Improvements in the Economy

[Rick]

This is a good read on the current state of the economy.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/jobs_economy_recovery_2011/

[BENESSE]

Some people are still not gonna buy it.
Just watch...

[Rick]

Only because it's not what they WANT to hear.

[BENESSE]

Exactly.
Some people, it seems, would rather hear awful news to prove themselves right. (and rub it in) Something I could never understand.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Exactly.
Some people, it seems, would rather hear awful news to prove themselves right. (and rub it in) Something I could never understand.

Well while this may be true for MOST of the country, keep in mind that it is not true for ALL of the country. Actually I just checked the state unemployment site for my state (Ky.) and instead of improving, unemployed numbers are still RISING here.....10.1% in October, 10.2 in November.... Decembers (obviously) have not been released yet.

http://oet.ky.gov/

[BENESSE]

True enough Poco.
However, the general outlook has improved which is bound to have positive effects throughout. Not a reason to relax or change our MO (as if there ever should be), but at least something about which to feel a bit more optimistic.

"Though most economists still expect a painfully high unemployment rate of about 9% at the end of this year, some think that stat masks more important signs of strength.
Economists surveyed by CNNMoney are forecasting an average of 2.5 million jobs added to the U.S. economy this year, which would be the best one-year gain in hiring since the white-hot labor market of 1999."

[2dumb2kwit]

Well while this may be true for MOST of the country, keep in mind that it is not true for ALL of the country. Actually I just checked the state unemployment site for my state (Ky.) and instead of improving, unemployed numbers are still RISING here.....10.1% in October, 10.2 in November.... Decembers (obviously) have not been released yet.

http://oet.ky.gov/

All it is saying, is that we are starting to turn around. It will be a slow turn around/recovery, but at least we are not heading full speed down the toilet. (Like we were.)

The people (in general) are fed up, and showed it in November. That has shifted just enough control, to slow or stop most of the really bad ideas from being pushed forward. That gives just enough confidence for things to start moving again.(But slowly.) It will take events in november 2012, like we had in november 2010, to get things shifted into a higher gear, to get back to where we were.

This, of course, is just my opinion, and as such is based in 2dumb logic, but I'm sticking with it! LOL

[2dumb2kwit]

The bad part, for me, is that there is a whole lot of empty buildings sitting around. Even when things pick up, and stuff starts growing, there is a lot of space (cheap space) to be filled before new construction gets going again. This means it will be a long time before there is a high demand for the kind of work that I do. (Grading and excavating.)

(Big sigh...)

I really do need to look at my Soup 'r Dogs idea, a little more seriously. LOL

[BENESSE]

Well, "Detroit" is coming back in a significant way--not just the car industry but the city itself.
Most of the bailouts we all squawked about (including me) were repaid with interest. Again, not reason enough to break out the champagne, but reason enough to turn that frown upside down.

[BENESSE]

The bad part, for me, is that there is a whole lot of empty buildings sitting around. Even when things pick up, and stuff starts growing, there is a lot of space (cheap space) to be filled before new construction gets going again. This means it will be a long time before there is a high demand for the kind of work that I do. (Grading and excavating.)

(Big sigh...)

I really do need to look at my Soup 'r Dogs idea, a little more seriously. LOL

If you move to NYC you'll have a job for life of grading and excavating. Probably not enough reason for you to check your "toys" at the border.

[klickitat]

Like I posted in the other thread Rick, if you are right at the end of the year I will happily buy you a bottle of good whiskey and proclaim that you were right. I hope I have to buy that bottle too.

[Rick]

Keep in mind these numbers are averaged for the country as a whole. As you point out, there are areas where those numbers are still lagging behind. Likewise, there are areas where those numbers are better.

Everyone has to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to move to an area that is better than where they are at. I made that decision in 1990 for a lot of different reasons. Personal income, better opportunities for spouse and kids, better schools, etc. So for me, at that time, it was the right move.

However, there are other options to consider. Cross training or retraining into a field that IS hot in your area. Perhaps taking a job in a field that is good in a down economy. That might include repossessions, clean up and inspections of foreclosed homes, buying and cleaning out foreclosed storage units. Look around and ask yourself where folks are making money in your area today.

[BENESSE]

We too, moved to NYC 20+ years ago because of better job opportunities. To this day, this is still the best place for us in our respective careers. By moving here we've given up a lot of things we enjoyed and others just take for granted but we knew that without job security and opportunity for growth nothing else would be sustainable for long.
We never regretted the move.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I've been doing well all along but only because I have stayed one step ahead. Don't be fooled the NWO marches on while you sleep. This is far beyond your flouridated minds to crasp and the vast majority are far to enslaved to the system to have any hope. When will you get it? You will "survive" as slaves to the NWO. It is your freedom and your souls you are loosing not just your wealth.

We are in the end times!

[crashdive123]

Drinking again huh?

[BENESSE]

When will you get it? You will "survive" as slaves to the NWO.


I draw the line at being a slave to fashion, that's it.

[crashdive123]

I draw the line at being a slave to fashion, that's it.

Well....there are a pair of boots I seem to recall.

[rwc1969]

I don't believe "Detroit is coming back in a significant way", but I do hold optimism for the future of employment here. My buddy was just laid off again and they've been on a hiring freeze for years now.

I have seen more traffic on the roads and more job offerings recently though. Although, the job offerings are not ones that a person could survive on, let alone live. Hopefully that will change. Since we now will be ran, Michigan forthemostpart, by the ones who said they could fix everything we'll see how well they do.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Slot machines prey on the same weakness of the mind. Win a little, loose a little more, win some of it back and loose even more. There is word for it

SUCKERS!

[crashdive123]

I know it is sometimes difficult to accurately communicate "how" a message is being delivered in written format. Maybe it is not your intent, but it sure sounds as though you are suggesting that YOU are the only one here that will be prepared for whatever lays ahead. If that is what you are saying, not only is it arrogant as all get out, but woefully wrong. If that is not what you are saying, my apologies - but that's how it read.


I've been doing well all along but only because I have stayed one step ahead. Don't be fooled the NWO marches on while you sleep. This is far beyond your flouridated minds to crasp and the vast majority are far to enslaved to the system to have any hope. When will you get it? You will "survive" as slaves to the NWO. It is your freedom and your souls you are loosing not just your wealth.

We are in the end times!


Slot machines prey on the same weakness of the mind. Win a little, loose a little more, win some of it back and loose even more. There is word for it

SUCKERS!

[BENESSE]

Everything in life is a gamble, AS. The only difference between you and me is that we chose to gamble on different things.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I know it is sometimes difficult to accurately communicate "how" a message is being delivered in written format. Maybe it is not your intent, but it sure sounds as though you are suggesting that YOU are the only one here that will be prepared for whatever lays ahead. If that is what you are saying, not only is it arrogant as all get out, but woefully wrong. If that is not what you are saying, my apologies - but that's how it read.

Not quite. I am sure there are many others here that just have not spoken up. It is a waste of time. It is doubt in the current system that drives the popularity of survivalist forums. I'm not the only one that see's it.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Everything in life is a gamble, AS. The only difference between you and me is that we chose to gamble on different things.

And the number one rule to gambling is "Never gamble what you aren't willing to loose".

[BENESSE]

Couldn't agree more, AS!

[Alaskan Survivalist]

The bad part, for me, is that there is a whole lot of empty buildings sitting around. Even when things pick up, and stuff starts growing, there is a lot of space (cheap space) to be filled before new construction gets going again. This means it will be a long time before there is a high demand for the kind of work that I do. (Grading and excavating.)

(Big sigh...)

I really do need to look at my Soup 'r Dogs idea, a little more seriously. LOL

Don't believe your lieing eyes. The internet and the news media are the only source of truth in the universe. BELIEVE.

[BENESSE]

What do you recommend AS...specifically?

[Rick]

At least I posted a source for review. A reputable one at that. Perhaps you have some numbers I don't have or have not seen but I'd really like to know what you base your conclusion on. Who is this NWO and when do they take over. If the pay is good I might sign up.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

At least I posted a source for review. A reputable one at that. Perhaps you have some numbers I don't have or have not seen but I'd really like to know what you base your conclusion on. Who is this NWO and when do they take over. If the pay is good I might sign up.

I know you will.

[canid]

anybody who doesn't believe the sky is falling is obviously reading the wrong news. that's why i get all my current events from made for tv disaster movies.

[Rick]

Someone is always taking over the world, AS. It was the communists in the 50s, the beatles in the 60s, Nixon and his cronies in the 70s, Arab shieks in the 80s and the brat pack in the 90s. What we really need is a good 5 cent cigar.

[canid]

but we have an embargo with Cuba...

[Rick]

You just have to trade with Cuban cigar maker that defected. Nothing wrong with a defective cigar in my book.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

What do you recommend AS...specifically?

In a word "Self Reliance". You started me on rant that I deleted before posting but to answer your question specific to you. In your situation I would leave NYC immediately to start a new life elswhere and as hard as that may be it will never get easier. I know you are not going to do that so the second best would be to stock a kayak and escape by sea in the fog at night.

[BENESSE]

In a word "Self Reliance". You started me on rant that I deleted before posting but to answer your question specific to you. In your situation I would leave NYC immediately to start a new life elswhere and as hard as that may be it will never get easier. I know you are not going to do that so the second best would be to stock a kayak and escape by sea in the fog at night.

The only way we could swing that is if we were in a witness protection program. But stocking a kayak is definitely doable. I've been researching that for a while now.
p.s. Self reliance is my middle name--I believe in that whole-heartedly

[Rick]

We've had no less than 8 depressions and a multitude of recessions and we've never had anarchy resulting from them. And several of the depressions were not only worse than this crisis they were longer term. Each of them averaged about 6 years. What is it that you fear? I understand an economic collapse but what specifically do you think will occur?

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Someone is always taking over the world, AS. It was the communists in the 50s, the beatles in the 60s, Nixon and his cronies in the 70s, Arab shieks in the 80s and the brat pack in the 90s. What we really need is a good 5 cent cigar.

People are to stupid to pull off a global conspiracy. It is the ideology they serve that is the danger and progressively moves forward. That's why they call them progressives.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

We've had no less than 8 depressions and a multitude of recessions and we've never had anarchy resulting from them. And several of the depressions were not only worse than this crisis they were longer term. Each of them averaged about 6 years. What is it that you fear? I understand an economic collapse but what specifically do you think will occur?
Not trying to put out a fire with Gasoline,But..... Do you think Rome fell to a new Government? To them all was peachy and keen.... until it all ended. Many governments ,societies, and even whole civilizations have fallen in our history. Sometimes it was due to warfare, mismanagement of the government, disease, famine, plague etc... Throughout history there has always been something to cause societal upheaval/downfall. Similar to a volcano it builds and builds until it blows. What you posted above is a similar scenario kinda'.

People are to stupid to pull off a global conspiracy. It is the ideology they serve that is the danger and progressively moves forward. That's why they call them progressives.
Rick You have even Started a thread unknowingly along the same lines as this....
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14608
It does not have to be a plot or conspiracy for it to happen. What's that saying? "Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it" Sorry I paraphrased it instead of looking it up. But Who would think to look and see similarities to dead civilizations/cultures/societies and compare them to our present situation? Some people believe it IS already begun, whether we like it or not..... only time will truly tell the whole story. Still we prepare for many eventualities. Those who believe TEOTWAWKI is near, disagree in how it will manifest, but many believe it is Imminent. We talk of contingency plans for all types of scenarios, this is just another.... "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it." It could be a pandemic, societal collapse.... shoot there are just too many ways it could happen. Hopefully It won't, But it COULD. Especially the way things have been going the last several years.

[Winnie]

Our situation is a bit different, but I think what my Govt has done in the last few months, although painful will certainly help stop Britain's downward slide into further recession.
I happen to agree with Rick, If the previous financial, combative and political(for want of a better word) situations were so terminal, then how come we're still here? The world is still turning, the people are still complaining. Apart from getting older, what's changed?

[Pal334]

I can not buy the idea of a NWO. It is the stuff of fantasy , only slightly more credible than the possibility of a Zombie attack. My feeling is to maintain a "level keel". Balance what you do in preparation with the demands of you everyday life (and that varies by location of course). Maybe living a life of total preps makes one person have a nice fuzzy feeling , then so be it. Others will be some other percent "prepped". The economy is cyclic it will come back around , probably not to the "bubble" of the recent past, but will return to a healthy state. It does not help folks much right now that are hurting, but things will cycle through. Before you make an opinion on this subject make sure you read multiple sources, the link Rick posted is a good start.

[Rick]

Poco - Winnie has hit upon the very part I don't understand. You are correct, a lot of societies/governments have failed. It happens nearly every day. But they continue on. It may be a bit of a rough spot but they certainly don't revert to the middle ages as so many would suggest. The Soviet Union is but the latest in a solid example of total economic failure. They have emerged with a much stronger middle class and more democratic values that they ever experienced prior to the collapse.

At some point in time it's very likely our government will implode, too. However, the economic indicators are not currently there. Despite our public debt we are still in good financial shape and our level of debt is sustainable for the next decade.

Here's another piece of the pie I don't understand. I would never think of telling YCC how to tan an animal. I wouldn't tell KYRAT or Sourdough anything about weapons. I wouldn't try to tell you how to live on the streets. I have neither the training nor the experience in any of those endeavors. But EVERYONE is an expert on the economy. I would wager a guess that 50% or more on this forum don't know how to reconcile their bank register. I'll also guess that those same folks don't run their household on a budget and probably don't know how to build one. I base those numbers off the polls I did on the same subject when I was teaching. Yet, everyone knows macro economics well enough to predict the utter failure of our society. The problem is they don't know what they don't know and what they really fear is what they don't know. By the way, I only picked the names above because I value and respect their knowledge in those areas not because of any beliefs they may or may not have.

We are far more likely to be impacted by a natural event than the decline and fall of the American Empire.

As to the article I posted, it no more portends the end of society than raining blackbirds in Arkansas does.

If someone believes the end of society is imminent then that's what they believe. I can respect that. If they have fears of angry hordes of ne'er-do-wells then that's fine too. It's what they fear and I certainly can't argue the point. It's what they believe. All I've ever asked is what evidence is there that event X will occur? It helps me to understand why someone feels that way and helps everyone in the long run. I'm certainly not being facetious or argumentative when I ask for sources. I really do want to understand.

[crashdive123]

Admit it Rick - you just wanted to type ne'er-do-wells didn't you?

[Rick]

Do you know how hard it is for that term to come up in conversations? It's just a pure joy to be able to type it.

[BENESSE]

Do you know how hard it is for that term to come up in conversations? It's just a pure joy to be able to type it.

Not around here.
Someone is always either a ne'er-do-well, or just looks like one. And we all know that look.

[rwc1969]

Well Rick, maybe if our govt., and the large corporations and special interest groups that dictate it would manage their books and have as good an understanding of proper legal and ethical accounting practices as you we'd all be doing much better.

Untill then we'll just keep scrounging and eating dog food to survive.

[Rick]

I'm going to assume that wasn't a cheap shot. In any case, There are global sized corporations that manage their books just fine. A few have not and everyone wants to focus on them but what about the thousands that do a good job?

How about Sears that's holding open all of their veteran employees' jobs until they return? AND paying the difference in their salary?

Here's a link to the most ethical companies in the world. It's make pretty good reading. You see, the more ethical a company is the better it performs financially and that's a fact.

http://ethisphere.com/wme2010/

Again, my source is posted.

[BENESSE]

Thanks Rick.
I knew about a few of them but most were a surprise. It's gratifying to know how many are American.

[2dumb2kwit]

I'm certainly not being facetious or argumentative

So, that's how you spell facetious.
Thanks Rick!

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Poco - Winnie has hit upon the very part I don't understand.........

But EVERYONE is an expert on the economy. I would wager a guess that 50% or more on this forum don't know how to reconcile their bank register. I'll also guess that those same folks don't run their household on a budget and probably don't know how to build one. I base those numbers off the polls I did on the same subject when I was teaching. Yet, everyone knows macro economics well enough to predict the utter failure of our society. The problem is they don't know what they don't know and what they really fear is what they don't know. By the way, I only picked the names above because I value and respect their knowledge in those areas not because of any beliefs they may or may not have.

We are far more likely to be impacted by a natural event than the decline and fall of the American Empire.

As to the article I posted, it no more portends the end of society than raining blackbirds in Arkansas does.

If someone believes the end of society is imminent then that's what they believe. I can respect that. ......... It helps me to understand why someone feels that way and helps everyone in the long run. I'm certainly not being facetious or argumentative when I ask for sources. I really do want to understand.

Many of the things some of you talk about, I DON'T understand(Electronics, financial stuff etc.). I am NOT an "Expert" in anything. LOL Not even in living my own life. I won't even try to make that claim of being an "Expert" even if I know more about something than you.(Who could know more than the Minister of Science?)

What I meant about the thread you posted was that many SEE it as an indicator of the dreaded TEOTWAWKI. IF the right(Wrong) people were ever to get into a position of authority to ABUSE these laws or their loopholes. It would not be hard to imagine a police state ensuing IF "They" were ever to get into these positions of Authority. Whoever "They" are. I think we all pretty much agree that it is at the very least an "erosion" of our life expectations here in the USA.

True too that there have been "Doomsayers" throughout the history of Mankind. In every age of history there has been this or that group/cult that predicted TEOTWAWKI was nigh. Some were wrong, some were right in the fact that THEIR lifestyle was forever dramatically changed.

It does not help that Movies such as: The Postman with Kevin Costner, Mad Max series with Mel Gibson, or newer movies such as The Book of Eli, or The Road, Further reinforce these ideas in peoples heads that this is our "future". In other words that society will erode to that degree. Even young kids today believe that they won't live in the same world of today when they are grown. That SOMETHING is going to happen.

Some of this is in fact baseless. There are no indicators to point to. However, IF Yellowstone or another "Super Volcano" were to blow(which we have no way of predicting) It COULD happen. Life as we know it could very easily end starting tomorrow.

JMO but sayings like "Live each day as if it were your last" Or the American Indian saying "Today is a good Day to Die" are NOT negative sayings. But rather a saying that tells us to live the best you can every day. Even to the point of your preps. Prep for any eventuality and you can't be disappointed, only pleasantly surprised with your efforts.... even if you never use any of them.

[SARKY]

Sorry but I don't believe any of the crap the genius talking heads spew, why? well because they have a credability gap. In the 70's we were told that an iceage was coming, in the 90's it was global warming. Show an egghead (scientific or economic) that has gotten it right 75%+ of the time and I give them a second look. Other wise i'll believe what I can feel and see with MY senses. Besides, we are now 14 Trillion dollars in debt so how soon before that alone destroys or dollars value and destroys our economy?

[Rick]

Why on earth would you resort to name calling because some folks believe differently than you? Scientists and Economists both have important rolls to play. Granted they aren't all right 100% of the time but maybe that's because they are human like the rest of us. However, they seem to have done a pretty decent job over the last 200 years.

If you are going to live your life based on your own hunches then you are doing little more than jousting at windmills. But it is a fair sport.

Any time, 2D. Speaking of facetious, you can look up this word.

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

[SARKY]

You want to know why???? I'll tell you. First most of it is junk science or junk math! "figures lie and liars figure" second at least with global warming, how many of these fear mongers got rich peddling their fraud? (can you sat Algore) . As to economic fear mongering and fraud just look to the Federal Reserve and the enlightened(sic) politicians that created it. Oh and their reasoning for its creation.
No! they were doing a pretty good job the first hundred years or so. This last hundred has seen at least 2 depressions (1919 and 1929)
And they are not just my hunches, do you observe the world around you? Have you noticed how people have just gotten quiet about the economy? That is called fear and uncertainty. Have you compared the similarities of our economy and that of Germany of the early 30's. "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes"
I am a pragmatic realist. If it all turns around....GREAT! BUT we still have a 14 TRILLION dollar debt and it is getting larger. Don't you find that disturbing? The interest alone on our debt is disturbing and what happens when just the interest exceeds GDP?

[Rick]

Well, I can't address your sayings. But there have been recessions and depressions dating back to 1836. You might be surprised to know that the cotton market collapsed, banks stopped paying in gold and silver, over 600 banks collapsed and an overall lack of confidence in paper money. Sound familiar? That was 1836.

There has always been and will always be serious skepticism in the economy. In some ways that's a really good thing. At least a healthy thing. But it's not something to fear. Yes, we have a huge debt and as I've stated before, if nothing catastrophic occurs (no major natural disasters for example) then the US will be able to service the debt for the next 10-20 years. After that we will have to borrow to pay the interest. That's a pretty close definition of a Ponzi scheme but the U.S. can still pull that off for another 10 years +/-. That's if nothing goes unchanged. I'm genuinely hopeful the President and Congress begin reducing expenditures but I'm also a realist and see much higher taxes as the fix rather than reducing spending. That doesn't mean the end of the world. It just means a much higher tax burden.

And even if the country went bankrupt we wouldn't go back to the stone age. We'd have to restructure our debt and try to move on.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

And even if the country went bankrupt we wouldn't go back to the stone age. We'd have to restructure our debt and try to move on.

or....

submit ourselves as slaves to a totalitarian regeme.

[Rick]

Sources, please. Which totalitarian regime would that be? Cuba?

[BENESSE]

Rick, just because no sources were provided doesn't mean every statement wasn't gut-checked for accuracy.:sneaky2:

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Sources, please. Which totalitarian regime would that be? Cuba?

History is my source. Ever hear of Germany History. I walk though life with my eyes open and anyone that does sees it clearly. Remember when gas was 19 cents a gallon, candy bars a nickel, rent 80 dollars a month a new car 2000 dollars. I have seen it gradually fall and have seen sudden drops as well. Its is falling now with no end in sight. The rate of economic decline may change but this economy was built on cheap oil and those days are over. Reference Peak oil and you will see this decline was forcasted back in the 50's. If you understand it you will realize it does not mean we are running out of oil it means we are running out of cheap oil.

[2dumb2kwit]

it does not mean we are running out of oil it means we are running out of cheap oil.

So the evil regime is the environmentalist!!!

I knew it....those ba$tards!:boxer:

[randyt]

sometimes the right events in the right order can lead to evil.


http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/randytlee/2187.jpg

[Rick]

I'm convinced it isn't that folks don't see. It's that folks don't want to see. So I'll leave it alone.

Benesse, there is a huge difference between someone saying, "This is how I see it" and saying, "This is how it is". If you tell me, "This is how it is" then I'll request sources every time if I think you're wrong. I expect the same in return. However, if you tell me, "This is how I see it" then I can respect that because it's opinion only.

In an ideal conversation I would say This is how it is and here are my sources. You can then say I have to agree or that's wrong and take a look at this. That gives me the opportunity to review opposing data, in which case I can say I agree or that's wrong. Either way, the process of discourse educates both. They've been sayin' for two years and it hasn't happened yet. One of these days though.....

In this case I challenge folks to read...yes I know...information and all they do is give me mush back. No one learns from that. In fact, it's counter productive. If folks want to believe the sky is falling, so be it.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Rick I asked you to access your own memory. What better source could there be? The internet? I ask people think for themselves and not be spoon fed all thier thoughts.

[BENESSE]

Benesse, there is a huge difference between someone saying, "This is how I see it" and saying, "This is how it is". If you tell me, "This is how it is" then I'll request sources every time if I think you're wrong. I expect the same in return. However, if you tell me, "This is how I see it" then I can respect that because it's opinion only.

I agree...and I was joking. (Hence the smilie.)

[Rick]

AS - I understand history but you are discounting all other sources and that's a big mistake. In order to have an objective view you have to read a cross section of reports from different sources. You need to be able to digest and understand the various governmental reports as well as independent views on those same reports. If you open your eyes and view something incorrectly it's still wrong no matter how many times you look.

[Rick]

It was a frownie but okay.

[Alaskan Survivalist]

It's not that I discount it, it's that it is all spun to an agenda these days and I have to sift much of it out. Spin is a bold faced lie in my book meant to decieve. If I were to venture a quess to your perspective as you did to me I would say you are to accepting of what you want to hear and can't see the forest for the trees. But what if we are both right, we are both clueless? What if everybody is including those in control? That seems most likely to me.

[2dumb2kwit]

Rick, I know I don't explain my thoughts very well, so here is a little read, that may help explain what I'm getting at.


What is true is that the administration’s confidence-crushing economic policies are, according to National Federation of Independent Business Chief Economist Bill Dunkelberg, “scaring us to death”. What’s happened here is that a White House sorely lacking in private-sector experience has, for almost two years now, been broadcasting a clear message: “Business: beware.”


America’s $14 trillion economy got the message. Stuck in neutral, the economy seems incapable of reducing its near 10% unemployment rate. Capital remains stranded: $2 trillion looking for an environment that encourages investment, job growth, risk-taking.

http://biggovernment.com/proskam/2010/07/20/democrat-policies-are-undermining-business-confidence/

The link is where I found the story, but it is mostly reporting on interviews, and has links to more info.

[Rick]

While there might be some truth to that it seems a bit more political than financial. If a corporation puts the breaks on and waits for some clear signal from Washington then they would never get anything done. I would suggest that what business is struggling with at the moment is a lack of available money for long term capital projects and deferred customer demand for short term sales.

What was supposed to go to private banking as a stimulus to allow them to ease lending cycles turned out to be cash in their pocket because they did nothing with it except bolster their cash reserves. Like that was hard to see standing in the road.

Financial planning for the following year begins in late fourth quarter. Budgets are made for salaries, bonuses, expenses all allocated during that planning phase as are short and long term projects. What generally happens is you are told what your budget is for the upcoming year and you have to allocate within those budgets. You may or may not have input on the total money but if a capital project is slated to be on the books it's almost always included in your funding. There are no political considerations made for the operating budget.

If some new law or regulation is passed that you have to meet and it involves significant capital or expense dollars then a budget overlay is generally given to accommodate the regulatory requirement. Corporations always have a slush fund sacked away to cover unforeseen expenses. Unknown unknowns as it were. I never sat in on a budget planning meeting where the concerns of Washington were discussed.

[crashdive123]

I think that much of the hesitation (for lack of a better word) has been due to so much uncertainty. Some of that uncertainty stems from, IMO business did not know until recently what their tax burden was going to be. With that now settled for the next year coupled with the capital expenditure write off acceleration - they can move forward. The health care issue has also given many businesses pause. Now that so many companies have applied for and received waivers, they can move forward. I believe that a bigger impact on business than governmental regulation (don't get me wrong, it can be bad) is uncertainty. Once all of the rules, regulations, laws, etc. are firm, a business can develop a plan and move forward. There has been a lot of uncertainty lately.

[rwc1969]

I wonder if we would be in this situation if we had adopted Jefferson's agrarian ideologies instead of embracing industry.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1283884/thomas_jefferson_and_agricultural_america.html

[Alaskan Survivalist]

Consider this. Political corruption has been since the begining as to was greed, shady bankers, big business and the rest but when did the dominoes begin to fall? It was when oil hit 4 dollars a gallon. What has bought us a reprieve is that demand fell to lower prices but should the economy revive itself 4 dollar a gallon fuel is waiting as soon as demand returns. The worlds human population was more or less stable until the industrial revolution and then population exploded to add 5 billion people since the discovery of oil. That is 5 billion people that the world cannot support without oil. Oil has given us capability to depleat many of the other worlds resources. An economy based on infinate growth will not last in a finite world and there is no getting around this simple truth. All else is just temporary fluxuations on the way to total collapse. We have only used half of the worlds oil supply, the easy half, the other half will be much harder to get to and demand is exceeding supply especially with emerging third world economies.

Peak oil is one of the problems we face that cannot be denied and has a big effect on the economy and national policies for every country in the world. Water and soil are two other things that are being depleted at unsustainable levels. Now tell me how the economy is going to grow at any kind of sustainable level under these conditions.

To research this further there are 5 years worth of blogs and links to news articles at this site

http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/

[Rick]

Cudos to both of you. Now folks can read, investigate, and decide for themselves.

[Trabitha]

Why on earth would you resort to name calling because some folks believe differently than you? Scientists and Economists both have important rolls to play. Granted they aren't all right 100% of the time but maybe that's because they are human like the rest of us. However, they seem to have done a pretty decent job over the last 200 years.

If you are going to live your life based on your own hunches then you are doing little more than jousting at windmills. But it is a fair sport.

Any time, 2D. Speaking of facetious, you can look up this word.

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis


Agreed...but I think there are too many people now days that have developed what I call "trick me once syndrome." (like that name? I worked hard on it...I'm very proud! LOL!)
Far too often we hear from both sides of the isle about how wrong the other side is, and we've been let down more and more by our leaders, economists, and scientists. I suppose it makes people weary of trusting them as a group anymore. I know I'M more cautious with new studies or findings now...
Just putting that out there.

[2dumb2kwit]

Agreed...but I think there are too many people now days that have developed what I call "trick me once syndrome." (like that name? I worked hard on it...I'm very proud! LOL!)
Far too often we hear from both sides of the isle about how wrong the other side is, and we've been let down more and more by our leaders, economists, and scientists. I suppose it makes people weary of trusting them as a group anymore. I know I'M more cautious with new studies or findings now...
Just putting that out there.

Ain't that the truth!
I use to say, if you want to know the truth, just do your homework. Now, I realize it isn't nearly that simple. You can find so called "facts" to support just about any argument you want to make.

Not only do you need to find articles/studies, etc., but then you have to research who is behind that info, and figure out what ther agenda is. Then there is the whole...is it good science or bad science. How many times have we heard that a study was done using flawed input.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Ain't that the truth!
I use to say, if you want to know the truth, just do your homework. Now, I realize it isn't nearly that simple. You can find so called "facts" to support just about any argument you want to make.

Not only do you need to find articles/studies, etc., but then you have to research who is behind that info, and figure out what ther agenda is. Then there is the whole...is it good science or bad science. How many times have we heard that a study was done using flawed input.

This is one very good reason that I am Leary of putting up "Sources" to support or debunk any info discussed. Even some of the "Trusted" sources have been misled. Just take for example Crash's recent thread about Immunizations.....
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14624
This is a study/organization that people trusted for years.There is so much information countered with Misinformation, sprinkled with hearsay, that it is almost impossible to find the truth. It is almost to the point that the saying "Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see" is in fact more true than not. All the news agencies seem to have their own "Slant" on any given story, and some stories that you would think would be reported aren't.

Yes "The truth is Out There" but it seems to be like looking for the proverbial "Needle in a haystack". Most Issues you can find support for side "A", countered with equal amount of support for Side "B". Politics,health issues,economists... pick a topic and there is just so much contradictory statements/positions that it is almost impossible to believe any side. Almost as if you have to depend on "Gut Instincts" more than info that is available.

[BENESSE]

Seems to me, too much easily accessible info from too many sources has ultimately stunted people's common sense.
Somehow our grandparents and great grandparents managed to survive, thrive, raise kids and in many cases live to a productive old age without all the things we now use as a crutch to justify why we do and think anything we want to anyway.

Information is good, up to a point. When we use it in conjunction with experience and common sense, it becomes knowledge and, as the saying goes, knowledge is power.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Seems to me, too much easily accessible info from too many sources has ultimately stunted people's common sense.
Somehow our grandparents and great grandparents managed to survive, thrive, raise kids and in many cases live to a productive old age without all the things we now use as a crutch to justify why we do and think anything we want to anyway.

Information is good, up to a point. When we use it in conjunction with experience and common sense, it becomes knowledge and, as the saying goes, knowledge is power.

Very true B. It seems that at one point in our history wars were started and actually over before some people even heard about them. Rare, but it was isolated people that just lived their lives as best they could.... any news had little to do with what actually affected them usually in day to day living. Today however because of our close proximity to others, news travels much faster and affects more people.

[rwc1969]

POW! Bullseye!


Seems to me, too much easily accessible info from too many sources has ultimately stunted people's common sense.
Somehow our grandparents and great grandparents managed to survive, thrive, raise kids and in many cases live to a productive old age without all the things we now use as a crutch to justify why we do and think anything we want to anyway.

Information is good, up to a point. When we use it in conjunction with experience and common sense, it becomes knowledge and, as the saying goes, knowledge is power.


The information is put out there for a reason, to make people indecisive and reliant on a higher authority to make their decisions for them. Information overload syndrome! I wonder if there's a study for that? LOL!

Our forefathers/ mothers decided for themselves and the govt. went along for the ride, that has slowly changed with each generation and now the roles are reversed.

People have grown so used to relying on information that they no longer can see the wool in front of their eyes. Common sense says the wool is there, but there's no study to prove it.

[crashdive123]

POW! Bullseye!




The information is put out there for a reason, to make people indecisive and reliant on a higher authority to make their decisions for them. Information overload syndrome! I wonder if there's a study for that? LOL!

Our forefathers/ mothers decided for themselves and the govt. went along for the ride, that has slowly changed with each generation and now the roles are reversed.

People have grown so used to relying on information that they no longer can see the wool in front of their eyes. Common sense says the wool is there, but there's no study to prove it.

I don't see it that way. While I agree that there is a whole class of people out there that have become accustomed to relying on others to take care of them, and in so doing will not "fend" for themselves - I disagree that the cause is because there is too much information available. I do agree with you that because of the volumes of "misinformation" out there it makes it difficult for some to come to the "truth" regarding an issue. It takes work to sift through the BS, and unfortunately some do not want to get their boots dirty.

[Rick]

How can you ever have too much information? Those that relied on there own information very often died as a result of it. How can you possibly think that if you have no information that's better? What if the wool you see is wrong? If you have too much information at least you can glean through it and come to some decision based on your own personal beliefs and criteria. But at least you are offered options that you otherwise wouldn't have even known about.

In 1947 my grandmother was told she had cancer. She was told she was going to die. She decided to die at home. Based on your model. We should do the same today. Even though there are many alternatives available. Some of which include life.

You are a member of this forum because you are trying to acquire information. Your whole effort with YCC in brain tanning has been expressly about too much information and you have worked through it to find the model that fits you best. You truly lost me with that post.

[Trabitha]

How can you ever have too much information? Those that relied on there own information very often died as a result of it. How can you possibly think that if you have no information that's better? What if the wool you see is wrong? If you have too much information at least you can glean through it and come to some decision based on your own personal beliefs and criteria. But at least you are offered options that you otherwise wouldn't have even known about.

In 1947 my grandmother was told she had cancer. She was told she was going to die. She decided to die at home. Based on your model. We should do the same today. Even though there are many alternatives available. Some of which include life.

You are a member of this forum because you are trying to acquire information. Your whole effort with YCC in brain tanning has been expressly about too much information and you have worked through it to find the model that fits you best. You truly lost me with that post.

Agreed. I think when we start complaining about the amount of information we have access to...we run the risk of THAT being regulated. Then we have to worry about who will be doing the regulating.
While it sucks...and it is so much more difficult to get the PROPER information now days...we simply must adjust. It is the way of the world now. I think we owe it to ourselves to do the footwork...or live in the dark. Guess we can make up our own minds on that one. ;) :crash:

[Rick]

It's one of the reasons I harp so much on credible sources. Any moron with a knack for web building (I think I just insulted myself) can post whatever they want. So the very first thing to answer is whether the site is credible.

[Justin Case]

it amazes me that people still watch news media that has been caught in so many lies,,, same with certain political BS artists,, proven liars,, over and over ??? its mind boggling ,,,,,, anyway,, this is getting too close to political discussion,, so I am going to Beck out of this now ........

[crashdive123]

Careful---your bed is getting wet.

[Rick]

There are a lot of unethical folks out there. I'm not sure what has spurned it but a lot of folks don't mind taking a short cut rather than taking the time to verify data, resources, sources or just admit the truth. And the crazy part is the truth is a lot like cream. It always rises to the surface in time.

[rwc1969]

I never said we shouldn't use information and I never said information is the reason folks don't fend for themselves as far as working and supporting themselves.

My point is that most people don't have the ability to sift thru the information and find the truth. Those in power know this and are using it to keep the average joe down.

It has nothing to do with welfare or sitting and dying of cancer, both those statemets were fabricated of your own minds, not my statements.

It may be hard to believe, but many folks don't have internet access and still rely on the national media for their information. Also, if you think the internet is some clean source of good info you are wrong.

As far as welfare and such goes why would someone, an individual who is likely uneducated and poor who lacks resources, want to work to take care of themselves when they clearly see the government and large corporations who have endless resources and knowledge asking for help and acting as though they can't support themselves? Role models, where are they in this day and age?

This thread has taken a serious turn in a direction I do not want to continue down, so I'm out. Peace! I'm not that bored, lol.

[crashdive123]

I'm assuming the welfare comment was directed toward my post. If not - sorry. I never mentioned, nor was I referring to welfare. I was referring to a large segment of the population that refuses to take personal responsibility for their own lives, but rather wait to be told what, how and when to do something. It has nothing to do with economic status.

[2dumb2kwit]

it amazes me that people still watch news media that has been caught in so many lies,,, same with certain political BS artists,, proven liars,, over and over ??? its mind boggling ,,,,,, anyway,, this is getting too close to political discussion,, so I am going to Beck out of this now ........

What is mind boggling, is that they put so many people in control, in 2006 and 2008!

[Alaskan Survivalist]

I much prefer to have a persons original thought. Posting links lessons the conversation and interaction. Besides a person can find a link to support any position they choose to take. There is a difference between what you know and what you believe or read some where. "Boots in the field, Baby, Boots in the field". You see people pressenting info all the time as if they have had the actual experience of being there or saw it with thier own eyes. I believe nothing, never have. It's just something I heard somewhere until I have some actual evidence of it in my own life.

[canid]

Besides a person can find a link to support any position they choose to take.

I agree with this statement ;)

[SARKY]

Sources, please. Which totalitarian regime would that be? Cuba?

Gee Rick, which totalitarian regime owns a lot of our debt???? Can you say Communist China? I knew you could!

[SARKY]

Well, I can't address your sayings. But there have been recessions and depressions dating back to 1836. You might be surprised to know that the cotton market collapsed, banks stopped paying in gold and silver, over 600 banks collapsed and an overall lack of confidence in paper money. Sound familiar? That was 1836.

There has always been and will always be serious skepticism in the economy. In some ways that's a really good thing. At least a healthy thing. But it's not something to fear. Yes, we have a huge debt and as I've stated before, if nothing catastrophic occurs (no major natural disasters for example) then the US will be able to service the debt for the next 10-20 years. After that we will have to borrow to pay the interest. That's a pretty close definition of a Ponzi scheme but the U.S. can still pull that off for another 10 years +/-. That's if nothing goes unchanged. I'm genuinely hopeful the President and Congress begin reducing expenditures but I'm also a realist and see much higher taxes as the fix rather than reducing spending. That doesn't mean the end of the world. It just means a much higher tax burden.

And even if the country went bankrupt we wouldn't go back to the stone age. We'd have to restructure our debt and try to move on.

There have always been ups and downs in the economy, I won't deny that. It is how the federal govt. has reacted and/or taken advantage of those downs that disturbs me. Going off the gold/silver standard was the big warning message for me. Remember, this all started(or so we were told) with the housing bubble. Well if the banks were hurting because of the bad loans, why didn't the govt. just buy up the loans instead of giving the money to the loaning institutions? Then the people could have kept their homes and made their payments to the fed. Sorry but it smells of fraud and a land grab.

Rick, i am dead serious when I ask this next question of you. Are you a progressive/liberal? I ask this because I have to live within MY budget. Why shouldn't the govt? And why is the answer always thieving more money out of the taxpayers pocket. That money isn't the governments, they don't have a RIGHT to it and they misuse it a good majority of the time. We have nothing to fear???? My question to you is what do you think our debt holders will want from us if we claim default on our debt? land, natural resources, control of our military? your guess is as good as mine.

[SARKY]

Seems to me, too much easily accessible info from too many sources has ultimately stunted people's common sense.
Somehow our grandparents and great grandparents managed to survive, thrive, raise kids and in many cases live to a productive old age without all the things we now use as a crutch to justify why we do and think anything we want to anyway.

Information is good, up to a point. When we use it in conjunction with experience and common sense, it becomes knowledge and, as the saying goes, knowledge is power.

The problem is the fourth estate isn't doing it's job, it has it self become biased and so the internet has taken up the mantel. The unfortunate thing about that is every schmuck and his brother can put up a blog or just blog or post on facebook or anywhere else and it is taken as fact. The other thing is unless you have ALL the facts you can never discern what the Truth is.

[SARKY]

[QUOTE=Rick;269633]How can you ever have too much information? Those that relied on there own information very often died as a result of it. How can you possibly think that if you have no information that's better? What if the wool you see is wrong? If you have too much information at least you can glean through it and come to some decision based on your own personal beliefs and criteria. But at least you are offered options that you otherwise wouldn't have even known about.

I don't believe we can have too much credible information, but there is sooo much crap out ther it make it difficult to discern valid information from the drivel that is laced with truths and half truths.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

Обол (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/4857)129.7 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/55)разд (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/87)PERF (http://eyesvisions.com/eyesight/12)Thom (http://factoringfee.ru)Alle (http://filmzones.ru)Hear (http://gadwall.ru)Harl (http://gaffertape.ru)Поло (http://gageboard.ru)Deux (http://gagrule.ru)Came (http://gallduct.ru)Tesc (http://galvanometric.ru)0076 (http://gangforeman.ru)�зык (http://gangwayplatform.ru)Лени (http://garbagechute.ru)
Olym (http://gardeningleave.ru)Ther (http://gascautery.ru)�ере (http://gashbucket.ru)Bone (http://gasreturn.ru)Cycl (http://gatedsweep.ru)журн (http://gaugemodel.ru)�ча� (http://gaussianfilter.ru)Коже (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)�рда (http://geartreating.ru)8971 (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)Ва�у (http://generalprovisions.ru)от�т (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)�ерт (http://geriatricnurse.ru)�ерт (http://getintoaflap.ru)Jewe (http://getthebounce.ru)
Гриц (http://habeascorpus.ru)Брод (http://habituate.ru)Trih (http://hackedbolt.ru)Sidn (http://hackworker.ru)Зайц (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)1912 (http://haemagglutinin.ru)Worl (http://hailsquall.ru)Aqua (http://hairysphere.ru)Robe (http://halforderfringe.ru)Хлев (http://halfsiblings.ru)Коле (http://hallofresidence.ru)Леме (http://haltstate.ru)Кора (http://handcoding.ru)Отеч (http://handportedhead.ru)Ð*уть (http://handradar.ru)
Форм (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)Bino (http://hangonpart.ru)Favr (http://haphazardwinding.ru)Will (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://hardasiron.ru)Ð’Ð’Ð*о (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)Hans (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)каче (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)окош (http://hatchholddown.ru)York (http://haveafinetime.ru)иÑ�по (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)Evge (http://headregulator.ru)заве (http://heartofgold.ru)Fran (http://heatageingresistance.ru)Иллю (http://heatinggas.ru)
Hele (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)Гриб (http://jacketedwall.ru)John (http://japanesecedar.ru)Воро (http://jibtypecrane.ru)архе (http://jobabandonment.ru)Скор (http://jobstress.ru)Ð*Ñ�за (http://jogformation.ru)Лени (http://jointcapsule.ru)Mass (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)Nint (http://journallubricator.ru)Eleg (http://juicecatcher.ru)раÑ�Ñ� (http://junctionofchannels.ru)коми (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)Timo (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)Иллю (http://kaposidisease.ru)
Zouk (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)1812 (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)обор (http://kentishglory.ru)Wind (http://kerbweight.ru)Шеин (http://kerrrotation.ru)Sett (http://keymanassurance.ru)Сред (http://keyserum.ru)Arts (http://kickplate.ru)miko (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)Chan (http://kilowattsecond.ru)Robi (http://kingweakfish.ru)ОСК� (http://kinozones.ru/film/4857)авто (http://kleinbottle.ru)Ст�б (http://kneejoint.ru)Camb (http://knifesethouse.ru)
Hiro (http://knockonatom.ru)авто (http://knowledgestate.ru)чи�т (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)Alex (http://labeledgraph.ru)3000 (http://laborracket.ru)gran (http://labourearnings.ru)Miyo (http://labourleasing.ru)Henr (http://laburnumtree.ru)Kare (http://lacingcourse.ru)Вита (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)прир (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)Шир� (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)Hugh (http://ladletreatediron.ru)Иллю (http://laggingload.ru)Henr (http://laissezaller.ru)
возм (http://lambdatransition.ru)Talk (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)Wind (http://lammasshoot.ru)Skul (http://lamphouse.ru)Ян�е (http://lancecorporal.ru)Anja (http://lancingdie.ru)Irnu (http://landingdoor.ru)Copa (http://landmarksensor.ru)�леш (http://landreform.ru)Maki (http://landuseratio.ru)Bria (http://languagelaboratory.ru)�ено (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1160936)не�� (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/590072)Anti (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/561)�веч (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590313)

[yellowcab]

беже (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031098)Kron (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451707)Bosc (http://layabout.ru/shop/452226)Забр (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/174961)Бари (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105589)золо (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/462645)�зык (http://leaveword.ru/shop/462997)ин�т (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/177076)Wind (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/463143)ESAC (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/194920)Feat (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/266887)Кова (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/270007)неде (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/265754)Мега (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159960)STAR (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613739)
поме (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/598222)пато (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1499)Ambi (http://mp3lists.ru/item/4857)Deli (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/574759)Moxi (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/104931)Федо (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461004)Сайк (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/486880)анте (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/177368)прил (http://navelseed.ru/shop/101053)бру� (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/454849)Буки (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/175090)Школ (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/185909)Wind (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/506662)Musi (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108766)Hyun (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/5178)
DeLo (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98525)arol (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570413)Choi (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/572066)Batt (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148196)Saga (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/200978)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/148247)rbar (http://onesticket.ru/shop/578723)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/580600)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/683056)Герм (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/681917)Тихо (http://palmberry.ru/shop/379074)wwwc (http://papercoating.ru/shop/582194)МаÑ�Ñ‚ (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/688013)ГлÑ�Ñ� (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1167340)пред (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1167384)
Забо (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1166403)Fede (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1169202)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1539159)Henr (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/474633)Срез (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/594181)ЯроÑ� (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/596107)Judi (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1070473)Слин (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1072586)Тер- (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/274966)Малы (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/508470)Curr (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/515740)Vers (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/512290)кото (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/884341)Mich (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1078085)Маке (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/317858)
Worl (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513089)Кипр (http://rearchain.ru/shop/641179)That (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/516046)кунг (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/879936)Дубо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1053615)пицц (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1061957)школ (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1678535)Гори (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693089)Пшен (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1758641)Verv (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/122179)зани (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1814001)Wind (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1053963)Кула (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1066405)Want (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1433529)Бала (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1462307)
Dign (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1488199)Ки�е (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1462242)изда (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1493651)Симо (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1315076)Божь (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/273370)Outl (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1481548)возр (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/305115)прир (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/399231)Шеве (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/400199)Тамб (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/463071)Anti (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/561)Anti (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/561)Anti (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/561)Comi (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/482489)TANK (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/489868)
inti (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/497903)Иллю (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/482822)парт (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/486568)Те�л (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/498661)чита (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1821199)Круп (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1878461)Гонч (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/652570)Соде (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/338564)Морд (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/400164)умен (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/979689)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Игна (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/980075)Лыко (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/482899)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)инфо (http://cottagenet.ru)инфо (http://eyesvision.ru)инфо (http://eyesvisions.com)инфо (http://factoringfee.ru)инфо (http://filmzones.ru)инфо (http://gadwall.ru)инфо (http://gaffertape.ru)инфо (http://gageboard.ru)инфо (http://gagrule.ru)инфо (http://gallduct.ru)инфо (http://galvanometric.ru)инфо (http://gangforeman.ru)инфо (http://gangwayplatform.ru)инфо (http://garbagechute.ru)
инфо (http://gardeningleave.ru)инфо (http://gascautery.ru)инфо (http://gashbucket.ru)инфо (http://gasreturn.ru)инфо (http://gatedsweep.ru)инфо (http://gaugemodel.ru)инфо (http://gaussianfilter.ru)инфо (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)инфо (http://geartreating.ru)инфо (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)инфо (http://generalprovisions.ru)инфо (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)инфо (http://geriatricnurse.ru)инфо (http://getintoaflap.ru)инфо (http://getthebounce.ru)
инфо (http://habeascorpus.ru)инфо (http://habituate.ru)инфо (http://hackedbolt.ru)инфо (http://hackworker.ru)инфо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)инфо (http://haemagglutinin.ru)инфо (http://hailsquall.ru)инфо (http://hairysphere.ru)инфо (http://halforderfringe.ru)инфо (http://halfsiblings.ru)инфо (http://hallofresidence.ru)инфо (http://haltstate.ru)инфо (http://handcoding.ru)инфо (http://handportedhead.ru)инфо (http://handradar.ru)
инфо (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)инфо (http://hangonpart.ru)инфо (http://haphazardwinding.ru)инфо (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)инфо (http://hardasiron.ru)инфо (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)инфо (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)инфо (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)инфо (http://hatchholddown.ru)инфо (http://haveafinetime.ru)инфо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)инфо (http://headregulator.ru)инфо (http://heartofgold.ru)инфо (http://heatageingresistance.ru)инфо (http://heatinggas.ru)
инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)
инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
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инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)