Accelerating events

[Don]

Well, its snowing and school is canceled so here I sit. Don't know if this is the appropriate place to start a thread like this so moderators feel free to move or delete my post. Any way, I'm sure I'm preaching to the chior here but are the rest of you looking at national and international events and thinking that our preparations have new urgency? Having been a student of history and current events my whole life I can honestly can say I have never seen the elements of the perfect storm come together the way they are coming together now. Evil governments operating unfettered, economic and political chaos at home and abroad and no end to bad news. I know I'm not alone in this kind of thinking. I went on an emergency supply site where I have purchased much of my food stockpile and I noticed something remarkable. Just a few months ago 90% of the items on that site were in stock now 90% of those items are back ordered. I think folks are getting the hebby jebbies as well as I am. Several moths ago I looked into buying silver but aborted the purchase. At first I regretted that choice but now I'm wondering how much value gold and silver are going to have when folks are starving. I had been hoping that economic disruption would be the worst of what we would be dealing with, now I think we will face much worse. I know I'll be continuing my preparations with renewed effort. Buying and storing food stuffs in bulk and preping them for long term storage. I'll also be expanding my gardening efforts. I'm also going to pay off my mortgage this week and investing extra cash in my preparations. As a measure of my concern, I've put off further gun purchases and focused more on spare parts, ammo and needed accesories. I have enough guns but not enough of other supplies. Don't want to be depressing but just wanted to get others takes on what has been happening.




Don

[gitaway]

i agree. This is entirely nutty. Preps is my best defense. Living under the radar too. g.

[Don]

i agree. This is entirely nutty. Preps is my best defense. Living under the radar too. g.

Under the radar is a good point. I have few modern style firearms and several of them were private sales or gifts. The rest of my guns are black powder with no paper trail outside of a sales invoice. Black powder guns have obvious disadvantages but they are low profile in terms of ATF interest. I suspect that gang activity will become more problematic as the economic problems get worse so lookin like the average joe with no more money than anyone else is a good idea. No high end cars,jewelry,clothes etc. I'm always thinking about how to carry as discreetly as possible and how to avoid trouble to start with.

Don

[Rick]

Actually, I don't see it any different that it has been for the last 10,000 years. Only this time it's our perspective and where we live. I guess if you lived under the rule of Count Vlad the Impaler or perhaps lived in a land overrun by Attila the Hun or lived in France under Maximilien Robespierre or under the Kmer Rhouge and the evil Pol Pot or Ivan the IV of Russia or any of the thousands of other sadists that have ruled down through the ages you might view our world a bit differently. You don't have to go back too many years to see men like Hitler, Stalin or Idi Amin. Today it's just different countries with different men. Same old S@#$ different day.

[Don]

Yes, history does repeat itself but I don't agree that its the same old same old. The world wasn't connected economically and technologically the way it is now. Events on the other side of the glob effects us more now than ever. This dust up in the middle east is going to send energy prices high and thus every thing else. So much for our economic recovery. All Iran has to do is shut down the Straights of Hormuz and we have a real crisis. In terms of keeping a low profile, yeah the strategies of old are applicable now. With one exception, what I'm doing right now. Tyrants will undoubtedly use the internet to identify their enemies as Qaddafi already has.

Don

[hunter63]

Actually, I don't see it any different that it has been for the last 10,000 years. Only this time it's our perspective and where we live. I guess if you lived under the rule of Count Vlad the Impaler or perhaps lived in a land overrun by Attila the Hun or lived in France under Maximilien Robespierre or under the Kmer Rhouge and the evil Pol Pot or Ivan the IV of Russia or any of the thousands of other sadists that have ruled down through the ages you might view our world a bit differently. You don't have to go back too many years to see men like Hitler, Stalin or Idi Amin. Today it's just different countries with different men. Same old S@#$ different day.

Yeah, we just hear about it quicker.........

[BH51]

I share your thinking Don,.....I often ponder the importance of money and material
things within the various possibilities...to live within ones means is no doubt a
consideration...particularly should a scenerio develope that would be unpredicted..
Being show-offish of power, money and material things would definately be asking
for it in a gang'land sense...To avoid trouble is to avoid being where trouble can
start, in my thinking.....the media presents a powerful picture of whoe's world'wide
but technology has greatly improved media coverage and ideal for commercialism...
No telling what the future holds but I'm hopeful the economy strengthens sooner
than later....for now, I sit back and observe (with my shotgun across my lap)...BH51

[Rick]

It's exactly the same. The world was much smaller then. If you were hanging head down on a wooden rod some place in Wallachia or being shot in the middle of some Cambodian field it really wouldn't matter how big or how small the world was. It's just a matter a perspective. I get your point but in the old days the world was only about as far as you could see. Change one thing and you either starved to death or died of disease or some fool helped you into your grave in a cruel and unusual way. Today it's money. (shrug)

[Don]

It's exactly the same. The world was much smaller then. If you were hanging head down on a wooden rod some place in Wallachia or being shot in the middle of some Cambodian field it really wouldn't matter how big or how small the world was. It's just a matter a perspective. I get your point but in the old days the world was only about as far as you could see. Change one thing and you either starved to death or died of disease or some fool helped you into your grave in a cruel and unusual way. Today it's money. (shrug)

I get what your saying Rick. I'm just saying that just because we live in a wealthy nation where we have rights doesn't mean we arn't vulnerable to outside influences.

Don

[BENESSE]

I'm with Rick.
We're also luckier than most (despite our beef with all sorts of things) because we live in this country. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't trade lives with anyone, anywhere, even in countries where people are "taken care" of more. We know what that means, and we don't like it.

We also have more options and can choose extremes because of how vast and geographically diverse our land is. We can give it all up to lead a serene life in a one room cabin in AK or we can live in the center of a great city with all the benefits that entails. We just pick up and move.
We don't have dictators. We have free speech, we have a rule of law and we're free to worship or not. We vote people in or out of office. When we don't like those currently in office it's because we were not in the majority who voted for them. It's guaranteed that some people at any given time are not gonna be happy no matter what.

All this doesn't mean that we shouldn't complain or expect certain things to be better--they always can. It just means that we need to maintain a certain perspective and not get terminally worked up over stuff we can't change and are unwilling to compromise.

[Rick]

We sure are, Don. Probably more so because of who we are. I don't believe we should be the world's police department but an awful lot of other countries look to us for that. The only reason I responded and responded in the way I did was you asked.


...are the rest of you looking at national and international events and thinking that our preparations have new urgency?

I just don't feel a new urgency...or any urgency. I prepare for weather events or those unplanned accidents like a chemical leak or some nut job in a meth lab. Ours is one of the few countries, in my opinion, in which we don't have to worry too much about economic collapse and not at all about some political overthow. I'm much more concerned about a tornado in April. Just my opinion.

[Don]

I agree with the fact that we are more fortunate than most in that we have a political tradition unlike any other that works to our advantage. I also agree that geographically we are at an advantage. My point is that despite those advantages things can still get desperate here. Desperate enough to make our lives every bit as uncomfortable and unpridictable as a 70's era Cambodian or an Iraqi in recent years. What needs to be remebered is that the moral sensabilities of Americans today is not the same as previous generations. Not that I'm judging people younger than my self but they are used to a different life style. To be sure todays politicians are much more self serving. It is my hope and expectation that in bad times Americans regardless of age will rise to the occasion and pull together. But anyone who posts here is likely to be the type to hedge their bets.

Don

[Rick]

Many will probably disagree with me but I'm not at all sure politicians are any more self serving today than in the past. There have been so many examples of terminally stupid politicians through the last 200 years. Again, I think it's a matter of perspective. The 70s gave us Watergate, the 50s the Commie plots, etc. all the way back. Every decade has seen an ebb and flow of rights. The early 20th Century saw Prohibition. If you lived then and liked to imbibe then you had to believe the country had lost its mind. Imagine losing those kinds of rights. Why a man can't even sit at his own table in his own house and drink a bit of brandy!

All I'm trying to do is have folks think a minute to all the stuff that has come before us. We think it's terrible today because of our perspective. Hey! It's happening to us! But the truth is it has happened to everyone before us, too.

I don't see a 70s Cambodia or recent Iraq occurring here. That kind of armed take over is damned near impossible. If someone would take over the White House it wouldn't be placards marching down Pennsylvania Avenue it would be all of us armed to the teeth. You step on the American flag and there will be any number of people willing to take you aside and give instruction on respect.

[kyratshooter]

It's not really any more interconnected now than it ever was, we are just in on more as individuals now than ever before. Being immidiately notified of happenings we feel we should be able to do something we can not do. As stated, there is a lot we just can't dent as individuals.

We must also remember that most of the world does not live under elected governent, and most of the turmoil is someone trying to gain individual power or some group trying to spread that power out. Even in our own country that struggle is constant.

As far as preppers and out of stock merchandise, what do you expect, we have a Democrat in office. That is not to put down liberals or Democrats, just a statement of fact. Our population has been polarized for the last half century, and the conservitive side has not had a great deal of confidence in the abilities of a liberal to handle real problems, social, economic or international, therefore we prepare to care for our own needs seperate from government decisions.

I started prepping in the Kennedy Admin (cold war), started my military training under the Johnson Admin(Viet Namn), bought my first retreat location in the Carter Admin(Iranian hostage crisis) and started teaching friends and relitives during the Clinton years(Ruby Ridge and growth of AlQuida) and now Obama has me dug in deeper than ever. Yep, the doom cycles repeat themselves just as soon as people forget what happened last time.

[Don]

Perhaps I'm more pessimistic than some of you or just too new to the idea of being prepared. What ever the case may be I appreciate the comments, it made for an interesting back and forth.

Don

[Rick]

You bet! And that's a lot of what this forum is about. Your opinion is a valid one. Just as valid as anyone else's. The ability to exchange ideas with each other improves us both. Sort of like sitting around the camp fire and swapping lies. We may not be any better off when it's over but we enjoyed some time together and got to know one another a little better.

[bobzilla]

I think people are adapting to a new norm,less debt and living more with in their means,it reminds me of the seventies,oil,gold,commodities higher,yet people are getting more physically conservative.I guess if you live long enough,history repeats itself,just an old hippie looking back?

[SARKY]

In the past year we've seen the writing on the wall and have stockpiled supplies. I have also been reloading like a fiend. No matter how well supplied you are, you will be wishing you had more.

[BENESSE]

In the past year we've seen the writing on the wall and have stockpiled supplies. I have also been reloading like a fiend. No matter how well supplied you are, you will be wishing you had more.

That's always the case, isn't it?
The only difference being, (for me) wishing more of x (water & mountain house) and less of y (shoes & shoes).

[crashdive123]

Never underestimate the value of good footwear.:innocent:

[BENESSE]

Thank you Crash.

[sushidog]

Don, I completely agree with your assessemnt of current events. Yes, I've lived to see much come and go, however for the very first time in my life I'm beginning to envision the probability of an imminent middle eastern Caliphate, driving the price of oil to unprecidented and un-sustainable levels. Remember that 2/3 of the worlds population will starve to death if food prices only double - and they could easily and quickly rise much higher than that - and that's just the start of our problems. Cut off our oil imports and many will starve right here in the breadbasket of the world. Having survived Katrina, I have a different perspective than most. Never again did I think I would load my rifle with the intent of taking another human life. Never did I think I would be instructing my DW how to use a shotgun to kill Americans on American soil. Things got very bad here - worst than most can imagine. My Nephew, a vet. combat chopper pilot, was flying for Acadian Air Ambulance at the time. He was flying rescue missions into New Orleans day and night - the FAA rule book was thrown out the window - flying off of stims and IV's. Some survivors were throwing babies into his chopper in an attempt to save their young lives (at the expense of their own) while others were insanely firing on the air ambulances, trying to bring them down, forcing my nephew to arm himself in return. I can't begin to write the atrocities I've seen and heard. These sobering events are but a small gentile prelude to what will soon come to pass if oil prices get much higher (assuming this is not due to hyperinflation) which is another very real threat in and of itself.

I guess you guys think I'm a kook, and maybe I am. But if you would have been where I've been and seen what I've seen, you'd probably be one too.

As far as paying off your home, I think that's an excercise in futility. Remember, that you can only keep what you can defend. After Katrina most people moved out of this area causing the property tax base to shrink to a tiny fraction of what it was. The solution the local govt. came up with was to re-assess everyone's home. no one voted on a property tax increase, yet almost everyone's property tax skyrocketed. Mine went up over 1,000% - no, that's not a misprint. What's to stop them from raising it another 1,000% whenever they want to. The moral of the story: The govt. will steal your property whenever they want and there's not a darn thing you can do about it - if you don't want to end up in jail or worse. Well there's a lot more I can say on the subject, but I'll probably end up in trouble. Sometimes it's best to play your cards close to your chest. We all know these boards are actively monitored to search for "domestic terrorist" activities - meaning anyone who disagrees with the current administration. No, this is not the first administration who's done it, however that doesn't make it any less dangerous today then when patriotic Americans of foreign descent were imprisoned for years without benefit of trial in internment camps. Be advised - be very careful what you say here or anywhere online - even in socalled "private communications."

You can stockpile what you can carry or cache, however I think it's too late for investing in gold and silver, though a bag of junk silver might be useful, if you don't think things will get too bad. I'm more of the opinion that it's beans and bullets time. Our lives may soon depend on our ability to shoot, move and communicate. Absorb as much knowledge and learn as many basic skills as you can right now, because I believe that our ability to gather like this and share thoughts and info will soon be coming to an end, based on the President's new found power to shut down the Internet in an unspecified "national emergency" - for our own safety of course.

Chip

[BENESSE]

As far as paying off your home, I think that's an excercise in futility. Remember, that you can only keep what you can defend.
Chip

Also remember that you can only keep what you've paid for. You loose your job, you get hurt or sick, you're behind a house payment or two, and you're out on your behind. You gotta survive every day challenges before you survive a middle eastern Caliphate, IMHO.

[Winnie]

I find it hard to get riled up about this sort of thing. Rick said somewhere else that History has shown that these sort of events have happened before and we have survived. The troubling bit at the time may not have been very nice. As for the Inernet being shut down, those of us old enough to remember life pre computers we used pen and paper, telephone, radio, telegraph(yes I'm old enough to remember telegrams) as methods of communication. Yes it's slower, but it just goes to show you don't need the internet and cell phones. News gets around eventually. What's the problem?
The crash of 1929 caused far worse damage and for far longer than what is happening in the middle east today. As I see it, people are very scared of losing the luxuries that makes up much of todays lifestyle. I'm not overly bothered at losing a lot of those luxuries, although I would miss the internet and my washing machine:innocent:

[sushidog]

Also remember that you can only keep what you've paid for. You loose your job, you get hurt or sick, you're behind a house payment or two, and you're out on your behind. You gotta survive every day challenges before you survive a middle eastern Caliphate, IMHO.

Of course you are correct. I'm certainly not advising anyone to encur or remain in debt. I'm just trying to remind folks that just because your property is paid for, free and clear, that the government may take it from you anyway. The day before yesterday I was in bankruptcy court because I'm losing my house due to my DW's unemployment. I can't afford to pay my mortgage, my second mortgage (made to repair my home from the damages of Hurricane Katrina) and the outrageous 1,000% jump in property taxes with only one income. But let say my wife didn't lose her job and I was able to pay off my home and retire with my property completely paid, what's to stop them from raising my property taxes year after year until I can no longer afford to live there? Many farmers have lost their family farms for this exact reason. The tax rates didn't go up, but assessor says my .45 acre rural property (not counting the value of my 40 yr old home) is worth $50,000 (that's over $100,000/acre!) just because it's on a secondary highway. What will you do when they say your land is worth 1 million an acre? How about 10 million an acre? Good luck trying to sell it for anywhere near what they say it's worth! My home was on the market at well below appraised value for over 2 years with not a single, rediculous offer. If they came after my house, they might come after your home next. Yes, it will be easier to pay their $3,000/yr (less than my current property tax), $30,000/yr, $300,000/yr property tax or whatever they decide you owe, if your home is paid for. I'm just saying there will come a point where no one but millionaires will be able to afford to own anything anymore, so they'll force us to all be wards of the socialist State. All I'm saying is be ready because if they can do it to me they can do it to you.

Chip

[BENESSE]

Sushidog, I'm real sorry you're in that predicament. There but for the grace of God, go I...or anyone for that matter.
I wish you the best of luck and a speedy reversal of fortune, for that happens too.

[SARKY]

I have to agree, it's beans and bullets time. The greed and corruption of our elected (sic) officials and the absolute greed of the civil servants is disgusting. Quite frankly, if the states go under because of their greed, I don't care if they starve. When they finally wake up maybe then they will realize it was their union bosses that put them in this position.

[Rick]

I think you've extrapolated some things into your scenario out of frustration. Rising taxes should have been a foregone conclusion for that area. Sarky, my friend, you can call it greed if you wish but let's take a look at the reality of the New Orleans area. It encountered one of the worst natural disasters ever and the communities sustained untold damage to public utilities and public property. Damage that had to be repaired and paid for. The economic down turn means less federal and state dollars are flowing into communities. The fact that taxes increased is pretty understandable.

Signed contracts, union or otherwise, have to be honored or renegotiated. That's a legal requirement. I suppose if municipalities had some crystal ball then they would have not signed them or negotiated something much lower but no one did and the problem is now universal.

Sushi - I'm not making any sort of judgment call on your situation so please don't read one into it. You did not have a crystal ball either so any one of us may have made the very same decisions and found ourselves in a similar situation. I'm only pointing out to others what I've posted before and that's the fact that taxes are going to rise in order to bail out states and the federal government from the terrible debt we've incurred. The only questions are when and how much.

One thing that should be a consideration in your post is the fact that those who have purchased land as a fall back could very well lose it under the right of eminent domain. It's not common but if it happens to you then it really doesn't matter how common it is. So it's something to think about when you select your land for purchase. Could come utility company or gas line company want this land for a substation at some point in time. Just something to think about.

I do hope you get through this as painlessly as possible and better skies are ahead for you.

[sushidog]

Thanks Benesse and Rick for your understanding. Yes, hindsight is 20/20, and yes we all color our perceptions of reality based on our own personal experience. How can one not alter one's threat assessment after watching (and participating in) the near complete destruction and societal collapse of one's home town? That said, I feel good about my future, as I trust God knows what's best for me, regardless what I might think about His plan. I've decided a full time mobile lifestyle is the option I'm being steered towards. It may be my best survival option. As weaponry and surveillance equipment advances beyond the civilian's ability to mount a direct, organized defense, I believe going underground and maintaining a low profile may be our best chance of surviving an unknown future sociatal change - be it a revolution or socialist/communist/muslim (whatever) takeover of our country. True the chance of such an event taking place in the near future may seem exceedingly low to most. However, recent global events are nudging the unthinkable into our radar of remote possibilities one needs to seriously consider and prepare for. The perfect time for such an event to happen would seem to be after a natural disaster or fuel shortage triggered food shortage "stressing the system." They would only need to wait with open arms as the bulk of the unprepared and terrified masses run to these waiting dictators for safety and to avoid certain mass starvation. I guarantee that a " messiah" will materialize to rescue us at a terrible price.

Chip

[Rick]

You do know this stuff has happened from time immemorial, right? Countries in the third world are over thrown all the time. Look at a map from 10 years ago. You won't even find some of the those countries today because the name has changed. What would you have thought during the toppling of a President or Vice President or during the Cuban Missile Crisis or Communist witch hunt of the 50s? How about WWII or the Depression or WWI? Or any event in any decade since forever? I'm serious, it's only a matter of perspective. We didn't live that stuff so only today's stuff is the real deal. But it was real for my parents and my grand parents. Whatever happened to Y2K? Did I ever tell you what's behind the Hale Bopp comet?

[beetlejuicex3]

I've never been an alarmist or survival guy (before now). I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But I went without power for 2 weeks just from an ice storm. It wasn't pretty.

The financial system nearly fell entirely apart 2 years ago and is teetering at best. We were 45 minutes away from Marshall law when Bush was in office over concerns there was going to be a run on banks and money market funds. 45 minutes from marshall law...

A friend of mine knows a trader at JP Morgan. The trader admits it is well known that many times more silver is traded in notes and futures in London everyday than actual silver exists. If the paper ever got called there would be huge losses and the price of silver would sky-rocket. This is just one example of the smoke and mirrors financial system we live in. The more I learn, the more concerned I get. Then I look at younger generations - resilient, hopeful, inspired, adaptable, ready for challenges.

I think we'll be alright in the end but there is much more pain to come, imo. As we are seeing today, even one natural disaster could overload the system.

[Rick]

I'd like to see a source on the 45 minutes to marshal law if you have one.

You trader friend is correct for the moment but it hasn't always been that way with silver. There is a very unique situation that silver is currently undergoing. It's called backwardation, which simply means that current prices are higher than future prices are projected to be be. It has to do with supply and demand with demand being very high and supply being low. As supply catches up then silver futures will stabilize back to normal. It's really no big deal but it is pretty rare. The odds of everyone cashing in at the same time probably just as rare.

[Trabitha]

Agreed...that 45 min. away from marshall law under Bush would have been front page worthy, given his "popularity". I don't remember hearing anything at all.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Ignoring the urgency of our problems is why they have grown to levels beyond our control. We have already failed collectively to face up to the challenges and it is too late now. If anything is to be done it will be up to the indivivdual and those efforts will not be enough to save everybody. You must fend for yourself. There will be more suffering and death at increasing levels. Some will see it coming, some won't.

[Rick]

Too late for what? To fix it? Bzzzzt. Wrong answer. We can continue to pay the interest on the debt through 2020. If we don't get it fixed by then we will have problems but we have time if we get started on it. I have a spare pair of rose colored glasses I'll lend you.

Ohio and Wisconsin have already started by giving notice to public employees that their negotiations are now limited. Indiana is on the verge and will probably pass a similar law in the next week or so. It's going to be painful for all of us but it can still be fixed.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Too little, too late. Major changes must be made too the entire structure of civilization. Local economies not global ones, birth control is better than famine and war to bring population in balance with sustainability, conservation is the most immediate and effective way to deal with energy crisis, and the list could go on and on. Civilization has peaked and is on a downhill slide. All that is left fighting over what remains.

We are in collapse NOW!

[Trabitha]

...I'm sorry...but did you just imply that it's better to force women NOT to have children rather than worry about feeding them?
I kind of stopped reading after that.
It's funny how most men cringe about having their "manhood" snipped...but then there are so many more that are all too eager to back women popping a pill to keep them from having children.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

...I'm sorry...but did you just imply that it's better to force women NOT to have children rather than worry about feeding them?
I kind of stopped reading after that.
It's funny how most men cringe about having their "manhood" snipped...but then there are so many more that are all too eager to back women popping a pill to keep them from having children.

I made no such distinction. Over population period. It will not change and no one will step up to take responsibilty. Male or female.

[Rick]

Can you offer up some reasoning to show why we are in collapse?

[crashdive123]

AS - the current population of the planet is about 6.9 billion. Why are current levels unsustainable? What level do you think it should be at? Why? How do you propose we get there?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

There is no way around our dependence on oil. Without it 2/3 of the population can not be feed. As it is depleted so shall we if we don't kill ourselves first fighting over it.

[Rick]

Well, actually there is a way around our dependence on oil. At least to a very large degree. We could easily convert our transportation to natural gas, of which about 90% is produced right here in the U.S. Only about half (2009 numbers) of crude oil is imported. So those things that can't be made by switching to something other than crude could still be made if our transportation sector ran primarily on NG. Things like pharmaceuticals, for example. Russia actually produces more crude than Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia only produces about 3% more crude than we do.

Gasoline makes up a little over 19% of what crude is used for in the U.S., Diesel about 10%.

Here's a fun fact. Did you know a barrel of crude oil is 44 gallons? It's true.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=oil_home-basics

[randyt]

Did you know that it was John R that came up with the 44 gallon standard?

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I don't buy it either Rick. My Grandfather worked for sun gas through the 60's into the 90"s. He had a regular ole' 80' something GMC truck that could traverse the nation without stopping for gas. It ran on propane. It is pathetic that the permit made it cost prohibitive. A simple bolt on conversion he did himself. A brand new Hyster forklift has the same motor as a S10 pickup and runs for literally a week on a small cylinder of natural gas and burns clean enough to run indoors. We need to get off our duffs and do it!

[Rick]

Money is what's stopping us. As long as the petroleum industry makes money on crude they have no reason to convert. I don't like it but I certainly understand their reasoning.

[Rick]

Did you know that it was John R that came up with the 44 gallon standard?

I thought it was Winnie. I just figured the conversion to gallons messed her up.:whistling:

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Money is what's stopping us. As long as the petroleum industry makes money on crude they have no reason to convert. I don't like it but I certainly understand their reasoning.

I seriously doubt it is cost prohibitive now for the permit. I will check into it. Grandpa's truck is sitting there ready to do it. The tank is in his backyard. He was the best man I ever knew, he has since passed on to the glory land. Something inside me is saying do this.

[randyt]

Cowboy,

are you talking compressed natural gas or propane? My family has run lots of equipment on propane. Trucks, tractors, sawmills. however propane is a product of the oil industry.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Cowboy,

are you talking compressed natural gas or propane? My family has run lots of equipment on propane. Trucks, tractors, sawmills. however propane is a product of the oil industry.

I am pretty sure it was propane. I'll have to get back to you to be 100% on that.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Wouldn't the delivery system be the same either way? Pa Pa had switch he mounted under the steering column. It'd act up when he changed over but only for a second. He ran gas or propane. This ain't rocket science you feed the air pump a combustible and controll the flow.

[randyt]

the main difference is with compressed natural gas the tank has to be filled by compression in order to obtain enough btus to be practical. Propane has more btus per cubic foot and is easier to pump and does not require the high compression in order to fill a tank.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

the main difference is with compressed natural gas the tank has to be filled by compression in order to obtain enough btus to be practical. Propane has more btus per cubic foot and is easier to pump and does not require the high compression in order to fill a tank.

I agree that is why Pa Pa had an LP tank in the bed of the truck... It looks like we're pissing up a rope. I did a quick search and it is on the consumer to do this it is out there. Here ya go!

http://truckaccessoryguide.com/2008/07/10/natural-gas-conversions-for-pickup-trucks/

[randyt]

I've thought about converting to compressed natural gas but the keeping track of the road tax seemed like a big PIA. I have enough tax to keep track of.

[sushidog]

AS - the current population of the planet is about 6.9 billion. Why are current levels unsustainable? What level do you think it should be at? Why? How do you propose we get there?

The ways we have traditionally gotten there is disease, famine and war (not necessarily in that order.) We can sustain 6.9 billion fine now with the current warm climate and low fuel costs. Like I said, if oil were to double in price 2/3rds of the world population would starve to death. Of course there would be wars to decide which 2/3rds that would be. This is hard for Americans to imagine as we spend less than 10% (on average) of our income on food, however populous countries like India spend over 53% of their income on food. Food costs increase directly proportional with the price of oil. Do the math. Other things which might trigger such a reduction in world population might be a geological event (flood basalt, super volcano, etc.), an astrological event, or simply a cyclical cooling of the earth, such as we experienced during the "little ice age" after the middle ages. Pandemics would certainly follow such global calamities if history is any indication of future events.

Developed countries might decide to limit population size by choice, however it's doubtful that under-developed countries (with agrarian cultures) would do this through free will. Anything other than free choice would be unthinkable for us, however compulsory population control is being practiced today by 1.2 billion communist Chinese.

Chip

[Camp10]

I have a hard time believing that its either oil or nothing. Before oil, people used steam and before that, horses. Water and wind powered machinery before electricity and the world got by. Yeah, there are lots more people here then there was 150 years ago but there are many advancements in technology that will replace fossil fuel when oil prices become high enough for a substitute to be profitable.

As long as government doesnt put a complete strangle hold on capitalism, a substitute that is effecient, reliable and sustainable will come along before 2/3 of the planet die....IMO

[Rick]

I don't have any insider information but I'd bet Detroit (Japan, too) has a long range plan in place. After all, it costs money to retool and they are going to lean toward whatever makes them the most money be that electric or fuel cell or something else.

As to populations being sustainable. You know folks are working on new food crops, right? GA foods will increase yields substantially and will continue to feed us for years to come. Like it or not it's one answer. Removing land from the land bank and putting it into production another and NOT moving forward with bio-fuel but using that grain for food yet another. So there are a number of answers available to continue feeding a growing population. Of course, if anyone wants to help with the problem I guess they could off themselves right now. No? No takers?

[Don]

Can you offer up some reasoning to show why we are in collapse?

I can't offer this as proof but as another reason to believe humanity is at a tipping point. One of the biggest catalists behind the unrest in Egypt and the middleeast is food prices. As places like China and India become more developed the demand for more goods increases, food being a primary demand. This creates inflation in food prices that hit hard in highly populated but underdeveloped areas like Africa and the Middleeast. People will cope with oppresion as long as they are well feed but when the cleptocracies create hunger then folks riot. Even in the US we are seeing the labor unrest in WI get bitter. There are those who will stir the pot and things here could get very bad.Add the folks who have been out of work for over a year and they could become desperate enough to be manipulated by political aggitators. Not sure how the disaster in Japan will effect us but it could be bad.

Don

[Rick]

So, mankind has been at the tipping point for just about ever, then? The world has faced starvation for a long time even developed countries. The Egyptian rulers lost power in the Old Kingdom because of famine. People were eating their children! That was in BCE over 2000 years ago. Every 100 year period has horrible examples of famine and we are still around.

As for labor unrest, you should have been around when the unions were first forming. Now THAT was labor unrest.

Why doesn't anyone believe this stuff has happened over and over and over? It's just a matter of perspective. It's happening to us. That's the only difference.

[Don]

So, mankind has been at the tipping point for just about ever, then? The world has faced starvation for a long time even developed countries. The Egyptian rulers lost power in the Old Kingdom because of famine. People were eating their children! That was in BCE over 2000 years ago. Every 100 year period has horrible examples of famine and we are still around.

As for labor unrest, you should have been around when the unions were first forming. Now THAT was labor unrest.

Why doesn't anyone believe this stuff has happened over and over and over? It's just a matter of perspective. It's happening to us. That's the only difference.

The world didn't have the huge population it has now or huge metropolitan areas and nuclear weapons. Now the powers that be in the universe may just deside to cull the herd and there will be intense suffering for a period of years and we'll learn to cope with less and go back to using old technologies we used before and everything will be hunky dory. But I can't buy the argument that now is the same as the past, too much has changed.

Don

[LowKey]

Because no one does the research Rick. The one thing about the internet generation is once some sky-is-falling blog gets written it gets regurgitated in a bizarre form of Telephone Game until half the population thinks it's true. I have a not so vague feeling this is also used as a not-so-random means of deflection.

I occasionally get these scare feelings but do some back checking and figure, like you do, that someone doesn't have all their facts straight.

The planet can't sustain continued population growth though. Relying on GMO for additional food? That's a potential time bomb if some of that stuff gets out into the wild. Plants are promiscuous things. You have GMO on the one hand and greedy seedsmen with their Terminator crops that set seed for food but not for planting. While the whole global climate change may be based on junk science, at least in part, there is at least a new focus on other energy sources. Electric cars kill me though. Where does the electricity come from? Coal plants? Hydro? Nuclear? You are trading one energy source into another that also has dubious growth potential.

There is a general longing in the wilderness community to go back to the old ways. There is no need to go all the way back. Times were hard in the Old Days, no matter how nostalgic you might think they are. Unless you're living truly off grid or spent some time doing it, you don't appreciate how hard it really is. It doesn't have to be. There just needs to be a modernization of the way we do things.

I think the problems we face today is that we still rely on the Old Ways far too much. Why do we still have road surfaces that fall apart? Why is our main source of power dangling from sticks planted along roadways? Why is the permitting process to use even existing dam locations as sources of hydro power so intricate? Why do people think planting acres and acres of highly reflective solar farms isn't going to be more damaging to environment than the current CO2 load (and why is the focus on CO2 when there are far more active 'greenhouse' gases out there).

Someone mentioned losing power for two week due to a storm. Everyone who proposes to survive more than two weeks should turn off their power from time to time and see what it's like. You may suddenly find you aren't as prepared as you thought. We weren't. But I also found more of a community coming together when it did happen. Neighbors watched out more for each other. Sure there were thieves out stealing unattended generators and unattended gas caches. There will always be that element out there. What boggles my mind more is that some people thought it ok to start a portable generator, then leave it unattended for hours at a time. And yeah, I had to travel 12 miles to get gas at one of the only gas stations in the area that had it's own generator to run the pumps (think about that a minute). You learn to plan ahead a little more about where you are going, what you are doing, how cold your house can actually be that a few extra layers won't solve, what you do when weather is too warm and your freezer starts to melt, what to do when it's too cold and your pipes might freeze if the generator (and it's backup if you have one) goes out for any reason.

Sorry for the rant. Preaching to the choir.

[sushidog]

I agree Rick. The problem is that people have short lifespans so we don't remember these events. When we read history we somehow think we are now different and our society will never collapse - like it's done many times. One of the problems we now face is that we've never had a global population this high. this means that when the collapse does happen (again) there will be many more who die this time. While it's true that we have technology now that we've never had, our reliance on this technology will precipitate this collapse. Mankind will of course survive, however not without great cost. Most individuals will not. I believe that most Americans and British will, because of our resources and entrepreneurial spirit. We tend to look at the world through our eyes. I am guilty of it myself. The rest of the world has a different mind set when it comes to problem resolution. What little freedom remaining abroad will be blamed. The ones who sponsor freedom and democracy will be blamed and executed and a new world order (think very old world order) will return. They will unite against a common enemy (us). Look at the class warfare that's being sponsored here while we have plenty. There will always be folks who insist on pitting us against them (making up classes of people and non-existant problems) just to promote their power changing strife. We just need to prepare for this inevitable change as best we can, if we can't stop it. That's why I'm here.

Having survived a minor sociatal collapse, I think my mind is more open to unthinkable events and practical ways to endure. An earthquake and tsunami like we just had in Japan is a good example of why we need to prepare. We need to ask ourselves what would we do if in a similar situation. A 30 ft tsunami in the Gulf of Mexico would kill many more here on the low lying, populous gulf coast than it did in Japan - and that's among people who know how to live off the land. Unlikely? Most certainly. Possible? I'll leave that up to you.

Chip

[Rick]

Again, Don. It's a matter of perspective. If the world is only 3000 miles square, as in the case of ancient Egypt, it has it's own inherent problems of invasion and disease (remember, vaccines and antibiotics weren't invented yet). The Black Plague and the Potato Famine and the diseases brought to the indigenous folks of this country by lack of immunity are just a very few examples of how mankind has been culled in the past. Does it matter, really, if it's by nuclear or disease or famine? It will happen in the future just as it's happened in the past and just as it's happening now. No difference at all other than the method perhaps. We'll never go back to old technologies because too many people have forgotten them and too many people make money on today's technology. Greed will always trump need.

I'm not dissing your opinion. If you choose to believe that then by all means do so. I'm just offering up that we've been there and done that time and time again.

[Don]

Again, Don. It's a matter of perspective. If the world is only 3000 miles square, as in the case of ancient Egypt, it has it's own inherent problems of invasion and disease (remember, vaccines and antibiotics weren't invented yet). The Black Plague and the Potato Famine and the diseases brought to the indigenous folks of this country by lack of immunity are just a very few examples of how mankind has been culled in the past. Does it matter, really, if it's by nuclear or disease or famine? It will happen in the future just as it's happened in the past and just as it's happening now. No difference at all other than the method perhaps. We'll never go back to old technologies because too many people have forgotten them and too many people make money on today's technology. Greed will always trump need.

I'm not dissing your opinion. If you choose to believe that then by all means do so. I'm just offering up that we've been there and done that time and time again.

I know your not dissing my opinion, you have always been respectful. I am not disputing that humanity has been there done that in history. My point is that the scale and reach of what may becoming will surpass what we have experienced in the past by virtue of our population,destructive technology and vulnerability to what happens else where as a result. In the past, with few exceptions humanity has suffered in isolated ways. My point is that global disasters are more likely now.

Don

[Rick]

That, sir, I do agree with. The scale or at least the potential for the scale is much larger. We are becoming a much larger more intricately entwined family. A problem such as we're seeing in Japan has ripple effects for everyone. That could be a very GOOD thing, however. It makes us more tolerant of each other and more willing to work toward equitable solutions rather than just hit each other with clubs.

[sushidog]

Gee, I hope the price of sushi doesn't go up because of the earthquake/tsunami. We're all doomed!

Chip

[Rick]

I picked up 25 pounds of white rice today if that means anything.

[sushidog]

It means you're not very strong. I could easily pick up 50 lbs. ;)

Seriously though, it's wise to buy and store now for many reasons. I always buy my rice in 50 lb bags, but that's just me.

Chip

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handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

http://audiobookkeeper.ruhttp://cottagenet.ruhttp://eyesvision.ruhttp://eyesvisions.comhttp://factoringfee.ruhttp://filmzones.ruhttp://gadwall.ruhttp://gaffertape.ruhttp://gageboard.ruhttp://gagrule.ruhttp://gallduct.ruhttp://galvanometric.ruhttp://gangforeman.ruhttp://gangwayplatform.ruhttp://garbagechute.ru
http://gardeningleave.ruhttp://gascautery.ruhttp://gashbucket.ruhttp://gasreturn.ruhttp://gatedsweep.ruhttp://gaugemodel.ruhttp://gaussianfilter.ruhttp://gearpitchdiameter.ruhttp://geartreating.ruhttp://generalizedanalysis.ruhttp://generalprovisions.ruhttp://geophysicalprobe.ruhttp://geriatricnurse.ruhttp://getintoaflap.ruhttp://getthebounce.ru
http://habeascorpus.ruhttp://habituate.ruhttp://hackedbolt.ruhttp://hackworker.ruhttp://hadronicannihilation.ruhttp://haemagglutinin.ruhttp://hailsquall.ruhttp://hairysphere.ruhttp://halforderfringe.ruhttp://halfsiblings.ruhttp://hallofresidence.ruhttp://haltstate.ruhttp://handcoding.ruhttp://handportedhead.ruhttp://handradar.ru
http://handsfreetelephone.ruhttp://hangonpart.ruhttp://haphazardwinding.ruhttp://hardalloyteeth.ruhttp://hardasiron.ruhttp://hardenedconcrete.ruhttp://harmonicinteraction.ruhttp://hartlaubgoose.ruhttp://hatchholddown.ruhttp://haveafinetime.ruhttp://hazardousatmosphere.ruhttp://headregulator.ruhttp://heartofgold.ruhttp://heatageingresistance.ruhttp://heatinggas.ru
http://heavydutymetalcutting.ruhttp://jacketedwall.ruhttp://japanesecedar.ruhttp://jibtypecrane.ruhttp://jobabandonment.ruhttp://jobstress.ruhttp://jogformation.ruhttp://jointcapsule.ruhttp://jointsealingmaterial.ruhttp://journallubricator.ruhttp://juicecatcher.ruhttp://junctionofchannels.ruhttp://justiciablehomicide.ruhttp://juxtapositiontwin.ruhttp://kaposidisease.ru
http://keepagoodoffing.ruhttp://keepsmthinhand.ruhttp://kentishglory.ruhttp://kerbweight.ruhttp://kerrrotation.ruhttp://keymanassurance.ruhttp://keyserum.ruhttp://kickplate.ruhttp://killthefattedcalf.ruhttp://kilowattsecond.ruhttp://kingweakfish.ruhttp://kinozones.ruhttp://kleinbottle.ruhttp://kneejoint.ruhttp://knifesethouse.ru
http://knockonatom.ruhttp://knowledgestate.ruhttp://kondoferromagnet.ruhttp://labeledgraph.ruhttp://laborracket.ruhttp://labourearnings.ruhttp://labourleasing.ruhttp://laburnumtree.ruhttp://lacingcourse.ruhttp://lacrimalpoint.ruhttp://lactogenicfactor.ruhttp://lacunarycoefficient.ruhttp://ladletreatediron.ruhttp://laggingload.ruhttp://laissezaller.ru
http://lambdatransition.ruhttp://laminatedmaterial.ruhttp://lammasshoot.ruhttp://lamphouse.ruhttp://lancecorporal.ruhttp://lancingdie.ruhttp://landingdoor.ruhttp://landmarksensor.ruhttp://landreform.ruhttp://landuseratio.ruhttp://languagelaboratory.ruhttp://largeheart.ruhttp://lasercalibration.ruhttp://laserlens.ruhttp://laserpulse.ru

[yellowcab]

http://laterevent.ruhttp://latrinesergeant.ruhttp://layabout.ruhttp://leadcoating.ruhttp://leadingfirm.ruhttp://learningcurve.ruhttp://leaveword.ruhttp://machinesensible.ruhttp://magneticequator.ruhttp://magnetotelluricfield.ruhttp://mailinghouse.ruhttp://majorconcern.ruhttp://mammasdarling.ruhttp://managerialstaff.ruhttp://manipulatinghand.ru
http://manualchoke.ruhttp://medinfobooks.ruhttp://mp3lists.ruhttp://nameresolution.ruhttp://naphtheneseries.ruhttp://narrowmouthed.ruhttp://nationalcensus.ruhttp://naturalfunctor.ruhttp://navelseed.ruhttp://neatplaster.ruhttp://necroticcaries.ruhttp://negativefibration.ruhttp://neighbouringrights.ruhttp://objectmodule.ruhttp://observationballoon.ru
http://obstructivepatent.ruhttp://oceanmining.ruhttp://octupolephonon.ruhttp://offlinesystem.ruhttp://offsetholder.ruhttp://olibanumresinoid.ruhttp://onesticket.ruhttp://packedspheres.ruhttp://pagingterminal.ruhttp://palatinebones.ruhttp://palmberry.ruhttp://papercoating.ruhttp://paraconvexgroup.ruhttp://parasolmonoplane.ruhttp://parkingbrake.ru
http://partfamily.ruhttp://partialmajorant.ruhttp://quadrupleworm.ruhttp://qualitybooster.ruhttp://quasimoney.ruhttp://quenchedspark.ruhttp://quodrecuperet.ruhttp://rabbetledge.ruhttp://radialchaser.ruhttp://radiationestimator.ruhttp://railwaybridge.ruhttp://randomcoloration.ruhttp://rapidgrowth.ruhttp://rattlesnakemaster.ruhttp://reachthroughregion.ru
http://readingmagnifier.ruhttp://rearchain.ruhttp://recessioncone.ruhttp://recordedassignment.ruhttp://rectifiersubstation.ruhttp://redemptionvalue.ruhttp://reducingflange.ruhttp://referenceantigen.ruhttp://regeneratedprotein.ruhttp://reinvestmentplan.ruhttp://safedrilling.ruhttp://sagprofile.ruhttp://salestypelease.ruhttp://samplinginterval.ruhttp://satellitehydrology.ru
http://scarcecommodity.ruhttp://scrapermat.ruhttp://screwingunit.ruhttp://seawaterpump.ruhttp://secondaryblock.ruhttp://secularclergy.ruhttp://seismicefficiency.ruhttp://selectivediffuser.ruhttp://semiasphalticflux.ruhttp://semifinishmachining.ruhttp://spicetrade.ruhttp://spysale.ruhttp://stungun.ruhttp://tacticaldiameter.ruhttp://tailstockcenter.ru
http://tamecurve.ruhttp://tapecorrection.ruhttp://tappingchuck.ruhttp://taskreasoning.ruhttp://technicalgrade.ruhttp://telangiectaticlipoma.ruhttp://telescopicdamper.ruhttp://temperateclimate.ruhttp://temperedmeasure.ruhttp://tenementbuilding.rutuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/index.php?topic=1.0)http://ultramaficrock.ruhttp://ultraviolettesting.ru