Federal Workers Earn More Than You!

[Ken]

"According to a study by USA Today, the average salary for federal employees is now about twice the amount that their counterparts in the private sector earn. As of 2009, federal workers earned $123,049 on average, while private workers earned just $61,051."

Nice, huh? :sneaky2:

http://www.mainstreet.com/article/career/federal-workers-earn-more-you

[BLEUXDOG]

If that's true then my check was shorted by about $70,000 give or take a few grand. (mostly take...)

[canid]

that just means that for every you there's some schmo making 140k more than you. nice thought, eh?

[SARKY]

The stats I have are as follows
Army Spec w/ 4 years service $22,000.00
Average private sector worker for the entire USA $50,000.00
Average Civil Servant $73,000.00
Brand new US Senator $174,000.00

NO Cilvil SERVANT should make more than the average private sector worker and NO elected official should make more the the average income of the people they represent.

[mountain1]

i'm new here...but that's old news.
what do you expect?
them stimulus dollars have got to go somewhere.-on paper-
average...

[Camp10]

Yeah but think of the taxes they must pay making that much....:sneaky2: I've heard these numbers before though. I enjoy asking people that work "for us" how much they make...I like watching them squirm a little knowing there is a chance I have the real numbers in hand.

[Rick]

This is really a bit of a double edged sword. You have to remember that the federal government employs a lot of folks in specialized fields. Physics, Law, Aerodynmics, Medicine, Computer Science, etc. Doctorates and MBAs in any field don't come cheap. There are approximately 670,000 professionals and they make up 33% of the federal work force. Another third fall into management and finance.

You also have to factor in that the average age of federal employees is higher than the private sector. That means federal employees have been on the job longer thus are earning more than their civilian counterparts.

Sarky, with respect, I do disagree with you on elected officials' pay. I would not want the lack of pay to turn away good, qualified people and that may well be happening now. Many won't serve because they can make more money else where.

The real problem, IMO, is less with what they make and more with how many are on the payroll. Around 2 million (excluding the Postal System). The largest ever federal work force and the single largest employer in the country. The long term projection is for the Fed to grow.

I'm not certain where USA Today got their numbers but according the Career Guidelines to Industries put out by the Bureau of Labor the average wage is $74,403 (2009 numbers) for all occupations in federal employment and their source is the U.S. Office of Personnel Management. (see Table 5).

http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm#earnings

[randyt]

I'm curious about the senators. how many are millionaires? and how long did it take them to get there after they were first elected? I wonder if the 174 k is just chump change for them once they get their foot in the door.

[Rick]

Well, that's a very good question with a very timely response. The New York Times released that information this morning in an article.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/your-senator-is-probably-a-millionaire/

Most were millionaires prior to running for office either because of family money or from prior private sector earnings. However, a million dollars isn't that hard to accumulate today. You'd be surprised how many millionaires live right around you! Oh, same is true on state legislatures as well.

[Pal334]

I think Rick is correct. I am a retired Fed Civil Service employee. I never earned that much nor did anyone I worked with. At the high level specialities I am certain there are folks that make that kind of money, but when you compare their salaries to a "civilian" peer, their salaries compare on the low side. At the company I consult too, the contracts are administered by Civil Service Phds who earn around 140 -160 K and we are paying (as civilian contractors) our similarly skilled and educated Phds in the 200-250K range. Heck if I had earned that much money when I was a Fed, I would not be consulting in my "old age".

[2dumb2kwit]

Federal Workers Earn More Than You!

Heck...everybody makes more than I do.
For the last two years, the construction business has been so bad, that I'm actually thinking about getting into the restaurant business! LOL

[Justin Case]

Heck...everybody makes more than I do.
For the last two years, the construction business has been so bad, that I'm actually thinking about getting into the restaurant business! LOL

"The Bacon Bistro" ;)

[Rick]

As a side, I think federal employees are receiving a 1.4% raise in 2011. That seems to be pretty much in line with the civilian sector. Now, let's see, 2 million employees times 1.4% pay raise.......

[2dumb2kwit]

As a side, I think federal employees are receiving a 1.4% raise in 2011. That seems to be pretty much in line with the civilian sector. Now, let's see, 2 million employees times 1.4% pay raise.......

Yeah, but look at all the money they saved, by not giving a raise to all those people on social security.

[2dumb2kwit]

"The Bacon Bistro" ;)

Heeeey....I like that! LOL

[Justin Case]

"The Bacon Bistro" ;)


Heeeey....I like that! LOL

or maybe just "Makin Bacon"

[BENESSE]

Or "Shake'nBaconIt"

[2dumb2kwit]

I like the ideas, but I was actually thinking about a little hot dog joint. I was also thinking about having a different soup each day. Mon. veg beef, tues.chili, wed. chicken & dumplin's, etc.
I thought about calling it.....


SOUP 'R DOGS

You know.....like superdogs.

I need someone to draw me a logo. I'm thinking like.....underdog, with an affliction. LOL

[Justin Case]

I like the ideas, but I was actually thinking about a little hot dog joint. I was also thinking about having a different soup each day. Mon. veg beef, tues.chili, wed. chicken & dumplin's, etc.
I thought about calling it.....


SOUP 'R DOGS

You know.....like superdogs.

I need someone to draw me a logo. I'm thinking like.....underdog, with an affliction. LOL
How about a little before and after !
http://www.americanconsumernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/hotdog.jpg http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/magehound/underdog-1.jpg

[Trabitha]

"According to a study by USA Today, the average salary for federal employees is now about twice the amount that their counterparts in the private sector earn. As of 2009, federal workers earned $123,049 on average, while private workers earned just $61,051."

Nice, huh? :sneaky2:

http://www.mainstreet.com/article/career/federal-workers-earn-more-you


I'm with Beck on this one, Ken. There is NO WAY a federal worker or politician should be drawing more in benefits or salary than the men and women who put their lives on the line PROTECTING this country. I think we should push for every politicians (at all levels) salary and benefits to go no HIGHER than a solider. (that's about 23,000.00 a year.) I'm sure that will save us a bundle in raised taxes to pay for their out of control spending.

[Trabitha]

This is really a bit of a double edged sword. You have to remember that the federal government employs a lot of folks in specialized fields. Physics, Law, Aerodynmics, Medicine, Computer Science, etc. Doctorates and MBAs in any field don't come cheap. There are approximately 670,000 professionals and they make up 33% of the federal work force. Another third fall into management and finance.

You also have to factor in that the average age of federal employees is higher than the private sector. That means federal employees have been on the job longer thus are earning more than their civilian counterparts.

Sarky, with respect, I do disagree with you on elected officials' pay. I would not want the lack of pay to turn away good, qualified people and that may well be happening now. Many won't serve because they can make more money else where.

The real problem, IMO, is less with what they make and more with how many are on the payroll. Around 2 million (excluding the Postal System). The largest ever federal work force and the single largest employer in the country. The long term projection is for the Fed to grow.

I'm not certain where USA Today got their numbers but according the Career Guidelines to Industries put out by the Bureau of Labor the average wage is $74,403 (2009 numbers) for all occupations in federal employment and their source is the U.S. Office of Personnel Management. (see Table 5).

http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm#earnings

I'm sorry, Rick...but I've yet to see more than a handful (and that's at a local level mostly) of "good qualified" officials. LOL!! Just sayin'.

They make a bundle and get corrupt because of it. Hell...I don't WANT our officials to want the job for the pay. I want them to want the job because they want to serve and make this country better.

Money corrupts. We know this...and now we've put the most corrupt in positions to take more or OUR money, vote for raises, and vote against pay cuts like the rest of us have to take...and go unchecked.

[BENESSE]

I'm with Beck on this one, Ken. There is NO WAY a federal worker or politician should be drawing more in benefits or salary than the men and women who put their lives on the line PROTECTING this country. I think we should push for every politicians (at all levels) salary and benefits to go no HIGHER than a solider. (that's about 23,000.00 a year.) I'm sure that will save us a bundle in raised taxes to pay for their out of control spending.

T, I share the outrage on many levels but this part is just not realistic. Qualifications, educational background, and experience all matter and should be compensated accordingly. If the politicians aren't doing their job, vote them out of office.

[BENESSE]

Money corrupts. We know this...and now we've put the most corrupt in positions to take more or OUR money, vote for raises, and vote against pay cuts like the rest of us have to take...and go unchecked.

And whose fault is that?!
Seems to me we are more incompetent than they are.

[2dumb2kwit]

And whose fault is that?!
Seems to me we are more incompetent than they are.

That's the part that scares me. No matter how bad polititians are, they have absolutly no power, unless we keep giving it to them......and we keep giving it to them!

Same goes for evil corporations and insurance companies. They have absolutly nothing...unless we give it to them!!!

[Camp10]

T, I share the outrage on many levels but this part is just not realistic. Qualifications, educational background, and experience all matter and should be compensated accordingly. If the politicians aren't doing their job, vote them out of office.

What qualifications make a politician worth more than a soldier? Does being a trial lawyer or having a medical degree make them worth more as a politician? Wouldnt you rather a person who has actually had a budget, vote on our nations? I think the senate and house (and president for that matter) should have the same deal as National Guard..a guarantee that their real job will still be offered to them when they are done serving their country.

You are so very right about one thing though..we just keep giving power to the same group of people and they keep doing the same thing with it. For what its worth, I didnt vote for a single incumbent this past November.

[BENESSE]

Nether did I, Camp.
We need to accept the fact that we were in the minority and minorities of any sort usually aren't that jazzed up about their lot in life. Fortunately we don't live in a dictatorship so if we want something bad enough, we'll find a way to get it. Or else, we didn't want it bad enough.

[Rick]

So, let me get this straight, T. It's okay for professionals employed by the fed to make +100k a year. Right? I'm playing with you because that's what an O6 with +20 years makes. That's a Colonel and about level with a lawyer with +20 years give or take.

You're trying to compare a buck private to a Phd. That's not apples and apples. Military pay goes up to $224k a year at the 2010 rate and they get a 1.4% increase next year.

People seem to think positions of authority are all about money and that money corrupts them. That's completely wrong. It's about power. The power is what garners the money. And a person is corrupt well before they gain the power otherwise the power wouldn't be a problem. A poor moral compass comes first.

[Pal334]

Just keep in mind that Civil Service employees and politicians are two seperate animals. Don'tget them confused when you are thinking this through

[crashdive123]

And whose fault is that?!
Seems to me we are more incompetent than they are.

As long as the moochers in the country have the option to vote for somebody that promises to take from the earners and redistribute to the moochers it will not change. Not until everybody pays their fair share, will the majority of people care about corruption, fraud and waste.

[BENESSE]

...+1, Rick.

[crashdive123]

You really cannot compare military pay, civil service pay and politician pay in general - they just aren't on the same playing field.

[randyt]

As long as the moochers in the country have the option to vote for somebody that promises to take from the earners and redistribute to the moochers it will not change. Not until everybody pays their fair share, will the majority of people care about corruption, fraud and waste.

that works for me.^^^^

[BENESSE]

As long as the moochers in the country have the option to vote for somebody that promises to take from the earners and redistribute to the moochers it will not change. Not until everybody pays their fair share, will the majority of people care about corruption, fraud and waste.

So right. You gotta feel the pain not just hear about it.
Same with fighting unnecessary wars. Until there's a mandatory draft (like Vietnam) people will be content to let other people's kids, moms and dads loose their lives and come back maimed. And forget about them.

[Rick]

There is a quote attributed to Prof. Alexander Frazer Tytler, a Scottish born lawyer and historian. He is quoted as saying,

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

However, he also confessed that democracies produce the highest examples of virtues in people.

In any case, his words ring true to my ear. As long as we vote in those folks willing to do the wrong thing then we should be ready to expect the wrong outcome.

[randyt]

I think the challenge is there is to many them's and not enough we's.

[Rick]

Yeah, about 2 million thems.:eek: The last I checked only 1 me.

[canid]

oh sure; there you go with your incessant individualism... tisk, tisk.

[Rick]

I am all about me aren't I. I would change that in 2011 but since my new year's resolution is to break my resolution it wouldn't do any good.

[Trabitha]

T, I share the outrage on many levels but this part is just not realistic. Qualifications, educational background, and experience all matter and should be compensated accordingly. If the politicians aren't doing their job, vote them out of office.

I think we've proven that it's harder than just voting them out of office. I can say anything I want to say to get voted INTO office, but once I'm in I can DO anything I want. They work for us, yet get paid much MORE than us, while WORKING even LESS than a part time worker. I don't really credit them with their "education" as most of them are lawyers who should BE lawyers, not politicians. There's another issue...why the heck do we keep voting lawyers into office, and then scratching our head in disbelief when they do shading things?

While "voting them out" used to be the exact solution, it's not sufficient. Our elected leaders should never be "getting rich" while they are serving. IMO it's unethical.
Just look at the net worth of most of our politicians (on both sides) before and mid-way through their terms. It's sick.

I'm ALL for making money. I'm all for the rich keeping what they make. I'm not for our politicians benefiting from what they pass while in office.

[Trabitha]

So, let me get this straight, T. It's okay for professionals employed by the fed to make +100k a year. Right? I'm playing with you because that's what an O6 with +20 years makes. That's a Colonel and about level with a lawyer with +20 years give or take.

You're trying to compare a buck private to a Phd. That's not apples and apples. Military pay goes up to $224k a year at the 2010 rate and they get a 1.4% increase next year.

People seem to think positions of authority are all about money and that money corrupts them. That's completely wrong. It's about power. The power is what garners the money. And a person is corrupt well before they gain the power otherwise the power wouldn't be a problem. A poor moral compass comes first.

I never said that, Rick. I don't think that ANY federal employee should make more than the average or even the high end of the general population. A Colonel is not general population, however I don't see the logic in much of that either. I've noticed that those who put most on the line for the country and truly serve, get paid less and are used as "cannon fodder". While a having leaders in the military is important, pay should not be made according to rank but according to what you DID.
For the record, the numbers posted on this thread aren't based on 20+ years of service, but the very first year that the politician "serves" in office. So that's kind of like comparing apples and oranges.

[Trabitha]

There is a quote attributed to Prof. Alexander Frazer Tytler, a Scottish born lawyer and historian. He is quoted as saying,

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

However, he also confessed that democracies produce the highest examples of virtues in people.

In any case, his words ring true to my ear. As long as we vote in those folks willing to do the wrong thing then we should be ready to expect the wrong outcome.


However...we are a Republic...not a Democracy. ;)
"And to the Republic, for which it stands."

[Rick]

I will give you a truth for free. The higher you go in an organization, the less work you do and the more money you get paid. At some point you are not being paid for your brawn but for your brain. Generals are not paid to fight. They are paid to think.

As to Republic, the distinction not withstanding, the quote still applies. If you read his actual works he felt the same way or worse about Republics. He considered a Republic the base of a monarchy. I'm not quoting him of course but the reference was there.

[Justin Case]

However...we are a Republic...not a Democracy. ;)
"And to the Republic, for which it stands."
This quote is from page two here > http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1749628/is_our_constitution_democratic.html?cat=9

Everyday before classes begin in all levels of schooling around the United States the students are told to recite the pledge of allegiance. "And to the republic for which it stands..." not masking the fact
that our nation was in fact founded as a Republic. James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10 explains that the US government is based on the concept of a Republic representing the people. This does not necessarily break the definition of being democratic if the people are accurately and equally being represented by a large number of representatives. If the numbers of representatives elected reflect the popular vote than this system would, by the previously stated definition, be democratic. The formation of The Senate has created a system in which the people are not being accurately represented.

[2dumb2kwit]

I think we've proven that it's harder than just voting them out of office. I can say anything I want to say to get voted INTO office, but once I'm in I can DO anything I want. They work for us, yet get paid much MORE than us, while WORKING even LESS than a part time worker. I don't really credit them with their "education" as most of them are lawyers who should BE lawyers, not politicians. There's another issue...why the heck do we keep voting lawyers into office, and then scratching our head in disbelief when they do shading things?

While "voting them out" used to be the exact solution, it's not sufficient. Our elected leaders should never be "getting rich" while they are serving. IMO it's unethical.
Just look at the net worth of most of our politicians (on both sides) before and mid-way through their terms. It's sick.

I'm ALL for making money. I'm all for the rich keeping what they make. I'm not for our politicians benefiting from what they pass while in office.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're fixating on the drip and not seeing the tidal wave.

[randyt]

what exactly is a term? I do know the "proper" definition. some of these guys have been in there since the korean war.

"Just look at the net worth of most of our politicians (on both sides) before and mid-way through their terms. It's sick."

what is the tidal wave?

[2dumb2kwit]

what exactly is a term? I do know the "proper" definition. some of these guys have been in there since the korean war.

"Just look at the net worth of most of our politicians (on both sides) before and mid-way through their terms. It's sick."

what is the tidal wave?

Well....you could look at all the staff and expenses for each politician, but really, I was referring to the wasteful spending.

[randyt]

thanks, I was thinking the other day that their salary was probably chump change compared to their expense account.

[2dumb2kwit]

thanks, I was thinking the other day that their salary was probably chump change compared to their expense account.

And think about it....dudes pi$$in' away billions of our dollars, and we're gonna focus on his salary being $150K vs. $75K? Really?

[2dumb2kwit]

thanks, I was thinking the other day that their salary was probably chump change compared to their expense account.

I think it was Newt, who said that in '08 Senator Obama's office had a budget of $4.5 million, with 69 employees.

[randyt]

wow, that's crazy.

[2dumb2kwit]

wow, that's crazy.

Here is what's crazy......A bunch of politicians get together and decide to spend a trillion dollars, on a "stimulus" package. We won't get into the politics of who did what, or did it work, but everyone should realize that they spent our money. (Actually, money that we will have to repay.) Also, everyone should realize that a trillion dollars is one million dollars, times one million.

Here is what that would look like.

http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

[randyt]

I've often wondered if they would have divided all the stimulus package up and sent a equal share to every head of household what impact that would have had on the economy?

[2dumb2kwit]

I've often wondered if they would have divided all the stimulus package up and sent a equal share to every head of household what impact that would have had on the economy?

Well, let's see.......that would be about $3,300 for every man, woman, and child in the country....so for a family of 4, that would be a little over $13,000.

The bad news, is that not only did your family of 4 not get it, you are going to have to pay that $13,000 that they spent. (Well.....someone will have to pay it.)

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

I've often wondered if they would have divided all the stimulus package up and sent a equal share to every head of household what impact that would have had on the economy?

Well with the US population at roughly 310 million people, 1 trillion would average out to be $3225.80 per person.

[randyt]

am curious how many head of households there are in the u.s.

I wonder if the stimulus would have been distributed that way instead of the way it was if the results would have been more positive.

[Batch]

He was close enough. We have to pay the interest as well.

[rebel]

Well with the US population at roughly 310 million people, 1 trillion would average out to be $3225.80 per person.

Well, since only about half'er paying , I guess you can double that.

[Rick]

I think it was Newt, who said that in '08 Senator Obama's office had a budget of $4.5 million, with 69 employees.

If that's accurate, that's not very much money. When I was manager of an I.T. group I had a staff of 18 and an office budget of approximately $3.5 million. My development budget was $65 million annually. So I think that number might be way low unless he was just counting payroll, bonuses, expense accounts and incidentals.

If you think about the White House you have to consider maintenance of the building and grounds, utilities, security equipment (sensors, cameras, weapons, etc.), salaries, state entertainment, travel.

Rep. Henry Waxman assessed the President's travel at $56,518 per hour to fly Air Force One and $6,960 per hour to fly the accompanying cargo planes. Those were 2006 figures.



am curious how many head of households there are in the u.s.

If you are looking at the tax paying aspect the U.S. Census bureau projects 105.4 million total households in the U.S. based on the 2000 census. Since the latest U.S. census was just performed this year those numbers are not yet available.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

[randyt]

Hey Rick,

what is a I.T. group? I don't want to know if it means I have to done away with LOL.

[Rick]

Information Technology

[BENESSE]

The two clients I'm managing creatively spend 55 mil. only on their advertising. There are 14 people working on those two accounts exclusively with extra help as needed.
The agency has way more clients, and way more people working on their business. Two 30 sec. commercials we just shot a few months ago cost 1+ mil each. You'll probably change the channel when they play (hope not) but the client is ecstatic. And so it goes.
Everything is relative.

[Rick]

When you see some exorbitant (in your opinion) amount of money being spent on X it's generally a good idea to investigate why. Often times you'll find that much more is being covered by that money than first meets the eye or the criteria for the product was so stringent that it required that level of outlay. That's not always the case and there are certainly excesses but a few minutes of investigation can usually determine which you are dealing with. When I first took over that IT group all it took was requesting an itemized bill from a vendor to reduce my expenditures by $250k per quarter. Seems they had a little trouble figuring out where that money was being spent.

$200 toilet seats make good press but if you look at the requirements you might just find that it really did cost that.

[Trabitha]

I will give you a truth for free. The higher you go in an organization, the less work you do and the more money you get paid. At some point you are not being paid for your brawn but for your brain. Generals are not paid to fight. They are paid to think.

As to Republic, the distinction not withstanding, the quote still applies. If you read his actual works he felt the same way or worse about Republics. He considered a Republic the base of a monarchy. I'm not quoting him of course but the reference was there.

That's the problem. Our government is not an organization. They are supposed to be "serving" and for decades now, they haven't even been able to do that. You simply can not compare government to business. Politicians aren't supposed to be making money off of those they are put in place to serve. However, in a state that is bankrupt, their Senator's net worth is in the 10's of millions. Why is she drawing a paycheck from those tax payers?? Certainly not because she's "earned" it. Greed.

If our leaders are or have become independently wealthy on their watch, the proper thing to do would be what was done a couple of years ago by private business and vow to take only a 1.00 a year as pay until the situation is rectified. ;)

[Trabitha]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're fixating on the drip and not seeing the tidal wave.

This just happens to be one subject that I "fixate" on...and only being discussed because this drip is the only topic on this thread. There are many other issues out there today that need to be addressed, but as Ken pointed out...our leaders are getting rich on their watch and our country is failing because of it. There are billions of dollars in spending that can be cut, however IMO a good way to show the masses that they really DO care, is to cut their own inflated paychecks and the corruption in the system because we allow them to MAKE money while they are supposed to be serving. Having a multi-million million dollar net worth, STILL draw a paycheck from the tax payers...while holding the title of "civil servant". Does that not sound like an oxy-moron to you?

[BENESSE]

IMO a good way to show the masses that they really DO care, is to cut their own inflated paychecks
That'll never happen, so don't loose sleep over it.
and the corruption in the system because we allow them to MAKE money while they are supposed to be serving.
Shame on us!
Having a multi-million million dollar net worth, STILL draw a paycheck from the tax payers...while holding the title of "civil servant".
It's still a paying job, not a volunteer position. When we change it to that, we can see who steps up to the plate.
Does that not sound like an oxy-moron to you?

Actually it doesn't sound like an oxymoron to me .
I think we are morons for electing people we don't respect to an office we don't hold accountable.
Mayor Bloomberg, who has always worked for $1/yr, is an exception and people still have a problem with him. I don't. That's a true civil servant, if you really need to know what one looks like.

[Trabitha]

Well, I think the 'it will never happen' mentality is one of the biggest problems that we have right now. Call me an optimist, but I don't think we should assume that we are stuck in our own muck and stop fighting for what is right. ;)

You're right! Shame on us. That kind of goes hand in hand with my above comment.

Agreed, we have totally become the morons and complacent in regard to our elected officials. Hell, I live in one of the most corrupt local political areas in the country right now, and the idiots out here keep voting them into office. We ALL saw how Frank and Pelosi got back into office, regardless of the clear damage they caused. There are far too many people out there with their hands extended and regardless of corruption, the person who delivers will get their vote.

I agree! Regardless of what people don't like about Bloomberg, he is TRULY a civil servant. That's exactly my point. We need more people like that in office. Politics needs to stop being about wealth and go back to be about serving. There are plenty of people that would be more than willing to run (just like the military) even if the pay weren't astronomical. I think the problem is that unless you're a lawyer, your opinion doesn't matter to the masses in this country. It's become clear that a legal degree makes your opinion of the country valid, and all others are stupid and should keep quiet.

I think that's why you don't see more people...good people...with their hearts in the right place...running for office.
I find that to be sad. :(

Hey!! So I was watching on the news today that NY is STILL digging out? We didn't get a lick of snow here. Okay...I lie...we got a lick. That was it. Other than that, we just got slammed by the wind. (Ripped my darn ridge-vent off my roof!!) How are things out your way? It's dangerous not having the roads cleared...what happened? This storm wasn't remotely as bad as some of the others we've had in the past couple of years.

[SARKY]

I have heard many of talk about money and corruption. Do any of remember the argument that the politicians used to get their revolving annual pay raise? It was this, I prevent politicians from being enticed by bribes and money, they should be paid more. Gee how didi that work out for us? ANY pay and benefits that any and all elected officials and civil SERVANTS recieve should be voted on by the people. At the federal level, only the 49 other states should vote on the salary of the 50th. It has to do with the stupid voter who thinks that all the other politicians are bad but mine is good. ALL government unions shall be ABOLISHED! And why should any civil servant get benefits above those available in the private sector.
While we are at it why hasn't there been an investigation into the massive increase in wealth acumulated by our sitting representatives?

[SARKY]

I will give you a truth for free. The higher you go in an organization, the less work you do and the more money you get paid. At some point you are not being paid for your brawn but for your brain. Generals are not paid to fight. They are paid to think.

As to Republic, the distinction not withstanding, the quote still applies. If you read his actual works he felt the same way or worse about Republics. He considered a Republic the base of a monarchy. I'm not quoting him of course but the reference was there.

First off Rick, "politician" was never meant to be a job describtion in uor Republic. It is supposed to be "Statesman". There is a subtle by distinct difference between the 2. The statesman does the job because he is needed to do it not because he wants to. A statesman has a job already and plans on going back to it when his/her term is up, not milk the people for the next 40+ years.

[BENESSE]

Hey!! So I was watching on the news today that NY is STILL digging out? We didn't get a lick of snow here. Okay...I lie...we got a lick. That was it. Other than that, we just got slammed by the wind. (Ripped my darn ridge-vent off my roof!!) How are things out your way? It's dangerous not having the roads cleared...what happened? This storm wasn't remotely as bad as some of the others we've had in the past couple of years.


Balls were dropped left and right. A lot of finger pointing. Mayor's ticked and so are a lot of people.
Despite the winter storm watch forecast, administration officials decided not to declare a citywide snow emergency.

That meant people were allowed to leave their cars parked on major streets and the sanitation officials, charged with clearing streets, were short-staffed due to Christmas and stuck with newbie drivers overwhelmed by the blizzard.

Here's what amazed me: how many people just waited helplessly for someone from the city to dig them out instead of getting a shovel and doing it themselves. Who cares, who's supposed to do what...if you need something done now, do it yourself, is my way of thinking. Where's the camaraderie, the can do spirit? Instead of all the able bodied neighbors on any given side street getting out and doing their part, they just cleared a bit in front of their front door and bellyached about the rest.

[BENESSE]

First off Rick, "politician" was never meant to be a job describtion in uor Republic. It is supposed to be "Statesman". There is a subtle by distinct difference between the 2. The statesman does the job because he is needed to do it not because he wants to. A statesman has a job already and plans on going back to it when his/her term is up, not milk the people for the next 40+ years.

The job offers a salary. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does.
It's the majority of, fill-in-the-blank, who choose to re-elect their "statesmen" for 40+ years because there's nothing that prevents them from doing so. Institute term limits, and you'll have at least part of the problem solved.

[SARKY]

So, let me get this straight, T. It's okay for professionals employed by the fed to make +100k a year. Right? I'm playing with you because that's what an O6 with +20 years makes. That's a Colonel and about level with a lawyer with +20 years give or take.

You're trying to compare a buck private to a Phd. That's not apples and apples. Military pay goes up to $224k a year at the 2010 rate and they get a 1.4% increase next year.

People seem to think positions of authority are all about money and that money corrupts them. That's completely wrong. It's about power. The power is what garners the money. And a person is corrupt well before they gain the power otherwise the power wouldn't be a problem. A poor moral compass comes first.


Rick, youv'e missed the point yet again. You speak of experience and education like they are the be all and end all, They are NOT! They are not even a decient yard stick with which to measure with. Look at our military right now, we are by all standards under manned BUT we do have more admirals than ships in the Navy. How is that a benefit? If I were to compare this situation to any other in history, it would be to the french military at the outbreak of WWII. The old guard is in control and won't give it up.
To add to that, When clinton downsized the military, who do you think they got rid of????? Was it the senior officers and enlisted with more than 20 sometimes 30 years in? NO! It was the up and comming young turks who couldn't advance any further because these old farts refused to retire.
Based on experience, previous job performance and all the other factors, how was Obama even qualified to run for president let alone be president????
The comparisson was between an E-4 with 4 years experience and a brand new (never served before) congressman NOT an O-6 with 20+years. If you want to make comparissons make them apples to apples.

[SARKY]

Sarky, with respect, I do disagree with you on elected officials' pay. I would not want the lack of pay to turn away good, qualified people and that may well be happening now. Many won't serve because they can make more money else where.

IF we were getting good people, I wouldn't have an argument with you. BUT if that is their only motivation then they can take their butts else where to earn a living. I don't want them representing me!

[crashdive123]

Some still do it because they see a need for their talents. The new Governor in Florida will not be taking a salary. Grantrd, there may not be too many willing - or able to do that, but there are some.

[Pocomoonskyeyes3]

Well I think part of the problem is the people that are running for office perception of the Job. They see it as a "Career" Not as an opportunity to help the nation (most but not all politicians). Another reason I believe "Better people" DON'T run is the "Stigma" attached with being a politician in the first place. It is my opinion they see politicians as a "Necessary evil" and as they are perceived as "evil", Good Honest folk don't want that label attached to them. One of the worst names you could call me is "Politician". To me, it is worse than anything I've ever been called. (I've been called some pretty bad things too!)

I tend to think of most politicians (unless they prove otherwise) to be just a bunch of Bernie Madoff's with a different title and a far greater chance of NOT being caught. Sure there are "scandals" but instead of jail they are allowed to get off usually with a little reprimand. Just think what the crime rate would be like if LEO's said "Oh so you have a drug habit to support? How about I help you take that TV to the Pawnshop?" That's kind of what the consequences are if you are a politician caught doing wrong. Sure, Blagojevich, got caught but mainly because he made other politicians mad and afraid of the public opinion. Really though other than Blago, most politicians face little if any consequence for their actions.
Many on here and some other places say "why can't the welfare folks do their fair share?" Well look at what they have as Role models in office. Junk in, Junk out. They are just emulating the elected officials. Monkey see, monkey do, and all of that.

[Rick]

Holy cow. Where do I begin? Let's start with T.

Sorry, but the government is an organization. Absolutely no different than the private sector when it comes the skill sets required to run it. President or CEO matters not. There is no rule or law that prevents an elected official from owning a blind trust and making a profit at it. I see nothing wrong with it and would do the same if I were in that position. And you won't find anyone with a stronger moral compass than me. You're insinuation is that all became millionaires while in office and made the money by illegal means. It just isn't true.

I have no idea which Senator you are referencing since there are 17 women Senators and most states are bankrupt. Post a name and let's see where her money came from. Easy enough to do since their filings are public record.

Sarky - Sorry, my friend, but it's not me that missed the point. First, you inferred education and experience are the be all end all. I never said that although I must confess that if you don't have knowledge or experience on a given subject then you are pretty much useless in that particular capacity. But be that as it may, I simply pulled the highest paid officer class out of the payroll as an example to T that there are folks in the military making in excess of $100k per year and you can't compare the $23,000 a year an enlisted man makes with someone from the Judge Advocate General's office or an MD that is serving somewhere in the VA. Her statement was, "I think we should push for every politicians (at all levels) salary and benefits to go no HIGHER than a solider. (that's about 23,000.00 a year.)" The fact is military salaries go much higher. Hope that is clear enough.


"politician" was never meant to be a job description in our Republic.

Source, please.


young turks who couldn't advance any further because these old farts refused to retire.

What an interesting door you just opened. Are you prepared to quit your job today so someone younger than you and unemployed can have it? Same thing.

I have no disagreement on the term statesman. They would all be so if I could wave a magic wand. Richard Holbrooke is probably the last true statesman and we just lost him. But let's put that aside. Let's assign a salary of $0 to every political office just for the sake of discussion. How many well qualified, independent thinkers will walk away and never spend time in political office simply because they can not afford to? Imagine the talent we would loose. Men and women alike. You post as if there were no decent politicians and that's just not true.

To all: When you speak so negatively about politicians at every level you really need to ask yourself a couple of rhetorical questions. 1. Did you vote? 2. Are you willing to serve? If you answer NO to either of those questions then you really have no platform on which to speak.

We do have to be ever vigilant because there are less than ethical people out there. But they do have the light of day shed on them. Rep. Rangel being the latest one.

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