decision together.

[crashdive123]

YCC - I think you've already answered your own question. Financial security is important, and contrary to what you believe, will offer you freedoms that you may not have thought about. Being in a position to pay off all of your bills, including your home and vehicle(s) puts you in a place where you don't "have" to do something because you are a slave to your bills. Before I started my own business I was working 80+ hours a week. I was traveling a lot. At the time I thought I really enjoyed what I was doing. When the company was sold and I lost my job (and started my own business) I had the opportunity to reflect on my previous 5 years with that company. I came to realize that I was not as happy as I thought I was. That being said - the pay was great, and it afforded me to pay off all of my bills. Starting a small business can be very stressfull financially, but because of the job that I did for the previous five years I was able to start the business and not take a single loan. I'm now doing something that I enjoy, and at a pace that I enjoy doing it.

A job or opportunity that comes along in life does not have to be an either or proposition. That passion that burns inside of you will keep you focused on what is important to you and your family. If you decide to take advantage of a job opportunity to put yourself in a position where you do not need to have that job......

Just something else to think about.

[Rick]

Why do you see it as either/or? I can't tell you what to do. I can only tell you what I did and why I did it.

Like you, I love the outdoors and as a youngster spent all my time either playing in the woods or playing baseball. Once I got married and had kids my outlook changed. It was no longer about me or what I wanted to do. Rather, it was about my wife and kids and what they deserved. I wanted to provide my kids with the very best opportunities they could have. That meant a change of location, me going back to school and working whatever hours I needed to work to make that happen. I worked, generally, six days a week and usually 12 or more hours a day except on the nights I had school.

I'm happy to report that things worked out pretty well for us but it didn't just happen. It was part of an overall plan that was written down, modified when needed, and closely followed. Yeah, I'm anal that way but life isn't a meandering stream that will eventually lead you where you want to go. It's a road map that you draw out and follow if you expect to end up where you want to be.

I've always seen life as a mindset. You can be as happy or as miserable as you want doing anything. I can also tell you that even though some of the jobs I had within the company were not what I was going to be doing my whole life I was happy doing them because I was doing what I had set out to do. It was part of the plan. Every success (raise, graduation, etc.) was vindication that I was on track.

Your kids may want to go to college or they may not. They may want to travel or not. They may turn out to be President or a bum but whatever they do it's nice to know you can help in their endeavors. Having a steady income stream will allow you to do that to whatever degree you choose.

There is also no reason you can't take the job and do the teaching on Sundays or evenings. Establish some ground rules with the boss. Tell him you're willing to work and overtime isn't a problem but you want Sundays or whatever time you choose available to you and your family. As long as you pull his butt out of whatever jam comes along then he's probably going to do whatever he can to help you. And, by the way, it's not about making the rich man richer. Totally wrong attitude. It's about enriching yourself and your family. Don't begrudge him because he's successful. He's living his dream and there's nothing wrong with that.

Decide what you want to do in life then put down on paper your short term goals and long term goals. Make them quantitative. Something that you can track and you'll know when you have achieved it. Pay off a credit card bill by June of next year is an example. And make sure they are achievable. President in 2012 is probably not doable for any of us. Then follow YOUR plan. Whatever you choose to do, maintain a balance in your life. All work or all family is really not a good choice in the long run.

EDIT: Are we married, Crash? I was typing when you posted. Pretty close ideas.

[your_comforting_company]

@ randy. Finding someone who wants to work that hard is a real challenge. I could hire someone as I have in the past, but finding someone mature enough to show up, work long hard hours.. They just don't last very long. Those mature enough are generally too old to do it as an every-day thing. Those young enough always seem to have legal/marital/drug & alcohol/other problems that end up leaving me working by myself anyway. I don't really run it like a "business" but more like "I'm just a guy who wants to work to earn his keep and pay the bills.. not get rich". The first year I went through 5 workers. one was too old to maintain, and the others were all tied up with "girl troubles".

@ Winnie. The kids think I'm successful because I'm living the kind of life(style) that I want to live. The wife is very encouraging in the primitive teaching aspect and understands how I feel about the "real job" because I was so miserable when I was there before. In fact, that job was a major part of why we got divorced in the first place. (bet you didn't know we are technically not married hehe). The issue is choosing between freedom and pursuit of happiness, versus the pursuit of the "Almighty dollar".
We do without a lot of things, like no satellite TV, no extended vacations to theme parks, but we always have good food to eat, a nice fire, and a happy home with lots of fun things to do that I won't have much time for if I get the real job. Either way we'll still be on a budget that won't be much different from what we have now, because of the added cost of not being able to do things for my(our)self. Less hunting/gathering/gardening means more expense at the grocery store.

How much time you spend working is directly proportional to the kind of lifestyle you want to live. If you want to drive around a $40,000 car, you are gonna work to pay for it.. I'm happy driving around my old clunker. I could be paying $60/ month for TV that I don't watch anyway, and if I did spend my time in front of the tv, I would be doing even less for myself. Ever since I've been working for myself, my income has steadily decreased because I find ways to replace things that were costing money with things that are free.. like the garden. The more independent I become, the less I need to work to make ends meet.
LIke randy says.. you only get one shot to get it right.. no mulligans. Will I look back and say I was happy and had a good run? or will I be like my dad and neighbor, looking back and thinking "damn, I missed out on a lot of fun stuff and now I'm too old to do any of the things I wanted to do in life".

One prime example is the Demonstration this weekend. If I had the real job, I wouldn't be able to do it because the folks that I know that still work there (several friends and my dad) are working this Saturday. Even my knapper friend that was going to demonstrate with me had to cancel because of his work schedule. Even when he was planning to attend, he needed to sell some of his wares to make "gas money", as compared to myself being able to do it because I stuck back "gas money". He makes around 30k a year, versus me making 14k, yet I have the gas money to go do a charity demonstration to help raise money for a good cause and the free time.

This logic escapes so many people.. I hope it makes sense to some of you.

[your_comforting_company]

I was typing when both of you posted.. maybe the last post helps make some of it make sense.

[Rick]

YCC - It all makes sense. Like Crash, said. I think you've already made your decision. You'll just looking for us to justify it for you. :)

What was right for me may be all wrong for you. You have to live YOUR plan.

[your_comforting_company]

I just went to talk to my Grandma about it and she said the exact same thing you guys said. She said "I can't tell you what to do".

My Grandfather was a roofer his whole life. Self employed and worked with his kids and brothers and their kids. It was a family affair. He never was a wealthy man, but he had a nice boat and tractor, and if he decided to go fishing today, he could and that was what he did. All three of his kids got regular jobs. My Aunt is Civil Service in AK, and my dad and uncle all work at the mills here. They've all got nice houses and cars and boats, etc. but they don't ever have time to enjoy them. Can't go fishing on sunday AND plant the garden.

My grandma understood completely, but still said she didn't want to influence my decision. Maybe I was just looking for justification.

I am looking to hire someone, but everyone needs something steady right now, and tbh, the inflow of construction related work is minimal. people just aren't building in this area right now. Most folks aren't prepared to get by on less, the way I am.

So.. I gotta go patch a roof now. Maybe I'll go fishing at the creek when I get done this afternoon.

[BENESSE]

...But I am in exactly the opposite predicament--trying to summon enough courage to get off the treadmill and make up for missed time.
All my life I've been responsible and did what I set out to do. I wanted it, I enjoyed it, I was challenged by it, and worked my tail off since there was no other way to get there.
I chose not to have kids so that I wouldn't have to give up anything for their sake. I missed vacations and came back early from those I took because some project "needed" me, or something "important" was at stake. I did all that not in order to acquire more stuff, but to get more freedom, security and the means to be helpful to family and friends in need.
But as Rick said, this is a mind set. And in my mind, success on the job (any job) meant success in life. Achieving a balance wasn't an option because in my profession it's all or nothing. People who frequently took time off, or had to get home early, or couldn't come in on weekends were never given big, challenging projects or a lot of responsibility and were always the first on the firing line when times got tough. It's still that way, and unfortunately it makes sense.
Now that times are tough and jobs are scarce, I can't justify walking away to pursue all that I couldn't before. It wouldn't be fair to Mr. B, who like me, works hard but would surely enjoy a slower pace. He is very supportive...encourages me to just walk away but I can't bring myself to do it. Now if one of us lost their job, it wouldn't be the end of the world. But what if I wasn't working and he lost his job? Our sense of freedom and independence wouldn't last very long. It would turn into a quest for survival instead of a quest to live life. A huge difference, the way I think about it.

[OhioGrizzLapp]

I found other ways to make money and have it be better than steady all 4 seasons. I got tired of working my arse off and taking public buses and doing my part just so welfare recepients can drive their Escalades. Now, with all the little things I do, the gun shop, rustic furniture making, selling and teaching, the hiking sticks and other various home based ventures, I make way more money wise than I ever did as an engineer.

I am having fun, more time to do the things I enjoy, more money stuffed in the mattress and I do not have idiots above me telling me what to do....I am my own chief idiot now.... errrrrr wait, that did not sound right...I am my own boss now.

Personally, I have found what is important to me in life....as well as a new found love of teching....I get a real kick out of watching people I have taught to make rustic furniture...thei first piece and the look of pride and joy on their faces is honestly worth every single minute and effert.....

[hunter63]

I can't answer your dilemma for all the reasons listed above. Only you can.

I made my own plan, or sorta fell into it, reacting to the world and life.

Left a small town to follow opportunities, more money, and a girl.

This plan involved working hard, taking care of myself/my family....First.
Second, have fun doing what you want, make time.
I believe you/ me/ all of us, are the hardest on yourself/ourselves, than anyone.

Have fun on the way, a lot of people are defined by their job, and you hear statements when meeting some one......
"Hi, My name is MR. Thusandsuch, and I am Vice president of whatever, when I retire I will "take up" gardening, camping, fishing.......yeah right.

I would just say that I am a hunter/gatherer that worked in a factory to be able to afford it.

Good fortune, my friend....Things will work out.

[Pal334]

There probably no one good answer. I have been able to "step off the treadmill" that B described. I was fortunate to have gotten myself to a Financially stable place in life to enable this to happen. I "sucked it up" on the treadmill for many years. Now I am able to basically do as I please. Granted I do still work, but is nice to know that I can walk away with no adverse consequences. I guess my rambling is meant to say that to ensure your and the kid (s) future a job is a necessity, and sometimes you have to make your "dream" accomodate that reality.

[MidWestMat]

After being a workaholic all my life, from 14 to 42 with maybe two weeks unemployed the whole time, I do have regrets. The regret is Time for my family, or the lack thereof. I worked 60 hours a week, average 14 hours a week in travel time, and on call when I wasn't working, after the Wife and I had kids so i could make sure they had things. The things I didn't have in my youth, or my Wife's youth. Now that I am disabled and we have less things, I realize the Time that I missed, and that I now get to spend Doing things with them are both more beneficial to them as adults to be, and more beneficial to our relatonships amongst ourselves as Family. Before, I did not have the time to teach or practice 'survval' skills, or practical skills, I got to talk about it but not nearly enough hands in the mix.

My family tells me that they much prefer me home and spending time with them, because that is only for a season. Better that than to lay up treasures to attempt to insure the success of strangers that they might otherwise become. Of course, in my situaton I have the support of the Wife and my children. You should speak have a heart to heart with yours and see where they would rather you be. I bet I can guess...

[randyt]

It can be a challenge to know which way to go. I've been in business for 24 years. the early years I worked my guts out, it was not fun. Then I started running the business like a business. Things improved after that. I did miss a lot of fun time and a few years ago I decided to strive to take and make time for me. Now days when I think about working for some one else I realize I could screw off and still make wages.

some folks like the security of a steady job. I've often wondered is a job really secure these days.

There is a funny thing that I've noticed about business. You can take three guys in the same business. One will go broke, one will work his guts out and barely make a living and one will make money. making money is not dishonest. I often say to my self that I have to charge enough for my service to be of service.

what ever you do, you can change your mind later and make a course correction if things aren't good.

[BENESSE]

... to ensure your and the kid (s) future a job is a necessity, and sometimes you have to make your "dream" accomodate that reality.



what ever you do, you can change your mind later and make a course correction if things aren't good.

To build on what Pal & Randyt said (also channeling my grandfather)...

When you have kids, their needs come first. You want them to feel secure, worry-free and have options in life. You know they love you, and they'll support you in anything you want to do because they want you to be happy. When you're happy, they are happy. However, they'll be less likely to verbalize that they also depend on you and look up to to you to make them feel less vulnerable to the ups and downs of life.
You can always quit a job that turns out not to be right for you, but you can't always find one when you need it most. It's also easier to land a job when you already have one. You're just more attractive to future employers.
So what's the worst that can happen if you take this job?

[Camp10]

I typed out a response but hit preview instead of submit and then lost it....I'll give the quick version. I work lots and lots of hours but I work around my schedule (middle of the night, storms, etc). I still have time for a garden, a knifeshop, hunting trips, family camping, playing on the computer (although I stuck an old computer in the knifeshop) and all kinds of other fun things for the family. I dont look at it as an either/or choice and I think that as long as you do, whatever you decide to do you will regret.

Agree to 40 hours a week and work more when it is good for you to do that. Companies have done a good job getting people to believe they are lucky to have a job but I am arrogant enough to believe that a company is lucky to have me. Someday they might think different but so far it is working for both of us!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

If the company is always working over 40 hrs. It is an inefficient process and mismanaged. Sounds like your respected there for your knowledge. Maybe get in the door but have a discussion about the future and set your sights on bigger things than pushing the go button on a CNC machine. I was a fabricator for 13 yrs. today there is not much call for one, rather a start button pusher and a lumper (parts unloader). I for one loved my trade...but as technology replaced my skilled hands, I become just that a lumper. Be cautious it may not be what it used to be to be an operator. Now the other side of the coin suppose those ambitions of bigger and better things at the company come to fruition.....hours can be long on a fixed salary and it often follows you home...sometimes being a lumper wasn't so bad...hindsight is 20/20. Most importantly if your a Dad you do what Dads do. This is not advice at all just experience.

[Rick]

Not necessarily. It's often cheaper to pay overtime than to hire additional help once you consider the loaded labor rate and the learning curve. You have to know what the break even point is between overtime and new hire and try to balance that with your projected sales.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Not necessarily. It's often cheaper to pay overtime than to hire additional help once you consider the loaded labor rate and the learning curve. You have to know what the break even point is between overtime and new hire and try to balance that with your projected sales.

I do agree I made a rather blind statement. There are alot of variables...It depends on alot of things, fatigue also has to be factored in. Injuries also enter the equation with long hours. I'll say for the most part an efficient shop does not work overtime unless the standard demand has exceeded equipment capacity or labor hours for a relatively short term.
So far as the PSI, I say horse puckey, with all due respect to Rick, he is OLDer and WISER.

[hunter63]

If the company is always working over 40 hrs. It is an inefficient process and mismanaged.....................

That is not entirely true in most cases.
I used to think like that and argued the point as a supervisor. I didn't like OT either, really didn't like it as I was on salary, pay was the same for more hours.

I guess I made a PITA of my self enough, that a senior member of management, took me aside and went over the numbers with me. He was sort of a mentor, putting up with some of my BS, but unbenounced to me at the time, I was being groomed...LOL. Yeah I did need a hair cut as well.

Anyway, if here is any kind of benefits adding to each workers cost, per hour, take home pay is normally only 1/2 to 1/3 or actual cost per employee.
When a company schedules over time, cost per hour of those benefits has already been paid, based on 40 hours, so even time and 1/2 or even double time is only adding a little bit to the take home, benefit cost is the same.

When I moved on and started doing all the production scheduling, this really showed up.
Hr Vs cost.

If you are in the trades, and pay into a lot of your own benefits, it really is makes more sense, as you see the deductions.
We had to pay taxes on the gross emount, wereas in the factory, with hiden cost of the benefits, employees were not taxed.
Just trying to clarify something I also believed for a long time.
Ok stepping down now..........

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

And so the story goes....Manufacturing left this country on the above ideals. I say no overtime invest in an efficient operation. No offense to anyone's ideals, I just have mine.

[hunter63]

And so the story goes....Manufacturing left this country on the above ideals. I say no overtime invest in an efficient operation. No offense to anyone's ideals, I just have mine.

No sweat, as our factory that did thing, that way, sold out, closed down and moved.....So I guess I should just shut up, LOL
Shutting up, now.........

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

No sweat here either Hunter...IMO the bigger waste has not been addressed, it is the corporate office of slugs that are non-value added for the most part that slugged manufacturing out of this country.

[your_comforting_company]

Now, with all the little things I do, the gun shop, rustic furniture making, selling and teaching, the hiking sticks and other various home based ventures, I make way more money wise than I ever did as an engineer.

I am having fun, more time to do the things I enjoy, more money stuffed in the mattress and I do not have idiots above me telling me what to do....I am my own chief idiot now.... errrrrr wait, that did not sound right...I am my own boss now.

Personally, I have found what is important to me in life....as well as a new found love of teching....I get a real kick out of watching people I have taught to make rustic furniture...thei first piece and the look of pride and joy on their faces is honestly worth every single minute and effert.....

Which is basically my goal. Simple, less stressful life.


After being a workaholic all my life, from 14 to 42 with maybe two weeks unemployed the whole time, I do have regrets. The regret is Time for my family, or the lack thereof. I worked 60 hours a week, average 14 hours a week in travel time, and on call when I wasn't working, after the Wife and I had kids so i could make sure they had things. The things I didn't have in my youth, or my Wife's youth. Now that I am disabled and we have less things, I realize the Time that I missed, and that I now get to spend Doing things with them are both more beneficial to them as adults to be, and more beneficial to our relatonships amongst ourselves as Family. Before, I did not have the time to teach or practice 'survval' skills, or practical skills, I got to talk about it but not nearly enough hands in the mix.

My family tells me that they much prefer me home and spending time with them, because that is only for a season. Better that than to lay up treasures to attempt to insure the success of strangers that they might otherwise become. Of course, in my situaton I have the support of the Wife and my children. You should speak have a heart to heart with yours and see where they would rather you be. I bet I can guess...

My mom was a district manager for a major chain when I was a teen. She worked my whole youth away.. just missed it almost in it's entirety. always on the road and on call.
I still don't think she's forgiven herself. I told her that she was doing what had to be done and I appreciate it, but I missed her too.


When you have kids, their needs come first. Of course, but we don't need fancy tv's and escalades and iphonepodthings...
You want them to feel secure, worry-free and have options in life. I agree.
... However, they'll be less likely to verbalize that they also depend on you and look up to to you to make them feel less vulnerable to the ups and downs of life. This is why I'm teaching them to be self sufficient. One day I'll be gone and they won't have me to help them feel any kind of way. Building confidence and a reserve of knowledge makes everyone feel less vulnerable. My youngest likes to draw and take pictures. He might be your competition some day!

You can always quit a job that turns out not to be right for you, but you can't always find one when you need it most. It wasn't right for me when I left there last time. I'm sure not much has changed.
So what's the worst that can happen if you take this job? See MidWestMatt's post above. That's how the place was before and that's how it still is.



I work lots and lots of hours but ...I still have time for a garden, a knifeshop, hunting trips, family camping, playing on the computer ..fun things for the family. I dont look at it as an either/or choice and I think that as long as you do, whatever you decide to do you will regret.

Agree to 40 hours a week and work more when it is good for you to do that. Companies have done a good job getting people to believe they are lucky to have a job but I am arrogant enough to believe that a company is lucky to have me. I told them that one day. the foreman said "you should feel lucky you have a job", and I looked around and there was only two of us on the floor and I was running 3 machines and pulling steel. I said, "No, you should feel lucky I showed up today". remember, there are 5 guys in that department now and all the years I worked there were only 3 of us.

I feel like I'm pouring out my history here lol. I think I'll mull it over for a few more days. I mean, it might not really even be an option for them to hire me back.

I appreciate the feedback, It does help to see the paths others took and how they reflect on it now.

[hunter63]

Sorry, we kinda got off track on this subject, as it's a big decision, we all wish you well.
And as have been brought up you can change your mind.

I do want to add, that after working for someone else, quiting that life and going on your own, will make it much tougher to go back, simply because now you know that you don't "Have" to be there.
At least I found that to be true....and was much harder to just dig in...

[crashdive123]

Sorry, we kinda got off track on this subject, as it's a big decision, we all wish you well.
And as have been brought up you can change your mind.

I do want to add, that after working for someone else, quiting that life and going on your own, will make it much tougher to go back, simply because now you know that you don't "Have" to be there.
At least I found that to be true....and was much harder to just dig in...

This is very true. I wouldn't change my situation at all. After the military making some real decent money for a change was nice - and I certainly took advantage of it (payed off bills, Mrs. Crash could quit a stressful job, etc.) Now, with my own business I don't make nearly the money I did, but am so much happier in what I'm doing and how I get to do it.

[Rick]

Here's a poll just for YCC

Poll: What would YOU do? (choose only one)


I'd do what makes me happy

I'd take advantage of the opportunity to get steady income and benefits

[rwc1969]

Can't tell you what to do YCC, but I will say this is a question I've been asking myself my whole life. My dad died when I was 5 trying to provide for us, working extremely long hours welding, coal mining and such. Him and his brother tried to start several businesses unsuccesfully. In the end he died and left us to fend for ourselves in a society that exploits fatherless children. I rarely got to see him when he was alive, always working. I'd much rather have him around today. The last thing he told my mom as he lay dying was "make sure them boys get an education". I'm finally doing that.

I myself, having a strong work ethic instilled by him, started working at a very young age, maybe 8 or 10 years old, I don't remember. I saved up for things and such, helped my mom when I could. Then, as I became an adult I started travelling around training customers on the repair and processes of our product. Once the customers were trained i was let go and the company I worked for sold itself to the customer. Our entire operation moved to Mexico and Brazil. I spent 5 years with them making their customer happy just to be let go as everyone else who worked there was.

I had started a college education when with that company, something i laways wanted, but could not afford and was too "well off" to get financial aid. But, I got another job making even more money. The job was in heating and cooling and required me to work 6 days every single week for the rest of my life. I made huge money doing service work, installs and sales, so I decided i didn't need to continue my dream of college as I was making more than most engineers did at the time. A year or two later I was completely burned out, had cash coming out my ears and I didn't even have to save, it just grew and grew to the point where i could buy a house and continue having no life and no free time, was even working some sundays by then. Being burned out I knew i couldn't continue so I left and took a year vaca doing whatever i felt like.

After a year my money was getting low and I went back doing water treatment, driving truck, fabrication and such. Each of these jobs progressively paid less and less and required more and more of my time. I had no social life whatsoever for a good 10 years. Simply work, sleep, eat and pay taxes while my bank account grew. It made no sense to me to have all that money and no way to enjoy it. But, without the money there isn't much way to live around here. Rent and property is, or at least was, very expensive.

But, the same thing has happened over and over. Give everything you got and then get dumped or get burned out and quit. After 3 or 4 times of this, It's now real hard for me to commit to any job. Of course, I must though, as that's how I roll, all or nothing. I got fed up with it and decided this last time to go back and get the education. Whether it pays off or just leads me into another life absorbing job is yet to be seen. I'm hoping it will eventually lead to a job that pays well enough, and has good enough benefits and time off to allow me to live.

What I'm trying to say YCC, is if the company really wants you they will compromise. If what you really want is a primitive lifestyle then what is the compromise? I gave up what i really wanted, an education, years ago for a high paying job with no time off. Now, 20 years later I'm getting back to doing what I want and what I need to be happy.

If that companyreally wants you back they will be willing to let you work 40 instead of 60, or work 5 12's instead of 6 10's, etc. etc. If they're not willing then you are just another Joe Schmoe to them. I had a simialr thing happen, but was laid off. I had found work by the time they called me back. but, a year or two later I was laid off again. I went back and told the boss I'd come back for a near 50% increase in pay, he agreed. But, he never would have agreed if he didn't get an opportunity to see what it was like not having me in the first place. Sometimes they gotta see rain before they can enjoy the sun.

If i were on the fence about it I'd question the reason why and find the answer. If the reason is you don't want to work 60, but 40 then let them know. It makes no sense getting into something that will make you miserable. Of course, you need to live, but for anything to last you must not be miserable and must have time to do the things that make you happy. If the reason is you just don't want to work a "regular" job then you have a much bigger question to answer.

I'd go with what makes me happy, because in the end that's all you, or anyone who knows you has got. My dad didn't seem too happy, and for twenty years I haven't been as happy as I'd like. I'd rather be poor and happy than rich and miserable. But, rich and happy would be ideal.

[BENESSE]

There IS a middle ground. Balance IS possible.
It's easy to pick extremes, but extremes carry risk. If you can accept and live with that, then go with it.

[BENESSE]

I'd rather be poor and happy than rich and miserable. But, rich and happy would be ideal.
Neither is acceptable rwc, and most people fall somewhere in the middle. I certainly do. And as for ideals, well, I don't know of any.

[randyt]

All this talk about happiness and money reminds me of a anti drug commercial I saw years ago. I'm not insinuating anybody is on drugs. For some reason it's came to me. money can be a drug too in my opinion.

it went like this
a guy is walking real fast in a circle talking with his hands. he says I work more hours so I can do more coke so I can work more hours so I can do more coke so I can work more hour so I can.............so on and so on. For some reason it reminds me of consumers that get themselves into debt.

[your_comforting_company]

Thanks for the inputs. I still don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure that after today I'll at least have some idea of direction.

[Camp10]

Thanks for the inputs. I still don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure that after today I'll at least have some idea of direction.

Whatever route you go, I wish you the best of luck and I hope that everything works out for you!

[Justin Case]

I say do what makes you happy,,,, Thats what life is about,, its too short ,,, if you are happy those around you are happy,, and the other way around,,,

[your_comforting_company]

You know.. I might not have lots of money, but being able to spend time with the kids whenever I want to is priceless. I talked about it with the Mrs. and she said she'd rather I NOT be miserable, and that she can live without all those fancy "material" things. She loves how me and the kids spend time together and, like myself, remembered what it was like to have parents who don't ever have time for you.

I might be poor, but I'm happy. I have a lot more freedom than most folks.

There's still no formal announcement for a job opening, so it might not be an option anyway. Eventually all these patch jobs are gonna need whole roofs, so work has got to pick back up soon.

In the last year or two, I've seen construction companies that have been building houses here for 40+ years, some that my grandad did roof-work for, that are folding because their lifestyle is so expensive that they can no longer weather this downturn. Funny how most of them are driving HUGE gas-guzzling SUV's and live in fancy two-story houses with 15 bedrooms. Yeah, my house is small, but it's dang sure more affordable, more comfortable to me (us), and while it ain't fancy, it's a home instead of a house.

[aflineman]

A few years back, I would have said take the job and be done. I have a different take now.
A good friend of mine left the military at 17 years in. 3 years before he could retire. He came into a little money, and needed the free time (and lack of deployments) to follow his dream. He invested in his larger company, and it did OK before folding. About a year after he got out, he was diagnosed with colon cancer. Went through all the treatments, and because of that his business folded. He is a cancer survivor, and could not be happier in life. Has another small endeavor he started, and is enjoying that and his kids/grand-kids. He still says it is the best thing that happened to him.
I would find it hard to give-up a good paying job, even if I disliked it. Lucky for me I got laid-off of mine, and found one I enjoy doing (even if it was not a job I ever expected to be doing).

[BENESSE]

Someone famous/successful once said...follow your dream and the money will come and I agree with that. I certainly followed my dream to do what I wanted (art) despite my mom's apprehension about being able to make a living at it. Well, art segued into graphic design which segued into product design, advertising and marketing. All related, all still interesting after all these years.
You never know where things might lead, but if you love what you are doing, and would do it even if you weren't paid, you couldn't ask for more.

[your_comforting_company]

You never know where things might lead, but if you love what you are doing, and would do it even if you weren't paid, you couldn't ask for more.

I think that right there sums it up. If you hate what you're doing you'll be unhappy no matter how much they pay you.
How much money per hour would it take for you to work in a slaughterhouse B?

[BENESSE]

I think that right there sums it up. If you hate what you're doing you'll be unhappy no matter how much they pay you.
How much money per hour would it take for you to work in a slaughterhouse B?

There's NO amount of $ that would induce me to do it.
I'd rather pull weeds with my teeth on the side of the road, for a crust of stale bread and a cup of water.

[rwc1969]

Someone famous/successful once said...follow your dream and the money will come and I agree with that... if you love what you are doing, and would do it even if you weren't paid, you couldn't ask for more.

That's a good point. And, this thread has me wondering how some of the primitive skills folks manage to become succesful in it as it does take a lot of time to learn and practice these skills, not to metion getting the word out. Makes me wonder if they inherited large amounts of cash, lawsuit, disabiltiy? how do they find the time and still pay the bills while learning and getting their "business" off the ground?

[your_comforting_company]

Most of the ones I've met are retired. Ben at chehaw was a ranger/forester, and he's the head of the zoo. So, he has good income and can teach classes on the side, at "his" zoo. He also has made contributions to a lot of books, and was a historian (or something like it) at UGA. Russell Cutts is a professional paleoarchaeologist and used to work at the Funk Heritage Museum, and an author of several books. A lot of the folks I've met live very simple lives, much like SD.

I have no illusions about it (teaching primitive stuff) becoming a career. My thing is that if I were to fall back into that boring routine job again, I wouldn't have time for anything "real". I like having the freedom/option to choose what I do today, and while it might be the same thing I did yesterday, usually I at least get a change of scenery, both on the commute and location of the job. I do like the prospect of bringing self-reliance skills to folks.

My Dad, my knapper friend, my neighbor across the road.. none of them were able to come to the demo this past Saturday. When I went by there on the way to the Park, I saw all the cars lined up like ants marching. Which was my contention for posting this thread. As much as my dad probably would have liked to come show his son some support, he was unable due to work. I NEVER want to have to tell my kids "I don't have time for (insert kids hobby here) with you, I have to work today". When we let our careers start to dictate our lives, something is taken away from us. The only person who got to share in the experience of that event with me was my youngest son... For which I am eternally grateful.

It's not that I am unhappy doing what I do. I do good work for folks that need a good job done at a competetive price. Things are just slow right now, but it's gotta pick up sooner or later. With the wife working at a good job with benefits, I think we can weather it a little longer.

As far as the question of 'how do they make paying careers out of teaching primitive skills' goes, I don't think it would be possible to make a career out of it, but rather it's a supplement to income, and it's something they enjoy, and find it rewarding to "teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime".

[hunter63]

Well said, ycc, another saying I like and believe is, "Do something you love and you will never truly work".
Sorry B, sorta a slightly version of your advice, but important enough to reinforce.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/index.php?topic=1.0)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)